Yoga, Turya, Self-Realization

July 9, 2002

It occurs to me that only the most advanced adepts and

yogis and Realizers can follow the remarkable depth

behind simple appearing comments of Sri Ramana

Maharshi. The greatest yogis and Shankracharyas sat at

the feet of Sri Ramana for a good reason. Those with

an inability to understand the Sage of Arunachala

should keep such things in mind -- that their teachers

and their teachers teachers, stood in the shadows of

the Sage of Aruanchala to benefit from his glance.

People are fascinated by terms such "Transcendental

Consciousness", "Super Consciousness" etc. and rejoice

at having what they consider "enlightening"

experiences. Naturally, they are eager to convert

others. Who can blame them?

The Turya stage is the fourth stage and certainly

beyond such trivialities as transcendental conscious

and so forth. How can any form of consciousness or any

concept no matter how sublime survive upon

encountering the Heart, the core of Being, that is the

Self.

Self is Pure Consciousness. Not "This" consciousness

or "That" Consciousness. Where words and concepts fail

and fall in full awareness, that is Turya. Nirvikalpa

Samadhi gives the taste of Turya. One may say that

Sahaj Samadhi is Turyatitta (Beyond the forth). Turya

is Turyatitta.

Love to all

Harsha

=====

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July 9, 2002

, Harsha <harshaimtm> wrote:

>It occurs to me that only the most advanced adepts and

yogis and Realizers can follow the remarkable depth

behind simple appearing comments of Sri Ramana

Maharshi. The greatest yogis and Shankracharyas sat at

the feet of Sri Ramana for a good reason. Those with

an inability to understand the Sage of Arunachala

should keep such things in mind -- that their teachers

and their teachers teachers, stood in the shadows of

the Sage of Aruanchala to benefit from his glance.

.....i take it you like the guy?

:-))

LoveAlways,

b

July 9, 2002

Hi Harsha,

You wrote:

> It occurs to me that only the most advanced adepts and yogis and Realizers

can follow the remarkable depth behind simple appearing comments of Sri

Ramana Maharshi.

:-)))

If that were the case, then there would not be much hope, for simpletons

like us, would there be?

:-)))

The biggest problem is to look for depth in his teaching... It IS actually

very simple... not just in appearance...

Wim

(Oh gosh, I gave the secret key away!)

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July 9, 2002

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

>If that were the case, then there would not be much hope, for

simpletons

like us, would there be?

:-)))

The biggest problem is to look for depth in his teaching... It IS

actually

very simple... not just in appearance...

.....Really Wonderful, Dear Wim!

Thank you!

our teacher Adyashanti has mentioned that the greatest obstacle for

people awakening to their own True Nature these days is negative self-

image -- that they are somehow not worthy.

"When most people begin to come into contact with the true nature of

their own self, they have such a hard time accepting that they could

naturally be something positive and beautiful. In the west, many

people struggle with negative self-image. I have seen that negative

identity held onto even in the midst of profound revelation. It so

easily contracts back into, 'It couldn't be me. It couldn't be who I

am; it's just too good.' If I had a dollar for every time someone

told me that, I'd be a rich man!

It's pride. Pride in the form of an unwillingness to admit that all

the avenues that we try to pursue to make us happy don't ultimately

end in happiness. Yet, we continue to insist that they do in the face

of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The other kind of pride is

being unwilling to admit that you simply don't know who you really

are and that you don't know what life is about. Pride will keep

somebody from being able to say something that is obviously true.

When someone's willing to call into question these most fundamental

beliefs and ideas - that is the birth of true humility. It is

difficult for people to not be prideful because we have an

unconscious belief that to be humble is to feel bad about oneself. It

may be unconscious, but when we think of humility, we usually think

of something that's rather depressing. Shame. And this is

unfortunate, because shame is not humility at all. Actually, shame

and pride are two sides of the same coin. On one side is arrogance

and inflation and on the other side is shame and worthlessness. Yes,

and we can have a lot of pride wrapped up in being worthless. 'Don't

tell me I'm not worthless. My whole existence depends on it! ' This

is why the negative self-image is held onto so tightly. This whole

dilemma of the human condition is really an avoidance of emptiness,

an avoidance of the unknown. There is an emptiness in the midst of

the human condition, but it's not the threatening, empty emptiness

that the mind thinks it is. When one finally gets the courage to go

into it, it's found to be empty and at the same time pregnant with

every possibility there is."

Adyashanti

LoveAlways,

b

July 9, 2002

In any case, one can't

apply what one can't understand.

