Ammachi interview

[Guest guest]

When You Go Beyond the Ego

You Become an Offering to the World

 

An Interview with

Mata Amritanandamayi

by Amy Edelstein

(WIE)

 

A tiny dark-skinned woman draped in a white sari beams as she totters

down the aisle of loving devotees. Their outstretched hands are like

feather plumes, waving, reaching to brush her as she leaves the

crowded hall. Her face is placid, strong and fully alert, as it has

been unwaveringly for the last five hours, but her exhausted body can

hardly balance; it seems that she may even topple over in a faint

before she reaches the waiting car outside. The right shoulder of her

sari is stained dark from the sweat and tears of a thousand cheeks

that have found succor there. Mata Amritanandamayi has, since early

this morning, without pause for food or even a sip of water,

literally held one thousand people to her bosom, listened to their

troubles and their deepest spiritual longings, showered them with

flower petals, pressed sweet prasad [consecrated offerings] into

their palms, blessed their photos, malas [prayer beads] and children;

and one after the other, each and every supplicant has received the

same undivided cosmic love from Ammachi, the Holy Mother.

Young and old, married and single, male and female, wealthy,

impoverished, beautiful, crippled, suspicious, crazy and sincere—all

are welcomed without exception. And as she embraces each one,

chanting softly "Ma, Ma, Ma, Ma" in each person's ear, the

transmission of compassion coming from her is one steady stream that

never ebbs, never wavers, and her shining face never registers even

the slightest trace of preference or fear regardless of who kneels

before her.

They say that Ammachi is an avatar, an incarnation of the Divine on

earth. They say that her ego has been completely destroyed, that all

vestiges of identification with a separate sense of self have been

annihilated. They say when she looks out, she sees only one Self in

everyone.

So from one who is said to have crossed over, what can we learn about

the right relationship to ego? If her eyes see only God, does the ego

even exist, in her view? What is this mahatma's [great soul's]

message to true seekers of moksha [liberation] when it comes to the

most fundamental and ultimately challenging battle of spiritual life?

How does her apparently infinite love manifest when it meets the

enemy of her disciples, the ego?

Mata Amritanandamayi's guidance for the seeker of liberation is

simple and absolute: Serve God and surrender the ego and all its

desires. She says, as many of the most revered saints and sages

throughout history have also proclaimed, "Contentment ensues from

egolessness. And egolessness comes from devotion, love and utter

surrender to the Supreme Lord."

Ammachi's public teachings take place at traditional gatherings that

are called "Devi Bhava" [literally "mood of the Goddess"]

and "darshan" [audience with a guru], where she hugs and blesses all

who come to see her. Almost a quarter of a million people seek her

out every year, and she receives each and every one of them, giving

them love and helping them with both spiritual and mundane concerns.

She cannot turn anyone away, for to the Divine Mother, all are equal

in their need for love. "During the Bhava," she explains, "different

kinds of people come to see me, some out of devotion, others for a

solution to their worldly problems and others for relief from

diseases. I discard none. Can I reject them? Are they different from

me? Are we not all beads strung on the one life thread? According to

each one's level of thinking, they see me. Both those who love me and

those who hate me are the same to me."

Ammachi is indefatigable, or at least physical fatigue seems to weigh

little on her. Her meditation on the divine current appears to drown

out all bodily consciousness. Even after traveling all the way from

India to Europe, or sleeping for only an hour the night before,

Ammachi arrives precisely on time to give darshan. She answers

spiritual questions, distributes bhasma [sacred healing ash] to the

sick, and not until five or six hours and seven, eight or nine

hundred souls later, when the very last person has been received,

will she get up for food and a short rest before returning only a few

hours later, again precisely on time, to chant, meditate and receive

the thousand or so more spiritual pilgrims who have come for her

blessing hug.

Often referring to herself in the third person, Ammachi describes the

passion that animates her: "Each and every drop of Mother's blood,

each and every particle of her energy is for her children

[devotees]. . . . The purpose of this body and of Mother's whole life

is to serve her children. Mother's only wish is that her hands should

always be on someone's shoulders, consoling and caressing them and

wiping their tears, even while breathing her last." Selfless service,

Ammachi teaches, is the whole of her life and is the path she

prescribes for spiritual seekers who are committed to transcending

the ego, to destroying the separate sense of self.

