Guest guest Posted July 17, 2002 Report Share Posted July 17, 2002 Hi All, I don't know where to go with this, so I will just share it... I have been reading the collected writings of Ramana Maharshi, along with Poonja, the Ribhu Gita, Vasistha's Yoga, and the Bhagavad Gita. The common thread is Advaita Vedanta, of course. There seems to be a "self" (ego-sense) which is born and dies, which is reborn and dies, ad nauseum. Beyond that is "Self" or "SELF", Brahman which is all and everything, from which all comes and to which all returns. The realization/insight is this. It is not "I" (self) who is born and who dies, and who is stuck in the cycle of unending births and deaths -- it is "SELF", Brahman, All Consciousness. The bottom line is not only must I transcend my own desire to "live", to be immortal, but my desire to become "One with Brahman", to become "One with Infinite Consciousness" is just another way of trying to survive, to cling to life, to maintain my ego. This means that not only must I transcend my own desire to survive as a "self", but also I must transcend my desire to survive as "SELF", as Brahman, that is, Brahman must transcend its desire to survive, to be. (I am not confusing this Brahman with Brahma, the Creator). All of those births and deaths are of the making of the Consciousness that is the Absolute Brahman. Even if "I" exit the cycle of births and deaths, samsara, the "SELF" must also exit the cycle of births and deaths. IT MUST ALSO GIVE UP THE GAME, THE LILA, THE DANCE or IT WON'T END even if I somehow manage to leave the "dance floor". The trap is doubled it seems. I have my own trap, but I am also trapped in Brahman's trap -- and if Consciousness chooses to give what appears to be me rebirth, it will!!! In computer language, we appear to be stuck in an infinite looping condition inside a computer and the only way out is to unplug the master computer. Now how do we deal with that? John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2002 Report Share Posted July 17, 2002 Why think of all this? Who is wanting to figure it out? Who the hell is this Brahman character? Begin with what you know, where you are. .....and just what *do* you *know*?The trap to be worried about is this one of thinking and conceptualising instead of observing. Notice that you are trying to figure all this out? namaste,Shawn on 7/17/02 3:01 PM, johnrloganis at johnrloganis wrote: > Hi All, > I don't know where to go with this, so I will just share it... > > I have been reading the collected writings of Ramana Maharshi, along > with Poonja, the Ribhu Gita, Vasistha's Yoga, and the Bhagavad Gita. > The common thread is Advaita Vedanta, of course. > > There seems to be a "self" (ego-sense) which is born and dies, which > is reborn and dies, ad nauseum. > > Beyond that is "Self" or "SELF", Brahman which is all and everything, > from which all comes and to which all returns. > > The realization/insight is this. It is not "I" (self) who is born and > who dies, and who is stuck in the cycle of unending births and > deaths -- it is "SELF", Brahman, All Consciousness. > > The bottom line is not only must I transcend my own desire to "live", > to be immortal, but my desire to become "One with Brahman", to > become "One with Infinite Consciousness" is just another way of > trying to survive, to cling to life, to maintain my ego. > > This means that not only must I transcend my own desire to survive as > a "self", but also I must transcend my desire to survive as "SELF", > as Brahman, that is, Brahman must transcend its desire to survive, to > be. (I am not confusing this Brahman with Brahma, the Creator). All > of those births and deaths are of the making of the Consciousness > that is the Absolute Brahman. > > Even if "I" exit the cycle of births and deaths, samsara, the "SELF" > must also exit the cycle of births and deaths. IT MUST ALSO GIVE UP > THE GAME, THE LILA, THE DANCE or IT WON'T END even if I somehow > manage to leave the "dance floor". > > The trap is doubled it seems. I have my own trap, but I am also > trapped in Brahman's trap -- and if Consciousness chooses to give > what appears to be me rebirth, it will!!! > > In computer language, we appear to be stuck in an infinite looping > condition inside a computer and the only way out is to unplug the > master computer. > > Now how do we deal with that? > > John L. > > > Sponsor > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the > ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. > A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising > from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Terms of Service > <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 On Wed, 17 Jul 2002, shawn wrote: > Why think of