In fact, what is being applied

right now, is one's current

understanding.

And this is the result of that

application.

Why not take a good,

clear look at this situation,

right now, as it is?

How clear can you be about what is

happening, about the results now

and here of the application of

understanding that is this

present experience, as is?

However clear you can be now, is the

clarity that is being applied now.

There is always this ongoing, present

opportunity to look and see.

The one looking and seeing, that which is

being seen, and the understanding being

applied, turn out to be "not-two,"

or "Self" as Ramana would put it.

There is only "Self," only this "not-two"

and this experience now is the result

of your understanding, or misunderstanding,

of "what is."

There is nowhere else to get to, nothing else

to bring to it. You are already bringing to

it what you can bring to it. Yet, each moment

is an opportunity for change, for opening.

Whether you choose, are chosen, or

the entire situation is choiceless, who cares?

You do the best you can, right now.

What else is there?

Look and see, directly.

Namaste,

Dan

> Hi Harsha,

>

> You wrote:

>

> > It occurs to me that only the most advanced adepts and yogis and

Realizers

> can follow the remarkable depth behind simple appearing comments of

Sri

> Ramana Maharshi.

>

> :-)))

> If that were the case, then there would not be much hope, for

simpletons

> like us, would there be?

> :-)))

>

> The biggest problem is to look for depth in his teaching... It IS

actually

> very simple... not just in appearance...

>

> Wim

> (Oh gosh, I gave the secret key away!)

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 6/5/2002

July 9, 2002

, "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote:

You do the best you can, right now.

What else is there?

Look and see, directly.

Namaste,

Dan

.....Namaste, Danji!

July 9, 2002

Well, Bob, if it's pregnant with every possibility

there is, that includes the possibility for

negative self-esteem!

Duh!!

:-)

Calling it beautiful is very misleading, because it

makes it seem like it couldn't be this, it

couldn't be me being just this way.

And when teachers make themselves seem special,

and talk about our obstacles,

it actually feeds into the very negative self-perceptions

of students that the teachers then criticize!

I can never be as realized as you!

It's obvious, because here you are telling me what

an obstacle my negative self-esteem is, and

how beyond that you are, how you know you

are this *really good thing* "all possibilities"

and so on.

That it is all possibilities is a fact, and

that includes the possibility of Ramana, and

Adyashanti, and Hitler, and Lyme's disease,

and the street-cleaner,

flowers, cow dung, empty space. In fact, lots

and lots of empty space, which is as much actualizing

every possibility as human beings who claim or infer some

kind of enlightenment.

There actually is no obstacle to it anywhere, and

all the perceptions of obstacles are simply aspects

of possibilities included in "all possible possibilities."

The reason that people don't look into it isn't because

of their negative self-esteem.

In fact, their negative self-esteem is a result of their

attempt to have a way to not look into it,

one version of a way to try to maintain

a defense against being every possible possibility,

by convincing myself I know what I am, and I

am what I know myself to be.

(Which would also be true, of course, when

I know that I am beyond pride, or beyond

negative self-esteem.)

I don't want to look into it as it is, and would rather

have some kind of knowable self-esteem.

Adya seems on-target to me about it being unknown.

And he's missing the boat when saying

that it's not threatening. It may not

*really* be threatening, but that's only

true if you know yourself to be "what is."

Psychologically, it's extremely threatening,

until embracing the no-identity truth is able to

be actualized.

What enables this to be actualized?

Literally nothing. And that's what's threatening.

We want to know what's going on, what can make

what happen, and what can prevent what from

happening.

We don't want the truth of nothing being necessary,

nothing making anything be a certain way.

We shy away from the unknown, and from its close cousins

death, loss, chaos, limitation and uncertainty.

(The limitation is that if there is any possibility

with which we identify, that possibility is

inevitably limited by another opposing possibility,

such as illness or loss).

We find ways to reassure ourselves when faced with

this truth, the truth that indeed is all possible

possibilities, and which is right here, now,

with no external agency involved or making things

happen in a predetermined way.

What if there's no control?

(Of course, control isn't absent, it's just

one possibility, along with its opposite.)

So, I turn to what seems to be known -- my negative

self, or my positive self, or my being a student,

or a teacher, etc., some version of a controllable

situation.

Yet this very attempt to turn away from the unknown

is itself a possibility of the unknown being actualized

just like this.

The perception of something to turn away from, and

someone who could turn away from it, is a possibility

which is "this."