By all accounts the hardest worker at her ashram in Idamannel, in

southern India, Ammachi is a living example of her teaching. She can

be found carrying bricks to building sites, tending cows or cleaning

toilets in addition to meeting with her brahmacharis and

brahamacharinis [male and female celibate students] and seeing to all

ashram affairs. Her disciples tell stories of how, even after a long

day of receiving visitors, Ammachi will cook for them and feed them

like little children, with her own hand. She also fulfills a world

travel and teaching schedule that keeps all of her closest devotees

on the brink of exhaustion and has inspired numerous charitable works—

ambitious projects that have tangibly uplifted thousands of people's

lives, including a brand-new, state-of-the-art $55 million, 800-bed

heart transplant hospital, an orphanage for 600 children, 5,000 free

houses for the poor and one of the finest computer colleges in her

native state of Kerala.

Ammachi's compassion seems virtually limitless. She is so intoxicated

with God that she seems to have burned out every trace of personal

desire, and many the world over revere her as the very embodiment of

unconditional love. And yet, Mata Amritanandamayi, the "Mother of

Immortal Bliss," has a wrathful face as well. As unconditionally

accepting as she is of those who initially come to see her, for those

who have chosen to live their lives under her tutelage as her

disciples, she is known to be an equally demanding and exacting

spiritual teacher. Her discipline can be fierce; to come close to

Ammachi, her students say, is to come close to the fire.

In Ammachi's teachings, the role of the guru is to "break the ego of

the disciple" so that "they can know reality." She warns them of the

dangers of the ego, saying: "Blindness of the eyes is bearable and

can be managed. . . . You can still have a loving and compassionate

heart. But when you are blinded by the ego, you are completely

blind. . . . The blindness carried by the ego pushes you into

complete darkness."

Ammachi believes that the path to liberation is a path of humility

and obedience, and that it is only by bowing down to the guru that

the disciple can keep his or her ego in check. Long-term students

readily tell stories of hardships and tests, of the "ego bashing"

and "ego rebellion" that they experience at the feet of their beloved

guru. They speak frequently and respectfully of the tough schedules,

physical discomfort and strict discipline that have tested them more

than a little. "It is not always easy being with Mother," they

say, "but she helps to speed up our karma."

One Western student of thirteen years described some of the many ways

Ammachi challenges her disciples and explained how in her own case

Ammachi has separated her from her husband for long periods of time

to help further their sadhana [spiritual practice] and "put pressure

on their egos." Ammachi's ordained students observe strict celibacy,

and residents of her ashram practice eight hours of meditation a day

in addition to their karma yoga [selfless service]. Her disciples

sleep little, often only four hours a night, and not infrequently

just one or two. "It keeps us on the edge all the time and teaches us

surrender," one devotee said. "If you want for yourself, you end up

frustrated and angry, so you learn to let go."

When once asked by a visitor whether hard work, like carrying bricks,

doesn't unfairly tax the brahmacharis, Ammachi without hesitation

explained why she will sometimes call her students to labor even late

at night after they have gone to sleep: "Amma wants to see how many

of them have the spirit of selflessness, or whether they are just

living for bodily comforts. On such occasions we can see if their

meditation is doing them any good. We have to develop the readiness

to help when others are struggling. Otherwise, what is the point of

doing tapas [austerities]?"

Ammachi knows well the weaknesses of human nature. Often when her

disciples are proud or stubborn and do not heed her guidance, she

will fast, refusing both food and water. Knowing that their beloved

guru is going hungry on their behalf is the worst punishment they

could be given, her brahmacharis confess. "The true guru will not

allow an iota of ego to grow [in a disciple]," Ammachi says. "To

check the growth of pride, the guru may act in a very cruel

manner. . . . People who see the blacksmith forging a hot piece of

iron with his hammer may think that he is a cruel person. The iron

piece may also think that nowhere can there be such a brute. But

while dealing each blow, the blacksmith is only thinking of the end

product. The real guru is also like this."

For some observers, Ammachi's standards for her disciples seem harsh

and disconcertingly contrary to the unconditional love she expresses

in her all-embracing role as the Divine Mother. And in a time when

the notion of unconditional love is held so dear in the minds of many

Western seekers, Mother's two opposing bhavas [moods] challenge some

deeply rooted beliefs. So what is compassion in the face of the ego?

