Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 The Jaina tradition as well as most yogic traditions hold nonviolence (Ahimsa) to be the cardinal principle. This is reflected in the Guru-Disciple relationship as well. Ramana Maharshi was fond of saying "Ahimsa Param Dharma". Once my teacher's teacher, an extremely gentle man, became angry at the monks for something they had done and scolded them. Later that night, the monks heard a sound on the door. Upon opening the door, they saw the guru standing there with a lamp. My teacher and the other monks prostrated as their teacher came in. My teacher's teacher started to apologize for scolding them earlier in the day. My teacher said, "Guruji, you were right to reprimand us for what we did. We had all actually forgotten about it and were sound asleep." My teacher's teacher smiled and said, "Yes, you were all sound asleep. The problem is not your sleep but mine. I cannot sleep until I have asked for your forgiveness." Love to all Harsha With gratitude Harsha. The forgetting is so strong so it is with de-light that I am re-minded of this truth and light. Love & Light, Michael At 09:02 AM 6/12/2002, you wrote: Thanks, Harsha. Ramana certainly spoke clearly and directly to the question. Love, Dan > People speak of visions and white lights and spiritual > and psychic experiences. These are beautiful things > and indications of meditative practices at some time. > > Those who know the source that lights all experiences, > spiritual and otherwise, remain unmoved by such > descriptions. > > Advaita Vedanta declares without compromise. Atman Is > Brhaman! Thou are That! > > With what white light or spiritual experience shall I > now be impressed? > > Once Sri Ramana was asked about traveling to different > planes and having visions. > > The Sage of Arunachala asked the questioner something > like, "What are you experiencing now and how is it > different?" > > All techniques fall at the feet of the Sage and become > meaningless. > > Love to all > Harsha > > > ===== > /join > > > > > > > > > > - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup. Sponsor /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/2002 /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 Hi Harsha -- Thank you for pointing to the importance of nonviolence. I totally agree. People certainly have different interpretations of what violence is, and that means they will differ about their understandings of nonviolence. Yet, if we try to impose an idea of what nonviolence is, we may be acting in an apparently violent way due to our imposition. The nature of reality, being undivided, is nonviolent. Nothing can be imposed when there is no one apart to impose anything. There are volcanoes erupting and hurricanes destroying, species that devour other species, species that kill others of their species or even devour their own young, and there are suns going nova and decimating the ecosystems on all planets of those suns. Yet, the universe, being undivided, is nonviolent. In Hindu mythology, creation, sustenance, and destruction are all treated as divine. Nonviolence is understanding in which there is no one apart to understand. This nondivision is the heart of nonviolence. Love, Dan > The Jaina tradition as well as most yogic traditions hold nonviolence (Ahimsa) to be the cardinal principle. This is reflected in the Guru-Disciple relationship as well. Ramana Maharshi was fond of saying "Ahimsa Param Dharma". > > Once my teacher's teacher, an extremely gentle man, became angry at the monks for something they had done and scolded them. > > Later that night, the monks heard a sound on the door. Upon opening the door, they saw the guru standing there with a lamp. My teacher and the other monks prostrated as their teacher came in. > > My teacher's teacher started to apologize for scolding them earlier in the day. My teacher said, "Guruji, you were right to reprimand us for what we did. We had all actually forgotten about it and were sound asleep." > > My teacher's teacher smiled and said, "Yes, you were all > sound asleep. The problem is not your sleep but mine. I cannot sleep until I have asked for your forgiveness." > > Love to all > Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Dearest Dan: Well Said and we agree. All violence is in perceived boundaries only. The Guru-Disciple relationship is a reflection of a conceptual boundary, in my view. When the boundary is rigid, the possibility of abuse is there. Hey, just one man's opinion. Lots of love to everyone Harsha > > "dan330033" <dan330033 > 2002/06/14 Fri AM 11:11:11 EDT > > Re: Gurus and Violence > > Hi Harsha -- > > Thank you for pointing to the importance of > nonviolence. > > I totally agree. > > People certainly have different interpretations > of