Inquiry

[Guest guest]

Can the membership here share with me their understanding of who

Jesus is?

 

my affections,

d_agenda

[Guest guest]

, "d_agenda2000" <d_agenda2000> wrote:

>Can the membership here share with me their understanding of who

Jesus is?

 

 

..... Dear D,

 

we like to fascinate ourselves with interesting personalities,

whether historical or current, yes? we like to project all sorts of

stuff on them, or accumulate others' interpretations for our own data

banks, and this is a lot of fun, isn't it? we love stories, we just

do! it's part of our human experience -- telling stories. it's the

way we create society, and consensus meaning, and shared descriptions

of what is real. we've been doing it since we first stasrteed

gathering around the campfire, and even these forums are a kind of

campfire.

most people in the west have some idea about Jesus. few go beyond

ideas about Jesus to the Source from Which Jesus emerged, even though

that was his recommendation. those that do find out that "who Jesus

is" is who they are.

 

LoveAlways,

 

b

[Guest guest]

Hello d_agenda,

 

The story of Jesus is that - a parable - a metaphor.

 

The meaning of the parable is purposeless and thus its meaning is

its purposefreeness (its meaning is not fixed and yet it is not

lacking).

 

 

In the story Jesus represents the human quality of the Divine

Human and Christ represents the Divine quality - their union, Jesus

Christ(the words Jesus Christ occur together in just two places in the

gospels) is the Whole, which is before-between-beyond its qualities.

 

