Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 I know of Phil's work and respect his earnest intent here, but I have to chuckle at the central presumption: that somehow "easterners" get the whole thing better than "westerners." This is rather silly -- it's not as if "the East," which I suppose could mean anywhere from Anatolia all the way east to Honshu, is any more awash in realized beings than "the West," which may or may not include everywhere from the Balkans all the way west to Oahu! I'm quite sure Phil's counterpart in "the East" could easily make up list every bit as long about the typical "easterner" errors! On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 03:42:30 -0000 "satkartar7" <mi_nok writes: > Phil Servedio: The most common Errors made by Westerners on the > Spiritual Path. > > Intermediate Mistakes > > Clinging to a particular goal Westerners > in particular, and western men even more > so, have been trained from early on to > set goals and achieve them. When one takes > up spirituality this mindset is > transferred into the spiritual dimension, > and makes for a neurotic yogi, due to the > self-defeating nature of goal orientation > in spirituality. This only serves to harden and solidify the > self-notion and a subject-object point of view. Spiritual hubris > Though this can happen at any stage, > arrogance really begins to manifest when > one begins to think that they've got the > answer, or is now on top of it, suffused > with new energy, experience and insight. > > Hubris is often a compensatory mechanism > for low spiritual self-esteem. Hubris for > a beginner: arrogance due to clinging to > a concept or an idea often picked up in > a book or teaching. The speaks to the > folly of knowledge based undertanding - > one such example is if one reads that > "It's all perfect from the start" as in > the Dzogchen or Taoist tradition, and assumes that s/he has "got > it", and > starts preaching to friends. > > Hubris for the intermediate: arrogance > due to the identification with experience > and insight, trying to own wisdom as an > ego*. Hubris for the advanced: arrogance > due to the identification with a > realization that is not complete, but is > mistaken to be complete. Wanting to take > whatever level of realization that has > occurred and cash in in some way for the > purposes of ego gratification, monetary gain, etc. Castenada's Don > Juan said that > one of the obstacle to a man ok knowledge > is 'clarity'. Or identification with realization as referred to by > "the > stink of Zen". > > Confusing intellectual understanding that > one is aware with wisdom The mere intellectual knowledge that > 'awareness is > aware of awareness' only cuts so deep, > and clinging to that concept or insight > is an obstruction to a real spiritual breakthrough. Knowledge is not > the > Witness nor is it Rigpa. Confusing > attention with Non-dual Awareness This is > a big one, based on a misunderstanding > of what is expressed in many non-dual traditions. While non-dual > awareness and ordinary awareness are not different, > the functioning of both are worlds apart. > > Ordinary awareness is bound to the view > and misunderstanding of a substantive > subject viewing external reality, whereas > the arrival of non-dual awareness signals > the end of this misunderstanding, spontaneously and effortless > abides in itself, as itself even in the midst of objective > appearances. Confusing a quiet > mind with Witness Consciousness or Rigpa > > This is the classic mistake of assuming shamatha alone will bring > about > realization and liberation without the radical insight of vipassana. > > > People mistake the goal as being a quiet mind, whereas a mind free > of discursive thoughts is only the context from which radical > insight can occur within a > gradual process. For sudden schools the notion of a quiet mind is > bypassed. But nevertheless, goal orientation for a quiet > mind is itself more generation of mind, > it has to be let go of. Awareness has to > become self-knowing and self-aware from > the deepest point of being and unbound > at source point (the causal body). > > The "I" must no longer exclusively be > assumed to exist as a 'point' or to be locatable; self-imputation > has to be uprooted. Believing wisdom is seated in knowledge Having > gained some experiences > and insight through engagement in the spiritual process, there > still may lurk > an underlying belief that innate wisdom > is borne of acquiring knowledge. This is > a result of the misunderstanding that > wisdom is not inherent but must be sought. > > Relying upon external source is simply > being a parrot of someone else's understanding. The pundit error. > > Believing realization is seated in > experience Gaining experience over time, > and noticing that those experiences are > characterized by joy, bliss or