Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Hi All, First of all, thank you for your responses. Secondly, a little background, especially for several who took time to take differing slants on the subject. I, too, have walked through a near death experience. In January of 2000 I had surgery for throat cancer and ended up in ICU for 18 days, 15 of which I was on a Respirator with a trach tube in my throat so I could breathe. This was followed by radiation therapy for 35 treatments over a two month period. About six months prior I had had a "death" premonition which took away my fear of death completely: As I was looking out over the grass and trees in a local park, everything started undulating into waves of energy and I disappeared (as it were) into the vibration of all and everything. This lasted about two minutes and I found myself back to normal. I didn't know what to make of it at the time. Nothing I had done prior stopped the cancer, no alternative therapies, no spiritual activities -- and afterward the only thing which brought any kind of serenity was a sequence in order involving absolute metaphysics (Willim Samual) Taoism Buddhism Krishnamurti Ramana Maharshi All pointed in the Advaita (Non-Dual) direction. During it all I did do self-awareness and nature/natural awareness. Along with the "Who am I?" self-enquiry I have been reading the writings of Ramana Maharshi and noted that he made reference to various writings for his disciples -- and that he did come out of a context of Shaivite and Advaita Vedantist training. There are strong recommendations for the Bhagavad Gita, in particular, and the Ribhu Gita, as containing the whole of his viewpoint, especially in chapter 26. As I alternated reading RM's writings, and Self-Enquiry, I noticed that the word for that was Vicara - and that it was well-known and taught throughout the history of India, mostly in the same or similar terms. Virtually all the sages, gurus, teachers of Self-Enquiry indicated that ultimately however "self" was discovered, the end result was identification and merger with Brahman, the undefineable infinite. The context of the practice of "vicara" is liberation from the cycle of births and deaths, indeed, the word commonly used is "samsara" (the meaning has shifted a bit in Buddhism). This clearly is the context of RM and his followers, including Poonja and others. They are all equally clear about "getting to Self-Enquiry", but also indicate the why as well, getting beyond samsara. As I have been doing Self-Enquiry for some time I have been having a variety of experiences, including the loss of ego in a kind of energy exchange with everything, in which "self" becomes as Thich Nhat Hanh calls it "interdependent being". I have had awareness of the sense of "universal allness", a touch of "Brahman" as it were. And inbetween there has been everything from "I am this body" to "I am life" to "I am all my ancestors and all my progeny" to .... I am not holding onto any of it. I am taking RM's and Poonja's words to heart! literally and that is, Ask "Who am I?" and let it reveal itself. In the meantime the "sages" all come down to the same answer -- "self is Brahman". Brahman is Consciousness itself, Pure Consciousness, and from that all creation and dissolution comes. And from that all is suffering, and it cycles over and over without end. My little piece of Self-Enquiry tends to find agreement. The peace and serenity which comes with Self-Enquiry is not despair, yet the question remains: Why? There is change, there is movement and no state of consciousness and no condition remains unchanged even with matured Self-Enquiry. Many of the Advaita Vedantists including Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadetta Maharaj, and Ramakrishna, died of throat cancer, the same cancer I had surgery for! Now that is a puzzlement for which quick, cute answers aren't the solution. In the meantime, I continue with Self-Enquiry, and I will continue to ask questions, and I will continue to appreciate love and those who share their love with all of us in this group. John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 on 7/18/02 12:10 PM, johnrloganis at johnrloganis wrote: > > My little piece of Self-Enquiry tends to find agreement. > The peace and serenity which comes with Self-Enquiry is not despair, > yet the question remains: Why? > > There is change, there is movement and no state of consciousness and > no condition remains unchanged even with matured Self-Enquiry. ================= There is constant change in what is being thought , seen heard, felt-identified with. There is a noticing always present and unchanging, but we *overlook* it. If you feel-think that your state of consciousness always changes, look closer. Is this consciousness a thing.? Are you identified with something. What are you identified with. Look at the story of "you." Isn't that an object to awareness? Because we are it. It is the backround. It is the "ground"....our "being" and there are no answaers in it, no questions. And yet it is full of everything! Questions and answers appear to us, bodies and diseases, joys, everything. What supports it? Your "awareness." What