what violence is, and that means they > will differ about their understandings of > nonviolence. > > Yet, if we try to impose an idea of what > nonviolence is, we may be acting > in an apparently violent way > due to our imposition. > > The nature of reality, being undivided, > is nonviolent. Nothing can be imposed > when there is no one apart to impose anything. > > There are volcanoes erupting and hurricanes > destroying, species that > devour other species, species that > kill others of their species or > even devour their own young, and there > are suns going nova and decimating the ecosystems > on all planets of those suns. > > Yet, the universe, being undivided, is nonviolent. > > In Hindu mythology, creation, sustenance, and destruction > are all treated as divine. > > Nonviolence is understanding in which there is no > one apart to understand. This nondivision is > the heart of nonviolence. > > Love, > Dan > > > > The Jaina tradition as well as most yogic traditions hold > nonviolence (Ahimsa) to be the cardinal principle. This is reflected > in the Guru-Disciple relationship as well. Ramana Maharshi was fond > of saying "Ahimsa Param Dharma". > > > > Once my teacher's teacher, an extremely gentle man, became angry at > the monks for something they had done and scolded them. > > > > Later that night, the monks heard a sound on the door. Upon opening > the door, they saw the guru standing there with a lamp. My teacher > and the other monks prostrated as their teacher came in. > > > > My teacher's teacher started to apologize for scolding them earlier > in the day. My teacher said, "Guruji, you were right to reprimand us > for what we did. We had all actually forgotten about it and were > sound asleep." > > > > My teacher's teacher smiled and said, "Yes, you were all > > sound asleep. The problem is not your sleep but mine. I cannot > sleep until I have asked for your forgiveness." > > > > Love to all > > Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > Hi Harsha -- > > Thank you for pointing to the importance of > nonviolence. > > I totally agree. > > People certainly have different interpretations > of what violence is, and that means they > will differ about their understandings of > nonviolence. > > Yet, if we try to impose an idea of what > nonviolence is, we may be acting > in an apparently violent way > due to our imposition. I agree that to state what nonviolence is can be an imposition and invitation to violence. > The nature of reality, being undivided, > is nonviolent. Nothing can be imposed > when there is no one apart to impose anything. I consider it your assertion, that while Reality is undivided, it is Nonviolent. > There are volcanoes erupting and hurricanes > destroying, species that > devour other species, species that > kill others of their species or > even devour their own young, and there > are suns going nova and decimating the ecosystems > on all planets of those suns. I believe this is evidence that the nature of the Universe is constant change, transmutation of matter/energy or the shifting of forms. > Yet, the universe, being undivided, is nonviolent. > > In Hindu mythology, creation, sustenance, and destruction > are all treated as divine. > > Nonviolence is understanding in which there is no > one apart to understand. This nondivision is > the heart of nonviolence. It is the Self or Pure Consciousness that neither imposes on nor resists the constant change that it is. Does Pure Consciousness, which is undivided, characterize? Does it characterize itself, it's constant change as Nonviolent? Does understanding bring about a Nonviolence which does not impose or invite Violence, or is that understanding a perception? > Love, > Dan be well > > > The Jaina tradition as well as most yogic traditions hold > nonviolence (Ahimsa) to be the cardinal principle. This is reflected > in the Guru-Disciple relationship as well. Ramana Maharshi was fond > of saying "Ahimsa Param Dharma". > > > > Once my teacher's teacher, an extremely gentle man, became angry at > the monks for something they had done and scolded them. > > > > Later that night, the monks heard a sound on the door. Upon opening > the door, they saw the guru standing there with a lamp. My teacher > and the other monks prostrated as their teacher came in. > > > > My teacher's teacher started to apologize for scolding them earlier > in the day. My teacher said, "Guruji, you were right to reprimand us > for what we did. We had all actually forgotten about it and were > sound asleep." > > > > My teacher's teacher smiled and said, "Yes, you were all > > sound asleep. The problem is not your sleep but mine. I cannot > sleep until I have asked for your forgiveness." > > > > Love to all > > Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 