all this? Who is wanting to figure it out? Who the hell is this > Brahman character? Begin with what you know, where you are. > > ....and just what *do* you *know*?The trap to be worried about is this one > of thinking and conceptualising instead of observing. Notice that you are > trying to figure all this out? ad in a paper: Lost: One I Attributes: Likes things that boost up the ego, especially desire, ignorance and aversion. If found, please don't return. No one really ever owned it anyway. --dao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 , "johnrloganis" <johnrloganis> wrote: > In computer language, we appear to be stuck in an infinite looping > condition inside a computer and the only way out is to unplug the > master computer. In emotional language you describe despair... > Now how do we deal with that? Embrace it. Breathe love into it. The computer like ego will unplug itself like a dream upon waking up and all will be as if it never was... As Always, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Dear Wim, thank you for the humour and clarity! love eric Hi John, You wrote: > I don't know where to go with this, so I will just share it... Realization is really very simple, so if understanding gets hard and complex, and if you cannot just simply get it now, you are on the "wrong track"... commonly called the "spiritual path"... It seems that you are well on it, your foot firmly stuck on a sticky patch of asphalt. You appear to have talked yourself nicely into a vicious circle... Is the groove also getting deeper? Vicious Circles? You know those traffic circles... easy to get on, hard to get off...? Spiritual paths tend to intersect that way... Wrong Track? The "wrong track" is the same as "a spiritual path" or a "fashionable new age cruise travel package". You have a choice, any time. Either you stay with the "travel package", the spiritual cruise that covers all ports and lets you see all the sites, or you open the package "that you are" right now. But we need not to be so harsh or hasty. It does not matter actually what you choose, as the "wrong track / cruise / path" will lead you to yourself anyway, just a little later than sooner... So even if you are on the "wrong track" you'll lose nothing much but a bit of time... but you will go through the concomitant sentiments that are offered along the way: the freebies that come with every new age cruise package... and those freebies come also with their usual amount of disappointment. So do you want the rich fascinations of the trip, getting into all the nooks and crannies, and wait some, let's say...eh... ten years for the moment that it dawns on you that ten years ago you could have been here already. Or are you here already now... ? What does this "now" entail? Nothing much, just a simple functioning in life through simple love. Good start... good ending... and the going is good... > I have been reading the collected writings of > Ramana Maharshi, along with Poonja, the Ribhu > Gita, Vasistha's Yoga, and the Bhagavad Gita. > The common thread is Advaita Vedanta, of course. Ok you did that. Did you try to understand these scriptures with "what you used to know", by using the usual workings of your mind as it got "entrained" in our usual society, and did you do all that through the eyes of who-you-think-you-are? If so, none of these scriptures will be clear, you will just not get it. And even the comments on these scriptures and the stuff people like us write about, it will just make all this even more confusing... > There seems to be a "self" (ego-sense) which is born and dies, > which is reborn and dies, ad nauseum. Just forget about that, it does not work that way. > Beyond that is "Self" or "SELF", Brahman which is > all and everything, from which all comes and to which > all returns. So what? Just be John... Why staring yourself blind on something so lofty or maybe conceptual, if you can run into your lovely self every moment of the day? > The realization/insight is this. It is not "I" (self) who > is born and who dies, and who is stuck in the cycle > of unending births and deaths -- it is "SELF", Brahman, > All Consciousness. How do you know all that, how can you know all that when you don't even know yourself. > The bottom line is not only must I transcend my > own desire to "live", to be immortal, but my desire > to become "One with Brahman", to become > "One with Infinite Consciousness" is just another > way of trying to survive, to cling to life, to maintain > my ego. Take it easy, make some mistakes... and take credit for them. If you don't run into a table, how can you ever learn to walk around it... >>>This means that not only must I transcend my own desire to survive as a "self", but also I must transcend my desire to survive as "SELF", as Brahman, that is, Brahman must transcend its desire to survive, to be. (I am not confusing this Brahman with Brahma, the Creator). All of those births and deaths are of the making of the Consciousness that is the Absolute Brahman. <<< My Gosh, John... this is thick soup and the meatballs in it don't even fit the bowl...:-) >>>Even if "I" exit the cycle of births and deaths, samsara, the "SELF" must also exit the cycle of births and deaths. IT MUST ALSO GIVE UP THE GAME, THE LILA, THE DANCE or IT WON'T END even if I somehow manage to leave the "dance floor".