 

~~~

 

So there are four 1.) Jesus, 2.) Christ, 3.)Jesus Christ and

4.)'________' - that which is before-between-beyond - and there are

four gospel writers...(there are many many other connections to the

number four and its multiples)

 

 

Love and Gratitude,

James

 

 

 

, "d_agenda2000" <d_agenda2000> wrote:

>

>

>

> Can the membership here share with me their understanding of who

> Jesus is?

>

> my affections,

> d_agenda

[Guest guest]

on 7/8/02 5:42 AM, d_agenda2000 at d_agenda2000 wrote:

Can the membership here share with me their understanding of who

Jesus is?

my affections,

d_agenda

=========================

Jesus seems to be a symbol for Love and what it entails being a human.

He is a great archetype. His story can be interpretted in many

different ways. The "Only Begotten Son" part is fallen on my deaf

ears and is clearly a way to keep safe the political machinery of

that particular church. Why on earth would "God" choose to have only

*one* kid? But, they've got to pull out the virgin thing so as to

stop other "Jesuses" from coming along and chasing more merchants

from the place...

The One thing that strikes me most about the story is the apparent

self-proclaimed authority of his words. He comes into a life rich

with an already existing BS. ( that's a belief system) He flatly

refuses to genuflect to the local authorities of the existing BS and

starts right flat out saying *his own self-evident truth*. ( which

later is turned into more BS)

It is evident to me that there is a real and living relationship to

"god or truth" etc. And I think his message to follow, or "no one

comes to the father but by me," is mistaken by those who like the

parent idea of "God" to be some sort of ancient bargain for our souls

completed...instead of the call to be responsible for your own

self-validating experience:(become so intimate with god that *you*

can say, you and he are one.)

Inherent in the concept of the divine is the intuition that ALL is divine.

I and my father are one, is to become everyones's statement, and to

follow him is to *hear* the truth and develope your own unique way

of finding out: Is this true? Am I and the Father One?

God knows about the death of a sparrow not becuse, "he cares," but

because the sparrow is God.

It breaks my heart to see such a beautifully rich story being taken so literally.....

Unfortunately, if you should point out to "christians" their hypocracy

or the holes in their BS, you better take cover, as they will break

all the rules to prove you wrong!

shawn

blessed are the cheesemakers ( and all those dealing in dairy products)

[Guest guest]

Hi Shawn,

> blessed are the cheesemakers

> (and all those dealing in dairy products)

http://www.henriwillig.com/Cheese_Making.htm

Wim

PS

Shawn, I always knew that we Dutch have a special place in Jesus' heart or at least in yours. :-)

Can't say that of the Belgians, they call us "kaaskoppen" or "cheese heads", :-)

http://park.org/Netherlands/pavilions/food_and_markets/cheese/introduction.html

but then the Dutch know that Belgians for the longest time thought that the moon was made of cheese.

http://www.visionsmagazine.com/poems/moon.html

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a990723a.html

Upgrade Outlook - Add COLOR to your Emails

[Guest guest]

on 7/9/02 2:49 PM, Wim Borsboom at wim (AT) aurasphere (DOT) org wrote:

Hi Shawn,

http://www.henriwillig.com/Cheese_Making.htm

Wim

PS

Shawn, I always knew that we Dutch have a special place in Jesus' heart or at least in yours. :-)

Can't say that of the Belgians, they call us "kaaskoppen" or "cheese heads", :-)

=================

Hi Wim!

I thought a thought recently( and I think I pulled a muscle) that made

a connection to another(as they sometimes do :-))....then on down the

line(or chain) I thought of you!

( you were dressed ina whi-------just kidding!)

Here's how it sorta went....we were talking about self esteem and then

doubting of teachers was glanced, and it occurred to me that that

self-doubt (self-esteem) is another form of just plain doubt (I know

I'm fucking brilliant, right!) and plain doubt is a kind of

suspicious thing( Not mentioning names here but it occurred to me

some people on this list are extremely suspicious of teachers or

"gurus" although if they are long dead, they're apparently great) and

suspicion seems to be a survival skill going back as far as the

ameba(no sp.check), which reminded me in a completely subconscious

way(although somehow it broke through) of a snake.........

So I came to the conclusion that some people are snakes....sort of!

The snake in the Adam and Eve storyrepresents a self doubt that

something is missing......BINGO!!

I never saw that before.....thanks for all the cheese!

Lovesometimes(bwahahah)

Shawn

[Guest guest]

more thoughtstream...

.....then i thought of the Snake always being betrayed as the devil

(evil) and how suspicion or doubt over ones own survival being the

impetus (and a worthy one= not evil) as far back as omeba( maybe

that's correct sp.?) and how a very basic "not whole feeling" (need

to understand=meaning) and fear of death is *the* motivation

behind spiritual seeking, and conversely, *the* way to enlightenment is a kind of SURRENDER.

How fucking ironic is God, humm?

No wonder I love irony!

You not only have surrender your need to know, but your very instincs

to survive!...and then...and this is the CHERRY.....; you find out

you never existed(at least not the way you *thought* you did)

love.

Shawn

ps...the cheese thing was from " The Life of Brian," a movie about a

parallel religion at the time of Jesus. I highly recommend it if

you've not seen it. It's by some guys from Monty Python...(the snake

rears its beautiful head again!)

========================

on 7/9/02 3:34 PM, shawn at shawn (AT) withouraloha (DOT) com wrote:

on 7/9/02 2:49 PM, Wim Borsboom at wim (AT) aurasphere (DOT) org wrote:

Hi Shawn,

http://www.henriwillig.com/Cheese_Making.htm

Wim

