Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 The way out is through the diminishing of suffering. May I share a quote from Wolfgang, a member of another list, that seems fitting here: 'What is the essence of Buddhist Dharma?' - 'Abstain from evil, and do the good.' I only remembered that Dogen quotes it somewhere, but that was all... Just now another friend in a German mail list has cited exactly that one - it seems to be taken from Shobogenzo 63, and it was Ch'an master Tao-lin who said it to Po-chu-i in the mid-8th cty. >>>>>>> Therein is the Dharma... Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 Hi Everyone: A friend wrote me a letter about trying to discuss free will with an old acquaintance. She had trouble when he said, "This is America. Here we have the right to choose." I told her I did not envy her the task ahead. But we did start a dialogue. I wrote: Karma is like the subconscious traits that compel us. The Sanskrit word is 'vasannas' . These are our tendencies. To fight certain tendencies is a tendency. Subliminal traits is another way of putting it. When someone acts, the thought that they acted comes after, and makes one think they chose. The seeing of actions performed without personal volition is the proof and yoga invites one to reach inside deeply enough to steady the consciousness and watch the show. You write: it is hard to see that ones actions are not thought of first. I am going to write this letter, and then I do it. I write: What caused the intent? You? I say subliminal traits. Another person may think it a waste of time or get mad or whatever. Your traits impel your intent. The thought that acts are volitional is not supported. Free choice is tied into the reality of the individual. To me this individual is a phantom. A thought. The phrase in Sanskrit is Aham Vritti (first thought). It is bigger than other thoughts and is the creation of the mind. Or it arises as the mind. It is the feeling of existence. It is implied as the thinker of the thought every time a thought is noticed. Beingness itself is the original existence or identity upon which the Aham Vritti is patterned. It is its close proximity to pure existence (beingness) which makes the Aham Vritti feel so real. It is the mental reflection of real identity. But it is only a thought. Existence is continuous. Thoughts about it are gone in an instant and have to be rethought again later but the intervening span of time is not noticed and the existence of the individual seems continuous. Without this individual there is no dualism and so Advaita points to that state. The illusion manipulates the illusion. The mechanics of how this occurs or 'what happens if you...'is reasonable when seen clearly as action creating action. But lies and misconception create greater suffering than just ignorance of the illusion. The idea that one is responsible for their actions deserving either credit or blame is a big part of reward and punishment which is the basis for very fundamental social dogma. The idea of no free will seems to say one cannot be held responsible, but going to jail for a crime is one's karma whether there was free will or not. Therefore what you do within the illusion makes a difference. The way out is through the diminishing of suffering. Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 Bobby G & Friends, Well and truly said, Bob. As a corollary, it may be useful to point out that though the Buddha returned completely into the reality from which "he" was generated, the same teachings tell us that a Buddha comes along once in a series of milleniums. For the rest of us, we generate and/or respond helplessly to karma over and over again. Our reality is serial and real until that moment when, all of a sudden, it isn't serial and real(surreal and real?). This isn't an argument against using the philosophical conclusions and methods of Mahayana/Advaita to "de-construct" the individual, but rather a comment on the fact that our deconstruction doesn't ultimately "take" until our karmas (our "reality") is used up. in the meantime, yours in the bonds, eric , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > Hi Everyone: > > A friend wrote me a letter about trying to discuss free will with an > old acquaintance. She had trouble when he said, "This is America. > Here we have the right to choose." I told her I did not envy her the > task ahead. But we did start a dialogue. > > I wrote: > Karma is like the subconscious traits that compel us. The Sanskrit > word is 'vasannas' . These are our tendencies. To fight certain > tendencies is a tendency. Subliminal traits is another way of > putting it. When someone acts, the thought that they acted comes > after, and makes one think they chose. > > The seeing of actions performed without personal volition is the > proof and yoga invites one to reach inside deeply enough to steady > the consciousness and watch the show. > > You write: > it is hard to see that ones actions are not thought of first. I am > going to > write this letter, and then I do it. > > I write: > > What caused the intent? You? I say subliminal traits. Another > person may think it a waste of time or get mad or whatever. Your > traits impel your intent. The thought that acts are volitional is > not supported. > > Free choice is tied into the reality of the individual. To me this > individual is a phantom. A thought. The phrase in Sanskrit is Aham > Vritti (first thought). It is bigger than other thoughts and is the > creation of the mind. Or it arises as the mind. It is the feeling > of existence. It is implied as the thinker of the thought every time > a thought is noticed. > > Beingness itself is the original existence or identity upon which the > Aham Vritti is patterned. It is its close proximity to pure > existence (beingness) which makes the Aham Vritti feel so real. It > is the mental reflection of real identity. But it is only a > thought. Existence is continuous. Thoughts about it are gone in an > instant and have to be rethought again later but the intervening span > of time is not noticed and the existence of the individual seems > continuous. > > Without this individual there is no dualism and so Advaita points to > that state. > > The illusion manipulates the illusion. The mechanics of how this > occurs or 'what happens if you...'is reasonable when seen clearly as > action creating action. But lies and misconception create greater > suffering than just ignorance of the illusion. > > The idea that one is responsible for their actions deserving either > credit or blame is a big part of reward and punishment which is the > basis for very fundamental social dogma. The idea of no free will > seems