is that? No one can tell you ...it is us. What is always here? Always the same? Is there something? Yes! It is awareness, whatever that is! Practice noticing awareness. we are actors who have taken our parts too seriously.... Namaste, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Hi John, You wrote: > Many of the Advaita Vedantists including Ramana > Maharshi, Nisargadetta Maharaj, and Ramakrishna, > died of throat cancer, the same cancer I had surgery for! And Sri Aurobindo died from prostrate cancer and... and ... and... > Now that is a puzzlement for which quick, > cute answers aren't the solution. I sincerely hope that you did not see my answer to you as cute or light-hearted... You know how in my past great trouble had befallen me... My answer to you came from my way of coming out of the deep rut I had ended up in. I have also read pretty well the same or similar material as you have but I still say, although it is good that I read it all, in the long run it was not the reading and acquired knowledge that helped me... It was the letting go of that requisite reading that cleared me... the getting off the path... It is a conundrum..., it is a paradox... it is ambiguous... it could be maddening > In the meantime, I continue with Self-Enquiry, > and I will continue to ask questions, and I will > continue to appreciate love and those who share > their love with all of us in this group. Yes do continue, and accept our love, our deep and heartfelt love... When you fall out of everything else, you will find that you have fully fallen in love. Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release 7/10/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Hi Shawn and Wim, Thanks for your quick responses. I wrote an answer to your posts - and it seems to have disappeared into the maw of and gotten lost. Shawn, your post helped directly - my head. Wim, your post spoke to my heart. I am in a variety of groups, and the love in this group sings. The posts are thoughtful, sharing and are filled with love and song. My work involved systems analysis and I can get caught up in that approach to things. It is very objective as an approach but ... It is hard for me to back off into simplicity. Thanks for the followup clarifications. It is one thing to say "Don't do that"; it is another to say "How to do what needs to be done" with clarity. Namaste, John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 "Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding and marketh the culmination of man's development." Baha U'llah - Commentary on *He who knows his self knows his Lord* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 On 7/18/02 at 10:10 PM johnrloganis wrote: ºHi All, ºFirst of all, thank you for your responses. º ºSecondly, a little background, especially for several who took time ºto take differing slants on the subject. º ºI, too, have walked through a near death experience. In January of º2000 I had surgery for throat cancer and ended up in ICU for 18 days, º15 of which I was on a Respirator with a trach tube in my throat so I ºcould breathe. This was followed by radiation therapy for 35 ºtreatments over a two month period. Did the NDE fit in with the stereotypes? (Some NDE's don't and are more like 'hell' instead of 'heaven') º ºAbout six months prior I had had a "death" premonition which took ºaway my fear of death completely: As I was looking out over the grass ºand trees in a local park, everything started undulating into waves ºof energy and I disappeared (as it were) into the vibration of all ºand everything. This lasted about two minutes and I found myself back ºto normal. I didn't know what to make of it at the time. Did the experience change your outlook on life and with that, responsiveness? º ºNothing I had done prior stopped the cancer, no alternative ºtherapies, no spiritual activities -- and afterward the only thing ºwhich brought any kind of serenity was a sequence in order involving º ºabsolute metaphysics (Willim Samual) ºTaoism ºBuddhism ºKrishnamurti ºRamana Maharshi Impressive list! º ºAll pointed in the Advaita (Non-Dual) direction. During it all I did ºdo self-awareness and nature/natural awareness. Along with the "Who ºam I?" self-enquiry I have been reading the writings of Ramana ºMaharshi and noted that he made reference to various writings for his ºdisciples -- and that he did come out of a context of Shaivite and ºAdvaita Vedantist training. Have you read his biography? That could shed some light of how Venkata Raman became "Ramana" and could also shed some light on issues like 'effort' as Ramana was considered 'talented' and almost envied by yogis who despite years of practices hadn't succeeded in a control of mind-body that was effortless for Ramana, who nevertheless meditated for many years. º ºThere are strong recommendations for the Bhagavad Gita, in ºparticular, and the Ribhu Gita, as containing the whole of his ºviewpoint, especially in chapter 26. As I alternated reading RM's ºwritings, and Self-Enquiry, I noticed that the word for that was ºVicara - and that it was well-known and taught throughout the history ºof India, mostly in the same or similar