PS

Shawn, I always knew that we Dutch have a special place in Jesus' heart or at least in yours. :-)

Can't say that of the Belgians, they call us "kaaskoppen" or "cheese heads", :-)

=================

Hi Wim!

I thought a thought recently( and I think I pulled a muscle) that made

a connection to another(as they sometimes do :-))....then on down the

line(or chain) I thought of you!

( you were dressed ina whi-------just kidding!)

Here's how it sorta went....we were talking about self esteem and then

doubting of teachers was glanced, and it occurred to me that that

self-doubt (self-esteem) is another form of just plain doubt (I know

I'm fucking brilliant, right!) and plain doubt is a kind of

suspicious thing( Not mentioning names here but it occurred to me

some people on this list are extremely suspicious of teachers or

"gurus" although if they are long dead, they're apparently great) and

suspicion seems to be a survival skill going back as far as the

ameba(no sp.check), which reminded me in a completely subconscious

way(although somehow it broke through) of a snake.........

So I came to the conclusion that some people are snakes....sort of!

The snake in the Adam and Eve storyrepresents a self doubt that

something is missing......BINGO!!

I never saw that before.....thanks for all the cheese!

Lovesometimes(bwahahah)

Shawn

/join

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of

the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

Self. Welcome all to a.

Terms of Service

<> .

[Guest guest]

Hi Shawn,

You imagined that I was

> ( ... dressed in a whi-------just kidding!)

I am not very good at second guessing... so will I ever really know ...?

But let me try, I assure you though that second guessing requires even

more muscle than thinking, problem is that this head of mine does not

contain enough brain muscle, it is rather more like a fatty

cholesterol goo, and I don't even know if it is the good kind of

cholesterol

So:

I was dressed in a whimsical white and whirly which-a-ma-gig. I am the

white guy, dancing behind the other three.

Wim

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[Guest guest]

Hi Shawn,

> the cheese thing was from " The Life of Brian,"

The life of Brian, yes, now I remember, my son loved the movie, he

almost forced me to see it

"omeba"... "amoeba" :-)

I like you meandering deliberations, Shawn, very dynamic, neat

insights that you are getting from it.

Of course fear, angst, terror are all characteristics of what I call

the "denatured human". In nature we see nothing of the kind, sure, we

see animals running for their life, but "fear - the human way" is a

very strange "unnatural and out of this world" phenomenon. In nature

(apart from human nature) there is no torture, no conditional

manipulation the pavlovian way, no judgement, no punishment, no evil

! A real snake could never have done what was projected onto that

mysterious creature. (And fortunately in religions other than the

Judeo-Christian the snake is quite revered.)

You talk about fear, Shawn, and I admit it is not exactly the same as

anxiety or angst, but I remember JC talked quite a bit about fear and

anxiety, he found it very unnatural, he kept referring back to nature

to show there was no such thing there...He used the word anxiety,

worry or fear in that context at least twelve times.

If we humans could just drop those unnatural "fearful denatured human

characteristics" we would ALSO have it made, it is AS GOOD AS

enlightenment.

In what follows I'll just be freewheeling a bit, so Shawn if it does

not interest you just let it be.

JC:

"Do not be anxious for your life"

"By being anxious can you add a single cubit to this lifespan?"

"Why are you so anxious about clothing, just observe the lilies of the

field they do not toil or spin."

"The foxes have their holes, the birds have their nest but... the son

of man has nowhere to lay his head."

I bet you that JC was not just referring to himself... he was

referring to "denatured mankind" as distinct from a "divinely natured

humankind". When it comes down to it, he was a nature philosopher. Not

only did he consider himself god/man or human/divine, he urged every

one to return to their native state in the divine kingdom on earth.

He sought to RE-UNITE heaven and earth, the divine with the human,

parent with children, "Seek his (sic) kingdom and these things (good

livelihood, food, shelter, etc.) shall be added to you." A nature

philosopher, JC, so was the young Jean-Jacques Rousseau,

http://www2.lucidcafe.com/lucidcafe/library/96jun/rousseau.html .His

"Return to Nature" did not mean some romantic return to a state of

pastoral Eden or Arcadia. They both meant a serious return to a

natural human life of trust in nature, to eventually wash human

nature clean again from an outlandish (extra-terrestrial?) corrupt

blight of fear, judgement, punishment and evil.

It is very interesting by the way, that the word "hell" originally

meant "earth", in the meaning of "that which is hidden under or

covered by the sky (from the Sanskrit SKU, "cover") The word "hell"

is rooted via the words cellar, conceal and ceiling to the Sanskrit

roots KAL, HAL and KU meaning "hollow". But hell does not mean

"hidden" in terms of hidden under the earth as an underworld or

Hades. Hell was originally that (earth) which was under the vault of

heaven (coelum, Latin).

So originally "hell" was never the opposite of "heaven". "Hell" was

that which was covered by heaven, the negative meaning only developed

later. The fallen angels were actually angels that had fallen through

the roof (of heaven) onto earth. The Christian Athenasian Creed

(parts of which are from about AD 360) talks about Jesus (compare to

Avatar) who descended into hell... which, when that was written up,

meant Earth.

Wim

Neat eh?!

[Guest guest]

, "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote:

> , "d_agenda2000" <d_agenda2000>

wrote:

>

> >Can the membership here share with me their understanding of who

