Guest guest Posted June 9, 2002 Report Share Posted June 9, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > , ErcAshfrd@a... wrote: > > Dear Dan, Zenbob and Jody, > > > > So you won't even surrender wholeheartedly to a sweet little old > lady like > > Amma? > > > > What a pity. :-) > > > > love > > > > eric "Never give up, never surrender!" --Tim Allen (As Captain in "Galaxy Quest." >>>>>>> Actually, well, let me think about this...a minute... The answer is still no, I don't think so. I surrender myself to the Divine All...but never to other people. As it is, I have lived well by NOT surrendering to others--such as doctors, attorneys, city managers, et al., who always present themselves as expert in handling your affairs, particularly the mnost intimate and life impacting ones. My doctor was stunned into near speechlessness when I refused to give permission Carte Blanche for him to perform whatever surgical procedure he deemed necessary if he found condition "X" or "Y" whilst conducting his tests. I gave him detailed step by step instructions on what I would approve and exactly what he was forbidden to do. It has kept me alive. Recent studies in Europe and the US have validated every concern that I had. Sometimes we must rig our own sails, learn to tack into the wind as necessary and find our own wise counsel. If we make "mistakes" that is part of the journey to wisdom--it never comes easy. As for the nice old lady thing--well, sure that's just dandy, but nice old ladies run over pedestrians all the time--and the "intent" never alters the results. She might be nice and loving, but keep in mind that there are literally millions of nice, loving, kind, and publicity avoiding Senior Ladies who are devouted to their grandchildren, neighbor kids and do wonderful community work, whilst keeping a very low profile. Somehow, that seems just as worthy of emulation and study as the Wise Lady in the Ashram, who also happens to be taking in a rather lucrative income by playing the part of Wise Loving Lady. Hey, many gurus start with utmost sincerity then begin to believe their own publicity ads. Therein lies the delusion of maya. And then trying to convince others of this "special level of attainment" I think is actually the worst offense. Listen to Harsha. This is a loving, kind man, who is the embodiment of good sense, humor, generosity and never asks for anything in return except that we be kind and respectful to one another, share our insights and keep him entertained (well there is that requirement of applying the Cosmic Deodorant to his Divine Armpits, thing...but that is a small price to pay, given the Divine Effluvia that he shares with his devotees). I'd love to have lunch someday with Amma, and would not mind brewing the tea, or even helping her carry her things to the car, buggy, flying carpet, or whatever, but she can take a few moments to listen to my poetry and writing projects, if I take time to listen to her discuss her projects, too. Sorry if I sound so human. Ooops...that right, I am. I recall the time when I attended a Darshan being held by Swami Muktananda in Santa Monica, California in the 1980's. He was "feathering" devotees with his plume as a special blessing to those "fortunate ones" who had access to his "special connection with the divine" thru the God Aspect of Shiva. He privately warned us that "California was about to suffer a great calamity and that large parts of it could fall from the continent into the Pacific Ocean. Some of my dearest friends at that time decided to relocate to Arizona, where it would be safe. There they lost their business income, contracted Valley fever and suffered miserably, but faithfully waiting for the demise of California. At the time of the Swami's warning, I had shocked my devoted friends by replying to him, "I would be careful, Swami. It is more likely that it could be you that falls from the continent." He died only a few months after this Darshan. California is still here, even if it is shaky. Did the kind Swami Muktananda not have millions of devoted followers convinced of his special loving attainments? Of course he did. Did they learn anything of value in exchange for giving up most of their material wealth? Maybe. At least they learned that they should not give up all of their material wealth to Gurus, or move out of state because of their "special connection" with the divine. If I wish to know the Love of the Divine--I go to the source. If I want advise on earthquakes, I listen to my animals, who are far more sensitive at predicting such things than people. If you need your car repaired, go to a car mechanic, not a guru. If you need dental work, by all means find a good dentist. Always remember, or be mindful that the world is filled with wise and loving people who have no need of devotees. That in itself should be a very good lesson. Blessings, Love, Zenbob (Lecturing his goats on the Wisdom of the Idiots, as conveyed by Idries Shah, stories and tales of the Sufis.) Hey, I am sure that new Doe, Trudy Penguin really has appreciated this Sufi teaching. I am advancing her to the next more elite class for Adept Goats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2002 Report Share Posted June 9, 2002 So you cannot share a giving moment with an old lady? What a pity. I once surrendered to a ducks ass. It was a nice ducks ass and was sticking out of the water as it fed on the pond bottom. Maybe you would be more comfortable surrendering to a goat? Please do check goat for financial irregularities and opinions about maya first. You never know, it may have past driving offences and consider all such error as your delusion, and