to say one cannot be held responsible, but going to jail for a > crime is one's karma whether there was free will or not. Therefore > what you do within the illusion makes a difference. The way out is > through the diminishing of suffering. > > > Love > Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 Zenbob & Friends, Zenbob, I promise that this continual comment of mine to your posts will soon collapse; still, I can't refrain from commenting that: "The way out is through the diminishing of suffering"(of others). ....and the acceptance of suffering (of self). yours in the bonds, eric , zen2wrk@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/6/02 9:51:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Bigbobgraham@a... writes: > > > > The way out is > > through the diminishing of suffering. > > > > May I share a quote from Wolfgang, a member of another list, that seems > fitting here: > > 'What is the essence of Buddhist Dharma?' - > 'Abstain from evil, and do the good.' > > I only remembered that Dogen quotes it somewhere, but that was all... > Just now another friend in a German mail list has cited exactly that > one - it seems to be taken from Shobogenzo 63, and it was Ch'an > master Tao-lin who said it to Po-chu-i in the mid-8th cty. > > >>>>>>> > > Therein is the Dharma... > > Love, > > Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 Dear Eric: Thank you and pranams. It is a pleasure to hear from you. Your insights are most welcome. Love Bobby G. , "eblack101" <EBlackstead@c...> wrote: > Bobby G & Friends, > > Well and truly said, Bob. As a corollary, it may be useful to point > out that though the Buddha returned completely into the reality from > which "he" was generated, the same teachings tell us that a Buddha > comes along once in a series of milleniums. For the rest of us, we > generate and/or respond helplessly to karma over and over again. Our > reality is serial and real until that moment when, all of a sudden, > it isn't serial and real(surreal and real?). > > This isn't an argument against using the philosophical conclusions > and methods of Mahayana/Advaita to "de-construct" the individual, but > rather a comment on the fact that our deconstruction doesn't > ultimately "take" until our karmas (our "reality") is used up. > > in the meantime, > yours in the bonds, > eric > > > , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > > Hi Everyone: > > > > A friend wrote me a letter about trying to discuss free will with > an > > old acquaintance. She had trouble when he said, "This is America. > > Here we have the right to choose." I told her I did not envy her > the > > task ahead. But we did start a dialogue. > > > > I wrote: > > Karma is like the subconscious traits that compel us. The Sanskrit > > word is 'vasannas' . These are our tendencies. To fight certain > > tendencies is a tendency. Subliminal traits is another way of > > putting it. When someone acts, the thought that they acted comes > > after, and makes one think they chose. > > > > The seeing of actions performed without personal volition is the > > proof and yoga invites one to reach inside deeply enough to steady > > the consciousness and watch the show. > > > > You write: > > it is hard to see that ones actions are not thought of first. I am > > going to > > write this letter, and then I do it. > > > > I write: > > > > What caused the intent? You? I say subliminal traits. Another > > person may think it a waste of time or get mad or whatever. Your > > traits impel your intent. The thought that acts are volitional is > > not supported. > > > > Free choice is tied into the reality of the individual. To me this > > individual is a phantom. A thought. The phrase in Sanskrit is > Aham > > Vritti (first thought). It is bigger than other thoughts and is > the > > creation of the mind. Or it arises as the mind. It is the feeling > > of existence. It is implied as the thinker of the thought every > time > > a thought is noticed. > > > > Beingness itself is the original existence or identity upon which > the > > Aham Vritti is patterned. It is its close proximity to pure > > existence (beingness) which makes the Aham Vritti feel so real. It > > is the mental reflection of real identity. But it is only a > > thought. Existence is continuous. Thoughts about it are gone in > an > > instant and have to be rethought again later but the intervening > span > > of time is not noticed and the existence of the individual seems > > continuous. > > > > Without this individual there is no dualism and so Advaita points > to > > that state. > > > > The illusion manipulates the illusion. The mechanics of how this > > occurs or 'what happens if you...'is reasonable when seen clearly > as > > action creating action. But lies and misconception create greater > > suffering than just ignorance of the illusion. > > > > The idea that one is responsible for their actions deserving either > > credit or blame is a big part of reward and punishment which is the > > basis for very fundamental social dogma. The idea of no free will > > seems to say one cannot be held responsible, but going to jail for > a > > crime is one's karma whether there was free will or not. Therefore > > what you do within the illusion makes a difference. The way out is > > through the diminishing of suffering. > > > > > > Love > > Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 Dear Zenbob: What a great list this is and you are a big part of it. Just being who you are is enough good. In the Heart of the Spirit of Love, Bobby G. , zen2wrk@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/6/02 9:51:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Bigbobgraham@a... writes: > > > > The way out is > > through the diminishing of suffering. > > > > May I share a quote from Wolfgang, a member of another list, that seems > fitting here: > > 'What is the essence of Buddhist Dharma?' - > 'Abstain from evil, and do the good.' > > I only remembered that Dogen quotes it somewhere, but that was all... > Just now another friend in a German mail list has cited exactly that > one - it seems to be taken from Shobogenzo 63, and it was Ch'an > master Tao-lin who said it to Po-chu-i in the mid-8th cty. > > >>>>>>> > > Therein is the Dharma... > > Love, > > Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2002 Report Share Posted July 12, 2002 "The way out is through the diminishing of suffering"(of others). ....and the acceptance of suffering (of self). I have no disagreement with this view, good souled Eric! Blessings, Zenbob (about to alleviate some suffering by having lunch!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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