terms. There are more recommendations for paths & methods then what could be tried out in a 1,000 lifetimes. º ºVirtually all the sages, gurus, teachers of Self-Enquiry indicated ºthat ultimately however "self" was discovered, the end result was ºidentification and merger with Brahman, the undefineable infinite. ºThe context of the practice of "vicara" is liberation from the cycle ºof births and deaths, indeed, the word commonly used is "samsara" º(the meaning has shifted a bit in Buddhism). This clearly is the ºcontext of RM and his followers, including Poonja and others. They ºare all equally clear about "getting to Self-Enquiry", but also ºindicate the why as well, getting beyond samsara. What is to merge with what is there is but Brahman? Apart from that, what can merge can separate again... Sankara makes "ignorance" the culprit, the veil, and Atman is identical with Brahman. º ºAs I have been doing Self-Enquiry for some time I have been having a ºvariety of experiences, including the loss of ego in a kind of energy ºexchange with everything, in which "self" becomes as Thich Nhat Hanh ºcalls it "interdependent being". I have had awareness of the sense ºof "universal allness", a touch of "Brahman" as it were. And ºinbetween there has been everything from "I am this body" to "I am ºlife" to "I am all my ancestors and all my progeny" to .... Kundalini experiences? º ºI am not holding onto any of it. I am taking RM's and Poonja's words ºto heart! literally and that is, º ºAsk "Who am I?" and let it reveal itself. A 24/7 practice? º ºIn the meantime the "sages" all come down to the same answer -- º"self is Brahman". Brahman is Consciousness itself, Pure ºConsciousness, and from that all creation and dissolution comes. ºAnd from that all is suffering, and it cycles over and over without ºend. Not an answer but conclusions. Experiential verification makes the words superfluous and shows their limitation as well, as the Tao that is spoken about isn't the Tao. The postulate of an uncreated creator is a nice example of contradiction in terms... The term Self-realization is an oxymoron, the Self doesn't realize itself and the notion of an "i" entity or "doer" is the major ignorance. º ºMy little piece of Self-Enquiry tends to find agreement. ºThe peace and serenity which comes with Self-Enquiry is not despair, ºyet the question remains: Why? "Why" type of questions always point to a similar question, ad infinitum. (why would a creator be uncreated?) º ºThere is change, there is movement and no state of consciousness and ºno condition remains unchanged even with matured Self-Enquiry. The nature of the manifest is change itself: there are no 2 things equal. º ºMany of the Advaita Vedantists including Ramana Maharshi, ºNisargadetta Maharaj, and Ramakrishna, died of throat cancer, the ºsame cancer I had surgery for! Not a good sign: disease could be called a fruit of ignorance. As to no surprise, there are statements that +knowledge+ regarding Self eradicates ignorance but not the products thereof like harmful habits. º ºNow that is a puzzlement for which quick, cute answers aren't the ºsolution. The keyword is 'conditioning' which is rather tenacious. The ability to learn, the willingness to experiment is another issue and the slightest sense of 'having arrived' will interfere with it in a negative way as does being put on a pedestal. Considering the body to be a bag of filth and treating it accordingly isn't helpful either. Hence there are paths where Self-realization is but the start and not a diploma to start teaching advaita: on those paths, what is termed "Self-realization" takes some 2..3 years for a serious practitioner. º ºIn the meantime, I continue with Self-Enquiry, and I will continue to ºask questions, and I will continue to appreciate love and those who ºshare their love with all of us in this group. Success with enquiry, and peace, Jan º ºJohn L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Dear jan and John: Thank you for this interchange. i have saved it to file as a reminder and an all around cool dialogue. I think it is an amazing storehouse of information in a small space. Love Bobby G. , "ecirada" <janb@a...> wrote: > On 7/18/02 at 10:10 PM johnrloganis wrote: > > ºHi All, > ºFirst of all, thank you for your responses. > º > ºSecondly, a little background, especially for several who took time > ºto take differing slants on the subject. > º > ºI, too, have walked through a near death experience. In January of > º2000 I had surgery for throat cancer and ended up in ICU for 18 days, > º15 of which I was on a Respirator with a trach tube in my throat so I > ºcould breathe. This was followed by radiation therapy for 35 > ºtreatments over a two month period. > > Did the NDE fit in with the stereotypes? > (Some NDE's don't and are more like 'hell' instead of 'heaven') > º > ºAbout six months prior I had had a "death" premonition which took > ºaway my fear of death completely: As I was looking out over the grass > ºand trees in a local park, everything started undulating into waves > ºof energy and I disappeared (as it were) into the vibration of all > ºand everything. This lasted about two minutes and I