you may not be insured for such. How can you surrender to the divine All, without surrendering to the divine All? You think someone is going to steal something from you. And you are right. love eric , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > , ErcAshfrd@a... wrote: > > Dear Dan, Zenbob and Jody, > > > > So you won't even surrender wholeheartedly to a sweet little old > lady like > > Amma? > > > > What a pity. :-) > > > > love > > > > eric "Never give up, never surrender!" --Tim Allen (As Captain in "Galaxy Quest." >>>>>>> Actually, well, let me think about this...a minute... The answer is still no, I don't think so. I surrender myself to the Divine All...but never to other people. As it is, I have lived well by NOT surrendering to others--such as doctors, attorneys, city managers, et al., who always present themselves as expert in handling your affairs, particularly the mnost intimate and life impacting ones. My doctor was stunned into near speechlessness when I refused to give permission Carte Blanche for him to perform whatever surgical procedure he deemed necessary if he found condition "X" or "Y" whilst conducting his tests. I gave him detailed step by step instructions on what I would approve and exactly what he was forbidden to do. It has kept me alive. Recent studies in Europe and the US have validated every concern that I had. Sometimes we must rig our own sails, learn to tack into the wind as necessary and find our own wise counsel. If we make "mistakes" that is part of the journey to wisdom--it never comes easy. As for the nice old lady thing--well, sure that's just dandy, but nice old ladies run over pedestrians all the time--and the "intent" never alters the results. She might be nice and loving, but keep in mind that there are literally millions of nice, loving, kind, and publicity avoiding Senior Ladies who are devouted to their grandchildren, neighbor kids and do wonderful community work, whilst keeping a very low profile. Somehow, that seems just as worthy of emulation and study as the Wise Lady in the Ashram, who also happens to be taking in a rather lucrative income by playing the part of Wise Loving Lady. Hey, many gurus start with utmost sincerity then begin to believe their own publicity ads. Therein lies the delusion of maya. And then trying to convince others of this "special level of attainment" I think is actually the worst offense. Listen to Harsha. This is a loving, kind man, who is the embodiment of good sense, humor, generosity and never asks for anything in return except that we be kind and respectful to one another, share our insights and keep him entertained (well there is that requirement of applying the Cosmic Deodorant to his Divine Armpits, thing...but that is a small price to pay, given the Divine Effluvia that he shares with his devotees). I'd love to have lunch someday with Amma, and would not mind brewing the tea, or even helping her carry her things to the car, buggy, flying carpet, or whatever, but she can take a few moments to listen to my poetry and writing projects, if I take time to listen to her discuss her projects, too. Sorry if I sound so human. Ooops...that right, I am. I recall the time when I attended a Darshan being held by Swami Muktananda in Santa Monica, California in the 1980's. He was "feathering" devotees with his plume as a special blessing to those "fortunate ones" who had access to his "special connection with the divine" thru the God Aspect of Shiva. He privately warned us that "California was about to suffer a great calamity and that large parts of it could fall from the continent into the Pacific Ocean. Some of my dearest friends at that time decided to relocate to Arizona, where it would be safe. There they lost their business income, contracted Valley fever and suffered miserably, but faithfully waiting for the demise of California. At the time of the Swami's warning, I had shocked my devoted friends by replying to him, "I would be careful, Swami. It is more likely that it could be you that falls from the continent." He died only a few months after this Darshan. California is still here, even if it is shaky. Did the kind Swami Muktananda not have millions of devoted followers convinced of his special loving attainments? Of course he did. Did they learn anything of value in exchange for giving up most of their material wealth? Maybe. At least they learned that they should not give up all of their material wealth to Gurus, or move out of state because of their "special connection" with the divine. If I wish to know the Love of the Divine--I go to the source. If I want advise on earthquakes, I listen to my animals, who are far more sensitive at predicting such things than people. If you need your car repaired, go to a car mechanic, not a guru. If you need dental work, by all means find a good dentist. Always remember, or be mindful that the world is filled with wise and loving people who have no need of devotees. That in itself should be a very good lesson. Blessings, Love, Zenbob (Lecturing his goats on the Wisdom of the Idiots, as conveyed by Idries Shah, stories and tales of the Sufis.) Hey, I am sure that new Doe, Trudy Penguin really has appreciated this Sufi teaching. I am advancing her to the next more elite class for Adept Goats. /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2002 Report Share Posted June 9, 2002 on 6/9/02 8:10 AM, zen2wrk (AT) aol (DOT) com at zen2wrk (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: "Never give up, never surrender!" --Tim Allen (As Captain in "Galaxy Quest." >>>>>>> Actually, well, let me think about this...a minute... The answer is still