Unproven Spider Sense...

[Guest guest]

, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

> My brother is bipolar

 

Hey, I got one of those too!

 

And to be honest,

my upclose experience is that

even though today's science is woefully inequipped

to actually verify this

(on a neuro-chemical basis)

 

I don't doubt that

in the future evolution of science

some smart researcher will eventually

graph some 'non-normal' neural-transmitter levels

(and proportions) in folks that exhibit so-called

'bi-polar' prejudices...

 

but my spider senses...

(which override all imaginary, future-bound scientific

discoveries with corresponding graphs)

 

state that the observations noted in my particular brother

which constitute someone's labeling as 'bi-polar'

 

(I won't go into the damage caused by the

overuse of toxic 'tonics'

that the educated ones have injected

 

and in fact, the educated ones do not actually

act like the educated but more

like monkies with wrenches)

 

are not the cause of the as of yet unproven neuro-chemical

imbalance...

 

but the *effect* of a Cause

yet unexplored by most folks...

 

My spider sense has yet to be proved...

 

David

(unproven Cause)

[Guest guest]

, "david bozzi" <david.bozzi@i...> wrote:

> , "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

>

> > My brother is bipolar

>

> Hey, I got one of those too!

>

> And to be honest,

> my upclose experience is that

> even though today's science is woefully inequipped

> to actually verify this

> (on a neuro-chemical basis)

>

> I don't doubt that

> in the future evolution of science

> some smart researcher will eventually

> graph some 'non-normal' neural-transmitter levels

> (and proportions) in folks that exhibit so-called

> 'bi-polar' prejudices...

>

> but my spider senses...

> (which override all imaginary, future-bound scientific

> discoveries with corresponding graphs)

>

> state that the observations noted in my particular brother

> which constitute someone's labeling as 'bi-polar'

>

> (I won't go into the damage caused by the

> overuse of toxic 'tonics'

> that the educated ones have injected

>

> and in fact, the educated ones do not actually

> act like the educated but more

> like monkies with wrenches)

>

> are not the cause of the as of yet unproven neuro-chemical

> imbalance...

>

> but the *effect* of a Cause

> yet unexplored by most folks...

>

> My spider sense has yet to be proved...

>

> David

> (unproven Cause)

 

I am unaware as to the cause, but certain as to

the effects.

 

Regardless of what triggers it, bipolar disorder is

quite consistent in its effects across the population

that is affected by it.

 

It does indeed exist as a disability that should

probably be handled by competent professionals whenever

possible.

 

--jody.

[Guest guest]

Hi David, Jody, Valerie....

Most of the list already knows my history with bipolar, so I won't repeat it.

>From my study of it, most of the researchers would actually agree with you, David.

They know they are studying effects and symptoms with the brain chemistry,

tho most believe the actual "cause" is genetic predisposition. (Isn't everything?)

However just as with many genetically prone diseases, there are

environmental triggers and stresses that

make the occurrence more likely (without becoming the single causative

agent, if there is such a critter).

As complex as people are, it's hard to reduce this to simple formulaic

explanations, but good management

of it considers many fronts.

If the human brain/mind were simple enough to understand, we'd be too simple to understand it.

Anyway, Valerie I am open to sharing either on or off list, if you are interested.

Jody and David, you would be unusually kind and understanding. Still,

all of my relationships have suffered

from others having to deal with the fallout from my illness and

subsequent behavior. It must be hard for

"normal" people to even imagine what its like to live with a mind that

is so unreliable and untrustworthy at times.

It takes a lot of practice to identify "what seems to be happening is

not real" and yet it is obviously happening,

in the sense a dream happens. My unproven spider sense thinks there's

a real clue in this "dreaming while awake".

In the ordinary meaning of those words, its very like lucid dreaming,

in that some fairly sane witness watches it all

unfold like a bad movie. You know its crazy, but you can't stop the movie.

It's interesting how many spiritual messages speak to the issue of not

identifying with the mind and its

changeable contents. Maybe one of the few benefits is how much easier

it is disidentify.

Love,

Gloria

-

david bozzi

Friday, June 21, 2002 12:22 AM

Unproven Spider Sense...

, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:> My

brother is bipolarHey, I got one of those too!And to be honest,my

upclose experience is that even though today's science is woefully

inequipped to actually verify this (on a neuro-chemical basis)I don't

doubt thatin the future evolution of sciencesome smart researcher will

eventuallygraph some 'non-normal' neural-transmitter levels(and

proportions) in folks that exhibit so-called'bi-polar'

prejudices...but my spider senses...(which override all imaginary,

future-bound scientific discoveries with corresponding graphs)state

that the observations noted in my particular brotherwhich constitute

someone's labeling as 'bi-polar'(I won't go into the damage caused by

theoveruse of toxic 'tonics'that the educated ones have injectedand in

fact, the educated ones do not actually act like the educated but more

like monkies with wrenches)are not the cause of the as of yet unproven

neuro-chemicalimbalance...but the *effect* of a Causeyet unexplored by

most folks...My spider sense has yet to be proved...David(unproven

Cause)

[Guest guest]

love your posts

love

eric

Hi Gloria,

I am recovering from cancer in my neck. I spent a lot of time

asking "Why me?" and "What did I do to deserve this?" and related

questions.

Then I read the book by K. Ogui, ZEN SHIN TALKS, in which I found a

chapter dealing with such issues. My whole perspective changed when I

read Ogui's question:

WHAT ARE YOU LEARNING FROM THIS EXPERIENCE?

That blew away my pity party and all the wrong questions, wrong

because there were no meaningful answers (The best answer is "Because

it happened", but that is not really very satisfying.)

After I worked on that question for a while, I realized that the

event of having cancer was only a small part of my picture. The next

and more real question (for me) was:

WHAT ARE YOU LEARNING FROM YOUR LIFE?

I haven't had the bi-polar experience, though I have known some

people who have it (or it has them). I consider that they are special

people who are being forced to dig deeper into life than so-called

normal people. This specialness give them value far beyond the boring

lives of most people.

My father's insight into his alcholism gave me a valuable piece of

learning and wisdom: He said, "Alcoholics are really very blessed,

when they "get it" they get to meet God!"

Whatever our circumstances, I have taken from that, it is worth

digging into, in order that we may meet God!

Your sharing of yourself in so many dimensions in this forum has

already brought so many of us real blessings.

Thank you for your being who you are, as you are,

an unlimited being,

John L.

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All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of

the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

Self. Welcome all to a.

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Hi Jody,

> It does indeed exist as a disability that should

> probably be handled by competent professionals whenever

> possible.

 

Ah, that is the case, "be handled by COMPETENT professionals ..."

 

Many "professionals" are so busy treating the condition and its

effects, that they fail to deal with the human being who may be

working with a different neurological system than is "normal".

 

In a different universe, my next door neighbor has a child with Downs

Syndrome. I went next door to speak to the parent about something. I

was not greeted; I was asked what I wanted; the person to whom I

spoke turned without a word and went in the back to get someone else;

the Downs child greeted me, made eye contact and gestured for me to

sit down on a nearby couch.

 

That behavior went totally unrecognized by anyone present (except me

of course).

 

The point being that an impaired neurology did not diminish the

humanity of the child -- who was more "real" than anyone else in the

house. The people in the house talk over "Daniel" all the time, so he

does funny things to "act out", throwing things sometimes, rapping on

the fence to get the attention of our dogs, etc. Like anyone he wants

attention AS A PERSON.

 

Take that personhood away from someone with any disability and that

person is diminished -- and their needs are not met, and the needs of

the disability is not met.

 

I would like to hear just one professional ask a simple question:

 

WHAT BENEFIT DOES THIS CONDITION BRING TO THIS PERSON AND TO OUR

WORLD?

 

John L.

[Guest guest]

Hi Gloria,

 

I am recovering from cancer in my neck. I spent a lot of time

asking "Why me?" and "What did I do to deserve this?" and related

questions.

 

Then I read the book by K. Ogui, ZEN SHIN TALKS, in which I found a

chapter dealing with such issues. My whole perspective changed when I

read Ogui's question:

 

WHAT ARE YOU LEARNING FROM THIS EXPERIENCE?

 

That blew away my pity party and all the wrong questions, wrong

because there were no meaningful answers (The best answer is "Because

it happened", but that is not really very satisfying.)

 

After I worked on that question for a while, I realized that the

event of having cancer was only a small part of my picture. The next

and more real question (for me) was:

 

WHAT ARE YOU LEARNING FROM YOUR LIFE?

 

I haven't had the bi-polar experience, though I have known some

people who have it (or it has them). I consider that they are special

people who are being forced to dig deeper into life than so-called

normal people. This specialness give them value far beyond the boring

lives of most people.

 

My father's insight into his alcholism gave me a valuable piece of

learning and wisdom: He said, "Alcoholics are really very blessed,

when they "get it" they get to meet God!"

 

Whatever our circumstances, I have taken from that, it is worth

digging into, in order that we may meet God!

 

Your sharing of yourself in so many dimensions in this forum has

already brought so many of us real blessings.