What is the right relationship to this perennial enemy of the seeker

after enlightenment? In Paris, for two and a half hours in the middle

of Ammachi's darshan, I had the rare privilege of interviewing this

extraordinary woman for this issue of WIE.

 

INTERVIEW

 

WIE: What is ego?

 

MATA AMRITANANDAMAYI: You are actually asking, what is unreality? But

how can unreality be described? What use is there in talking about

something that isn't real, that is nonexistent? And how can you speak

about that which is real? Amma can only give you a few hints. The

mind is the ego. But the ego is a big lie—it is a liar. It is unreal.

There was a cowherd boy who took his cows to the meadows every

morning and brought them back to the cowshed at the end of the day.

One evening, as he was tying the cows up for the night, the boy found

that one of them was missing her rope. He feared that she might run

away, but it was too late to go and buy a new rope. The boy didn't

know what to do, so he went to a wise man who lived nearby and sought

his advice. The wise man told the boy to pretend to tie the cow, and

make sure that the cow saw him doing it. The boy did as the wise man

suggested and pretended to tie the cow. The next morning the boy

discovered that the cow had remained still throughout the night. He

untied all the cows as usual, and they all went outside. He was about

to go to the meadows when he noticed that the cow with the missing

rope was still in the cowshed. She was standing on the same spot

where she had been all night. He tried to coax her to join the herd,

but she wouldn't budge. The boy was perplexed. He went back to the

wise man who said, "The cow still thinks she is tied up. Go back and

pretend to untie her." The boy did as he was told, and the cow

happily left the cowshed. This is what the guru does with the ego of

the disciple. The guru helps untie that which was never there. Like

the cow, due to our ignorance, we believe that we are bound by the

ego when, in fact, we are completely free. We need to be convinced of

this, however.

The ego is an illusion with no existence of its own. It appears to be

real because of the power it derives from the Atman [self]. It is

animated by the Atman. The ego itself can be compared to dead matter;

for without the Atman, it would have no life. Stop supporting the

ego, and it will withdraw and disappear. We ourselves lend the unreal

ego its reality. Expose it for what it is, or rather, for what it

isn't, and that will be the end of it.

A dog wags its tail—the tail does not wag the dog. If the tail were

to wag the dog, it would be disastrous! The same is true with the

mind. The mind, or the ego, should be nothing more than a useful

tool; a sadhaka [spiritual seeker] shouldn't let him- or herself be

ruled by the whims and fancies of the mind.

The ego consists of our thoughts and our mind. Our thoughts are our

own creation. We make them real by cooperating with them. If we

withdraw our support, they will dissolve. We simply have to observe

our thoughts. The clouds in the sky assume different shapes, and they

change constantly. You may see clouds drifting by that look like

faces of the gods or different animals or sailing ships. A small

child may believe that these shapes are real, but, of course, they

are only illusions. In the same way, our ever changing thoughts drift

through the mind, which is the ego. They assume different forms, but

they are no more real than the shape of a cloud in the sky. If we

simply witness our thoughts as they drift by, they will no longer

have any effect on us or influence us in any way.

A lion made of sandalwood is real to a child, but to a grown-up it's

a piece of sandalwood. For the child, the wood is concealed,

revealing only the lion. The grown-up may also enjoy the lion, but he

knows it is not real. For him, the wood is real, not the lion. In the

same way, to a Self-realized soul, the entire universe is nothing but

the essence, the "wood" that comprises everything, the Absolute

Brahman or Consciousness.

 

WIE: What is ego death for the true seeker of moksha [liberation]?

 

MA: If the ego is unreal, what death are you talking about? We

superimpose the unreal on the real. What really exists is Brahman.

There is no discovery, only uncovering.

 

WIE: What are the signs of true ego transcendence?

 

MA: One who has gone beyond the ego becomes an offering to the world,

like an incense stick that burns itself out while bestowing its

fragrance to others. For such a person there is no sense of

otherness. It is difficult to say what a clear sign would be. People

pretend or they imitate this and that quality—but for a real master,

one who truly doesn't identify with the ego, his or her entire being,

and every action, is a pure expression of divine love and self-

sacrifice. Divine love and self-sacrifice cannot be imitated.

 

WIE: Is it possible for a master to completely annihilate their ego?

 

MA: A mahatma [great soul] is one who disidentifies with the ego;

they see everything as an extension of the Self. Due to our

ignorance, we identify with the ego, with that which is not real, but

a mahatma is not identified at all with the ego, with that which is

unreal.

