Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Hi Everybody: Something to keep in mind I think. II Peter, Chapter 2 1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Hi Bobby G. You wrote: >>> Something to keep in mind I think.<<< >>> II Peter, Chapter 2... [snip] <<< With all due respect, Bobby, and believe me, I have no chip on my shoulder regarding the "good message" (eu-angelia) of christianity, but the words in "II Peter, Chapter 2" I shall not keep in mind... definitely not... Just check them out...: >>> [snip] ...false... [snip]... false teachers ...[snip]... damnable heresies ...[snip]... bring upon themselves swift destruction ...[snip]... pernicious ways ...[snip]... evil ...[snip]... <<< Does all that not come down to, "If you don't follow our way of leading you to liberation you will be damned, or if not that, you will be sorry." ? Getting people on "a bandwagon to freedom" is not the way... if getting people on any bandwagon is a way to go at all. Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Thank you, Wim. Yes, me with an overemphasis on protecting you from "false" authorities may well be a way to set myself up as the authority you need on what is true. How is one then to protect oneself against one's protector? :-) It is quite an assumption to make, not just that I have a self, but that I have a self which could know what is true and false, for all selves and not just this self. But once the self has been assumed, it must protect itself, and what better way to protect itself than by becoming the protector of all selves? Love, Dan > Hi Bobby G. > > You wrote: > >>> Something to keep in mind I think.<<< > >>> II Peter, Chapter 2... [snip] <<< > > With all due respect, Bobby, and believe me, I have no chip on my shoulder > regarding the "good message" (eu-angelia) of christianity, but the words in > "II Peter, Chapter 2" I shall not keep in mind... definitely not... > > Just check them out...: > > >>> [snip] ...false... [snip]... false teachers ...[snip]... damnable > heresies ...[snip]... bring upon themselves swift destruction ... [snip]... > pernicious ways ...[snip]... evil ...[snip]... <<< > > Does all that not come down to, "If you don't follow our way of leading you > to liberation you will be damned, or if not that, you will be sorry." ? > > Getting people on "a bandwagon to freedom" is not the way... if getting > people on any bandwagon is a way to go at all. > > Wim > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Hello Wimji: Peter wrote;II Peter, Chapter 2 1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. Peter is talking to his flock telling them of people in their own midst who lie to them and distort the word for their own purposes. A very reasonable exhortation. some people cannot keep from promoting themselves at the expense of the truth. The message is worthy. , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Bobby G. > > You wrote: > >>> Something to keep in mind I think.<<< > >>> II Peter, Chapter 2... [snip] <<< > > With all due respect, Bobby, and believe me, I have no chip on my shoulder > regarding the "good message" (eu-angelia) of christianity, but the words in > "II Peter, Chapter 2" I shall not keep in mind... definitely not... > > Just check them out...: > > >>> [snip] ...false... [snip]... false teachers ...[snip]... damnable > heresies ...[snip]... bring upon themselves swift destruction ... [snip]... > pernicious ways ...[snip]... evil ...[snip]... <<< > > Does all that not come down to, "If you don't follow our way of leading you > to liberation you will be damned, or if not that, you will be sorry." ? No. To those verses must be added the historical info people are so inclined to remember about predjudices of the Church to come up with your interpretation. A man as intelligent in the ways of the world as yourself knows this. I can only assume you left out the entire text to serve your own theory instead of the truth. In my opinion your use of the word liberation is designed to take away the meaning of the verses. It is a beautiful word but you misused it. > > Getting people on "a bandwagon to freedom" is not the way... if getting > people on any bandwagon is a way to go at all. > > Wim I do not want to argue with you. Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Hi Bobby, I understand your message.., of course I do.., and I appreciate your intent and motive... Hmmm... These kind of passages though (from Peter, Paul or whomever) - in their origin - very often spring forth from more dubious motivations and intentions (and you know that I don't mean that personally)... This particular biblical (?) passage is a good example. There was, in the years after Jesus' demise (which does not necessarily mean death) quite a 'succession' feud going on between the recipients of Jesus' 'good tiding of joy'. There were specifically two groups: (1) the 'family or bloodline group' around Mary the Magdalene (Jesus' companion or spouse), Mary (Jesus' mother) and John (Jesus' beloved and protector of the two Marys) and (2) the 'disciples group' originally around Peter and Judas. These two disciples especially, had always been envious of the other group's physical closeness to Jesus. There are extant texts, dated older than the heavily edited