 

Thank you for your being who you are, as you are,

an unlimited being,

John L.

[Guest guest]

, "Gloria Lee" <glee@c...> wrote:

> It must be hard for

> "normal" people to even imagine what its like to live with a mind

> that is so unreliable and untrustworthy at times.

 

Those condemned to Purgatory

have equally at their disposal

Hell as well as Heaven.

> It takes a lot of practice to identify "what seems to be happening

> is not real" and yet it is obviously happening,

> in the sense a dream happens.

 

Profound in that what you say

applies to all of us...

> My unproven spider sense thinks there's a real clue in this

> "dreaming while awake".

 

My unproven spider sense

says that you are onto something.

> In the ordinary meaning of those words, its very like lucid

> dreaming, in that some fairly sane witness watches it all

> unfold like a bad movie. You know its crazy, but you can't stop the

> movie.

 

Trying to stop the flick is crazy;

the realization that it *is* just a movie

is like a seed.

> It's interesting how many spiritual messages speak to the issue of

> not identifying with the mind and its

> changeable contents. Maybe one of the few benefits is how much

> easier it is disidentify.

 

[Guest guest]

Hello -

 

I am getting the feeling that I am being selfish and not keeping up fast

enough somehow. I thought I was going to relate to Wim, but there was

anger over that and he disappeared, and now i am listening to music for

my radio show tomorrow simultaneous to trying to make sense of people

and bipolar and myself and war and all whatnot. If it's any consolation,

I am listening to SECRET GARDEN - 'DreamCatcher' - sorta airy fairy

new-age. I have a mostly celtic show tuned up for tomorrow.

I'm sorry - I felt i couldn't keep up (and still do) so will step

back - nicew to meet you.

best regards,

valerie

[Guest guest]

johnrloganis wrote:

<snip>

I am glad to meet you. I would like very much

to see what your heart

has to share with us.

<snip>

thankyou. And very nice to meet you as well!

valerie

[Guest guest]

Hi Valerie,

No need to keep up with anyone. It is not a contest.

Each one here is important and is contributing their heart/mind and

their life with all of us. Each life is unique and different and

sharing that difference means that sometimes we seem to diagree --

but mostly we are just sharing different points of view about the

same thing. Like one person is viewing a mountain from the top,

another from the bottom, and still another from half way up. The more

we share our views the more we understand the mountain.

 

And the mountain is life itself, is self, is Self. That's all.

 

I am glad to meet you. I would like very much to see what your heart

has to share with us.

 

Wim comes and goes and will be back, he has not disappeared, and he

is not angry. Wim is, well, Wim. And I am, well,

I am,

 

John L.

(For this fleeting moment that is.)

 

 

, v <amused@p...> wrote:

>

> Hello -

>

> I am getting the feeling that I am being selfish and not keeping up

fast

> enough somehow. I thought I was going to relate to Wim, but there

was

> anger over that and he disappeared, and now i am listening to music

for

> my radio show tomorrow simultaneous to trying to make sense of

people

> and bipolar and myself and war and all whatnot. If it's any

consolation,

> I am listening to SECRET GARDEN - 'DreamCatcher' - sorta airy fairy

> new-age. I have a mostly celtic show tuned up for tomorrow.

> I'm sorry - I felt i couldn't keep up (and still do) so will step

> back - nicew to meet you.

> best regards,

> valerie

[Guest guest]

, ErcAshfrd@a... wrote:

> John, you are so kool,

>

> love your posts

 

Me too John,

appreciate all that you've expressed...

 

Blessings,

David

[Guest guest]

, "johnrloganis" <johnrloganis> wrote:

 

[snip]

> WHAT BENEFIT DOES THIS CONDITION BRING TO THIS PERSON AND TO OUR

> WORLD?

>

> John L.

 

Actually, if you asked my brother, he'd say there were

substantial benefits to being manic. He loves it. When

he gets there he wants to stay there, but the longer he

stays there the wackier he gets.

 

Soon he's pretty much out of control, or just barely holding

on to the world as the rest of us know it.

 

It took a number of episodes before he was even diagnosed

correctly, so your point about competent professionals is

well taken. However, once they did figure it out they

were able to bring it under control fairly easily.

 

That sure made it easier to live with him, and he is still

the brilliant, sparkling and witty person we all know

and love.

 

--jody.

[Guest guest]

Gloria Lee wrote:

<snip>

Anyways, I just hope you hang around, cause you have alot to offer.