<<< Come on now John, Krishna danced, Ramakrishna did... OK, maybe Ramana did not... but what do I know? >>> The trap is doubled it seems. I have my own trap, but I am also trapped in Brahman's trap -- and if Consciousness chooses to give what appears to be me rebirth, it will!!! <<< There must be something wrong here, when your idea of liberation is trapped with traps... >>> In computer language, we appear to be stuck in an infinite looping condition inside a computer and the only way out is to unplug the master computer. <<< Rebooting will do, there is no need to unplug... Just take a deep breath, yawn and stretch, rub your eyes, you dug yourself in too deep, look over the edge... now just find the easy way out. If it is not simple, it is of no use... Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release 7/10/2002 ------------------------ Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click./TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/bpSolB/TM ---~-> /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Hi John, You wrote: > I don't know where to go with this, so I will just share it... Realization is really very simple, so if understanding gets hard and complex, and if you cannot just simply get it now, you are on the "wrong track"... commonly called the "spiritual path"... It seems that you are well on it, your foot firmly stuck on a sticky patch of asphalt. You appear to have talked yourself nicely into a vicious circle... Is the groove also getting deeper? Vicious Circles? You know those traffic circles... easy to get on, hard to get off...? Spiritual paths tend to intersect that way... Wrong Track? The "wrong track" is the same as "a spiritual path" or a "fashionable new age cruise travel package". You have a choice, any time. Either you stay with the "travel package", the spiritual cruise that covers all ports and lets you see all the sites, or you open the package "that you are" right now. But we need not to be so harsh or hasty. It does not matter actually what you choose, as the "wrong track / cruise / path" will lead you to yourself anyway, just a little later than sooner... So even if you are on the "wrong track" you'll lose nothing much but a bit of time... but you will go through the concomitant sentiments that are offered along the way: the freebies that come with every new age cruise package... and those freebies come also with their usual amount of disappointment. So do you want the rich fascinations of the trip, getting into all the nooks and crannies, and wait some, let's say...eh... ten years for the moment that it dawns on you that ten years ago you could have been here already. Or are you here already now... ? What does this "now" entail? Nothing much, just a simple functioning in life through simple love. Good start... good ending... and the going is good... > I have been reading the collected writings of > Ramana Maharshi, along with Poonja, the Ribhu > Gita, Vasistha's Yoga, and the Bhagavad Gita. > The common thread is Advaita Vedanta, of course. Ok you did that. Did you try to understand these scriptures with "what you used to know", by using the usual workings of your mind as it got "entrained" in our usual society, and did you do all that through the eyes of who-you-think-you-are? If so, none of these scriptures will be clear, you will just not get it. And even the comments on these scriptures and the stuff people like us write about, it will just make all this even more confusing... > There seems to be a "self" (ego-sense) which is born and dies, > which is reborn and dies, ad nauseum. Just forget about that, it does not work that way. > Beyond that is "Self" or "SELF", Brahman which is > all and everything, from which all comes and to which > all returns. So what? Just be John... Why staring yourself blind on something so lofty or maybe conceptual, if you can run into your lovely self every moment of the day? > The realization/insight is this. It is not "I" (self) who > is born and who dies, and who is stuck in the cycle > of unending births and deaths -- it is "SELF", Brahman, > All Consciousness. How do you know all that, how can you know