 

WIE: How does the guru help to annihilate the ego of the disciple?

 

MA: A true master creates the situations that will allow the seeker

to come out of his or her dream. The disciple wants to continue to

sleep and to dream, but the master wants to awaken him or her. The

whole effort of the master is to somehow bring the disciple back to

the reality of his or her true existence.

 

WIE: It is said that the ego will go to any length to maintain its

grip on the individual, even masquerading as our own spiritual

longing. What are the most important qualities for success in the

fight against the endless tricks of the ego?

 

MA: Performing one's own dharma with utmost shraddha. Shraddha is

very important at the beginning stage on the spiritual path; it is

absolutely essential.

 

WIE: What is shraddha? Is it faith in the possibility of transcending

the ego in this life?

 

MA: Shraddha is more than just faith. It is trust and love. Both

trust and love are necessary to transcend the ego—trust in the

existence of a higher reality, love for that reality and an intense

longing to realize it.

 

WIE: What is the best way to cultivate discrimination in the face of

all the temptations of the ego?

 

MA: Just as a little boy grows out of his teddy bear and other toys,

a true seeker gains the power to discriminate between the eternal and

noneternal as his understanding grows and as he advances along the

path. The power of discrimination dawns within us as we gain proper

understanding and as we mature. As we learn how to evaluate life's

experiences in the proper manner, we automatically begin to use our

discriminative intelligence. It is an inner blossoming that takes

place—like a bud opening up. It is part of a slow but steady process.

There is a divine message hidden behind every experience life brings

you—both the positive and negative experiences. Just penetrate

beneath the surface and you will receive the message. Nothing comes

from outside; everything is within you. The whole universe is within

you.

There will be many temptations and challenges along the way. Only an

experienced person can help you. The way to moksha is very subtle,

and it is easy for a spiritual aspirant to become deluded.

 

WIE: What is the role of the spiritual master in guiding the seeker

on the path to moksha or liberation?

 

MA: If you want to learn how to drive, you need to be taught by an

experienced driver. A child needs to be taught how to tie his

shoelaces. And how can you learn mathematics without a teacher? Even

a pickpocket needs a teacher to teach him the art of stealing. If

teachers are indispensable in ordinary life, wouldn't we need a

teacher even more on the spiritual path, which is so extremely subtle?

Though that subtle knowledge is our true nature, we have been

identified with the world of names and forms for so long, thinking

them to be real. We now need to cease that identification. But in

reality, there is nothing to teach. A master simply helps you to

complete the journey.

If you want to go to a distant place, you may want to buy a map. But

no matter how well you study the map, if you are heading toward a

totally strange land, an unknown place, you won't know anything about

that place until you actually arrive. Nor will the map tell you much

about the journey itself, about the ups and downs of the road and the

possible dangers on the way. It is therefore better to receive

guidance from someone who has completed the journey, someone who

knows the way from his or her own experience.

On the spiritual journey, we have to really listen to and then

contemplate what the master says. We have to be humble in order to

receive. When we really listen and then sincerely contemplate, we

will assimilate the teachings properly.

 

WIE: Why is submission to a guru said to be so important in helping

the disciple transcend the ego?

 

MA: The seat of the ego is the mind. Any other obstacle can be

removed by using the mind except the ego, because the ego is subtler

than the mind. It is only through obedience to the one who is

established in that supreme experience that one can conquer the ego.

 

WIE: You didn't have an external guru, yet you completely transcended

your ego. It seems you depended on the formless as your guru to take

you all the way.

 

MA: Yes, you could say that. But Amma considered the whole of

creation to be her guru.

 

WIE: Is perfect obedience to the guru ultimately the same as ego

death?

 

MA: Yes. That is why the satguru [realized spiritual master] is

depicted in the Kathopanishad as Yama, the lord of death. The death

of the disciple's ego can take place only with the help of a satguru.

Obedience isn't something that can be forced on the disciple. The

disciple is tremendously inspired by the master, who is an embodiment

of humility. Obedience and humility simply happen in a true master's

presence.

 

WIE: It takes rare courage to face ego death.

 

MA: Yes, very few can do it. If you have the courage and

determination to knock at the door of death, you will find that there

is no death. For even death, or the death of the ego, is an illusion.

 

WIE: There have been some very powerful spiritual teachers who seem

to have been driven by the impure motives of the ego. Do you think

that spiritual experiences could at times empower the ego rather than

destroy it?

 

MA: Amma doesn't agree that those teachers to whom you are referring

are realized. A Self-realized master is completely independent. Such

beings don't have to depend on anything external for their happiness

because they are full of bliss, which they derive from within their

own Atman. Amma would say that everyone forms part of a crowd, except

the realized masters. In fact, except for those rare souls, there are

no individuals. Only one who is realized is uniquely individual and

totally independent of the crowd. Only such a soul is alone in the

world of bliss.

True spiritual masters have to set an example through their actions

and their lives. Those who abuse their position and power, taking

advantage of others, obviously do not derive all their happiness and

contentment from within themselves, and so they cannot be realized

masters. Why would a realized master crave adulation or power? Those

who do are still under the grip of the ego. They may claim to be

realized, but they are not. A perfect master doesn't claim anything.

He simply is—he is presence.

Until the moment before realization takes place, a person is not safe

from the temptations of his or her desires.

 

WIE: So would you say that people like this have become more proud as

a result of having had spiritual experiences? Can spiritual

experiences at times strengthen the ego in a negative way?

 

MA: The people to whom this happens are deluded, and they confuse

others as well. They will actually push others into delusion. Some

people gain a glimpse of something, or have a spiritual experience,

and then think they have attained moksha. Only someone who is not

realized will think, "I am spiritual, I am realized," and this will

create a strong, subtle ego. A subtle ego is more dangerous than a

gross ego. Even the individuals themselves won't understand that the

subtle ego is leading or motivating them, and this subtle ego will

become part of their nature. Such people will do anything for name

and fame.

Amma also feels that this kind of pride makes people lose their

capacity to listen. And listening is extremely important on the

spiritual path. A person who does not listen cannot be humble. And it

is only when we are truly humble that the already existing pure

Consciousness will be unfolded within us. Only one who is humbler

than the humblest can be considered greater than the greatest.

 

WIE: Since it is possible for spiritual experiences to feed the ego,

is it necessary to cultivate purity first?

 

MA: There is no need to get obsessed with purity. Focus on your

dharma, performing it with the right attitude and with love. Then

purity will follow.

 

WIE: What is dharma, in the way you are using it?

 

MA: Dharma is the right action in the right place at the right time.

 

WIE: How can one know what one's dharma is?

 

MA: By loving life with the right attitude and having the right

understanding, we will know what the right thing to do is. And then,

if we perform our dharma, purity will come.

 

WIE: How do you cultivate that kind of love?

 

MA: Love isn't something that can be cultivated—it's already within

us in all its fullness. Life cannot exist without love; they are

inseparable. Life and love are not two; they are one and the same. A

little bit of the proper channeling of your energies will awaken the

love within you.

You need to have a strong intent to reach the goal of liberation; you

need to be focused on that goal. Then such qualities as love,

patience, enthusiasm and optimism will spring forth within you. These

qualities will work to help you attain your goal.

 

WIE: You are revered by so many as the embodiment of unconditional

love, and you literally hug everyone who comes to see you. But I have

heard that you can also be very fierce with your students. How do

these two very different methods of teaching go together?

 

MA: For Amma there are not two different methods; Amma has only one

method, and that is love. That love manifests as patience and

compassion. However, if a deer comes and eats the tender flower buds

in your garden, you cannot be gentle with the deer and say

softly, "Please deer, don't eat the flowers." You have to shout at it

and even wave a stick. It is sometimes necessary to show this type of

mood in order to correct the disciple. Kali is the compassionate

mother in her disciplining mood. But look into her eyes—there is no

anger there.

Amma only disciplines those who have chosen to stay close to her, and

she only does this when they are ready to be disciplined. A disciple

is one who is willing to be disciplined. The guru first binds the

disciple with boundless, unconditional love so that when the disciple

eventually is disciplined, he or she is aware of the presence of that

love in all situations.

Amma helps her children to always be aware and alert. Love has many

aspects. When Amma disciplines her children, she does this with the

sole purpose of guiding them along the path to help them to fully

blossom. This blossoming will happen only if a conducive atmosphere

is created. It can never be forced. A true master does not force his

or her disciples because pure consciousness cannot force anything.

The master is like space, like the boundless sky, and space cannot

hurt you. Only the ego can force and hurt. Amma will patiently

continue to create opportunities for that inner opening, that

blossoming, to take place within her children.

The guru-disciple relationship is the highest. The bond of love

between the guru and shishya [disciple] is so powerful that one may

sometimes feel there is no guru and no shishya—all sense of

separation disappears.

 

WIE: What do you do when the ego takes hold of one of your disciples?

 

MA: Amma lovingly helps her children to realize the danger of being

under the grip of the ego, and she shows them how to get out of it.

 

WIE: Some Western psychotherapists and spiritual teachers believe

that we must develop strong egos before we seek ego transcendence.

They say that most of us have weak or wounded egos as a result of the

emotional and psychological traumas that we have suffered over the

course of our lives, and they advocate various forms of therapy to

help us build up our character, ego and sense of individuality. You

had quite a difficult childhood; you had to bear harsh treatment and

even physical abuse, and yet you transcended your ego completely.

Would you agree with these teachers that in the pursuit of

enlightenment, we first need to build up the ego before we endeavor

to transcend it?

 

MA: Most people are deeply wounded within in some way, and those

wounds have been caused by the past. Those wounds usually remain

unhealed. They are wounds not only from this life but from previous

lives as well, and no doctor or psychologist can heal them. A doctor

or psychologist can help people to cope with life to a certain

extent, in spite of those wounds, but they cannot actually heal them.

They cannot penetrate deeply enough into their own minds to remove

their own wounds, let alone penetrate deeply enough into the

patient's mind. Only a true master, who is completely free from any

limitations and who is beyond the mind, can penetrate into a person's

mind and treat all those unhealed wounds with his or her infinite

energy. Spiritual life, especially under the guidance of a satguru,

does not weaken the psyche; it strengthens it.

The ultimate cause of all emotional wounds is our separation from the

Atman, from our true nature. It may be necessary for a person to go

to a psychologist, and that is fine—but to put spirituality aside in

order to first strengthen the ego is to perpetuate that sense of

separation, and it will only lead to further suffering. What is the

use in thinking, "I will go to the doctor as soon as I feel better"?

To wait for either the inner or outer circumstances to be "just

right" before we embark on the spiritual journey is like standing on

the seashore waiting for the waves to completely subside before we

jump into the ocean. This will never happen. Every moment of life is

so utterly precious, such a rare opportunity. We should not waste it.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the insights. I had heard about her and this tells us a

lot.

 

John L.

 

, "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote:

> When You Go Beyond the Ego

> You Become an Offering to the World

>

> An Interview with

> Mata Amritanandamayi

> by Amy Edelstein

> (WIE)

[Guest guest]

on 6/12/02 11:20 AM, hrtbeat7 at hrtbeat7 wrote:

> When You Go Beyond the Ego

> You Become an Offering to the World

<snip>

> Often referring to herself in the third person, Ammachi describes the

> passion that animates her: "Each and every drop of Mother's blood,

> each and every particle of her energy is for her children

<snip>

 

=================================

 

My daughter, Madison, when she was first learning to talk, would always do

this......"Madison wants some."......"Madison wants to go too."

 

This was so cool, I thought briefly of it's usefulness as a technique.

 

love,

Shawn

[Guest guest]

I apologize for my words to those who have this woman as a Guru. But

something just doesn't feel right here to me as I was reading her

words. Just to point out a few here:

 

MA:

>Amma only disciplines those who have chosen to stay close to her,

and she only does this when they are ready to be disciplined. A

disciple is one who is willing to be disciplined. The guru first

binds the disciple with boundless, unconditional love so that when

the disciple eventually is disciplined, he or she is aware of the

presence of thatlove in all situations.

 

 

TG:

This sounds like being with a controlling abuser.

 

It is the purpose of an (emotional, verbal, or physical) abuser

to bind the other with boundless unconditional love, so when the

abuser finally *disciplines* the other, he or she is aware of the

presence of that love in all situations. Including the abuse.

 

That's their M.O.

That's what keeps the *willing* coming back.

That and their (coughunconditional love)

 

Of course, probably not in this case, but thought I'd just mention it.

 

Did Ramana fiercely deal with his devotees, as mentioned Amma does

with hers (pretty much continuously) in this interview? I really

don't know... maybe this is a 'true Master's' way.

 

(Give me the false one anyday)

 

With Love,

xxxtg

[Guest guest]

, "leteegee" <Leteegee@a...> wrote:

 

[snip]

> Did Ramana fiercely deal with his devotees, as mentioned Amma does

> with hers (pretty much continuously) in this interview? I really

> don't know... maybe this is a 'true Master's' way.

>

> (Give me the false one anyday)

>

> With Love,

> xxxtg

 

I also thought Amma's talk struck several discordant notes.

 

She's towing the standard Indian guru hyperbole about moral

conduct as if being moral in those ways makes any difference.

 

She obviously discounts or overlooks the realities of what

being brought up in the Western world entails. She operates

as if she can stuff everyone into her Hindu mold and squeeze

out realized devotees on the other end.

 

I have my doubts about this technique.

 

It just goes to show, as Sarlo points out on the Gururatings

list, one person's Goddess can be another's abusing charlatan.

 

it's all still with love--jody.

[Guest guest]

, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

> , "leteegee" <Leteegee@a...> wrote:

 

Dearest Jody,

 

Somehow, i find no discordance any longer in any of these ones who

come to us, for they all are held in my Heart as OneVoice, never

discordant, always leading into Inquiry and Love. i had had a problem

for so long with Swami Kriyananda, the disciple of Paramahansa

Yogananda who left the path of SRF, broke the vows of his he gave to

Guruji, and now, i see how Beautiful it all is, how perfectly perfect

it all is, at least i see it this way. The discordance is within

ourselves, nowhere else, is it not so? How can One anchored in Divine

Love, and we are whether we realize now or not, ever be other than

That? It matters not how or who or what others say or do as it leads

one into inquiry, the gift to us from our own Self, so how can any of

it be wrong or less than? i only know that Love Is All There is or

ever Will Be, and Knowing that, who or what can say anything but That

Love? Ah, Love, Just Love, All Love, Everywhere and Nowhere This

Love, the Abundance of Nothing, Nothing, Nothing! i Love You Dearest

Jopdyji, oh Yes, Yes to Love, for Love is All There Is...

 

LoveAlways,

Mazie

>

> [snip]

>

> > Did Ramana fiercely deal with his devotees, as mentioned Amma

does

> > with hers (pretty much continuously) in this interview? I really

> > don't know... maybe this is a 'true Master's' way.

> >

> > (Give me the false one anyday)

> >

> > With Love,

> > xxxtg

>

> I also thought Amma's talk struck several discordant notes.

>

> She's towing the standard Indian guru hyperbole about moral

> conduct as if being moral in those ways makes any difference.

>

> She obviously discounts or overlooks the realities of what

> being brought up in the Western world entails. She operates

> as if she can stuff everyone into her Hindu mold and squeeze

> out realized devotees on the other end.

>

> I have my doubts about this technique.

>

> It just goes to show, as Sarlo points out on the Gururatings

> list, one person's Goddess can be another's abusing charlatan.

>

> it's all still with love--jody.

[Guest guest]

, "leteegee" <Leteegee@a...> wrote:

 

 

.... maybe this is a 'true Master's' way.

 

 

Hi TG,

 

last night i was reading a portion of Muktananda's autobiography

(Play of Consciousness) to Mazie, in order to share with her the

Presence of Bhagavan Nityananda, a Presence that unaccountably

Breathes in our life, and the part we were considering was the

chapter on the Mystery of the relationship to the Sadguru. This is

little understood, even in so-caled spiritual circles, but the book

does shed some clarifying light on the subject, and i recommend it

for that. Many speak out on the subject reflexively, and it is useful

to consider the context before proferring opinions.

 

LoveAlways,

 

b

[Guest guest]

, "mazie_l" <sraddha54@h...> wrote:

 

always leading into Inquiry and Love

 

 

....Yes, Darling Beloved --

 

this Conversation of Being with

Itself never ends, deepening and

deepening, even unto Silence.

[Guest guest]

, "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote:

>

> last night i was reading a portion of Muktananda's autobiography

> (Play of Consciousness) to Mazie, in order to share with her the

> Presence of Bhagavan Nityananda, a Presence that unaccountably

> Breathes in our life, and the part we were considering was the

> chapter on the Mystery of the relationship to the Sadguru. This is

> little understood, even in so-caled spiritual circles, but the book

> does shed some clarifying light on the subject, and i recommend it

> for that. Many speak out on the subject reflexively, and it is

useful

> to consider the context before proferring opinions.