So, indeed, there is no such thing as turning away from it.

This is the psychological threat, because we want

to be able to turn away, to ensure we continue

the way we want to continue, to have some sense of

controlling what will happen.

Love,

Dan

> our teacher Adyashanti has mentioned that the greatest obstacle for

> people awakening to their own True Nature these days is negative

self-

> image -- that they are somehow not worthy.

>

> "When most people begin to come into contact with the true nature

of

> their own self, they have such a hard time accepting that they

could

> naturally be something positive and beautiful. In the west, many

> people struggle with negative self-image. I have seen that negative

> identity held onto even in the midst of profound revelation. It so

> easily contracts back into, 'It couldn't be me. It couldn't be who

I

> am; it's just too good.' If I had a dollar for every time someone

> told me that, I'd be a rich man!

> It's pride. Pride in the form of an unwillingness to admit that all

> the avenues that we try to pursue to make us happy don't ultimately

> end in happiness. Yet, we continue to insist that they do in the

face

> of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The other kind of pride

is

> being unwilling to admit that you simply don't know who you really

> are and that you don't know what life is about. Pride will keep

> somebody from being able to say something that is obviously true.

> When someone's willing to call into question these most fundamental

> beliefs and ideas - that is the birth of true humility. It is

> difficult for people to not be prideful because we have an

> unconscious belief that to be humble is to feel bad about oneself.

It

> may be unconscious, but when we think of humility, we usually think

> of something that's rather depressing. Shame. And this is

> unfortunate, because shame is not humility at all. Actually, shame

> and pride are two sides of the same coin. On one side is arrogance

> and inflation and on the other side is shame and worthlessness.

Yes,

> and we can have a lot of pride wrapped up in being

worthless. 'Don't

> tell me I'm not worthless. My whole existence depends on it! ' This

> is why the negative self-image is held onto so tightly. This whole

> dilemma of the human condition is really an avoidance of emptiness,

> an avoidance of the unknown. There is an emptiness in the midst of

> the human condition, but it's not the threatening, empty emptiness

> that the mind thinks it is. When one finally gets the courage to go

> into it, it's found to be empty and at the same time pregnant with

> every possibility there is."

>

> Adyashanti

>

> LoveAlways,

>

> b

July 9, 2002

Hi Robert,

You quote Adyashanti:

> 'Don't tell me I'm not worthless.

> My whole existence depends on it! '

Isn't that the case with so many of us?!

It is very hard for someone to discover

that unconditional love is the only reality

and that unworthiness is only in the

"mind" of the beholder,

beholding the pseudo-self or the pseudo-other .

Wim

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July 9, 2002

, "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote:

>Well, Bob, if it's pregnant with every possibility

there is, that includes the possibility for

negative self-esteem!

Duh!!

:-)

....... Ah, Mr. Twisty's waxin' misty!

:-))

>Calling it beautiful is very misleading, because it

makes it seem like it couldn't be this, it

couldn't be me being just this way.

And when teachers make themselves seem special,

and talk about our obstacles,

it actually feeds into the very negative self-perceptions

of students that the teachers then criticize!

...... Great point!

Keep in mind "context", of course. As was said here a while ago, one

can take Ramana's words and make it seem like he is wrestling with

himself. The vibration of the excerpt can be felt as an affirmation

directed (as a kind of pointing out) towards a particular attitude or

sense of self that maintains fixation. personally, i have found Adya

to be the least self-important ("aren't I special") of the current

satsang crop. he is almost unanimously recognized as a genuinely

free, human, caring soul who has a remarkable teaching skill, by

those who spend any regular time with him. i am curious to see how

his teaching evolves over time, since he is relatively young.

>I can never be as realized as you!

.....i realize that, but we don't have to let it get in the way of our

friendship!

>It's obvious, because here you are telling me what

an obstacle my negative self-esteem is, and

how beyond that you are, how you know you

are this *really good thing* "all possibilities"

and so on.

.....those damn teachers!

:-))

must boil down to the Bodhisattva-complex kind of thing, ya think?

>That it is all possibilities is a fact, and

that includes the possibility of Ramana, and

Adyashanti, and Hitler, and Lyme's disease,

and the street-cleaner,

flowers, cow dung, empty space. In fact, lots

and lots of empty space, which is as much actualizing

every possibility as human beings who claim or infer some

kind of enlightenment.

..... he would probably agree with you.

(i'm balking at Lyme's disease --

ticks me off!)

>There actually is no obstacle to it anywhere, and

all the perceptions of obstacles are simply aspects

of possibilities included in "all possible possibilities."