all that when you don't even know yourself. > The bottom line is not only must I transcend my > own desire to "live", to be immortal, but my desire > to become "One with Brahman", to become > "One with Infinite Consciousness" is just another > way of trying to survive, to cling to life, to maintain > my ego. Take it easy, make some mistakes... and take credit for them. If you don't run into a table, how can you ever learn to walk around it... >>>This means that not only must I transcend my own desire to survive as a "self", but also I must transcend my desire to survive as "SELF", as Brahman, that is, Brahman must transcend its desire to survive, to be. (I am not confusing this Brahman with Brahma, the Creator). All of those births and deaths are of the making of the Consciousness that is the Absolute Brahman. <<< My Gosh, John... this is thick soup and the meatballs in it don't even fit the bowl...:-) >>>Even if "I" exit the cycle of births and deaths, samsara, the "SELF" must also exit the cycle of births and deaths. IT MUST ALSO GIVE UP THE GAME, THE LILA, THE DANCE or IT WON'T END even if I somehow manage to leave the "dance floor".<<< Come on now John, Krishna danced, Ramakrishna did... OK, maybe Ramana did not... but what do I know? >>> The trap is doubled it seems. I have my own trap, but I am also trapped in Brahman's trap -- and if Consciousness chooses to give what appears to be me rebirth, it will!!! <<< There must be something wrong here, when your idea of liberation is trapped with traps... >>> In computer language, we appear to be stuck in an infinite looping condition inside a computer and the only way out is to unplug the master computer. <<< Rebooting will do, there is no need to unplug... Just take a deep breath, yawn and stretch, rub your eyes, you dug yourself in too deep, look over the edge... now just find the easy way out. If it is not simple, it is of no use... Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release 7/10/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 On 7/18/02 at 1:01 AM johnrloganis wrote: [...] ºThe trap is doubled it seems. I have my own trap, but I am also ºtrapped in Brahman's trap -- and if Consciousness chooses to give ºwhat appears to be me rebirth, it will!!! Hi John, The trap is seeming - the myriad of subroutines running as "conditioning", like ideas/opinions/judgments slow down other programs or prevent them from running, or worse still, prevent the detection of their presence. º ºIn computer language, we appear to be stuck in an infinite looping ºcondition inside a computer and the only way out is to unplug the ºmaster computer. The master computer is the universe, unplugging it would require an "outside" and there is none... º ºNow how do we deal with that? "All creatures come and go, what remains is the show" means that the universal processing power shines in every creature (as a potential). Ramana realized the Self by going through a death experience and a similar story is narrated in the Kathopanishad. Part of the death process is forgiving/taking leave/seeing the relativeness of all opinions. Many subroutines are abandoned (not the same as avoidance) and then, suddenly the pristine stillness reveals itself. Spontaneous joy is when the subroutine "fear of loss and death" has been removed from the system, not longer can be called from programs like "dreaming" or "pain". I know, "death" isn't a popular theme like "who am i?" or "i am that!" but why delay the inevitable? Do you realize "mood" is also determined by the subroutines you're not aware of, the stuff running in the background? BTW, the above isn't mere theory: life turned 180 degrees when i survived a suicide attempt. To continue life although having taken leave of it is weirdness beyond expression. Don't imitate that - it can be easier as the Kathopanishad clearly shows. Peace, Jan º ºJohn L. º º º º/join º º º º º ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of ºSelf-Knowledge, spont ºaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. º º º ºYour use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: [snip] > Take it easy, make some mistakes... and take credit for them. > If you don't run into a table, how can you ever learn to walk > around it... Bodies learn to walk around tables without an entity to take credit for walking into them, just as minds acquire a belief they are enlightened despite the fact there is no entity to be so. --jody. [snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Dear John: To me what you are describing is the Self and not-self. To discriminate between them is the effort of Raja Yoga and all spiritual endeavors. How we describe that to others is not so important as the discrimainating process itself. Purifying