version of 'approved' new testamental writings that give evidence of this. The vituperative in the quoted passages, the polemics, had specifically to do with that feud, superciliously leading us away from the original 'good tiding' from that human divine messenger that JC was... Ah, politics... the language of the feud, words, words, words. Words deviating from and eventually obliterating the original message. Wim Something behind this message is worthy, the message itself deviates from an opportunity to apply love, there where it counts texasbg2000 [bigbobgraham] Tuesday, June 11, 2002 6:34 AM Re: Peter Hello Wimji: Peter wrote;II Peter, Chapter 2 1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. Peter is talking to his flock telling them of people in their own midst who lie to them and distort the word for their own purposes. A very reasonable exhortation. some people cannot keep from promoting themselves at the expense of the truth. The message is worthy. , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Bobby G. > > You wrote: > >>> Something to keep in mind I think.<<< > >>> II Peter, Chapter 2... [snip] <<< > > With all due respect, Bobby, and believe me, I have no chip on my shoulder > regarding the "good message" (eu-angelia) of christianity, but the words in > "II Peter, Chapter 2" I shall not keep in mind... definitely not... > > Just check them out...: > > >>> [snip] ...false... [snip]... false teachers ...[snip]... damnable > heresies ...[snip]... bring upon themselves swift destruction ... [snip]... > pernicious ways ...[snip]... evil ...[snip]... <<< > > Does all that not come down to, "If you don't follow our way of leading you > to liberation you will be damned, or if not that, you will be sorry." ? No. To those verses must be added the historical info people are so inclined to remember about predjudices of the Church to come up with your interpretation. A man as intelligent in the ways of the world as yourself knows this. I can only assume you left out the entire text to serve your own theory instead of the truth. In my opinion your use of the word liberation is designed to take away the meaning of the verses. It is a beautiful word but you misused it. > > Getting people on "a bandwagon to freedom" is not the way... if getting > people on any bandwagon is a way to go at all. > > Wim I do not want to argue with you. Bobby G. /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: >There are extant texts, dated older than the heavily edited version of 'approved' new testamental writings that give evidence of this. .....Dear Brother and All, This is an interesting point that can be verified at the Heart. Since we are never separate from Truth, except in our imagination, there is the capacity for Truth to be re-cognized by Itself. In fact, it might perhaps be said that this is the sum of all "spiritual" practice -- this Remembrance. There was an intriguing passage in U.G. Krishnamurti's "The Mystique of Enlightenment", i recall, in which (after his own awakening -- the "calamity") he sat and listened to the Vedas being recited, and actually took on the "person" of the rishi authors, and was able to discern within his own being, even physically, which parts were from the original vibratory transmission and which parts had been added later by well-meaning but less-than-awakened "editors". In fact, the Bible is an obvious example of this, as are so many of the texts passed down over the ages that are generally taken as "gospel". The old Zen maxim: "A direct transmission, not dependent on words or scriptures..." seems a good reference point by which to evaluate the many flavors swirling around in the great legacy. LoveAlways, b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 > >Hmmm... > >There were specifically two groups: >(1) the 'family or bloodline group' around Mary the Magdalene (Jesus' >companion or spouse), Mary (Jesus' mother) and John (Jesus' beloved and >protector of the two Marys) Dearest Wimji, How refreshing and so delightful that you have said what i have long known, or thought i have known about Jesus and Mary Magdelene, that she was his lover, and that they had something so unusual and so beautific that no one ever would say it -- that being their deeply loving and personal relationship as Beloveds to one another! What a fine revelation you have presented here today and how much Joy it brings to my Heart to hear another say this thing about Jesus! Thank you for saying what others have feared to say about Jesus, that he was a fully living and complete human being in and on every level. So Wim, this is good and this is so and i Love You for saying it at long last Dearheart! Love, Mazie >Something behind this message is worthy, the message itself deviates from an >opportunity to apply love, there where it counts >-----Original Message----- >texasbg2000 [bigbobgraham (AT) aol (DOT) com] >Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 6:34 AM > > Re: Peter > > >Hello Wimji: > >Peter wrote;II Peter, Chapter 2 > >1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as >there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in >damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring >upon themselves swift destruction. > >2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom >the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. > >Peter is talking to his flock telling them of people in their own >midst who lie to them and distort the word for their own purposes. A >very reasonable exhortation. > >some people cannot keep from promoting themselves at the expense of >the truth. The message is worthy. > > >--- In , Wim Borsboom wrote: > > Hi Bobby G. > > > > You wrote: > > >>> Something to keep in mind I think.