The reason that people don't look into it isn't because

of their negative self-esteem.

In fact, their negative self-esteem is a result of their

attempt to have a way to not look into it,

one version of a way to try to maintain

a defense against being every possible possibility,

by convincing myself I know what I am, and I

am what I know myself to be.

(Which would also be true, of course, when

I know that I am beyond pride, or beyond

negative self-esteem.)

I don't want to look into it as it is, and would rather

have some kind of knowable self-esteem.

.....Brilliant, Danji!

Truly Well-said!

(must i make a donation now? :-) )

>Adya seems on-target to me about it being unknown.

And he's missing the boat when saying

that it's not threatening. It may not

*really* be threatening, but that's only

true if you know yourself to be "what is."

.....Perhaps he's doing the "Yellow leaves" thing,

that old Buddhist deal for crying kids.

>Psychologically, it's extremely threatening,

until embracing the no-identity truth is able to

be actualized.

What enables this to be actualized?

Literally nothing. And that's what's threatening.

We want to know what's going on, what can make

what happen, and what can prevent what from

happening.

We don't want the truth of nothing being necessary,

nothing making anything be a certain way.

We shy away from the unknown, and from its close cousins

death, loss, chaos, limitation and uncertainty.

(The limitation is that if there is any possibility

with which we identify, that possibility is

inevitably limited by another opposing possibility,

such as illness or loss).

We find ways to reassure ourselves when faced with

this truth, the truth that indeed is all possible

possibilities, and which is right here, now,

with no external agency involved or making things

happen in a predetermined way.

What if there's no control?

(Of course, control isn't absent, it's just

one possibility, along with its opposite.)

So, I turn to what seems to be known -- my negative

self, or my positive self, or my being a student,

or a teacher, etc., some version of a controllable

situation.

Yet this very attempt to turn away from the unknown

is itself a possibility of the unknown being actualized

just like this.

The perception of something to turn away from, and

someone who could turn away from it, is a possibility

which is "this."

So, indeed, there is no such thing as turning away from it.

This is the psychological threat, because we want

to be able to turn away, to ensure we continue

the way we want to continue, to have some sense of

controlling what will happen.

....again, i don't think your two views are really far apart, having

heard him speak in a similar vein. many of these guys seem to

contradict themselves, when only approached from mind.

as was said, context is critical.

you yourself have aknowledged having been served by teachers.

certainly, there is nothing & nobody to serve, and yet somehow life

had its way with Danji, eh? otherwise, you might still be staring at

the salad bar, debating about lunch. :-))

that said, your analysis is superb, and i am grateful to hear such

expression of clarity!

Thank you, Dear Brother!

LoveAlways,

b

July 9, 2002

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

You quote Adyashanti:

> 'Don't tell me I'm not worthless.

> My whole existence depends on it! '

Isn't that the case with so many of us?!

It is very hard for someone to discover

that unconditional love is the only reality

and that unworthiness is only in the

"mind" of the beholder,

beholding the pseudo-self or the pseudo-other .

....Ah, Wim,

how enjoyable these chats, eh, with all our friends & family,

exploring the inherent beauty and mystery of our true nature?

i am just now reeling from Mazie's Heartcraft wordcraft, and Danji's

sharp Sword of Discrimination, and all the other beauties sprinkled

here for tasting and inspection by this gentle lovely Satsang!

i have personally so often encountered this sense of fear and

worthlessness, or inferiority, we are speaking about among the fellow

path-treaders in this culture. how it got there is not as important

as the inquiry: "Is it true?"

LoveAlways,

b

July 9, 2002

On 7/9/02 at 1:45 PM Wim Borsboom wrote:

ºHi Harsha,

º

ºYou wrote:

º

º> It occurs to me that only the most advanced adepts and yogis and

ºRealizers

ºcan follow the remarkable depth behind simple appearing comments of Sri

ºRamana Maharshi.

º

º:-)))

ºIf that were the case, then there would not be much hope, for simpletons

ºlike us, would there be?

º:-)))

The obvious is overlooked: the seekers wanted Self-realization and the

"advanced" yogis,

moksha (liberation).

º

ºThe biggest problem is to look for depth in his teaching... It IS actually

ºvery simple... not just in appearance...

Of course - when i read it for the first time, it already was very silent

and that didn't change ;-)

º

ºWim

º(Oh gosh, I gave the secret key away!)

