Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Hi Jody, to get this out of the way first - thanks for your consideration, but I don't feel in any way attacked by your statements. On the contrary, I appreciate your presence on this list because in my perception you always play fair, trying to argue the facts and eschewing snide remarks and personal attacks. Though we may not always agree, this attitude of yours is much appreciated. That said, let us now see if we can find some common ground regarding the points each of us have brought up. You suggest taking Sri Ramana's words "at face value". I'd love to do this, but unfortunately there is no generally accepted "face value" to statements pertaining to the spiritual. If there were, we would not have countless sects and denominations within religions, each interpreting their holy scriptures' "face values" in myriad different ways where one man's gospel truth may be another man's heresy. Might we not agree, then, that there is no substitute for deep and reverent - and, to the best of our ability, also rational - study and cogitation of a saint's words? In the present case, Sri Ramana himself has given guidance in what way perfection already exists within each one of us. He said: M: The Real is as it always is. We are not creating anything new, or achieving something, which we did not have before. The illustration given in books is this. We dig a well and create a huge pit. The space in the pit or the well has not been created by us. We have just removed the earth, which was filling the space there. The space was there then and is also there now. Similarly we have simply to throw out all the age-long Samskaras [innate tendencies] which are inside us. When all of them have been given up, the Self will shine alone. This tells us the meaning of Sri Ramana's words quite clearly, doesn't it? The meaning seems to be that perfection already exists within us in the same way that a huge pit is already - potentially - contained in any plot of land. We simply have to do the digging! Metaphorically, this gives us the assurance that we, each one of us, can reach the same state of perfection that Jesus and Sri Ramana have reached. Those great souls have removed the "earth" that had been within them so that there would be the space for God, or the Self, to shine forth, and we can do likewise. It is a wondrous and comforting message. However, having the potential of perfection within us does not mean we are already established in the Self. It doesn't mean we are even close. We already own the land with a potential pit in it, but unless we have removed the earth, where is the pit in actuality? The dirt is still there, is it not? Kindest regards, Michael > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: jodyrrr [jodyrrr] > Gesendet: Monday, June 10, 2002 05:17 > An: > Betreff: Re: Maharshi-You are already perfect > > > , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > it's good to know that on some level we are already > > perfect, but IMHO we need to be extremely careful > > with such a statement because it can be very > > misleading. > > And thus Ramana's words are eviscerated by practiced humility. > > > Words of saints and masters are sometimes spoken > > from a special viewpoint, and can easily be misconstrued. > > Like when Jesus said, "I say unto you that more joy shall > > be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, than over ninety > > and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Should we > > all hurry to become greater sinners now? > > We might go a little deeper into the meaning of the statement. > > > Likewise, it may be true from a very high standpoint that > > we are already perfect and that there is nothing to realize, > > and this statement may inspire us and spur us on in our search. > > But if we are sincere with ourselves, we won't conclude from > > that that we are self-realized beings like Jesus or Sri > > Ramana just yet. > > But we might conclude it's not very far away, that it may be > just around the corner, no matter what kind of "sinners" we > are. > > > Just a little warning, probably not necessary here, but I > > wrote it anyway. > > :-) > > > > In loving imperfection, > > > > Michael > > Michael, please don't see this as an attack on you, but > I think you can take Ramana's words at face value each > and every time you encounter them. For example: > > M: Do not entertain such thoughts of imperfection, > lack of qualities, etc. You are already perfect. Get > rid of the ideas of imperfection and need for > development. There is nothing to realize or > annihilate. You are the Self. The ego does not exist. > Pursue the enquiry and see if there is anything to be > realized or annihilated. See if there is any mind to > be controlled. Even the effort is being made by the > mind which does not exist. > > Each and every person here can take each and every word > above as the clear and honest truth about us all. They > really need no interpretation at all. That's what's so > beautiful about Sri Ramana's words. They are right on > the money right from the source everytime. There is > no myth there, only fact of being, always. > > love--jody. > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, > sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and > exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves > rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from > Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come > and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart > Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A > true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to > a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: [snip] > In the present case, Sri Ramana himself has given guidance > in what way perfection already exists within each one of > us. He said: > > M: The Real is as it always is. We are not creating anything > new, or achieving something, which we did not have before. > The illustration given in books is this. > We dig a well and create a huge pit. The space in the pit > or the well has not been created by us. We have just removed > the earth, which was filling the space there. The space was > there then and is also there now. Similarly we have simply to > throw out all the age-long Samskaras [innate tendencies] > which are inside us. When all of them have been given up, > the Self will shine alone. > > This tells us the meaning of Sri Ramana's words quite