<< > >>> II Peter, Chapter 2... [snip] << > > > With all due respect, Bobby, and believe me, I have no chip on my >shoulder > > regarding the "good message" (eu-angelia) of christianity, but the >words in > > "II Peter, Chapter 2" I shall not keep in mind... definitely not... > > > > Just check them out...: > > > > >>> [snip] ...false... [snip]... false teachers ...[snip]... >damnable > > heresies ...[snip]... bring upon themselves swift destruction ... >[snip]... > > pernicious ways ....[snip]... evil ...[snip]... << > > > Does all that not come down to, "If you don't follow our way of >leading you > > to liberation you will be damned, or if not that, you will be >sorry." ? > > >No. To those verses must be added the historical info people are so >inclined to remember about predjudices of the Church to come up with >your interpretation. A man as intelligent in the ways of the world >as yourself knows this. I can only assume you left out the entire >text to serve your own theory instead of the truth. >In my opinion your use of the word liberation is designed to take >away the meaning of the verses. It is a beautiful word but you >misused it. > > > > > > Getting people on "a bandwagon to freedom" is not the way... if >getting > > people on any bandwagon is a way to go at all. > > > > Wim > >I do not want to argue with you. > >Bobby G. > > > >/join > > > > > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. >Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is >where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal >Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously >arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > >Your use of is subject to > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 1/2/2002 > > >------------------------ Sponsor ---------------------~--> >Will You Find True Love? >Will You Meet the One? >Free Love Reading by phone! >http://us.click./Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/bpSolB/TM >---~-> > >/join > > > > > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > >Your use of Groups is subject to > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Hi Mazie, You wrote: >>> How refreshing and so delightful that you have said what i have long known, or thought i have known about Jesus and Mary Magdelene, that she was his lover, and that they had something so unusual and so beautific that no one ever would say it -- that being their deeply loving and personal relationship as Beloveds to one another! What a fine revelation you have presented here today and how much Joy it brings to my Heart to hear another say this thing about Jesus! Thank you for saying what others have feared to say about Jesus, that he was a fully living and complete human being in and on every level. So Wim, this is good and this is so and i Love You for saying it at long last Dearheart! <<< Yes Mazie, and as I have intimated before, I still remember quite a bit of what happened in those days of yore. But... But.., why care about memories and the sadness and weeping that still comes with it? Why dwell? Well... hmm... Bobby's quote brought some more back, that's why. Things weren't so 'nice' all the time in those days... Ah, memories... memories.. But why indeed... memories? Why indeed, as THIS - this here now - is what counts, is what is... the miracle! Ah, the miracle of being present, awake, awake again. Being exponents in 'space alive' and 'time aliving' of 'living love'. We, us..., 'euaggelistai' (Greek) of that eternal message of divine love on 'this here earth'. This lovely earth of ours, this love thing, this lovely preoccupation of ours, these loving bodies who we so lovingly care to share with each other. Oh, all my dearest friends, is this it then? Is life then really that direct transmission of the message that divine love is still humanly possible on earth? Yes eh! (:-) or as we say in Dutch, "Oh ja!" (Pronounce "oya" while bobbing your head up and down :-) Divine love IS humanly possible on earth...! We ARE doing it, so direct, so immediate... life IS love, reality IS love, I am, you are. All this..., direct un-mediated transmission of divine love in 'this here space/time'. Ah, what miracle it is, that it is...! Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Ahhh......more arrows of love precisely aimed! Thank you, Bob. love, Shawn ====================== on 6/11/02 8:27 AM, hrtbeat7 at hrtbeat7 wrote: , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: >There are extant texts, dated older than the heavily edited version of 'approved' new testamental writings that give evidence of this. .....Dear Brother and All, This is an interesting point that can be verified at the Heart. Since we are never separate from Truth, except in our imagination, there is the capacity for Truth to be re-cognized by Itself. In fact, it might perhaps be said that this is the sum of all "spiritual" practice -- this Remembrance. There was an intriguing passage in U.G. Krishnamurti's "The Mystique of Enlightenment", i recall, in which (after his own awakening -- the "calamity") he sat and listened to the Vedas being recited, and actually took on the "person" of the rishi authors, and was able to discern within his own being, even physically, which parts were from the original vibratory transmission and which parts had been added later by well-meaning but less-than-awakened "editors". In fact, the Bible is an obvious example of this, as are so many of the texts passed down over the ages that are generally taken as "gospel". The old Zen maxim: "A direct transmission, not dependent on words or scriptures..." seems a good reference point by which to evaluate the many flavors swirling around in the great legacy. LoveAlways, b /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Hi Shawn, You wrote: >>> Ahhh......more arrows of love precisely aimed! <<< Uncannily direct, is it not, how Bob found that old Zen maxim: "A direct transmission, not dependent on words or scriptures...?" I bet you, I was writing at that very moment (although way less succinct and definitely not as zenly): >>> Divine love IS humanly possible on earth...! We ARE doing it, so direct, so immediate... life IS love, reality IS love, I am, you are. All this..., direct un-mediated transmission of divine love in 'this here space/time'. Ah, what miracle it is, that it is...! <<< How can I say such things more zenly and directly? I am actually looking for something as zanily zenly as Manuel in Fawlty Towers when he announced, "I know nothing." When I returned home from my travels a few weeks ago, Emmy (my wife) and Cassie (our cabin dweller) had made a little pond in front of the porch. A pond? Actually there was nothing in it! But boy oh boy, were they ever proud of their work and I was so happy for them. Then Emmy said, "Well Wim, actually..., there's nothing to it...!" and Cassie said, "...Just add water!" And so it is: Life, it's nothing and there's nothing to it, just add love. Wim (I know nothing, just adding my voice.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Ah...yes.........so nice.....but it seems my work is not to add love but to subtract notlove. But then ,....what is *that*? Those little things can get so big, can't they? The sparkle in your child's eye. Being is loving, Shawn ================== on 6/11/02 1:26 PM, Wim Borsboom at wim (AT) aurasphere (DOT) org wrote: Hi Shawn, You wrote: >>> Ahhh......more arrows of love precisely aimed! <<< Uncannily direct, is it not, how Bob found that old Zen maxim: "A direct transmission, not dependent on words or scriptures...?" I bet you, I was writing at that very moment (although way less succinct and definitely not as zenly): >>> Divine love IS humanly possible on earth...! We ARE doing it, so direct, so immediate... life IS love, reality IS love, I am, you are. All this..., direct un-mediated transmission of divine love in 'this here space/time'. Ah, what miracle it is, that it is...! <<< How can I say such things more zenly and directly? I am actually looking for something as zanily zenly as Manuel in Fawlty Towers when he announced, "I know nothing." When I returned home from my travels a few weeks ago, Emmy (my wife) and Cassie (our cabin dweller) had made a little pond in front of the porch. A pond? Actually there was nothing in it! But boy oh boy, were they ever proud of their work and I was so happy for them. Then Emmy said, "Well Wim, actually..., there's nothing to it...!" and Cassie said, "...Just add water!" And so it is: Life, it's nothing and there's nothing to it, just add love. Wim (I know nothing, just adding my voice.) /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Of course, you are right Shawn, as you say, "...it seems my work is not to add love but to subtract notlove." By now you know me my dear Shawn..., Wim, the inveterate player with words who could not resist playing with an advertising slogan to "Just add water". You say, "The sparkle in your child's eye."Yes, as long as we keep sparkling each other's eyes.... Wim (just adding sunshine:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2002 Report Share Posted June 12, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: ......but it seems my work is not to add love but to subtract notlove. "The state of Self-realization, as we call it, is not attaining something new or reaching some goal which is far away, but simply being that which you always are and which you always have been. All that is needed is to give up your realization of the not-true as true. All of us are regarding as real that which is not real. We have only to give up this practice on our part. Then we shall realize the Self as the Self, in other words, `Be the Self'. The state we call realization is simply being oneself, not knowing anything or becoming anything. If one has realized, one is that alone which `is' and which alone has always been. One cannot describe that state. One can only be that." Ramana Maharshi (from Absolute Consciousness) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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