on 6/15/02 2:41 PM, d_agenda2000 at d_agenda2000 wrote: > There are volcanoes erupting and hurricanes > destroying, species that > devour other species, species that > kill others of their species or > even devour their own young, and there > are suns going nova and decimating the ecosystems > on all planets of those suns. I believe this is evidence that the nature of the Universe is constant change, transmutation of matter/energy or the shifting of forms. > Yet, the universe, being undivided, is nonviolent. ============================ I missed something, species killing other species is not violent? What are you talking about? Namaste, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 6/15/02 2:41 PM, d_agenda2000 at d_agenda2000 wrote: > > > > > There are volcanoes erupting and hurricanes > > destroying, species that > > devour other species, species that > > kill others of their species or > > even devour their own young, and there > > are suns going nova and decimating the ecosystems > > on all planets of those suns. > > I believe this is evidence that the nature of the Universe is > constant change, transmutation of matter/energy or the shifting of > forms. > > > Yet, the universe, being undivided, is nonviolent. > ============================ > > I missed something, species killing other species is not violent? > > What are you talking about? > > Namaste, > > Shawn Hey Shawn, With regard to Dan's logic, I'm still not drawn to consider the Universe nonviolent. Cosmic Consciousness is changeless change, it is not violent or nonviolent. An explanation of The Self/CC that draws on the violence/nonviolence dichotomy (or even denies such a dichotomy) and concludes that The Self is nonviolent,for me, only flirts with the notions that we have about Man's relationship to Man. I think the implication that that relationship is Nonviolent is not supported by the reasoning. Jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 on 6/15/02 5:22 PM, d_agenda2000 at d_agenda2000 wrote: Hey Shawn, With regard to Dan's logic, I'm still not drawn to consider the Universe nonviolent. Cosmic Consciousness is changeless change, it is not violent or nonviolent. An explanation of The Self/CC that draws on the violence/nonviolence dichotomy (or even denies such a dichotomy) and concludes that The Self is nonviolent,for me, only flirts with the notions that we have about Man's relationship to Man. I think the implication that that relationship is Nonviolent is not supported by the reasoning. Jimbo ===================== Jimbo, What happened to Dan,.....you guys have the same mail box? Did he non violently change into you, give violent birth to you, or did you just eat him? Unless there is some obvious "perception" for lack of a nondual word, of "only Being", then I would have to say the entire cosmos is quite violent in its apparent movement, thus Kali..... love, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Hi Harsha -- Enjoying this resonant moment here with you, and your very clear and precise sharing of truth. Indeed, this nonviolent truth is all there is, boundless. And "within" this boundless, boundaries form allowing perception as livingness. If boundaries are rigidified, perception stagnates, and a conceptual orientation toward conflict, violence may be maintained. The "perceptual norm" of imposition is often so deeply assumed as to be considered simply a fact (of religion, politics, relationship, business, science). And, as I think you implied: this rigidification and objectification can be true within any perceived relationship. Thanks, love to you and all -- namaste, Dan > Dearest Dan: > > Well Said and we agree. All violence is in perceived boundaries only. > > The Guru-Disciple relationship is a reflection of a conceptual boundary, in my view. When the boundary is rigid, the possibility of abuse is there. > > Hey, just one man's opinion. > > Lots of love to everyone > Harsha > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 > I believe this is evidence that the nature of the Universe is > constant change, transmutation of matter/energy or the shifting of > forms. Yes. There are no independent, autonomous forms. > It is the Self or Pure Consciousness that neither imposes on nor > resists the constant change that it is. > Does Pure Consciousness, which is undivided, characterize? Does it > characterize itself, it's constant change as Nonviolent? Does > understanding bring about a Nonviolence which does not impose or > invite Violence, or is that understanding a perception? Words don't apply "here" -- and reading these words is also a perception. It is what it is -- not-an-it :-) Peace. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 > I missed something, species killing other species is not violent? > > What are you talking about? > > Namaste, > > Shawn Nonviolence as which totality is known as totality. Namaste, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 To say truth is nonviolent is to say that it's not classifiable as violent. It also is to say that truth doesn't involve the imposition of an expectation nor a center of control regarding outcomes. This is not saying that truth is a kind of relationship, a nonviolent relationship opposed to a violent relationship. It is saying that truth is beyond one thing relating to another thing. The precise statement would be: reality is neither violent nor nonviolent, nor both, nor neither. And you can also be precise and say, "neither consciousness nor nonconsciousness nor both, nor neither," and "neither truth nor illusion, nor both, nor neither," but trying to talk by constantly using Nagarjuna's fourfold negation gets kinda stale :-) Uncosmically, Dan > Hey Shawn, > > With regard to Dan's logic, I'm still not drawn to consider the > Universe nonviolent. > Cosmic Consciousness is changeless change, it is not violent or > nonviolent. > An explanation of The Self/CC that draws on the violence/nonviolence > dichotomy (or even denies such a dichotomy) and concludes that The > Self is nonviolent,for me, only flirts with the notions that we have > about Man's relationship to Man. > > I think the implication that that relationship is Nonviolent is not > supported by the reasoning. > > Jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 About violence..., in human nature there is something that seems to be absent from the rest of nature... If I can say it just quickly and roughly... (Going swimming in a minute.) In human nature we also "violate". Humans may not even be physically violent... but we can so badly violate someone else's integrity in "perfectly non physically violent" ways. Even using words that literally may express the opposite... verbal sneer and snipe... such things..., innuendo... The strange kind of sarcastic humour we can display. And when we humans combine violence and violation, I don't think it can get any worse... That seems to me something that we don't see in nature other than human nature... Do we see animals torture each other the way we humans do? The "playing" of a cat with a mouse is not the same as what we do...is it? Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: but trying to talk by constantly using Nagarjuna's fourfold negation gets kinda stale .....um hum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: (Going swimming in a minute.) ....what kind of bathing suit does one wear for that kind of swimming? LoveAlways, b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Hi bob Wim: (Going swimming in a minute.) Bob: ....what kind of bathing suit does one wear for that kind of swimming? It is a very special suit, made of the purest *space* age material... it shows all you've got. It goes under the brand name "no-suit-at-all" tm. However... When one fits oneself into such a suit, it makes the contents disappear on sight. The vestiges of one's being disappear almost immediately. The lasts glimpse that one notices about oneself is the brand name which now reads "not-suitable" tm. Wim suitably unsuitable /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 , "mazie_l" <sraddha54@h...> wrote: > , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > but > trying to talk by constantly using Nagarjuna's > fourfold negation gets kinda stale > > > > > ....um hum %%%%%%%%%%%% neither um nor hum, nor ... oops, there I go again! somebody slap me! :-) Love, Um Hum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > To say truth is nonviolent is to say > that it's not classifiable as violent. > It also is to say that truth doesn't > involve the imposition of an expectation > nor a center of control regarding outcomes. AHA! "The truth will Set somebody Free" That somebody is me Does not hurt a wee bit It's Nonviolent Amen (Do Zen masters still wack recalcitrant No-mind wannabes?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 , "d_agenda2000" <d_agenda2000> wrote: > , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > To say truth is nonviolent is to say > > that it's not classifiable as violent. > > It also is to say that truth doesn't > > involve the imposition of an expectation > > nor a center of control regarding outcomes. > > AHA! "The truth will Set somebody Free" > That somebody is me > Does not hurt a wee bit > It's Nonviolent > > Amen Very so! > > (Do Zen masters still wack recalcitrant No-mind wannabes?) Yes, to show that they are not a recalcitrant no-mind wannabe. I mean, we need to know who is who around here ... don't we? :-) Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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