> Jesus is?

>

>

> .... Dear D,

>

> we like to fascinate ourselves with interesting personalities,

> whether historical or current, yes? we like to project all sorts of

> stuff on them, or accumulate others' interpretations for our own

data

> banks, and this is a lot of fun, isn't it?

 

Yes, my interpretations of personalities have wrought comfort and

discomfort.

I have always been uncomfortable about the Jesus story. As a youngster

in a nonreligious family, I had the same reaction to my first reading

of the Bible as I had to taking the first puff on a cigarette.

It didn't help that Jesus was this white guy with long flowing hair

on the walls of old black folks I was not close to.

 

 

 

 

we love stories, we just

> do! it's part of our human experience -- telling stories. it's the

> way we create society, and consensus meaning, and shared

descriptions

> of what is real. we've been doing it since we first stasrteed

> gathering around the campfire, and even these forums are a kind of

> campfire.

> most people in the west have some idea about Jesus. few go beyond

> ideas about Jesus to the Source

 

I inquired inorder to clear away some of my baggage regarding the

myth.

The discussions about Enlightenment and Liberation, who can give them

and who can receive them, often don't critique the notion of

Salvation.

And it seems that if Realization is akin to Salvation; if we do

nothing for realization or enlightenment, "the nothing doing" is akin

to the "transmission" of Grace for Enlightenment or Salvation.

Over here (nonduality) it seems that if one inquires as to "Who I

am", he can know himself as ONe; over there (christian mysticism)

say's "just believe in Jesus and ye will be saved.

 

 

from Which Jesus emerged, even though

> that was his recommendation. those that do find out that "who Jesus

> is" is who they are.

 

......"find out"..........

>

> LoveAlways,

>

> b

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

, shawn <shawn@w...> wrote:

> on 7/8/02 5:42 AM, d_agenda2000 at d_agenda2000 wrote:

>

> Can the membership here share with me their understanding of who

> Jesus is?

>

> my affections,

> d_agenda

> =========================

>

> Jesus seems to be a symbol for Love and what it entails being a

human. He is

> a great archetype. His story can be interpretted in many different

ways.

> The "Only Begotten Son" part is fallen on my deaf ears and is

clearly a way

> to keep safe the political machinery of that particular church. Why

on earth

> would "God" choose to have only *one* kid? But, they've got to pull

out the

> virgin thing so as to stop other "Jesuses" from coming along and

chasing

> more merchants from the place...

 

ROFL.....

The reason I asked was larger due to my distaste for things biblical.

Somehow my "atheism" is not in vogue and I want to gleam meaning from

the Jesus story.

All of Jesus' activities miffed me. He through out the "tax

collectors" and "chased out the merchants"...hmmmmmm.....I would like

a "line" to Jerry Falwell to get the skinny on that!

 

 

>

> The One thing that strikes me most about the story is the apparent

> self-proclaimed authority of his words. He comes into a life rich

with an

> already existing BS.

 

Just come out and say it "B S".

There's quite abit "todo" (why else would there be Doctors of

Divinity Degrees?) about "self-proclaimed authority". They (not the

DDv but the Gnostics, UFOers and other cryptologists) say that "the

guy" was initiated into the sect of the Essences and that he

travelled to Egypt.

 

Big for me here is the contrast that can be drawn with somebody who

is perceived as just sitting around (RM)... Supposely Jesus was a

very Active fellow. Fisherman of ...men, carpenter, Healer, magickian

(right, no card tricks)....a bottom, somebody that had to be gotten

Rid of....

 

( that's a belief system) He flatly refuses to

> genuflect to the local authorities of the existing BS and starts

right flat

> out saying *his own self-evident truth*. ( which later is turned

into more

> BS)

>

> It is evident to me that there is a real and living relationship

to "god or

> truth" etc. And I think his message to follow, or "no one comes to

the

> father but by me," is mistaken by those who like the parent idea

of "God" to

> be some sort of ancient bargain for our souls completed...

 

Let the church say "Amen".

 

 

instead of the

> call to be responsible for your own self-validating experience:

(become so

> intimate with god that *you* can say, you and he are one.)

>

> Inherent in the concept of the divine is the intuition that ALL is

divine.

>

> I and my father are one, is to become everyones's statement, and to

follow

> him is to *hear* the truth and develope your own unique way of

finding out:

> Is this true? Am I and the Father One?

 

Yes.

 

> God knows about the death of a sparrow not becuse, "he cares," but

because

> the sparrow is God.

>

> It breaks my heart to see such a beautifully rich story being taken

so

> literally.....

>

> Unfortunately, if you should point out to "christians" their

hypocracy or

> the holes in their BS, you better take cover, as they will break

all the

> rules to prove you wrong!

>

> shawn

>

> blessed are the cheesemakers ( and all those dealing in dairy

products)

 

blessed are the atheists who begin who inquire

 

muchas gracias,

d_agenda

[Guest guest]

Hi d_agenda

 

you wrote:

> ROFL.....

> The reason I asked was larger due to my distaste

> for things biblical.

> Somehow my "atheism" is not in vogue and I want

> to gleam meaning from the Jesus story. All of Jesus'

> activities miffed me. He through out the "tax collectors"

> and "chased out the merchants" ...hmmmmmm.....

> I would like a "line" to Jerry Falwell to get the skinny on that!

 

 

Try this guy,

 

http://www.jhuger.com/mystic_atheism.mv

 

My son likes him

 

Wim

 

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