the discriminating mechanism and clarification of conflicting concepts is part of it in my opinion. Thanks bobby G. , "johnrloganis" <johnrloganis> wrote: > Hi All, > I don't know where to go with this, so I will just share it... > > I have been reading the collected writings of Ramana Maharshi, along > with Poonja, the Ribhu Gita, Vasistha's Yoga, and the Bhagavad Gita. > The common thread is Advaita Vedanta, of course. > > There seems to be a "self" (ego-sense) which is born and dies, which > is reborn and dies, ad nauseum. > > Beyond that is "Self" or "SELF", Brahman which is all and everything, > from which all comes and to which all returns. > > The realization/insight is this. It is not "I" (self) who is born and > who dies, and who is stuck in the cycle of unending births and > deaths -- it is "SELF", Brahman, All Consciousness. > > The bottom line is not only must I transcend my own desire to "live", > to be immortal, but my desire to become "One with Brahman", to > become "One with Infinite Consciousness" is just another way of > trying to survive, to cling to life, to maintain my ego. > > This means that not only must I transcend my own desire to survive as > a "self", but also I must transcend my desire to survive as "SELF", > as Brahman, that is, Brahman must transcend its desire to survive, to > be. (I am not confusing this Brahman with Brahma, the Creator). All > of those births and deaths are of the making of the Consciousness > that is the Absolute Brahman. > > Even if "I" exit the cycle of births and deaths, samsara, the "SELF" > must also exit the cycle of births and deaths. IT MUST ALSO GIVE UP > THE GAME, THE LILA, THE DANCE or IT WON'T END even if I somehow > manage to leave the "dance floor". > > The trap is doubled it seems. I have my own trap, but I am also > trapped in Brahman's trap -- and if Consciousness chooses to give > what appears to be me rebirth, it will!!! > > In computer language, we appear to be stuck in an infinite looping > condition inside a computer and the only way out is to unplug the > master computer. > > Now how do we deal with that? > > John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 on 7/17/02 9:59 PM, Wim Borsboom at wim wrote: > > You have a choice, any time. Either you stay with the "travel package", the > spiritual cruise that covers all ports and lets you see all the sites, or > you open the package "that you are" right now. > > But we need not to be so harsh or hasty. > It does not matter actually what you choose, as the "wrong track / cruise / > path" will lead you to yourself anyway, just a little later than sooner... > So even if you are on the "wrong track" you'll lose nothing much but a bit > of time... but you will go through the concomitant sentiments that are > offered along the way: the freebies that come with every new age cruise > package... and those freebies come also with their usual amount of > disappointment. =========== I like this, Wim. Travel-package ahhhahah, that's great. This "who am I" get's a bit mundane and ineffective for most people, I think. (like me) Like diets, people want to know *how* to get thin....or like alchoholics, we want and need help because the addiction to the false identity is so strong and Ramana just says, "don't eatdon't drink" or really..."*be* hungry". loveand brochures, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 The realization/insight is this. It is not "I" (self) who is born and who dies, and who is stuck in the cycle of unending births and deaths -- it is Brahman. The bottom line is not only must I transcend my own desire to "live", to be immortal, but my desire to become "One with Brahman", to become "One with Infinite Consciousness" is just another way of trying to survive, to cling to life, to maintain my ego.This means that not only must I transcend my own desire to survive as a "self", but also I must transcend my desire to survive as "SELF", as Brahman, that is, Brahman must transcend its desire to survive, to be. (I am not confusing this Brahman with Brahma, the Creator). All of those births and deaths are of the making of the Consciousness that is the Absolute Brahman.Even if "I" exit the cycle of births and deaths, samsara, the "SELF" must also exit the cycle of births and deaths. IT MUST ALSO GIVE UP THE GAME, THE LILA, THE DANCE or IT WON'T END even if I somehow manage to leave the "dance floor".The trap is doubled it seems. I have my own trap, but I am also trapped in Brahman's trap -- and if Consciousness chooses to give what appears to be me rebirth, it will!!!In computer language, we appear to be stuck in an infinite looping condition inside a computer and the only way out is to unplug the master computer.Now how do we deal with that?John L.Dear John, How to deal with it? We start dying to self now in order to beat that last minute rush, just as every spiritual path recommends. But telling that ego self to just transcend it's desire to live is about as useless as yelling at a puppy for peeing on the floor. It's being itself, what it is. Obviously a little ego self has to have already broken thru enough denial and wishful thinking to realize it's doomed no matter what. Seeing that the idea of "becoming Brahman" might just be a way to piggyback ride into immortality takes a rather rigorous self-honesty. You are to be congratulated! (Oh, please laugh --it is a humorous idea isn't it?) Forgive me, but in my imagination I can hear someone saying something like: first become Brahman, Consciousness, then see if you need to exit the Lila. I mean would this still be the same John Loganis I am presumably talking to here (still maintaining his ego)? (I don't mean by this to contradict the "you are That" realizers...I'm aiming at this question from another angle is all. The difference between just being told so as a "belief" to acquire, and really knowing.) Forgive me, but I tend to get lost in concepts and theories, and need to take a more earthy practical approach. I've sorta lost interest in discussing all this advaita on an intellectual basis. If Jesus says it is more blessed to give than receive" I would say, ok let's do that and see what happens. Hmmm... do I feel blessed and happier? So there are a lot of ways to die to self, pick a few and do them. (please I'm not saying you haven't already John..obviously you have, just how I would answer the question you asked of how to deal with it.) Not that I am any shining example, far from it, but this is where I'm coming from. Figuring it out with my mind using concepts is like looking up the answers in the back of the book, I still don't know how to "do that- what they say in the book" till I learn how myself. This might take some actual spiritual practices, you think? So you ask a question here, you get answers from a variety of perpectives, and that's a good thing. If mine isn't helpful, no worries, I'm just talking to myself anyway. the undead, Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 So you ask a question here, you get answers from a variety of perpectives, and that's a good thing. If mine isn't helpful, no worries, I'm just talking to myself anyway. Hiya Gloria, 'Scuse me for butting in here, but this "I'm just talking to myself anyway" really irks me when I hear it (or the 'You are only talking to yourself' while trying to make a conversation with someone.) It doesn't irk me in the irritated kinda way, but that you, Gloria of all people, are underestimating yourself. (and no, I'm not underestimating myself). Your words to John are your words from your heart to his if he wants them. And if he doesn't, it was already yours to begin with, and you wouldn't have given them if you hadn't already accepted and known the words as yours. You weren't talking to yourself. You were having a conversation with him. There came a point in my life where I stopped talking to myself and the other, and began talking only to the other alone. What??!@!!! How can that be when we are One? Well, you are one, I am one, he is one, she is one, we are all one. You and me together do not make One -- because then without you, I'd only be a half. :-) (1 whole plus 1 whole = 2 wholes). And the more I include others to be one with me, the less "I" am. (But we want less of "I", right? Get rid of that "I", that ego). And that is true during a certain point along the path. I had to use another to help teach and learn myself, by talking to myself. I only knew I was whole by doing that. I didn't fully understand I and everyone else was always whole! You are you and I am me, with all our wonderful mistakes, faults, opinions, and beautiful things about us. And when I talk to you Glo, I want you to know I am really talking to you. Not me, not something I need to learn, nor something you need to learn. Just sharing, and like you said 'take it or leave it'. And when you talk, I know you are talking to me, not yourself. It eventually gets to be a tiresome world out there just talking to yourself, seeing everyone as l/2 of our whole. If I said it, or you said it, then it is something we've embraced and know. And if I'm wrong in any knowing, I'm wrong. If I'm right, I'm right. And I hope you would tell me I'm right or wrong as this is how we grow if we all remain openminded.... through and with each other. And if both are right, or both are wrong, that's okay too. But really, I say who gives a crap. I don't listen to myself anyway. And if I ever said anything good, maybe someone will remind me someday if I need