Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi John, Hi John :-) this to me is about finding nirvana in samsara & samsara in nirvana (perhaps:-) I studied on a Vedic path. Our teacher encouraged, that if we found ourselves in the transcendent, to alternate it with activity. And if we found ourselves in activity, to come back to the transcendent. And in time, we can see that this how life cycles naturally anyway .. but that usually people just see a relative view. > I have also read pretty well the same or similar material as you have but I > still say, although it is good that I read it all, in the long run it was > not the reading and acquired knowledge that helped me... It was the letting > go of that requisite reading that cleared me... the getting off the path... I remember when a dear friend said to me that it was time to put away the books. We can be so committed to perfection .. that we miss the present right here. And perhaps you know that imperfection is ok .. Who would say it is not? Lately I myself have taken to studying middle way Buddhist writings by Dogen. Perhaps this ditty might speak to you .. "When buddhas are truly buddhas, they do not necessarily notice that they are buddhas. However, they are actualized buddhas, who go on actualizing Buddha." Dogen There was another one that particularly helped me .. "A fish swims in the ocean, & no matter how far it swims there is no end to the water. A bird flies in the sky, & no matter how far it flies there is no end to the air. However the fish & the air have never left their elements .. each of them totally experiences its realm. If the bird leaves the air it will die at once. If the fish leaves the water it will die at once. Know that water is life & air is life. The bird is life & the fish is life. Life must be the bird & life must be the fish." Zen master Dogen Blessings, Colette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Hi Colette, Dogen said, "It isn't that firewood is burned and becomes ash. There is wood, there is burning, there is ash." This is also similar to what you posted about each phenomenon being in the place of that phenomenon, and is similar to what you said about the fish and bird, each in their place. There is wood, there is burning, there is ash. No causal links are provided, nor necessary. Time isn't a continuity in which a substance goes through different states, nor a being goes through a process by which it becomes something else. The fish doesn't need to be placed in the sky, the wood doesn't become something else, like ash. The implications to this are tremendous. Said positively, beginningless and endless truth is here, as phenomena simply are as they are. Said in terms of negation, which leave only "what is": There is no knowledge to be gained. There is no state to attain. There is no quality to be added. There is no explanation for anything which is to be offered, or which is needed. The self which maintains itself by explaining things, isn't there, when no explanation is involved. Inexplicabley, Dan , "pearlwhiterainbow" <white_rainbow@h...> wrote: > , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > > > Hi John, > > Hi John :-) this to me is about finding nirvana in samsara & samsara > in nirvana (perhaps:-) > > I studied on a Vedic path. Our teacher encouraged, that if we found > ourselves in the transcendent, to alternate it with activity. And if > we found ourselves in activity, to come back to the transcendent. And > in time, we can see that this how life cycles naturally anyway .. but > that usually people just see a relative view. > > > > I have also read pretty well the same or similar material as you > have but I > > still say, although it is good that I read it all, in the long run > it was > > not the reading and acquired knowledge that helped me... It was the > letting > > go of that requisite reading that cleared me... the getting off the > path... > > I remember when a dear friend said to me that it was time to put away > the books. We can be so committed to perfection .. that we miss the > present right here. And perhaps you know that imperfection is ok .. > Who would say it is not? > > > Lately I myself have taken to studying middle way Buddhist writings > by Dogen. Perhaps this ditty might speak to you .. > > "When buddhas are truly buddhas, they do not > necessarily notice that they are buddhas. However, they are > actualized buddhas, who go on actualizing Buddha." > > Dogen > > There was another one that particularly helped me .. > > "A fish swims in the ocean, & no matter how far it swims there is no > end to the water. > > A bird flies in the sky, & no matter how far it flies there is no end > to the air. > > However the fish & the air have never left their elements .. each of > them totally experiences its realm. > > If the bird leaves the air it will die at once. > If the fish leaves the water it will die at once. > Know that water is life & air is life. > > The bird is life & the fish is life. Life must be the bird & life > must be the fish." > > Zen master Dogen > > Blessings, > > Colette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 In a message dated 07/19/2002 10:32:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dan330033 writes: << Playing the straightman once again, Dan >> it takes two points to make a straight line....in connecting the dots.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > Hi Colette, > > Dogen said, > "It isn't that firewood is burned and becomes ash. > There is wood, there is burning, there is ash." > > This is also similar to what you posted about each phenomenon > being in the place of that phenomenon, and is similar > to what you said about the fish and bird, each in their > place. > > There is wood, there is burning, there is ash. Yes, there's Source & there's .. other stuff! I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 , "pearlwhiterainbow" <white_rainbow@h...> wrote: > , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > > > Dogen said, > > "It isn't that firewood is burned and becomes ash. > > There is wood, there is burning, there is ash." > > > > This is also similar to what you posted about each phenomenon > > being in the place of that phenomenon, and is similar > > to what you said about the fish and bird, each in their > > place. > > > > There is wood, there is burning, there is ash. > > Yes, there's Source & there's .. other stuff! > > I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Hello my Dear, Darling Col, What "other stuff" other than 'Source?' Do you refer to it as Sri Ramana did, that when Self Alone is seen, then reality and maya are One? Mutuality of One! Phenomenality of One! Mutlipicity of One, eh? Danji sure says everything with nothing being said. > > Col LoveAlways, Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 , "pearlwhiterainbow" <white_rainbow@h...> wrote: > , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > > > Dogen said, > > "It isn't that firewood is burned and becomes ash. > > There is wood, there is burning, there is ash." > > > > This is also similar to what you posted about each phenomenon > > being in the place of that phenomenon, and is similar > > to what you said about the fish and bird, each in their > > place. > > > > There is wood, there is burning, there is ash. > > Yes, there's Source & there's .. other stuff! > > I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Yes. And if they are not mutually exclusive, then they are not Source and other stuff. This is the pointing that Dogen gives, each phenomenon is that phenomenon in its place, as it is. There isn't movement from phenomenon to Source and back to phenomomenon. That's not what is happening. There isn't anyone who could move from one to the other, so no one and another. Dan > > Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 > Do you refer to it as Sri Ramana did, that when Self Alone is seen, > then reality and maya are One? Mutuality of One! Phenomenality of One! > Mutlipicity of One, eh? Danji sure says everything with nothing being > said. > > > > Col > > LoveAlways, > > Mazie Hi Mazie -- Sure -- and, of course, talking about One Alone has the drawback of being meaningless. Which is okay as a way to encourage dropping of previous meanings about multiple phenomena one thought had some kind of meaning. But still, it leaves you with this idea of Self as if that were saying something. Clearly, there is communication happening. But no one knows communication of what. One what? What kind of one that has no outside or inside? What is that? Self? What Self? Where is it located, how is it experienced, as what, by whom? So -- Dogen talks about firewood and ash and birds. And certainly -- we talk all day without anything being said. And we seem to be having fun in the process, so here's to birds that fly in the sky, and fish that swim in the sea. And Mazies and Cols and Dans who post to each other in cyberspace, flying electrons in phone lines ... -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > Do you refer to it as Sri Ramana did, that when Self Alone is seen, > > then reality and maya are One? Mutuality of One! Phenomenality of > One! > > Mutlipicity of One, eh? Danji sure says everything with nothing > being > > said. > > > > > > Col > > > > LoveAlways, > > > > Mazie > > Hi Mazie -- > > Sure -- and, of course, talking about One Alone > has the drawback of being meaningless. > > Which is okay as a way to encourage dropping > of previous meanings about multiple > phenomena one thought had some kind of > meaning. > > But still, it leaves you with this idea of > Self as if that were saying something. > > Clearly, there is communication happening. > > But no one knows communication of what. > > One what? > > What kind of one that has no outside or inside? > > What is that? > > Self? > > What Self? > > Where is it located, how is it experienced, > as what, by whom? > > So -- Dogen talks about firewood and ash > and birds. > > And certainly -- we talk all day without anything being > said. > > And we seem to be having fun in the process, > so here's to birds that fly in the sky, > and fish that swim in the sea. > > And Mazies and Cols and Dans who post to > each other in cyberspace, flying > electrons in phone lines ... Dearest Danji, Oh. Sooooo, okaaaay. Regardless my Darling, you still crack me up every day in some measure or another. Keep it coming, i really am listening, even though there is no listener, eh? Chortling along in this Beauty of no One. It's such a beautiful day here in this place, this placeless place i seem to think i'm in. C'mon Dan, give some more sweet nothings. Give it up again. Tcha! > > -- Dan LoveAlways, Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Hi