I read something about how Alaska is melting and thedisastrous effects

from the warmer climate. How is it where you live?<snip>

Dear Glo -

This part of Alaska is the Tongass National Rainforest in the southern

part by northern British Columbia, and is stunningly beautiful. Because

Alaska is so large it covers many different stratas, floras and faunas

- and this is most like rainforest. It had more snow than usual this winter

but we are having more sun than usual this spring/summer. Later when (if)

I'm done being confused I'll send digital photos. one can see whales from

my deck (when lucky).

I understand people's concern for people afflicted with bipolar, but

many great artists and writers have had the affliction, so in a way, is

it a bad move to medicate the mania when there could be another 'Starry

Night' in the making?

best regards,

valerie

[Guest guest]

Dear Valerie,

Please don't be so hard on yourself. Still, I know the feeling. I

haven't been able to keep up ever!

It's okay to do whatever suits you. Please don't feel any obligation

to answer or keep up with posts generated by your topic.

It looked to me like Jody and David may have simply felt somewhat

protective of you, due to their familiarity with the issues.

You made it clear you'd decide for yourself what advice to pay

attention to, so fine. And neither are you responsible for other's

reactions to what you say. It's good to be reminded once in a while

its just an email discusssion, different viewpoints are welcome.

Anyways, I just hope you hang around, cause you have alot to offer. I

read something about how Alaska is melting and the

disastrous effects from the warmer climate. How is it where you live?

Glo

-

v

Saturday, June 22, 2002 12:08 AM

Re: Unproven Spider Sense...

Hello -I am getting the feeling that I am being selfish and not

keeping up fastenough somehow. I thought I was going to relate to

Wim, but there wasanger over that and he disappeared, and now i am

listening to music formy radio show tomorrow simultaneous to trying

to make sense of peopleand bipolar and myself and war and all

whatnot. If it's any consolation,I am listening to SECRET GARDEN -

'DreamCatcher' - sorta airy fairynew-age. I have a mostly celtic

show tuned up for tomorrow. I'm sorry - I felt i couldn't keep up

(and still do) so will stepback - nicew to meet you.best

regards,valerie

[Guest guest]

Hi Jody,

That is great that your brother is "under control" and not so wacked

out.

 

My goal is to go deeper. In one sense the question for any challenge

is "Why me? Why this?" and one answer is "Why not?" If we truly

understood the variety in our experience we might see something else

at work. People with Downs Syndrome have an enormous love to give and

receive. People who are autistic often have an incredible musical

sense and can hear things in music which ordinary folk don't hear.

 

I'm not saying these conditions are comfortable, but I am saying that

if we look deeply we may see some need being met, or something

deeper. I am recovering from cancer and its treatment. When I stopped

asking "Why me?" and started trying to answer the question "What am I

learning from this experience?" and "Now, what do I have to share?"

my world changed and my attitude changed radically. I didn't want nor

do I want anything to do with cancer -- but there it is, what can I

learn from this experience? I am still learning.

 

People much younger than I who get this cancer have died. I wonder

why? I wonder why I am still alive. It is because I made a radical

decision and CHOSE LIFE. I chose to get good out of my condition, and

as good as I get, I choose to share that good. It is my fantasy that

that attitude is one of the reasons I am still here.

 

Van Gogh was truly whacked out and in his most whacked out phases

painted some of his most powerful paintings. Etc.

 

I don't want anyone to suffer, and people with bipolar conditions and

their care-givers have a lot to deal with. I'm just asking the

professionals in their search for resolution to look for the value in

the conditions they deal with and find a better way to realize that

value while relieving the sufferer of the stress and anxiety. So much

of the professional community only deal with suppressing the symptoms

and never really dealing with the cause and/or the potential value.

 

I suppose that I am just rambling, but I have met "open" doctors

and "closed, in the box (PDR)" doctors. At least there is compassion

in the the "open" doctors and a willingness to look deeper.

 

And that is my personal goal for what is left of my life: to look

deeper.

 

John L.

 

, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

> , "johnrloganis" <johnrloganis>

wrote:

>

> [snip]

>

> > WHAT BENEFIT DOES THIS CONDITION BRING TO THIS PERSON AND TO OUR

> > WORLD?

> >

> > John L.

>

> Actually, if you asked my brother, he'd say there were

> substantial benefits to being manic. He loves it. When

> he gets there he wants to stay there, but the longer he

> stays there the wackier he gets.

>

> Soon he's pretty much out of control, or just barely holding

> on to the world as the rest of us know it.

>

> It took a number of episodes before he was even diagnosed

> correctly, so your point about competent professionals is

> well taken. However, once they did figure it out they

> were able to bring it under control fairly easily.

>

> That sure made it easier to live with him, and he is still

> the brilliant, sparkling and witty person we all know

> and love.

>

> --jody.