clearly, > doesn't it? But what of this passage: "M: Do not entertain such thoughts of imperfection, lack of qualities, etc. You are already perfect. Get rid of the ideas of imperfection and need for development. There is nothing to realize or annihilate. You are the Self. The ego does not exist. Pursue the enquiry and see if there is anything to be realized or annihilated. See if there is any mind to be controlled. Even the effort is being made by the mind which does not exist." Isn't the meaning equally clear? Can't we take these words in the same way? I'd contend Ramana's illustration of the pit was an attempt to explain why we *aren't* realized, not a "how to" become realized. If we're already perfect, why don't we know it? Ramana explains: samskaras. The path is an exercise in getting rid of them. However, having these samskaras doesn't impede our perfection, as he notes in the second passage. While we might blame the samskaras for our ignorance, they still do not prevent our perfection as the Self. It's a sticky wicket for sure, but I've come to understand and agree with the second passage and would take it over the first every time. That may make me exceedingly grandiose in the eyes of some, but such is the counsel of my heart and such remains congruent with what this life has come to understand. love--jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: That may > make me exceedingly grandiose in the eyes of some, > but such is the counsel of my heart and such remains > congruent with what this life has come to understand. > > love--jody. Dear Jody: I read most of your posts and have yet to find any points I disagree on. Personally I think you have a knack for avoiding Advaitistic (?) errors and must have a consistant experience of reality to draw upon. I think you may have run afoul of other's economic interests and some confusion about your stance has ensued. Love and respect Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: [snip] > Dear Jody: > > I read most of your posts and have yet to find any points I disagree > on. Personally I think you have a knack for avoiding Advaitistic (?) > errors and must have a consistant experience of reality to draw upon. > I think you may have run afoul of other's economic interests and some > confusion about your stance has ensued. > > Love and respect > Bobby G. I appreciate the boost, Bobby G. Take care. love--jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 > It always amazes me how in love so many are with their beliefs, even > to the point that they can manufacture experiences within themselves > to confirm their beliefs. we can see this, for example, in the so- > called advaitists who are so committed to their concepts about no > concepts that they even believe they are actually experiencing no > concepts! > of course, this is quite a bit different than really experiencing the > freedom inherent in our own True Nature, but don't try telling them > that! > > LoveAlways, > > b no. instead of trying to tell them that, be this. love, this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 > >We couldn't let that happen now, > could we? > > > ....Dear Jody, > do you believe that you have some choice in the matter? > > > > LoveAlways, > > b Indeed -- choice can only arise conceptually, in a space that has only conceptual reality -- a space "before" or "after" now. differentiating the conceptual and nonconceptual is only this. the nonconceptual has no such space "before it is" or "after it has occurred." all conceptuality depends on the not-ever-really-here conceptual space in which all kinds of conceptual events can be construed, including me :-) Namaste, now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Many people seem to get confused when they try to reconcile some authority's words (such as Ramana's), unless it is remembered that these people were speaking at different times to different people, and so there might appear to be contradictions. For example, a Zen Master may tell one student that there is no Buddha Nature, and another that there is only Buddha Nature. He (or she) might even tell the same person, at different circumstances, that there is and then tell them there isn't. People tend to take a particular phrase or talk that was meant for one person or group and generalize it to fit their own purposes. We see this all the time. I may say one thing to Shawn, something different to Jody, and something different to Mazie, and then everyone else may take the words meant for one person and run their own fugues and add their own interpretations, and so on. The best advice i ever got was: Find out for yourself. In other words, don't rely on others' words or testimonies, no matter how much you might admire them. They had to do the work themselves, and so do we. Nagarjuna demonstrated, quite some time ago, that anything derived from mind could be equally proposed and refuted, leaving only the direct experience itself as verification of Truth. It's certainly fun to speculate and philosophically explore Dharma, but this will only leave us with that feeling of having eaten junk food, and still hungry for the real meal -- the direct experience. LoveAlways, b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Greetings, May a syllogism capture a portion of the argument or interpretation, by some here, on the question of Enlightenment. "If John Doe, the Programmer is to Computers what We spiritual practitioners are to Enlighenment, Then Bill Gates is to Computers what Ramana Maharshi is to Enlightenment". I don't agree. Some are "mentalizing" over or otherwise expounding on the whys and wherefores of "Our" lack of success with respect to Enlightenment. They may argue that evidence of Enlightenment is found in the Stories of how a whole village disciples grew up around Swami Nityananda. They may state that if we have not "travelled" and remained stationed on the "causal plane" then there is no evidence of Enlightenment. Or they will want us to demonstrate how our Kundalini energy has burst our Third Eye. These practices are interesting and honorable, so we do them for our wellbeing and growth. We will continue to note that realizing one's own True Nature and becoming some historic Enlighened personage is an impossibility (and I'm accounting for all the advances in Cloning!, and maybe the best we can hope for is that they say we are the *Reincarnated* personage.... There is a sacred imprint, our external/internal form, which defines absolute