Guest guest Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 on 6/17/02 12:17 AM, Wim Borsboom at wim wrote: > Hi Shawn, > > First off, sorry that my post to you caused us to "move apart" a bit. ============================== My dear Wim. I still love you and our moving apart is but a temporary neccesity required by my recalcitrant need and knowledge that now I must let go of all hands that wish to help, and find my own way to my Self. > What happened? > > Well, you wrote, > >>> ALL experience is wonderful AND terrible....and FUTILE! > > Negative adjectives are all in the realm of resistance, denial, > counteraction, non acceptance. > It is that what struck me in what you wrote, Shawn, especially the words > futile and inane. ============================== I stand by my assertion. To see only flowers and rainbows is to deny the rest. I see both....and notice that I don't say good and bad... It is quite obvious. =========================== <snip> > In human nature, which is not the same as unadulterated nature, we have > found a way to accept, reject or EVEN deny experiences. A very peculiar > human ability. ========================= Whether we accept or reject doesn't affect experience...you can deny it, but what is the point? ......and you seem to be denying the terrible and the inevitable. "Terrible" may be a value judgement, but so what? We have not *adulterated* nature. Who put that into your head? ================================ <snip> > Shall we embrace or resist the experience divine...? > Shall we surrender to or deny the experience divine...? ======================== How to surrender or deny? What is the difference? I think these words are confusing to me anyway....I prefer desire and avoid....hahahaaaa ================== > Embrace and surrender to SELF, being the human divine again! =============================== Who surrenders.....a phantom? ============================= > Those negative adjectives do not come from us personally, they have been > learned, pushed onto us it. ============================== NO,no, and NO......those adjectives come precisely from me personally! Whether they're environment influenced or little green men inflenced really changes nothing. To accept the good flowery stuff and reject, or in your case, deny the apparent existence of the " not so gentle side of nature and horrible possibilities of experience" is the epitome of "looking at the world through rose colored glasses!" Which is to DENY a gigantic aspect of life! This is Kali Yuga. Isn't it obvious?!! =============================== (I have previously written about where, when and > how it happened.) The negative adjectives are what we were 'made to make' of > our experiences or what to do with them. We were not "made to make" of anything! If I see my friend get attacked and eaten alive by a tiger, no one has to "tell" me anything! I'll figure it out! ====================== Qualitative adjectives show our > level of acceptance of experiences, experiences that we have anyways. Humans > cannot not experience... ==========What!?! Please....I have accepted the fact that my friend was just eaten alive by a tiger and I inform myself that this is NOT desireable...in fact horrible...I learn to run from tigers....This is intelligence, is it not? ================================ > If negative adjectives somehow tell us that certain experiences are not nice > or good or acceptable to us or our peers, the memories of those experiences > get moved into the background, we then ourselves move into a state of denial > or ignorance. We get sleep disturbed or our sleep gets disturbed. Dreams are > often indicative of such denials and inabilities to accept experiences. New > experiences which take place anyways, will remain hidden behind veils of > denial and negation, and hide in sleep and temporary unconsciousness. Many > of those experiences can become numinous, and can easily be qualified as > illusive... ================================== Yes so.........so what? Now when I run from tigers, I don't know why? believe me, I know why! Sub conscious fears are there for a reason....(this is where it's going to get fun, right?) Some people believe in reincarnation....now...if this is true.....uncovering hidden motivations could cost a lot not only in denaro, but time, yes? (I'm only teasing you, Bigbob, I'm not going to see him! ah-hah-hahaha) ============================================ > So I wrote: >>> My god, who convinced you of that? >>> There is nothing wrong with experience! ================================ OMYGOD! Did I say wrong.....no futile. unfulfilling, lacking, should I go on? The possibilities inherent in experience are horrifying, but I'm glad to hear you have no reason to say this....you must lead a sheltered life..... =========================== >>> Who judged your experience? >>> What was made of your experience?" >>> How was it evaluated for you? > > You answered: >> Is it not horrible when a child starves to death or gets hit by a bus?" > >> From the child's point of view that may very well be so, of course..., but > we don't really know that. It could be that within the child, transformative > processes are taking place that help it deal with the events and > circumstances effectively. > That is of course no excuse to condone calamities, accidents and mishaps or > make a statement like, "It is all part of some divine plan." > The only thing that I can with some authority speak of, is my own calamitous > experiences and my own processing of such events. > When I discovered how to clear them from the wrappings and trappings of > dramatization and manipulation, the transformative processes, which already > had started with the calamities, carried on and eventually I found myself > and the perpetrators of harm cleared of any charges. =========================== I really haven't the foggiest notion what you are talking about! Perhaps you can clarify this....how you see the world as present without the possibility of horrible experiences.... ======================= > I felt concerned about your blanket statement Shawn, as the way you stated > it, pretty well covered all of humankind and for ever. It was so global that > I felt that you also tried make up MY mind about how I should see my > experiences, so I wrote: >>> I have never ever had such [futile and terrible] feeling about > 'experience'... ================================= Yes....now we get down to it......your mind seems to be in denial of the horrible...EVEN IF you could only experience nice stuff...experience implies time and an experiencer! ============================ > Also (but that may not have been wise) I thought it opportune to ask you > some questions, your personal answers to which I expected, could have thrown > some light on the portent and reach of your statement and the rest of your > email. > Obviously my way of posing the questions, the way I did, was inappropriate > and instead of inviting you to consider the questions, it must have felt > that I alienated you. > > I sincerely apologize for that. ================================== Alls's well that IS well. No need Wim, I am fine and wish you the best...this is all talk between friends. We can agree to argue, mmm? ==================== <snip> > > That is true, we have no hand in the fact THAT we experience, > but in ultimately we have a free hand in WHAT we experience. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ No, wrong I disagree.....What blissfull enlightened world do you live in? ==================== > HOW we experience depends on how free we are from manipulative agendas. ======================= Unless you are experiencing OnlyThis...you are seeming to be seperate and thereby suffering.There is a someone? There is suffering..... > >> How did you get so deeply entangled in the molasses of analysis? >> love, > > Indeed, love did it to me..:-) > And you know what? I like molasses... > In Holland we have a special kind of breakfast cake... > It contains lots of molasses and it is best with ginger and candied sugar. > We have many kinds, ontbijtkoek, gemberkoek and kandijkoek. > > Wim +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ and you love the past.......because you can blame your present perceptions on it? Nothing horendous has happened to me Wim, I am merely getting sensitive to the FACT that all experince is temporary and ......futile (as in ultimately not satisfying ) love, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Hi Shawn, It seems to me, that the two of us disagree too quickly with each other, that the two of us do not really give ourselves enough time to consider what the other really means. We seem too quickly ready to disagree, before we even have tried to understand the other one's viewpoint. I bet you, sometimes we have hardly read what the other one wrote and our conclusion is already drawn and typed out. If we do not understand each other, how can we even start to disagree, we may not even have tried to understand the other. A conundrum? If you sincerely think that you have it right, and I sincerely think that I have it right, and if both of us have used unambiguous and clear language and if our views seem to diverge, it still does not necessarily have to mean that we have to disagree. It can also mean that we were not able to look at an issue from the vantage point of the other, unless of course we did use confusing and ambiguous language without us being cognizant of that. It is important that we use clear language. The problem is linguistic. Case in point: We experience experiences. We may have wonderful, terrible or futile experiences. Right?. But does that mean that the faculty of 'experiencing' is "wonderful OR terrible OR futile" or even "wonderful AND terrible AND futile"? Let's use a different word. Hhmm? ... ... ... "seeing" We can see good or bad or futile things. Right? Does that mean that our faculty of seeing is good or bad or futile? Of course not, the faculty does not take on the qualities of the observation. This is an essential flaw in our day-to-day use of language and logic... This flawed use of language easily produces wrong conclusions and leads to confusion. The flawed conclusions accumulate and the confusion escalates. Is that the confusion and futility that you were talking about? Did you experience that? Wonderful, the fact that you experienced that allows you to now come to grips with this. See? Experience is not futile, experience allows you to see wonder, terror or futility. Of course, if you keep insisting that experience IS futile than there is no way that you can come to grips with it. Now you can say, "Well Wim, that is just semantics..." Well yes, of course... it is... but may that not also be the reason that we do not understand each other?. I did say that my experience is not horrible or terrible or futile, that does not mean that I do not see horrible or terrible things, I might even experience events of such nature. The faculty of experiencing though stays in tact, it is unaffected. In fact, that we can experience is miraculous. You wrote: > Nothing horendous has happened to me Wim, I am merely > getting sensitive to the FACT that all experince is temporary and ...... > futile (as in ultimately not satisfying ) Shawn, will you accept from me that I find no dissatisfaction in the fact that I experience. Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 on 6/17/02 11:08 PM, Wim Borsboom at wim wrote: Hi Wim! > Hi Shawn, > > It seems to me, that the two of us disagree too quickly with each other, > that the two of us do not really give ourselves enough time to consider what > the other really means. ================= It doesn't seem this way at all to me....:-) > We seem too quickly ready to disagree, before we even have tried to > understand the other one's viewpoint. > I bet you, sometimes we have hardly read what the other one wrote and our > conclusion is already drawn and typed out. ============================== I'm sorry, what? ================ > If we do not understand each other, how can we even start to disagree, we > may not even have tried to understand the other. =========================== It's okay, we needn't understand one another. ======================= > A conundrum? > > If you sincerely think that you have it right, ================================ I don't think that. ========================= > and I sincerely think that I have it right, > and if both of us have used unambiguous and clear language > and if our views seem to diverge, > it still does not necessarily have to mean that we have to disagree. ======================== We might just disagree.....it's okay! ============================= > It can also mean that we were not able to look at an issue from the vantage > point of the other, > unless of course we did use confusing and ambiguous language without us > being cognizant of that. ==================================== perhaps........ ================= > It is important that we use clear language. > The problem is linguistic. > > Case in point: > We experience experiences. > We may have wonderful, terrible or futile experiences. Right?. ========================= I'm not saying futile is an option. All experiences *end* Uh-oh, here comes another one! ====================== > But does that mean that the faculty of 'experiencing' is "wonderful OR > terrible OR futile" or even "wonderful AND terrible AND futile"? ====================== It's usually both wonderful and terrible. And then there's the inevitable *death* lurking in the shadows... =================================== > Let's use a different word. Hhmm? ... ... ... "seeing" > We can see good or bad or futile things. Right? =================== Yes, I've long ago given up on the chance our president might say something smart. ===================== > Does that mean that our faculty of seeing is good or bad or futile? Of > course not, the faculty does not take on the qualities of the observation. ====================== Is there a whole faculty here, or is it just me? ========================= > This is an essential flaw in our day-to-day use of language and logic... > This flawed use of language easily produces wrong conclusions and leads to > confusion. The flawed conclusions accumulate and the confusion escalates. Is > that the confusion and futility that you were talking about? =============================== No. That's not at all what I'm talking about. No joke. ======================== > Did you experience that? ============================ I think I might have missed that one! ========================== > Wonderful, the fact that you experienced that allows you to now come to > grips with this. ========================== Now you're not even listening to me! ============================== > See? Experience is not futile, experience allows you to see wonder, terror > or futility. ============================== You just made my case for me! That was brilliant! ============================== > Of course, if you keep insisting that experience IS futile than there is no > way that you can come to grips with it. ========================= What does "come to grips with it" mean? ===================== > Now you can say, "Well Wim, that is just semantics..." > Well yes, of course... it is... but may that not also be the reason that we > do not understand each other?. ========================== I don't think so. ================== > I did say that my experience is not horrible or terrible or futile, that > does not mean that I do not see horrible or terrible things, I might even > experience events of such nature. ========================= You laugh when a nun trips, don't you? ==================================== The faculty of experiencing though stays > in tact, it is unaffected. In fact, that we can experience is miraculous. ======================= It's wonderful to see the humor in it? ====================== > You wrote: >> Nothing horendous has happened to me Wim, I am merely >> getting sensitive to the FACT that all experince is temporary and ...... >> futile (as in ultimately not satisfying ) > > Shawn, will you accept from me that I find no dissatisfaction in the fact > that I experience. ================================ of course. So do you still like me? ================= > Wim ======================= Peace and love you crazy analist, you! Did you know the word analyst comes from the root anal? ;-) love, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Hi Shawn, The following happened about a month ago in Omaha Nebraska. There was this couple who were ready to buy a new car. They decided on a BMW and after they had visited the dealership, they agreed that they both liked the 'metallic purply burgundy' one and the 'iridescent teal' equally as well. Some kind of positive change had happened in their relationship, the celebration of which was really why they were getting this new vehicle. "The change in our relationship is evident", she thought smilingly when the following morning her husband said with a look of generosity, "Well honey, you know I have other things to do today, so why don't you go to that BMW place and whatever colour you decide on, it is OK with me..." "Darling," he said with a staccato in his voice, "You bring that beauty home!" "Ah, what a delight!" she thought, "He has really changed. This never happened before. What fun, what freedom!" And in her imagined anticipation, she saw herself already flipping the coin. Whatever the outcome, that is what it would be. "Neat!" she said "So nice!" Later that day, when her husband came home and when he saw the new car sparkling away in their driveway, she expected him to say, "Fantastic honey, just look at that beauty!" Instead he said, with a confused look of gripe and generosity, with that intonation that had always made her feel so uneasy, "But honey, why didn't you take the other colour?" "Why dear?" she wondered aloud, laughing. "Well, honey," he said "I thought you liked it better." She walked to the car, turning pensive: "Didn't he say, "It's OK with me"? "And here... look at it...! "He still comes up with his predictable 'OTHER' option' "And what is so exasperating, HE PUTS THE ONUS ON ME. "If it is this, it could've been that, and if were that, it could've been this. "Will it always remain, "It's OK honey, but look at this way..."? "Or, "It's quite alright dear, but look at it from the other side..."? But..., she was so happy, she stepped in, ignited it and drove away thinking: "If it is all so OK to him, why this strange habit of him? "Always wanting to see things from another angle. "I think..., I think..." she thought aloud to herself, "I think he likes to... "He just likes to... "...disagree... "He likes disagreement. "He likes it the other way, "Whatever other way! She pressed the accelerator a little deeper, "I will not be in his way nomore... Shawn, you wrote: > We might just disagree.....it's okay! > It's okay, we needn't understand one another. Wim PS. You also wrote: > You just made my case for me! That was brilliant! You were equally brilliant, Shawn :-) > Peace and love you crazy analist, you! Did you know the word analyst comes from the root anal? ;-) Let me put this through the grammar checker... :-))) Oh that is neat! It suggests that it "comes from the root canal" Again, Wim :-))) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 on 6/18/02 8:46 AM, Wim Borsboom at wim wrote: > Hi Shawn, > > The following happened about a month ago in Omaha Nebraska. > > There was this couple who were ready to buy a new car. They decided on a BMW > and after they had visited the dealership, they agreed that they both liked > the 'metallic purply burgundy' one and the 'iridescent teal' equally as > well. > Some kind of positive change had happened in their relationship, the > celebration of which was really why they were getting this new vehicle. > "The change in our relationship is evident", she thought smilingly when the > following morning her husband said with a look of generosity, "Well honey, > you know I have other things to do today, so why don't you go to that BMW > place and whatever colour you decide on, it is OK with me..." > "Darling," he said with a staccato in his voice, "You bring that beauty > home!" > "Ah, what a delight!" she thought, "He has really changed. This never > happened before. What fun, what freedom!" > And in her imagined anticipation, she saw herself already flipping the coin. > Whatever the outcome, that is what it would be. > "Neat!" she said "So nice!" > > Later that day, when her husband came home and when he saw the new car > sparkling away in their driveway, she expected him to say, "Fantastic honey, > just look at that beauty!" Instead he said, with a confused look of gripe > and generosity, with that intonation that had always made her feel so > uneasy, "But honey, why didn't you take the other colour?" > "Why dear?" she wondered aloud, laughing. > "Well, honey," he said "I thought you liked it better." > > She walked to the car, turning pensive: > "Didn't he say, "It's OK with me"? > "And here... look at it...! > "He still comes up with his predictable 'OTHER' option' > "And what is so exasperating, HE PUTS THE ONUS ON ME. > "If it is this, it could've been that, and if were that, it could've been > this. > "Will it always remain, "It's OK honey, but look at this way..."? > "Or, "It's quite alright dear, but look at it from the other side..."