no, I don't think so. I surrender myself to the Divine All...but never to other people. ===================== .......it is more like you *cannot* surrender period. *you* can do it only in complete selfless love, but even then you cannot say you *did* it. It has already been done, always being done. If anything can be said to be happening at all, it is this. The ducks butt will not hug you back, and the little old lady who is not accustomed to hugging strangers may have you arrested, so one makes intelligent choices. Service can be an expression of love and surrender or it can be a stategic act. Of course you should not surrender to an idiot, these are people who claim that All is divine and yet no one is, but if you've found that it has already happened, then what's the problem? When a fool says that an enlightened being and a seeker are the same, it is not true. But when an enlightened one says it, it is a gift. namaste, Shawn =========================== As it is, I have lived well by NOT surrendering to others--such as doctors, attorneys, city managers, et al., who always present themselves as expert in handling your affairs, particularly the mnost intimate and life impacting ones. My doctor was stunned into near speechlessness when I refused to give permission Carte Blanche for him to perform whatever surgical procedure he deemed necessary if he found condition "X" or "Y" whilst conducting his tests. I gave him detailed step by step instructions on what I would approve and exactly what he was forbidden to do. It has kept me alive. Recent studies in Europe and the US have validated every concern that I had. Sometimes we must rig our own sails, learn to tack into the wind as necessary and find our own wise counsel. If we make "mistakes" that is part of the journey to wisdom--it never comes easy. As for the nice old lady thing--well, sure that's just dandy, but nice old ladies run over pedestrians all the time--and the "intent" never alters the results. She might be nice and loving, but keep in mind that there are literally millions of nice, loving, kind, and publicity avoiding Senior Ladies who are devouted to their grandchildren, neighbor kids and do wonderful community work, whilst keeping a very low profile. Somehow, that seems just as worthy of emulation and study as the Wise Lady in the Ashram, who also happens to be taking in a rather lucrative income by playing the part of Wise Loving Lady. Hey, many gurus start with utmost sincerity then begin to believe their own publicity ads. Therein lies the delusion of maya. And then trying to convince others of this "special level of attainment" I think is actually the worst offense. Listen to Harsha. This is a loving, kind man, who is the embodiment of good sense, humor, generosity and never asks for anything in return except that we be kind and respectful to one another, share our insights and keep him entertained (well there is that requirement of applying the Cosmic Deodorant to his Divine Armpits, thing...but that is a small price to pay, given the Divine Effluvia that he shares with his devotees). I'd love to have lunch someday with Amma, and would not mind brewing the tea, or even helping her carry her things to the car, buggy, flying carpet, or whatever, but she can take a few moments to listen to my poetry and writing projects, if I take time to listen to her discuss her projects, too. Sorry if I sound so human. Ooops...that right, I am. I recall the time when I attended a Darshan being held by Swami Muktananda in Santa Monica, California in the 1980's. He was "feathering" devotees with his plume as a special blessing to those "fortunate ones" who had access to his "special connection with the divine" thru the God Aspect of Shiva. He privately warned us that "California was about to suffer a great calamity and that large parts of it could fall from the continent into the Pacific Ocean. Some of my dearest friends at that time decided to relocate to Arizona, where it would be safe. There they lost their business income, contracted Valley fever and suffered miserably, but faithfully waiting for the demise of California. At the time of the Swami's warning, I had shocked my devoted friends by replying to him, "I would be careful, Swami. It is more likely that it could be you that falls from the continent." He died only a few months after this Darshan. California is still here, even if it is shaky. Did the kind Swami Muktananda not have millions of devoted followers convinced of his special loving attainments? Of course he did. Did they learn anything of value in exchange for giving up most of their material wealth? Maybe. At least they learned that they should not give up all of their material wealth to Gurus, or move out of state because of their "special connection" with the divine. If I wish to know the Love of the Divine--I go to the source. If I want advise on earthquakes, I listen to my animals, who are far more sensitive at predicting such things than people. If you need your car repaired, go to a car mechanic, not a guru. If you need dental work, by all means find a good dentist. Always remember, or be mindful that the world is filled with wise and loving people who have no need of devotees. That in itself should be a very good lesson. Blessings, Love, Zenbob (Lecturing his goats on the Wisdom of the Idiots, as conveyed by Idries Shah, stories and tales of the Sufis.) Hey, I am sure that new Doe, Trudy Penguin really has appreciated this Sufi teaching. I am advancing her to the next more elite class for Adept Goats. /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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