love, one > extrapolates that realization is some > kind of supreme experience, not > understanding that the whole imputation > of a separate someone or entity having an > experience has to be dismantled. > > Attachment to bliss, joy and ascendancy > Life is full of such difficulties and suffering so much of the time, > that it > can't be helped that when experiences of > bliss or joy occur, or other forms of > relief from the karmic burden, people will > spend enormous amounts of energy trying > to get back to that experience from > memory and if this is actually > accomplished, to try to make it permanent. > > Insight into the nature of clinging has > to be discovered to see that this > attachment is solidifying elements of existence that have no > fundamental > substance. Another stategy regarding bliss > is wanting to get out of here, not taking > responsibility for being an adult in an adult world, and embodying > the puer > aeternus Peter Pan archetype that wants > to use the spiritual to fly away from > painful or ordinary life experience. > > > This is another kind of throwback into wombness, or a great > misunderstanding regarding spirituality: that somehow we > must become child-like in all ways, a > classic "pre-trans" fallacy as > elucidated by Ken Wilber. > > Summarily this is just another form of avoidance and aversion. > Mistaking > analytical mind for non-dual awareness > As one gains insight over time, there > still may be an underlying assumption that > one's capacity for analysis and deconstruction be either identical > to > or will lead to non-dual awareness. > > There is still an extant clinging to > mental forms which must be transcended. Believing that practice will > result in enlightenment in a linear cause and > effect fashion When one discovers a > teacher, teaching or tradition that seems > to bear some fruit, one may throw him or > herself into the associated practice > hoping that it will eventually produce an enlightened happy self, > sort of like a spiritual assembly line. This kind of "formula > consciousness" is a kind of orientation that speaks of subtle > avoidance. > > One may hope to get through the hard > parts by doing spiritual techniques that > will hopefully avoid having to look too closely at oneself or avoid > any form of unpleasantness. > > The reliance upon a formula for > realization is at the root a > misunderstanding about the spiritual > process and realization itself, and > another form of subtle avoidance. > > Believing that practice cannot result > in or, in fact, prevents realization > This is a classic error that is also very > popular. After reading about or understanding to some degree that > realization cannot be caused, one jumps > to the conclusion that any attempts at spiritual practice are > utterly useless or > harmful since realization is beyond > cause and effect. This is a one-sided argument based upon a severe > lack of understanding regarding spiritual process. > > While realization is not caused by any > means, there is much practice needed > for most people to lay a foundation in > order for that realization to take fruit. > > As someone said, "realization is an accident, meditation makes you > accident prone". This is also a "sudden school" > point of view that people latch onto, thinking that they have > understood > something profound, all the while using > their new found philosophy as means for > the avoidance of vulnerability and commitment to spiritual growth, > as well > as avoiding the potential difficulties > that may occur in the midst of a life of > practice. > > Advanced Mistakes (When I get advanced > I'll certainly add more!) Mistaking the > void state for the nature of self, mind, > existence Profound experiences may occur > when, by the ripening of the fruit of > the spritual process, or just by blind > dumb luck. One of these kinds of > experiences is when all objective > phenomena disappears, and one lands in > a void state, de-void of all content, > gross or subtle. While this is wonderful, > it is only a temporary state of an > extreme, and one may confuse various > void experiences for the nature of mind. > > There is at the very least a lack of resolution with objective > phenomena which > will still be an obstruction from > abiding in the nature of all. I've got > it: owning realization The nature of > the spiritual process is that there are degrees and levels of > realization, and > it appears, in my opinion, that the difference of degree is a > function of > the level of karmic purification that > an individual has undergone. The level > or type of realization is often based > upon the kinds of transmissions that a > person has been subject to in his or her search. And the ego > mechanism may not be > totally purified when realization > occurs; otherwise only Buddhas would be realizers, having undergone > complete purification. > > So the process of identification, a > function of ego may be intact, and > forgetting the basic understanding that > there is no partcular one whom can be realized, one may identify > with the transformation that a realization > engenders. > > This becomes yet another obstruction > and will result in a loss of that realization. I've lost it When > the > "I've got it" sets in, in due time the > opposite of that will occur, as > everything in the phenomenal realm calls > in its opposite. Even if some profound realization has occurred, if > one is not rooted in a clear understanding and > view, the unenlightened view that there > is a substantive self that can take ownership will inevitably > appear. > > Believing that disassocation of conscisousness from objects is full > realization Part of the process of realization is to recognize the > inherency > of consciousness, and this may occur in stages. At one point, some > may become > adept at entering great empty spaces > with no content or other seemingly > profound experiences, and may assume > that a profound realization has occured. > > Fixating upon the absolute to the > exclusion of the relative When someone > has undergone a breakthrough in > consciousness and can naturally > re-cognize the absolute nature of self > and of all existence, a tendency can > arise to attempt to identify solely > with the absolute to the exclusion of > the relative. But despite the most > profound realization, someone has to pay > the rent and pay the tax man. > > Relative reality cannot be so easily dismissed except perhaps by the > most > adept realizers. Assuming any perception, however subtle (even > non-perceptions) are > "it" The Nirvana ("Nibbana"** ) Sutra > and The Shurangama Sutra of Gautama > Buddha are, IMO, glorious and superb expositions of mistakes made by > more > advanced practitioners on the spiritual > path regarding subtle perceptions and mistaking extremely profound > experiences > and realizations for full enlightenment. > The Shurangama Sutra lists 50 ways in > which such an error can be made. > > from: http://www.heartspace.org > ~ love k ~ > http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Well put Sri Bruceji. The east-west dichotomy has always struck me as contrived and superficial. It is often used as a marketing gimmic by novices for ideas that can't stand on their own. Sorry for hurting any feelings! :-). Love to all Harsha , Bruce Morgen <editor@j...> wrote: > > I know of Phil's work and > respect his earnest intent > here, but I have to chuckle > at the central presumption: > that somehow "easterners" > get the whole thing better > than "westerners." This is > rather silly -- it's not as > if "the East," which I > suppose could mean anywhere > from Anatolia all the way > east to Honshu, is any more > awash in realized beings > than "the West," which may > or may not include > everywhere from the Balkans > all the way west to Oahu! > > I'm quite sure Phil's > counterpart in "the East" > could easily make up list > every bit as long about the > typical "easterner" errors! > > On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 03:42:30 -0000 "satkartar7" <mi_nok> > writes: > > Phil Servedio: The most common Errors made by Westerners on the > > Spiritual Path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Ignoring the "westerners" bit, it's a pretty good list. andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 , andrew macnab <a.macnab@n...> wrote: > Ignoring the "westerners" bit, > it's a pretty good list. > > andrew ********************* It might very well be Andrew. I did not read it. Reading other people's lists doesn't appeal to me. That's just me. Glad you liked it though. Two lists that I have found useful and actively used at different times are: 1. Grocery list (very frequent) 2. Things to do list (sometimes when I am behind on getting a haircut or calling the plumber). Other than that, I find the whole idea of lists and rules for this and that and lengthy explanations of the mistakes people make and how this will all be revealed through some wise person to be fairly worthless. That's just me though. I am sure lists work for some people. I am not a list person. Down with the lists! Long live the Tao! Hey down with the Tao and the lists both! Up Up and Away! Look up in the sky. Is it a bird, plane......... It's Superman! Is that a list he is carrying in his shorts of all the bad guys? :-). OK. I am funnier than Jerry Katz any day of the week. Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 harshaimtm wrote: > > , andrew macnab <a.macnab@n...> wrote: > > Ignoring the "westerners" bit, > > it's a pretty good list. > > > > andrew > ********************* > It might very well be Andrew. I did not read it. Reading other > people's lists doesn't appeal to me. That's just me. