Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 Understanding and Recognizing the simplicity of Pure Being that stares It Self as It Self is spontaneous when investment in becoming something or appearing as something dries up. As long as one is caught up and invested in a role of teacher, student, mystic, profound thinker, avatar, great soul, great guru, etc., one misses the clarity of one's own presence. There is no freedom other than the freedom to be oneself. It lifts all burdens. Who are these gurus trying to impress with their techniques and methods to improve others? Instead of interviewing the gurus, we should interview their spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends/ and get the real story! :-). Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 Oh Harsha .... Wim PS. Did you have to write that? I will probably spend the whole day answering your post. You did hit the quintessential nail right on the head! Now to find out, where that nail was situated! harsha [harsha] Thursday, June 13, 2002 11:05 PM Guru stuff Understanding and Recognizing the simplicity of Pure Being that stares It Self as It Self is spontaneous when investment in becoming something or appearing as something dries up. As long as one is caught up and invested in a role of teacher, student, mystic, profound thinker, avatar, great soul, great guru, etc., one misses the clarity of one's own presence. There is no freedom other than the freedom to be oneself. It lifts all burdens. Who are these gurus trying to impress with their techniques and methods to improve others? Instead of interviewing the gurus, we should interview their spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends/ and get the real story! :-). Love to all Harsha /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 Hi Harsha, When I read your email on "Guru stuff", one of the first things that came up in me was, "Oh Harsha, it would have been better if you would not have posted that email." Then came up, "He would not have send it, if he could not have send it,." Then I knew, "This is all about freedom." But to be honest, I also wanted to write, "Harsha, you've got a chip on your shoulder." :-) Obviously I did not answer any of that, :-)))) I just wrote: >>> Oh Harsha .... Wim PS. Did you have to write that? I will probably spend the whole day answering your post. You did hit the quintessential nail right on the head! Now to find out, where that nail was situated! <<< --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Oh Harsha > > ... > > > Wim > > PS. > Did you have to write that? > I will probably spend the whole day answering your post. > You did hit the quintessential nail right on the head! > Now to find out, where that nail was situated! Right smack on top of your identification with yourself as a teacher. with love, believe it or not--jody. > > harsha@c... [harsha@c...] > Thursday, June 13, 2002 11:05 PM > > Guru stuff > > > Understanding and Recognizing the simplicity of Pure Being that stares It > Self as It Self is spontaneous when investment in becoming something or > appearing as something dries up. > > As long as one is caught up and invested in a role of teacher, student, > mystic, profound thinker, avatar, great soul, great guru, etc., one misses > the clarity of one's own presence. > > There is no freedom other than the freedom to be oneself. It lifts all > burdens. > > Who are these gurus trying to impress with their techniques and methods to > improve others? Instead of interviewing the gurus, we should interview their > spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends/ and get the real story! :-). > > Love to all > Harsha > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 Hi Jody, I wrote to Harsha: >>> You did hit the quintessential nail right on the head! Now to find out, where that nail was situated! <<< You wrote: >>> Right smack on top of your identification with yourself as a teacher. with love, believe it or not--jody. <<< Of course, Jody :-))) "Who is without sin..." may now lovingly throw the next stone, or take the next hit. :-))) All this lovely sniping aside :-))) I am glad Jody, that you noticed the self implication in my post! I worked hard at it! Now, do you also see it in yours and in Harsha's and in all of these kind of posts? Wim Will it never end...? PS Jody, you helped me save a lot of time, I did not have to spend all whole day on an answer to Harsha. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 , wrote: Who are these gurus trying to impress with their techniques and methods to improve others? Instead of interviewing the gurus, we should interview their spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends/ and get the real story! :-). ....Greetings, Dear Brother! A Teacher that Mazie and i are seeing, and whom we have a very high regard for, is named Adyashanti. The following is an excerpt from an interview with him that appears in the book "The Awakening West" by Lynn Marie & John Lumiere: Interviewer: We've talked to your wife! {Laughter} {Referring to a Zen saying that if you want to know how enlightened the Zen Master is, ask his wife.