to hear it again because I temporarily forgot. I listen to you all the time. If I listened to me, I'd be kicking myself in the butt most the day. :-) Gloria, your words have always meant more to me than you will ever know. You know why? Because they come from your heart, which is who you are. They come from what you know. (not what you need to know) Hugs, xxxtg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Johnrloganis & Friends, Well, john. I hope you're listening to your Uncle Bobby because I don't think you're going to get much better advice for the long haul than he's just given you. It will also serve you well if you accept right now that you're in it for the long haul. Very few of us, if any get to turn it off, and if we had been granted that minor siddhi, I'll bet you anything that at one time or another all of us would have thrown in the towel and cancelled our ticket to the resurrection. Learn to take comfort and companionship in satsangh. To paraphrase Rockefeller, I've lived with it and I've lived without it, and believe me, living with it is better.The dilemma and confusion that you're experiencing is something all of us have been through, to one degree or another, and the way to see yourself through it, as Bobby has just pointed out, is to increase your ability to see yourself (small s), to witness the workings and expectations of your own mind. That's purifying the vehicle. If you're like most of us, first, you 'll make notes and observations about yourself, your idiosyncrasies, desire patterns and the individual characters who speak TO you AS you. In time, many of these voices fade away as you see them for what they are. In any case, when it all seems like horseshit, like a waste of your precious life, Bobby, Wim, Glo, Harsha, Jerry and others will be here to share their stories and help you regain your perspective, and you will find the satsangh that they offer a valuable asset. Of course, if you can access a satsangh that's local to you, that would be a good idea, too. Good luck with it all, yours in the bonds, eric , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > Dear John: > > To me what you are describing is the Self and not-self. To > discriminate between them is the effort of Raja Yoga and all > spiritual endeavors. How we describe that to others is not so > important as the discrimainating process itself. Purifying the > discriminating mechanism and clarification of conflicting concepts is > part of it in my opinion. > Thanks > bobby G. > > > , "johnrloganis" <johnrloganis> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I don't know where to go with this, so I will just share it... > > > > I have been reading the collected writings of Ramana Maharshi, > along > > with Poonja, the Ribhu Gita, Vasistha's Yoga, and the Bhagavad > Gita. > > The common thread is Advaita Vedanta, of course. > > > > There seems to be a "self" (ego-sense) which is born and dies, > which > > is reborn and dies, ad nauseum. > > > > Beyond that is "Self" or "SELF", Brahman which is all and > everything, > > from which all comes and to which all returns. > > > > The realization/insight is this. It is not "I" (self) who is born > and > > who dies, and who is stuck in the cycle of unending births and > > deaths -- it is "SELF", Brahman, All Consciousness. > > > > The bottom line is not only must I transcend my own desire > to "live", > > to be immortal, but my desire to become "One with Brahman", to > > become "One with Infinite Consciousness" is just another way of > > trying to survive, to cling to life, to maintain my ego. > > > > This means that not only must I transcend my own desire to survive > as > > a "self", but also I must transcend my desire to survive as "SELF", > > as Brahman, that is, Brahman must transcend its desire to survive, > to > > be. (I am not confusing this Brahman with Brahma, the Creator). All > > of those births and deaths are of the making of the Consciousness > > that is the Absolute Brahman. > > > > Even if "I" exit the cycle of births and deaths, samsara, > the "SELF" > > must also exit the cycle of births and deaths. IT MUST ALSO GIVE UP > > THE GAME, THE LILA, THE DANCE or IT WON'T END even if I somehow > > manage to leave the "dance floor". > > > > The trap is doubled it seems. I have my own trap, but I am also > > trapped in Brahman's trap -- and if Consciousness chooses to give > > what appears to be me rebirth, it will!!! > > > > In computer language, we appear to be stuck in an infinite looping > > condition inside a computer and the only way out is to unplug the > > master computer. > > > > Now how do we deal with that? > > > > John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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