found myself back > ºto normal. I didn't know what to make of it at the time. > > Did the experience change your outlook on life > and with that, responsiveness? > º > ºNothing I had done prior stopped the cancer, no alternative > ºtherapies, no spiritual activities -- and afterward the only thing > ºwhich brought any kind of serenity was a sequence in order involving > º > ºabsolute metaphysics (Willim Samual) > ºTaoism > ºBuddhism > ºKrishnamurti > ºRamana Maharshi > > Impressive list! > º > ºAll pointed in the Advaita (Non-Dual) direction. During it all I did > ºdo self-awareness and nature/natural awareness. Along with the "Who > ºam I?" self-enquiry I have been reading the writings of Ramana > ºMaharshi and noted that he made reference to various writings for his > ºdisciples -- and that he did come out of a context of Shaivite and > ºAdvaita Vedantist training. > > Have you read his biography? > That could shed some light of how Venkata Raman > became "Ramana" and could also shed some light > on issues like 'effort' as Ramana was considered 'talented' > and almost envied by yogis who despite years of practices hadn't > succeeded in a control of mind-body that was effortless for Ramana, > who nevertheless meditated for many years. > º > ºThere are strong recommendations for the Bhagavad Gita, in > ºparticular, and the Ribhu Gita, as containing the whole of his > ºviewpoint, especially in chapter 26. As I alternated reading RM's > ºwritings, and Self-Enquiry, I noticed that the word for that was > ºVicara - and that it was well-known and taught throughout the history > ºof India, mostly in the same or similar terms. > > There are more recommendations for paths & methods then what could > be tried out in a 1,000 lifetimes. > º > ºVirtually all the sages, gurus, teachers of Self-Enquiry indicated > ºthat ultimately however "self" was discovered, the end result was > ºidentification and merger with Brahman, the undefineable infinite. > ºThe context of the practice of "vicara" is liberation from the cycle > ºof births and deaths, indeed, the word commonly used is "samsara" > º(the meaning has shifted a bit in Buddhism). This clearly is the > ºcontext of RM and his followers, including Poonja and others. They > ºare all equally clear about "getting to Self-Enquiry", but also > ºindicate the why as well, getting beyond samsara. > > What is to merge with what is there is but Brahman? > Apart from that, what can merge can separate again... > Sankara makes "ignorance" the culprit, the veil, > and Atman is identical with Brahman. > º > ºAs I have been doing Self-Enquiry for some time I have been having a > ºvariety of experiences, including the loss of ego in a kind of energy > ºexchange with everything, in which "self" becomes as Thich Nhat Hanh > ºcalls it "interdependent being". I have had awareness of the sense > ºof "universal allness", a touch of "Brahman" as it were. And > ºinbetween there has been everything from "I am this body" to "I am > ºlife" to "I am all my ancestors and all my progeny" to .... > > Kundalini experiences? > º > ºI am not holding onto any of it. I am taking RM's and Poonja's words > ºto heart! literally and that is, > º > ºAsk "Who am I?" and let it reveal itself. > > A 24/7 practice? > º > ºIn the meantime the "sages" all come down to the same answer -- > º"self is Brahman". Brahman is Consciousness itself, Pure > ºConsciousness, and from that all creation and dissolution comes. > ºAnd from that all is suffering, and it cycles over and over without > ºend. > > Not an answer but conclusions. Experiential verification makes > the words superfluous and shows their limitation as well, > as the Tao that is spoken about isn't the Tao. > The postulate of an uncreated creator is a nice example > of contradiction in terms... > The term Self-realization is an oxymoron, the Self doesn't realize itself > and the notion of an "i" entity or "doer" is the major ignorance. > > º > ºMy little piece of Self-Enquiry tends to find agreement. > ºThe peace and serenity which comes with Self-Enquiry is not despair, > ºyet the question remains: Why? > > "Why" type of questions always point to a similar question, ad infinitum. > (why would a creator be uncreated?) > º > ºThere is change, there is movement and no state of consciousness and > ºno condition remains unchanged even with matured Self-Enquiry. > > The nature of the manifest is change itself: there are no 2 things equal. > º > ºMany of the Advaita Vedantists including Ramana Maharshi, > ºNisargadetta Maharaj, and Ramakrishna, died of throat cancer, the > ºsame cancer I had surgery for! > > Not a good sign: disease could be called a fruit of ignorance. > As to no surprise, there are statements that +knowledge+ > regarding Self eradicates ignorance but not the products thereof > like harmful habits. > º > ºNow that is a puzzlement for which quick, cute answers aren't the > ºsolution. > > The keyword is 'conditioning' which is rather tenacious. > The ability to learn, the willingness to experiment is another > issue and the slightest sense of 'having arrived' will interfere with it > in a negative way as does being put on a pedestal. Considering the body > to be a bag of filth and treating it accordingly isn't helpful either. > Hence there are paths where Self-realization is but the start > and not a diploma to start teaching advaita: on those paths, what > is termed "Self-realization" takes some 2..3 years for a serious > practitioner. > > º > ºIn the meantime, I continue with Self-Enquiry, and I will continue to > ºask questions, and I will continue to appreciate love and those who > ºshare their love with all of us in this group. > > Success with enquiry, and peace, > Jan > º > ºJohn L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Hi Jan, My, my, many questions. I will answer inline with lots of [snips]. , "ecirada" <janb@a...