} And we've also talked to your mom and dad! Adyashanti: Well, I am in a very interesting position as a spiritual teacher in that I have my aunt, my wife, my mother and my father as students. These are all the people who knew me well before I got into spiritual life and know me well now. They know all the personality traits, some of which are quite quirky and funny, but these are people who truly know me. I have never had the luxury of being able to fake it because the people who are closest to me know otherwise. Interviewer: So, having your family as your students has been a gift for you. Adyashanti: It has been a real gift. I'd feel very uncomfortable saying one thing in satsang and then coming home and being a complete S.O.B. If someone comes to know you as a spiritual teacher, it's easy to sort of consciously or unconsciously justify whatever your behavior is. But, you can't pull the wool over someone's eyes if you came out of that person's body and they changed your diapers. They know better. So, it's been a real gift. Adya's website is: www.zen-satsang.org LoveAlways, b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Jody, > > I wrote to Harsha: > >>> You did hit the quintessential nail right on the head! > Now to find out, where that nail was situated! <<< > > You wrote: > >>> Right smack on top of your identification with yourself > as a teacher. > > with love, believe it or not--jody. <<< > > Of course, Jody :-))) > > "Who is without sin..." may now lovingly throw the next > stone, or take the next hit. :-))) Hey, I'm no angel, that's for sure. However, I'm not presenting myself to others as a teacher either. > All this lovely sniping aside :-))) > I am glad Jody, that you noticed the self implication in > my post! I worked hard at it! > Now, do you also see it in yours and in Harsha's and in > all of these kind of posts? What I see Harsha doing is expressing a sentiment I share. I didn't see it aimed at anyone, but based on your reaction it would seem to have hit something. > Wim > Will it never end...? That depends on you. > PS > Jody, you helped me save a lot of time, I did not have > to spend all whole day on an answer to Harsha. Then I'll make that my official good deed of the day. love--jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Hi Jody, I asked: >>> Will it never end...? <<< You answered: >>> That depends on you. <<< No Jody, it does not just depend on me, it depends on all of us who keep posturing as 'warners', and that includes me and you and emails such as Harsha's. Here is part of 's own preamble: >>>Discussion of various teachers and teachings can also be enriching as long as there is mutual respect and a feeling of amity in the conversation. <<< >>> ...What I see Harsha doing is expressing a sentiment I share. I didn't see it aimed at anyone,... <<< So why posting it then? >>> ... I didn't see it aimed at anyone... <<< That is right, exactly as you say, you did not see that. That is the problem with not seeing... Stuff may be there... but one is not seeing it. What is the title again of that Spanish movie on which Tom Cruise's "Vanilla Sky" was based, oh yes, "Abre los Ojos", "Open your eyes." Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Jody, > > I asked: > >>> Will it never end...? <<< > > You answered: > >>> That depends on you. <<< > > No Jody, it does not just depend on me, it depends on > all of us who keep posturing as 'warners', and that > includes me and you and emails such as Harsha's. I'm just expressing opinions. If you take them to be warnings then that's your business. > Here is part of 's own preamble: > >>>Discussion of various teachers and teachings > can also be enriching as long as there is mutual > respect and a feeling of amity in the conversation. > <<< You raise a good point Wim. If you don't want me to comment on what you write then I'll stop. > >>> ...What I see Harsha doing is expressing a > sentiment I share. I didn't > see it aimed at anyone,... <<< > > So why posting it then? To express an opinion about a topic which forms the basis of substantial fetters to understanding, which is the myth of the siddhi-enabled teacher and his/her stories of incredible spiritual experiences, as if they meant anything at all. > >>> ... I didn't see it aimed at anyone... <<< > > That is right, exactly as you say, you did not see that. > That is the problem with not seeing... > Stuff may be there... but one is not seeing it. I think you're making yourself a victim in this case, something I've done to myself up until fairly recently. If you don't want to be the victim then you've got to decide not to be and ignore anything that's telling you you are. > What is the title again of that Spanish movie on > which Tom Cruise's "Vanilla Sky" was based, oh yes, > "Abre los Ojos", "Open your eyes." > > Wim My eyes saw an expression and a reaction to that expression that was very telling. But you're right and I'll mind my own business from now on. love--jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Hi Jody, You are saying that your post about Harsha's expression of a sentiment was to: >>> ... express an opinion about a topic which forms the basis of substantial fetters to understanding, which is the myth of the siddhi-enabled teacher and his/her stories of incredible spiritual experiences, as if they meant anything at all.<<< Jody, you say that you are expressing an opinion. Well, I was wondering about that. An opinion, according to a good dictionary, implies a well thought out conclusion which is yet still open to dispute. If an opinion were not open to dispute it would not be an opinion, would it? Opinions are part of a reasoned and reasonable dialogue between two or more humans who are attempting to find consensus. If that consensus appears not to be possible then there was no real dialogue, nor a real dispute to begin with, then there must have been an a-priori fixed position with one or more of the parties taking part in the dispute. Which then means that one or more opinions expressed were not opinions but dogmatic statements or entrenched positions. Now what do you have? An opinion which allows for moving towards each other or a dogmatic statement which allows no flexibility? Jody, if this were not about reality, I would say let it be, but it is. >>> the myth of the siddhi-enabled teacher and his/her stories of incredible spiritual experiences, as if they meant anything at all <<< This is the topic, is it not? A pretty unyielding characterization it seems to me, not much room to move within such an evaluation. Or is it a global devaluation? Sure there are cases to be concerned about, but we have talked about all this so many times before, can we now finally leave it alone and live up to the list's preamble... If the preamble means anything at all, and welcomes discussion in amity of various teachings, then why clobber any discussion right off the bat with a 'template response' if the smell of a certain teaching is not akin to Ramana's? Sure you are concerned, and you have expressed it often enough now, but are you not getting as concerned as a mother who will not allow even the slightest movement of a baby to prevent it from bumping into anything... This baby will not walk... I have actually met such a case... We killed the 'mother' :-) Both are doing OK now. Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 I want to apologize for my Gurus and Stuff post and I understand that it seems to have offended some devotees. I am really sorry. My irreverence is really reverence at the core for the beauty and love of truth. I don't know what else to say except, please give me another chance, although I am not sure I can change the way I express myself at this point. We have a diverse list where people give many different perspectives and none need to be taken seriously, including mine of course. Please take nothing as criticism of a path, guru, practice. It is all just fun and play, at least for me. We are all just sharing and living out life the way it seems right and natural and best for us. Lots and lots and lots of love. God bless you all with love and peace and all the best things in life. Harsha > > Wim Borsboom <wim > 2002/06/14 Fri AM 11:12:54 EDT > > RE: Guru stuff > > Oh Harsha > > ... > > > Wim > > PS. > Did you have to write that? > I will probably spend the whole day answering your post. > You did hit the quintessential nail right on the head! > Now to find out, where that nail was situated! > > > harsha [harsha] > Thursday, June 13, 2002 11:05 PM > > Guru stuff > > > Understanding and Recognizing the simplicity of Pure Being that stares It > Self as It Self is spontaneous when investment in becoming something or > appearing as something dries up. > > As long as one is caught up and invested in a role of teacher, student, > mystic, profound thinker, avatar, great soul, great guru, etc., one misses > the clarity of one's own presence. > > There is no freedom other than the freedom to be oneself. It lifts all > burdens. > > Who are these gurus trying to impress with their techniques and methods to > improve others? Instead of interviewing the gurus, we should interview their > spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends/ and get the real story! :-). > > Love to all > Harsha > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Dear Harsha, You wished us: >>> Lots and lots and lots of love. God bless you all with love and peace and all the best things in life.<<< Likewise Harsha, > Understanding and Recognizing the simplicity of Pure Being that stares It > Self as It Self is spontaneous when investment in becoming something or > appearing as something dries up. That is right, so right, Harsha! Love as always, Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: [snip] > >>> the myth of the siddhi-enabled teacher and his/her > stories of incredible spiritual experiences, as if > they meant anything at all <<< > > This is the topic, is it not? > A pretty unyielding characterization it seems to me, > not much room to move within such an evaluation. Or > is it a global devaluation? Amazing things might happen in the course of one's life, but I am convinced that siddhis are primarily a fabrication of myth. I have seen no evidence for them in any of my spiritual mentors, none of whom recommend the exploration of them in any case. Siddhis are a trap pure and simple. The trap is this: The *I* of "I am able to manifest siddhis" is the false I. Every time. What's more, the idea of having or obtaining siddhis strengthens attachment to this "I". Whenever the topics of siddhis comes up, I feel compelled to offer this view. If you have a better view then you should express it. However, don't count on any synthesis occurring. > Sure there are cases to be concerned about, > but we have talked about allthis so many times > before, can we now finally leave it alone and > live up tothe list's preamble...If the preamble > means anything at all, and welcomes discussion > in amity of various teachings, then why clobber > any discussion right off the bat with a template > response' if the smell of a certain teaching is > not akin to Ramana's? I don't mean to be tiresome, but if something comes up that I'm convinced is occluding, I'll probably be compelled to say something. > Sure you are concerned, and you have expressed > it often enough now, but are you not getting as > concerned as a mother who will not allow even the > slightest movement of a baby to prevent it from > bumping into anything... This baby will not walk... > I have actually met such a case... > > We killed the 'mother' :-) > Both are doing OK now. > > Wim What? I'm not sure what you just said, but it sure was dramatic! love--jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 on 6/15/02 6:07 PM, jodyrrr at jodyrrr wrote: I don't mean to be tiresome, but if something comes up that I'm convinced is occluding, I'll probably be compelled to say something. ================= Why are siddhis occluding? What is your definition of siddhi? shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 6/15/02 6:07 PM, jodyrrr at jodyrrr wrote: > > > I don't mean to be tiresome, but if something comes > up that I'm convinced is occluding, I'll probably be > compelled to say something. > ================= > > Why are siddhis occluding? What is your definition of siddhi? > > shawn You might want to ask Wim, Shawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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