Don't worry - enough keys have been left to continue the game :-)

Jan

July 9, 2002

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> Hi Robert,

> You quote Adyashanti:

'Don't tell me I'm not worthless.

My whole existence depends on it! '

> Isn't that the case with so many of us?!

It is very hard for someone to discover

that unconditional love is the only reality

and that unworthiness is only in the

"mind" of the beholder,

beholding the pseudo-self or the pseudo-other .

Dearest Wim,

In 1980 when i was prepared to take Kriya Yoga initiation and become

a disciple of Paramahansa Yoganandaji, i put it off for an entire

year because i thought i wasn't "worthy" of this relationship!

Somehow i thought i could and should become a better person first,

become more perfect, more pure, more right-living of an individual

before i would become worthy of this guru-disciple relationship. It

seems as if most who are waiting for some future awakening, some

other situation or circumstance that will bring about some new

awakening into a higher and finer consciousness have this same

problem to some degree or another. As if "It" can be gotten or had by

changing things, by preparing in some way the way things are Now, we

might be ready and more able and more deserving of this elusive

enlightenment or readiness for such enlightenment.

What a riot of laughter it seems now to me that i actually held to

such beliefs! When i finally did take the Kriya Yoga initiation, i

still somehow believed that there was something i could do to be more

deserving of this relationship, so i became celibate, i held to

vegetarianism totally, i refrained from any, (well, nearly any)

imbibing of any kind of mind-altering substances, i tried to be

kinder, more compassionate, more considerate and such things. Funny

thing is, even after i did take Kriya, i held to the celibacy for

nearly twenty-odd years with only a very brief foray into human-ness

and i tried to refrain from any and all externals of enjoyment

thinking that if i was a disciple of my Guruji i must be worthy of it

by acting out what i thought was necessary to get, to still get that

oh so elusive enlightenment.

Well i never did get any closer to that wished-for awareness, (as IF)

and i certainly didn't achieve any lasting Peace or Joy, although

being in Bliss was something that kind of hung on all on its own. But

it seems that the more i fought against giving in to anything i

thought would keep me from achieving these future aims and ideals and

such, the further they appeared to be for i became frustrated with

life and frustrated with my sadhana and i clearly became the thing i

so was trying to avoid - a bad disciple! At least as i viewed it at

the time i was this very bad disciple who couldn't even follow a few

simple rules. Sheesh! Then by some fine fortune i found this Satsangh

of Harshaji's and everything started unraveling of what i had so

neatly tied myself up in, the rituals, the doctrines, the

clannishness, the total buying into the idea that just a few more

Kriyas or a few more this or that or whatnot and i would get that

damned enlightenment i had been pursuing for so long. then when i

really started paying attention to what was being said here and a few

other places, i started feeling very uneasy about my path.

i then felt confused and disloyal at this line of thinking, of

thinking i might leave SRF and give up all the rituals, but finally,

BOING! i just got it. It all became so clear and i chucked all my old

identifications and ideas of doing this or not doing that, and well,

then the thing that was the best yet, the good and plenty hour came,

or it just presented in a form i could really relate to, could see

clearly as right here and right Now, no future coming of this thing,

no future giving up of this or that or such, and i just laughed and

threw myself into THIS MOMENT, Now, with no cares about it being

right or wrong or maybe or sooner or later or any of that.

And we all know the rest of the story. Love presented in the Beauty

of my Beloved, and my teacher, and my Friend, and my Joyful Heart

Singing, my Beloved Mashuq, Darling Robert. i guess that part doesn't

really have anything to do with my finally heaving all the old ideas,

for that was already a done deal, but how fortuitous that he entered

my life at the time when i could really, really appreciate this Love.

Gee Whiz! Isn't it all so perfect, As It is Now! Yep. Good Ol' God!

Sounds funny to say that, but hey, you know what i mean.

LoveAlways,

Mazie

> Wim

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July 9, 2002

Yes Jan, Dan and Shawn,

I wrote:

>> (Oh gosh, I gave the secret key away!)

You wrote:

> Don't worry - enough keys have been left to continue the game :-)

Dan wrote:

> In any case, one can't

> apply what one can't understand.

Shawn wrote:

> It says, "pdjdyr4%#@#@**!!!!!1**8*qzpfhg%^5jjjj," and the beauty is,

> the not-understanding IS perfectly acceptable.

That is so true, in the face of evidence no understanding is needed

and real evidence does not open itself to second guessing.

Wim

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July 9, 2002

on 7/9/02 1:47 PM, mazie_l at sraddha54 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com wrote: