Guest guest Posted June 13, 2002 Report Share Posted June 13, 2002 Hi B, Hope appears to keep one walking the yellow brick road until it is discovered there never was a destination to begin with and then all appears to be simply magical.. Love, Linda > ...Hi Linda! > > perhaps the hope that roads will lead somewhere other than where we > are right now is what obscures the recognition that we have never > left home. > > LoveAlways, > > b > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 15 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:08:15 -0000 > "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7 > Re: Ammachi interview > > , "mazie_l" <sraddha54@h...> wrote: > > always leading into Inquiry and Love > > > ...Yes, Darling Beloved -- > > this Conversation of Being with > Itself never ends, deepening and > deepening, even unto Silence. > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 16 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:45:49 -1000 > shawn <shawn > Re: Digest Number 1738 > > on 6/13/02 5:01 AM, Hbarrett47 at Hbarrett47 wrote: > > In a message dated 6/13/02 7:19:43 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > jyotish writes: > > I get very alarmed when I hear of any human being whose "good > side" is split off and removed from his or her "ferocious side." - > > ================================== > > We are the ones that "split" the person into sides. When you take your child > and hold her dearly and assure her of your love, do you not also scold when > she does something wrong and dangerous .....like play in the street? > > Does this mean you have a good side and a " turn me over, I'm still raw on > this side?" > > Are you people working for Bush's Ministry of Fear? > > Beware (oh,no, another beware?) of prejudice toward a heart you have no > actual contact with. > > Love Shawn > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 17 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:48:44 -1000 > shawn <shawn > Re: Re: Power dynamics, relationship, beyond > > Well said, now my head is full, > > Love, Shawn > > on 6/13/02 5:08 AM, dan330033 at dan330033 wrote: > > Relationship implies power dynamics, > whether as an extreme division of > power or through subtleties, such as tones > of voice, manipulations, slights. > > In the realm of relationship, there > are power dynamics. > > Beyond relationship, there is no > power dynamic, as no other is there. > > The "powerful figure who knows" can > be an attraction, and if that > attraction is acted out through > relationship, power dynamics > emerge -- as you well note. > > Release of the need for a relationship > with a powerful figure, as well > as release of any anxiety about the development > of such relationships, opens > as "what is beyond relationship" ... > > Deep down, there is the sense of insecurity > about suffering, thus wanting a powerful > someone who knows, who is more powerful > than "my" insecurity. > > If insecurity is opened to, it can dissolve, > and no neediness remains for a powerful figure > to attach to. > > Not the avoidance of relationship, nor > attraction to relationship -- > > Just peace and open, nonconditional. > > If love is understood as attraction, > as wanting to be submissive to, be disciplined > by, be held by another's love -- then > it yet depends on an "other" -- > > Not that this would be wrong, or out of place. > > There is nothing out of place anywhere. > > Readiness and opening are the same, > and what is opened to and the one > who opens, are the same. > > Namaste, > Dan , "Linda C" <jyotish@w...> wrote: > > Hi Tg: > > > > I, also have discomfort with the words you quote below - it is as > if the > > same words could be used in a s/m novel. One would like to think > that > > perhaps it is a problem with language and translation and that the > situation > > is such that the guru 'only teaches those who have chosen to stay > close'. > > The 'surrender of ego' can be a powerful tool in the hands of > teachers and > > we human beings are so hungry for the peace of self knowledge that > we go > > down many strange and crooked roads. > > > > Here's hoping that in the end all roads lead to home. > > > > Love, > > Linda > > > > > > > > > > > Message: 7 > > > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:01:36 -0000 > > > "leteegee" <Leteegee@a...> > > > Re: Ammachi interview > > > > > > > > > I apologize for my words to those who have this woman as a Guru. > But > > > something just doesn't feel right here to me as I was reading her > > > words. Just to point out a few here: > > > > > > MA: > > > >Amma only disciplines those who have chosen to stay close to her, > > > and she only does this when they are ready to be disciplined. A > > > disciple is one who is willing to be disciplined. The guru first > > > binds the disciple with boundless, unconditional love so that when > > > the disciple eventually is disciplined, he or she is aware of the > > > presence of thatlove in all situations. > > > > > > > > > TG: > > > This sounds like being with a controlling abuser. > > > > > > It is the purpose of an (emotional, verbal, or physical) abuser > > > to bind the other with boundless unconditional love, so when the > > > abuser finally *disciplines* the other, he or she is aware of the > > > presence of that love in all situations. Including the abuse. > > > > > > That's their M.O. > > > That's what keeps the *willing* coming back. > > > That and their (coughunconditional love) > > > > > > Of course, probably not in this case, but thought I'd just > mention it. > > > > > > Did Ramana fiercely deal with his devotees, as mentioned Amma does > > > with hers (pretty much continuously) in this interview? I really > > > don't know... maybe this is a 'true Master's' way. > > > > > > (Give me the false one anyday) > > > > > > With Love, > > > xxxtg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > __ > > > > ____________________ > __ > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Terms of Service > <> . > > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 18 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:31:56 -0700 > "Mazie Lane" <sraddha54 > Crimson Light Delights as Love > > > > [This message is not in displayable format] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 19 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:51:13 -0000 > "dan330033" <dan330033 > Re: Fw: Maharshi - Creation - [7] > > , "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote: > > , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > > > There is no such thing as perceiving the > > universe apart from Self, as > > Self has no other. > > > > > > > > ....your friends must be grateful to be your friends! > > > > LoveAlways, > > > > b > > Nope. > > No conditions pertain. > > Musty love, > Dan > > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 20 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:54:35 -0000 > "dan330033" <dan330033 > Re: Power dynamics, relationship, beyond > > , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > > Well said, now my head is full, > > > > Love, Shawn > > Here is a key for the > release valve! > > @-> > > Love, > Dan > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 21 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:41:16 -1000 > shawn <shawn > words > > > > Some are scrambled > > some are boiled > > some are soft > > and others spoiled > > Eggs you say? > > and I give you a crack > > You do not like them > > this way or that > > but if I take them > > you'll want them back. > > > just words, > > Shawn > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 22 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:45:21 -0000 > "leteegee" <Leteegee > Re: Ammachi interview > > , "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote: > > > > last night i was reading a portion of Muktananda's autobiography > > (Play of Consciousness) to Mazie, in order to share with her the > > Presence of Bhagavan Nityananda, a Presence that unaccountably > > Breathes in our life, and the part we were considering was the > > chapter on the Mystery of the relationship to the Sadguru. This is > > little understood, even in so-caled spiritual circles, but the book > > does shed some clarifying light on the subject, and i recommend it > > for that. Many speak out on the subject reflexively, and it is > useful > > to consider the context before proferring opinions. > > Hi b.... > > I certainly didn't mean to offend you with my observation which was > based on my understanding of and experience with Domestic Violence > and teachers that teach in this same way... and my apologies if I > did. I do appreciate your viewpoint and am glad you spoke up in > order to get more than one view of this subject to the list. > > As a Domestic Violence Advocate/Counselor, I will continue speaking > out against any kind of violence, even if it comes from a Guru that > probably knows way more than I do about All There Is. It is easy to > yell and be 'fierce' with others - believe me, I take the easy way > out many times, and it's an ongoing unlearning situation for me. It > is much more difficult to find a better way to deal with others. > > The book you speak about was one of my favorites, as well as > Muktananda's pretty purple books "From the Infinite to the Infinite" > (and they look so good on the bookcase too). :-) > > Very glad to have you with us. > > Much Love, > xxxtg > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 23 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:36:42 -1000 > shawn <shawn > Re: Re: Power dynamics, relationship, beyond > > on 6/13/02 9:54 AM, dan330033 at dan330033 wrote: > > > Here is a key for the > release valve! > > @-> > > Love, > Dan > > ================= > > Thanks Dan, I'll try it..hummmm.....let's see one pointedness, ajna third > eye > > concentrate, cocentrate....zzzzzzzzzz @@@#^**pppfft!** > > > ahhhh, now i see > > while my love and I were out dancing > > I'd mistaken my love for a passing fancy, > > (turning to look at my partner, myself) but who are you? > > it seems my vision was but glancing! > > love, > > Shawn > > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 24 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:04:20 -0000 > "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7 > Re: Ammachi interview > > , "leteegee" <Leteegee@a...> wrote: > > I certainly didn't mean to offend you with my observation which was > based on my understanding of and experience with Domestic Violence > and teachers that teach in this same way... > > > ...Dear Leteegee, > > No offense taken! LOL!!! > > There are teachers, and there are teachers..... > > Before one enters into such a relationship as Devotee, it has been > advised by such folks as the Dalai Lama, for example, that a good > long period of time be used to study the proposed teacher before > committing to the relationship. > > LoveAlways, > > b > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 25 > Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:16:04 -0000 > "leteegee" <Leteegee > Re: Digest Number 1738 > > , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > > on 6/13/02 5:01 AM, Hbarrett47@a... at Hbarrett47@a... wrote: > > > > In a message dated 6/13/02 7:19:43 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > > jyotish@w... writes: > > > > I get very alarmed when I hear of any human being whose "good > > side" is split off and removed from his or her "ferocious side." - > > > > ================================== > > > > We are the ones that "split" the person into sides. When you take > your child > > and hold her dearly and assure her of your love, do you not also > scold when > > she does something wrong and dangerous .....like play in the street? > > Hi Shawn, > > I certainly hope it is explained to her why she should not play in > the street and what could happen if she does. When my son puts > himself in a dangerous situation, I have no need to scold. But I do > sit down and explain what could happen if he continues on this path. > Granted, he is older than a child, but I do the same with my 2 year > old grandson Kain. > > When my beautiful daughter-in-law came home from work to find Kain > had colored every possible color crayon on almost every wall in their > home (while under dad's care LOL), you know what her first words > were? "Oh Kain! This is sooo beautiful! You are so creative!!" > She oooo'd and ahhhh'd for awhile about all of it. Then she sat him > down and explained so gently why he couldn't write on the walls, what > the walls were for, etc. She then showed him the proper way to color > by taping pieces of paper all over the walls and told him to draw all > he wants on the paper. No scolding was involved. He never wrote on > the walls again because he understood. > > If even a 2 year old can understand, why wouldn't an adult? > > > Are you people working for Bush's Ministry of Fear? > > LOL! I probably do, but hey it keeps the drama going. > > > > > Beware (oh,no, another beware?) of prejudice toward a heart you > have no actual contact with. > > Yep, you are right -- I have had no contact with Amma. Probably > never will as a disciple, as I made my choice when I read the > interview. Is that prejudice or choice? She'd probably make a > lovely friend though. > > Thanks for your thoughts, > > Much Love, > xxxtg > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2002 Report Share Posted June 13, 2002 , "Linda C" <jyotish@w...> wrote: >Hope appears to keep one walking the yellow brick road until it is discovered there never was a destination to begin with and then all appears to be simply magical.. ....Hi Linda! Sometimes the very death of such hope is the beginning of awakening to the discovery you speak of, above. In a related stream, here's something you might enjoy that i once filed from another list (i recall it was from NDS), written by Dan Berkow, and perhaps he won't mind if i paste it here: THE WONDER OF FUTILITY Dan Berkow Most of the world ignores "This", seeing no use or value for "This". Most of the world values tangible things, status, power, or enjoyable or rewarding experiences. Thus, through ignorance, "This" which is not tangible nor an experience is never noticed. Of those who begin to break through ignorance, many continue on fruitless paths in pursuit of This, believing they "see glimpses" and thus generate beliefs that reinforce their vain pursuit. Others vainly claim they are "being This", lost in self-delusion and their own positive conceptual affirmations. Still others futilely try to negate what is "not-This", never able to reach an end to that which must be negated. Only when there is no investment in ignorance, and when the utter futility of all approaches and non-approaches is seen, will there be the dropping away of avoidance, useless efforts, and the unrewarding pursuit or self-conscious non-pursuit of an imagined effortless mode of being. Pursuit and the attempt to gain This through non-pursuit are both grounded in thought. Thoughts are understandable only in the context of prior thoughts. Thus, thought ultimately has no ground. Experiences register in the context of previous experiences. Thus, experience ultimately has no ground. Similarly, feelings relate to prior feelings, and sensations are interpreted against the background of other sensations. "This" which has nothing prior to itself cannot be experienced, intuited, felt, sensed, remembered, or cognized. To speak of "This" is completely paradoxical, because speech about "This" always occurs as simply more speech, thought, and reference to experience. Because such speech is paradoxical, some consider it ludicrous. However, This Itself is neither paradoxical nor absurd. It is merely speaking of This that is paradox and absurdity. Such speech has never occurred for any meaningful reason other than to bring attention to the prevalence of ignorance. It is futile to call It "That" which experiences, remembers, or cognizes, or to call It "consciousness", "awareness", "Self", or "God" -- all of these concepts are merely ways to formulate an idea and a relationship to an idea, more thoughts interpreted against the background of other thoughts. Similarly, saying there is "no one" who is doer or cognizer simply contributes additional thought-statements about reality, depending as do other thoughts on a prior thought context for meaning. Negating thoughts and concepts will never lead to It. The activity of negating depends on something to be negated. This very dependency doesn't allow This with nothing prior to Itself to emerge from the activities of negation. Similarly, inquiry is dependent on a question being there, and meditation is dependent on the context in which meditation has meaning. That which has nothing beyond Itself will never be found, constructed, nor recognized - and neither inquiry nor meditation/contemplation will lead to This. One may seek a teacher or spiritual path, but such will only provide more sensation, thought, and experience. One may seek to let go, but this activity will always depend on there being something to let go. One may attempt to do nothing, but passivity will have no power to interfere with thought seeking after thought, experience leading to accumulation of further experience, etc. Indeed, there cannot be shown to be anything "out there" beyond sensation and thought that is being sensed and thought about. Anything said to be "out there" is a thought interpretation about sensory or intuitive experience. The so-called "reality beyond" or "reality out there" turns out to be more data in the realm of concept and experience. Thus, claims about "'Something' beyond thought and sensation" are as absurd and paradoxical as any other speech about This. When nothing is "placed 'out there'", there is nothing "in here". Then, nothing can be said to be or not to be. Then, neither concepts of death, nor birth, nor deathlessness, nor birthlessness apply. This is beyond any statements, activities, or inactivities. Now is recognized the futility of any efforts and non-efforts intended to find This, be This, reveal This, or negate what is not This. There is literally nothing else at this point other than recognizing the utter futility of all efforts and non-efforts, cognitions, feelings, and experiences. As far as this statement itself being additional futile verbiage interpreted in the context of prior words and ideas - it is so. This statement itself cannot lead to "This" any more than can any other statement, question, negation, or assertion. Neither a path nor a pathless way of being will reveal "This". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2002 Report Share Posted June 13, 2002 on 6/13/02 1:11 PM, hrtbeat7 at hrtbeat7 wrote: regarding: THE WONDER OF FUTILITY ==================== seems to compliment, "going going gone" very nicely! What beautiful dancing you two do! It makes me happy for flesh! love, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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