? > > But..., she was so happy, she stepped in, ignited it and drove away > thinking: > "If it is all so OK to him, why this strange habit of him? > "Always wanting to see things from another angle. > "I think..., I think..." she thought aloud to herself, > "I think he likes to... > "He just likes to... > "...disagree... > "He likes disagreement. > "He likes it the other way, > "Whatever other way! > > She pressed the accelerator a little deeper, > "I will not be in his way nomore... > > Shawn, you wrote: >> We might just disagree.....it's okay! >> It's okay, we needn't understand one another. =================== Dear Wim, I like that story. ...so, do you think you want to persuade me to see your point of view? You *do* see, of course, that it really is the *woman* speeding away with an obviously agitated mind, who has the problem. The man, simply wanted her to be happy and choose the color she wanted! What if one of them was color-blind? In any case, Wim, I am glad to see that you are able to remain in good humor and not speed away at a dangerous rate! At any rate, there is nowhere to go, as experience in inherently void. I hope this doesn't feel like a root canal to you! I am merely stating my observations from an admittedly limited perspective of this seperate self. Andthis is what it's all about! Not to change *my* perspective, but to constantly *see* that the seperate self *is* merely the identification with this grasping and avoiding and preferring. The grasping and avoiding and preferring are okay and become play *if* there is not this seperate self notion. If the seperate self notion is held onto, then *experience* or any amount of *progress* is part of the same dilemma. And I really want to thank you and me for clearing this up! Namaste, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Hi Shawn, You wrote: > You *do* see, of course, that it really is the *woman* > speeding away with an obviously agitated mind, > who has the problem. > The man, simply wanted her to be happy and choose the color she wanted! A story like this is almost like a Rorschach test. Rorschach tests? Bah... I know of course what really happened, I was there. You want to know? Anybody care to guess? Wim PS. For some reason, when I read your answer Shawn, I was reminded of the first chapters of that wonderful book by Christiane Northrup MD, "The Wisdom of Menopause". ------------------ on 6/18/02 8:46 AM, Wim Borsboom at wim wrote: > Hi Shawn, > > The following happened about a month ago in Omaha Nebraska. > > There was this couple who were ready to buy a new car. They decided on a BMW > and after they had visited the dealership, they agreed that they both liked > the 'metallic purply burgundy' one and the 'iridescent teal' equally as > well. > Some kind of positive change had happened in their relationship, the > celebration of which was really why they were getting this new vehicle. > "The change in our relationship is evident", she thought smilingly when the > following morning her husband said with a look of generosity, "Well honey, > you know I have other things to do today, so why don't you go to that BMW > place and whatever colour you decide on, it is OK with me..." > "Darling," he said with a staccato in his voice, "You bring that beauty > home!" > "Ah, what a delight!" she thought, "He has really changed. This never > happened before. What fun, what freedom!" > And in her imagined anticipation, she saw herself already flipping the coin. > Whatever the outcome, that is what it would be. > "Neat!" she said "So nice!" > > Later that day, when her husband came home and when he saw the new car > sparkling away in their driveway, she expected him to say, "Fantastic honey, > just look at that beauty!" Instead he said, with a confused look of gripe > and generosity, with that intonation that had always made her feel so > uneasy, "But honey, why didn't you take the other colour?" > "Why dear?" she wondered aloud, laughing. > "Well, honey," he said "I thought you liked it better." > > She walked to the car, turning pensive: > "Didn't he say, "It's OK with me"? > "And here... look at it...! > "He still comes up with his predictable 'OTHER' option' > "And what is so exasperating, HE PUTS THE ONUS ON ME. > "If it is this, it could've been that, and if were that, it could've been > this. > "Will it always remain, "It's OK honey, but look at this way..."? > "Or, "It's quite alright dear, but look at it from the other side..."? > > But..., she was so happy, she stepped in, ignited it and drove away > thinking: > "If it is all so OK to him, why this strange habit of him? > "Always wanting to see things from another angle. > "I think..., I think..." she thought aloud to herself, > "I think he likes to... > "He just likes to... > "...disagree... > "He likes disagreement. > "He likes it the other way, > "Whatever other way! > > She pressed the accelerator a little deeper, > "I will not be in his way nomore... > > Shawn, you wrote: >> We might just disagree.....it's okay! >> It's okay, we needn't understand one another. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Dear Devotees: I have temporarily accepted a position on level 111 to teach a 6 month courst to the Buddhas and the Siddhas who will be coming down to various lower planes to teach over the next 100,000 years. I leave now as heavenly maidens eagerly await to support me in my spiritual tasks and look after my needs and earn good merits (punya) while I pass on the truth of primal non-centrality to the next generation of gurus. I really don't have many needs, being a breatharian and all, but for the satisfaction of my devotees and out of compassion, I go to enjoy good foods and other things. My absence is my presence. I will still continue to materialize for the devotees and do other miraculous things as my whim (not Wim) dictates. BCNU Sahajman - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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