Mazie -- Your response doesn't seem to be about what I've written, although maybe it is and I'm missing the connection. Feel free to let me know what it is you heard while you were listening, because I admit I'm clueless. In the meantime, I hope your chortling and cracking up are enjoyable experiences for you. Not sure how it connects with what I wrote, but that's okay :-) Playing the straightman once again, Dan > Dearest Danji, > > Oh. Sooooo, okaaaay. Regardless my Darling, you still crack me up > every day in some measure or another. Keep it coming, i really am > listening, even though there is no listener, eh? Chortling along in > this Beauty of no One. It's such a beautiful day here in this place, > this placeless place i seem to think i'm in. C'mon Dan, give some > more sweet nothings. Give it up again. Tcha! > > > > -- Dan > > LoveAlways, > > Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Colette wrote: > > Yes, there's Source & there's .. other stuff! > > I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Mazie responded: > What "other stuff" other than 'Source?' Of course the "other stuff" is what is brought forth from and by the source... But, Oooh, there is more that comes after "the source and its production" and which AT ONCE comes before the "source and its production". Aaah.... wish I would have more time now to describe it... unending unbeginning There are such wonderful secrets to be shared Sit by me my beloveds and it will show Come sit by me I'll come and sit by you abide abide abide in each other .... .... .... Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release 7/10/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > Hi Mazie -- > Your response doesn't seem to be about what I've written, although maybe it is and I'm missing the connection. Just goes to show how i don't really have a clue about anything Danji! i just scatter about like leaves, some cling, some keep right on flying all about. They don't even know they're leaves, right? > Feel free to let me know what it is you heard while you were listening, because I admit I'm clueless. Clueless, me too, and i heard something that was never said, apparently. i wish i could recall just what i was hearing, but, don't know. It must've sounded right when i did hear it though! Nevermind me Dan, i seem to like the sound of my own words, regardless of them making any sense. Except to me, and maybe Robert. > In the meantime, I hope your chortling and cracking up are enjoyable experiences for you. Not sure how it connects with what I wrote, but that's okay :-) Very enjoyable my Dearest. Oh Danji! Of course it all connects with what you wrote, only i can't say how. At least not quite now. If not now, when then? Just this my Dear One, you always make me smile, and especially when you're playing around and saying "Awwww, shucks, try to be serious!" > Playing the straightman once again, Playing the clown again, LoveAlways, Mazie > Dan > > > > > Dearest Danji, > > > > Oh. Sooooo, okaaaay. Regardless my Darling, you still crack me up > > every day in some measure or another. Keep it coming, i really am > > listening, even though there is no listener, eh? Chortling along in > > this Beauty of no One. It's such a beautiful day here in this place, > > this placeless place i seem to think i'm in. C'mon Dan, give some > > more sweet nothings. Give it up again. Tcha! > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > LoveAlways, > > > > Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Hi Mazie -- Ah, now I see! Thanks for making it clear to me. It was worth being patient, now, I see. Oh, did I say that already? Oh well. Dots connected, happy man, Dan , "mazie_l" <sraddha54@h...> wrote: > , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > Hi Mazie -- > > > Your response doesn't seem to be > about what I've written, although > maybe it is and I'm missing the connection. > > > Just goes to show how i don't really have a clue about anything > Danji! i just scatter about like leaves, some cling, some keep right > on flying all about. They don't even know they're leaves, right? > > > > Feel free to let me know what it is you > heard while you were listening, because > I admit I'm clueless. > > > Clueless, me too, and i heard something that was never said, > apparently. i wish i could recall just what i was hearing, but, don't > know. It must've sounded right when i did hear it though! Nevermind > me Dan, i seem to like the sound of my own words, regardless of them > making any sense. Except to me, and maybe Robert. > > > > In the meantime, I hope your chortling > and cracking up are enjoyable experiences > for you. Not sure how it connects with > what I wrote, but that's okay :-) > > > Very enjoyable my Dearest. Oh Danji! Of course it all connects with > what you wrote, only i can't say how. At least not quite now. If not > now, when then? Just this my Dear One, you always make me smile, and > especially when you're playing around and saying "Awwww, shucks, try > to be serious!" > > > > Playing the straightman once again, > > Playing the clown again, > > LoveAlways, > > Mazie > > Dan > > > > > > > > > Dearest Danji, > > > > > > Oh. Sooooo, okaaaay. Regardless my Darling, you still crack me up > > > every day in some measure or another. Keep it coming, i really am > > > listening, even though there