> wrote: > Did the NDE fit in with the stereotypes? > (Some NDE's don't and are more like 'hell' instead of 'heaven') No. More of a premonition experience. > Did the experience change your outlook on life > and with that, responsiveness? It left me with many things no longer important; and the ones which cause reaction on my part are often surprising. But I am just dealing with them as they arise. No longer so concerned about their occurrence. > Have you read his biography? > That could shed some light of how Venkata Raman > became "Ramana" and could also shed some light > on issues like 'effort' as Ramana was considered 'talented' > and almost envied by yogis who despite years of practices hadn't > succeeded in a control of mind-body that was effortless for Ramana, > who nevertheless meditated for many years. Yes. > º > ºThere are strong recommendations for the Bhagavad Gita, in > ºparticular, and the Ribhu Gita, as containing the whole of his > ºviewpoint, especially in chapter 26. As I alternated reading RM's > ºwritings, and Self-Enquiry, I noticed that the word for that was > ºVicara - and that it was well-known and taught throughout the history > ºof India, mostly in the same or similar terms. > > There are more recommendations for paths & methods then what could > be tried out in a 1,000 lifetimes. Agreed. > Kundalini experiences? Yes, developing to maturity in the 70s and early 80s, pretty stable since. Many of the siddhis, but no big deal, just part of the movement. > ºI am not holding onto any of it. I am taking RM's and Poonja's words to heart! literally and that is, Ask "Who am I?" and let it reveal itself. > A 24/7 practice? Poonja says that one only needs to let go for 1 second. But then he is not around where I am. At least not in the physical. My practice is Sahaja Yoga, the Yoga of the Natural Way. No labor, no working, just doing it, and watching what develops. > ºIn the meantime the "sages" all come down to the same answer -- > º"self is Brahman". Brahman is Consciousness itself, Pure > ºConsciousness, and from that all creation and dissolution comes. > ºAnd from that all is suffering, and it cycles over and over without > ºend. > > Not an answer but conclusions. Agreed. Nicely put. > Experiential verification makes > the words superfluous and shows their limitation as well, > as the Tao that is spoken about isn't the Tao. > The postulate of an uncreated creator is a nice example > of contradiction in terms... > The term Self-realization is an oxymoron, the Self doesn't realize itself > and the notion of an "i" entity or "doer" is the major ignorance. Yes, indeed. > ºMany of the Advaita Vedantists including Ramana Maharshi, > ºNisargadetta Maharaj, and Ramakrishna, died of throat cancer, the > ºsame cancer I had surgery for! > > Not a good sign: disease could be called a fruit of ignorance. > As to no surprise, there are statements that +knowledge+ > regarding Self eradicates ignorance but not the products thereof > like harmful habits. Nisargadetta Maharaj smoked and sold Beedies, a very strong hemp-like cigarette. Enough said. My theory is that throat cancer is often caused in India by the ingesting of too much smoke from the heavy incense. My own cancer, the doctors postulated, came from my parents smoking (3-4 packs a day) especially when I had my tonsils out. The cancer was exactly in the area on the left side where the tonsils had been removed! My own brief bouts with smoking apparently reinforced it. > º > ºNow that is a puzzlement for which quick, cute answers aren't the > ºsolution. > > The keyword is 'conditioning' which is rather tenacious. > The ability to learn, the willingness to experiment is another > issue and the slightest sense of 'having arrived' will interfere with it > in a negative way as does being put on a pedestal. Considering the body > to be a bag of filth and treating it accordingly isn't helpful either. > Hence there are paths where Self-realization is but the start > and not a diploma to start teaching advaita: on those paths, what > is termed "Self-realization" takes some 2..3 years for a serious > practitioner. Agreed. Even the Buddha spent weeks after his "awakening" to develop "upaya" the skillful means to communicate his realizations to others and clearly spent the next 40 years working on just that area. > Success with enquiry, and peace, > Jan Thank you and you also, John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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