 

Hi b....

 

I certainly didn't mean to offend you with my observation which was

based on my understanding of and experience with Domestic Violence

and teachers that teach in this same way... and my apologies if I

did. I do appreciate your viewpoint and am glad you spoke up in

order to get more than one view of this subject to the list.

 

As a Domestic Violence Advocate/Counselor, I will continue speaking

out against any kind of violence, even if it comes from a Guru that

probably knows way more than I do about All There Is. It is easy to

yell and be 'fierce' with others - believe me, I take the easy way

out many times, and it's an ongoing unlearning situation for me. It

is much more difficult to find a better way to deal with others.

 

The book you speak about was one of my favorites, as well as

Muktananda's pretty purple books "From the Infinite to the Infinite"

(and they look so good on the bookcase too). :-)

 

Very glad to have you with us.

 

Much Love,

xxxtg

[Guest guest]

, "leteegee" <Leteegee@a...> wrote:

 

I certainly didn't mean to offend you with my observation which was

based on my understanding of and experience with Domestic Violence

and teachers that teach in this same way...

 

 

....Dear Leteegee,

 

No offense taken! LOL!!!

 

There are teachers, and there are teachers.....

 

Before one enters into such a relationship as Devotee, it has been

advised by such folks as the Dalai Lama, for example, that a good

long period of time be used to study the proposed teacher before

committing to the relationship.

 

LoveAlways,

 

b

[Guest guest]

, "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote:

>

>

> Before one enters into such a relationship as Devotee, it has been

> advised by such folks as the Dalai Lama, for example, that a good

> long period of time be used to study the proposed teacher before

> committing to the relationship.

 

Thanks! This is good advice.

That Dalai Lama is something else, huh?

 

(I saw his movie, 7 Days to Tibet) :-)

 

Cya-b,

xxxtg

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

 

Would you allow me to speak from the memory of a 'once guru'? ():-o>

Yep, such was me :-))) nothing too big, just one of those fledglings with a

fledgling centre, who at some point noticed some strange behaviour about

himself (yes, behaviour), some characteristics that are very similar to the

disciplinary practices we are discussing here about Ammachi.

 

Everything seemed OK in those days (the summer of 1978), nobody objected. It

even seemed that some form of harsh attitude was expected from me... the way

siblings can conspire to have another sibling disciplined by mom or dad. I

even used words similar to Ammachi's to justify myself... But then... one

morning it dawned on me, this behaviour that had so spuriously crept in, was

not right.

 

When I noticed this - let me call it 'technique of manipulation' - I did

not like it one bit. I needed to drop it right there.

The same night, during a visionary appearance by my dear friend

Avalokiteshvara, I was urged to drop that behaviour... and more... "For the

sake of Immanuel, stop what you are doing." he said.

I knew exactly what was meant.

 

The following Saturday morning I asked everyone to go their way...

 

'I' had some work to do.

 

You see, I actually hardly knew personally what suffering was, or fear, or

angst, or guilt, or obligations or feeling indebted. I saw it in the people

around me, but I had no real, first hand knowledge.

So... I started an experiment (there was more to this, but I want to keep

this simple). With the approval of my wife, I took on the life of a normal

Joe... It took me thirteen years to eventually break myself down...

Eventually I knew what suffering was, fear, angst, guilt, obligations,

feeling indebted as well as short changed, depression, victimization, etc.

I worked on some heavy things from early in life, (war stuff from before I

was about 1.5 years old, church stuff that happened when I was about 6 years

old) as I now could work these things out -- as I now understood the

dynamics of suffering. Getting back on top, while going through the process

of reintegration I discovered what compassion actually was... not some word

or an action, nor a feeling or a concept... No.., a very specific and

functional energy emanating from the core of unconditional love.

 

Wim

 

Discipline eventually evaporates in the presence of unconditional and

universal love ...

---

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[Guest guest]

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

 

> Discipline eventually evaporates in the presence of unconditional

and universal love ...

 

Hi Wim,

 

What you 'right' here is absolutely beautiful.

 

Thanks for sharing your story and sharing your open-mindedness that

still remained despite your Guru status. I've heard it said that

open-mindedness is one of the last things we learn on this path.

 

With Love,

xxxtg