duplication. Our external/internal form (i.e., our Karma) does not disallow our Realization. What shades our Realization is the images in the Mind about Realization. Those who doubt the Self, have doubts about not only their own Realization, but that of a Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ram Das, J.Krishnamurti, Swami Satchitananda and every one else's. be well, CJ , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: > Hi Jody, > > to get this out of the way first - thanks for your consideration, but I > don't feel in any way attacked by your statements. On the contrary, I > appreciate your presence on this list because in my perception you always > play fair, trying to argue the facts and eschewing snide remarks and > personal attacks. Though we may not always agree, this attitude of yours is > much appreciated. > > That said, let us now see if we can find some common ground regarding the > points each of us have brought up. > > You suggest taking Sri Ramana's words "at face value". I'd love to do this, > but unfortunately there is no generally accepted "face value" to statements > pertaining to the spiritual. If there were, we would not have countless > sects and denominations within religions, each interpreting their holy > scriptures' "face values" in myriad different ways where one man's gospel > truth may be another man's heresy. > > Might we not agree, then, that there is no substitute for deep and > reverent - and, to the best of our ability, also rational - study and > cogitation of a saint's words? > > In the present case, Sri Ramana himself has given guidance in what way > perfection already exists within each one of us. He said: > > M: The Real is as it always is. We are not creating anything > new, or achieving something, which we did not have before. > The illustration given in books is this. > We dig a well and create a huge pit. The space in the pit > or the well has not been created by us. We have just removed > the earth, which was filling the space there. The space was > there then and is also there now. Similarly we have simply to > throw out all the age-long Samskaras [innate tendencies] > which are inside us. When all of them have been given up, > the Self will shine alone. > > This tells us the meaning of Sri Ramana's words quite clearly, doesn't it? > The meaning seems to be that perfection already exists within us in the same > way that a huge pit is already - potentially - contained in any plot of > land. We simply have to do the digging! > > Metaphorically, this gives us the assurance that we, each one of us, can > reach the same state of perfection that Jesus and Sri Ramana have reached. > Those great souls have removed the "earth" that had been within them so that > there would be the space for God, or the Self, to shine forth, and we can do > likewise. It is a wondrous and comforting message. > > However, having the potential of perfection within us does not mean we are > already established in the Self. It doesn't mean we are even close. We > already own the land with a potential pit in it, but unless we have removed > the earth, where is the pit in actuality? The dirt is still there, is it > not? > > Kindest regards, > > Michael > > > > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > > Von: jodyrrr [jodyrrr] > > Gesendet: Monday, June 10, 2002 05:17 > > An: > > Betreff: Re: Maharshi-You are already perfect > > > > > > , MikeSuesserott@t... wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > > > it's good to know that on some level we are already > > > perfect, but IMHO we need to be extremely careful > > > with such a statement because it can be very > > > misleading. > > > > And thus Ramana's words are eviscerated by practiced humility. > > > > > Words of saints and masters are sometimes spoken > > > from a special viewpoint, and can easily be misconstrued. > > > Like when Jesus said, "I say unto you that more joy shall > > > be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, than over ninety > > > and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Should we > > > all hurry to become greater sinners now? > > > > We might go a little deeper into the meaning of the statement. > > > > > Likewise, it may be true from a very high standpoint that > > > we are already perfect and that there is nothing to realize, > > > and this statement may inspire us and spur us on in our search. > > > But if we are sincere with ourselves, we won't conclude from > > > that that we are self-realized beings like Jesus or Sri > > > Ramana just yet. > > > > But we might conclude it's not very far away, that it may be > > just around the corner, no matter what kind of "sinners" we > > are. > > > > > Just a little warning, probably not necessary here, but I > > > wrote it anyway. > > > :-) > > > > > > In loving imperfection, > > > > > > Michael > > > > Michael, please don't see this as an attack on you, but > > I think you can take Ramana's words at face value each > > and every time you encounter them. For example: > > > > M: Do not entertain such thoughts of imperfection, > > lack of qualities, etc. You are already perfect. Get > > rid of the ideas of imperfection and need for > > development. There is nothing to realize or > > annihilate. You are the Self. The ego does not exist. > > Pursue the enquiry and see if there is anything to be > > realized or annihilated. See if there is any mind to > > be controlled. Even the effort is being made by the > > mind which does not exist. > > > > Each and every person here can take each and every word > > above as the clear and honest truth about us all. They > > really need no interpretation at all. That's what's so > > beautiful about Sri Ramana's words. They are right on > > the money right from the source everytime. There is > > no myth there, only fact of being, always. > > > > love--jody. > > > > > > /join > > > > > > > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, > > sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and > > exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves > > rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from > > Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come > > and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart > > Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A > > true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to > > a. > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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