is no listener, eh? Chortling along > in > > > this Beauty of no One. It's such a beautiful day here in this > place, > > > this placeless place i seem to think i'm in. C'mon Dan, give some > > > more sweet nothings. Give it up again. Tcha! > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > LoveAlways, > > > > > > Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Hi Collete, > I studied on a Vedic path. Our teacher encouraged, that if we found ourselves in the transcendent, to alternate it with activity. And if we found ourselves in activity, to come back to the transcendent. And in time, we can see that this how life cycles naturally anyway .. but that usually people just see a relative view. < I like it. I don't know why but this paragraph brought up giggles. I think this is one of those jokes which Poonja talks about. Dogen had a way with words and concepts didn't he? I think that many Buddhists still don't understand what he was talking about. Namaste, John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 , "johnrloganis" <johnrloganis> wrote: > Hi Collete, > > > I studied on a Vedic path. Our teacher encouraged, that if we found > ourselves in the transcendent, to alternate it with activity. And if > we found ourselves in activity, to come back to the transcendent. And > in time, we can see that this how life cycles naturally anyway .. but > that usually people just see a relative view. < > > I like it. > I don't know why but this paragraph brought up giggles. > I think this is one of those jokes which Poonja talks about. > > Dogen had a way with words and concepts didn't he? > I think that many Buddhists still don't understand what he was > talking about. Yeah .. He seems to me to be saying, you are it, & it is you who are already here, as you are. This movement away from needn't be. Movement & being can be both be already here :-) Colette > > Namaste, > John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Colette wrote: > > > Yes, there's Source & there's .. other stuff! > > > I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. > > Mazie responded: > > What "other stuff" other than 'Source?' > > Of course the "other stuff" is what is brought forth from and by the > source... > > But, Oooh, there is more that comes after "the source and its production" > and which AT ONCE comes before the "source and its production". After & before, & neither in between? You be talkin' parabrahman Wim? True love? Just wonderin' Col > > Aaah.... wish I would have more time now to describe it... > > unending unbeginning > > There are such wonderful secrets to be shared > > Sit by me my beloveds and it will show > > Come sit by me > > I'll come and sit by you > > abide > > abide > > abide in each other > > ... > ... > ... > > Wim > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release 7/10/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Dear Colette, You asked: > You be talkin' parabrahman Wim? > True love? > Just wonderin' I will get to it sometime... that means describing it... It is not so special, we can see plants do it all the time, especially when they flower...and we humans do it too... "yeah true love... something like that..." I'm so happy with your list Colette... there is something so fresh and new here... Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release 7/10/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Dear Colette, > > You asked: > > You be talkin' parabrahman Wim? > > True love? > > Just wonderin' > > I will get to it sometime... that means describing it... It is not so > special, we can see plants do it all the time, especially when they > flower...and we humans do it too... "yeah true love... something like > that..." > I'm so happy with your list Colette... there is something so fresh and new > here... You make a flower smile when you speak like that Wim. Col > > Wim > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release 7/10/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 Nice way of putting it, Col! :-) Dan > Yeah .. > > He seems to me to be saying, you are it, & it is you who are already > here, as you are. > > This movement away from needn't be. > > Movement & being can be both be already here > > :-) > > Colette > > > > > Namaste, > > John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2002 Report Share Posted July 21, 2002 Hi, There is a Zen teacher who wrote a book entitled, "FLOWERS DO NOT TALK". He was making a point but he just doesn't really know flowers. And smiling flowers? Hmmmmmmmm....sounds strange to me :-D. John L. , "pearlwhiterainbow" <white_rainbow@h...> wrote: > , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > > Dear Colette, > > > > You asked: > > > You be talkin' parabrahman Wim? > > > True love? > > > Just wonderin' > > > > I will get to it sometime... that means describing it... It is not > so > > special, we can see plants do it all the time, especially when they > > flower...and we humans do it too... "yeah true love... something > like > > that..." > > I'm so happy with your list Colette... there is something so fresh > and new > > here... > > You make a flower smile when you speak like that Wim. > > Col > > > > > Wim > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release 7/10/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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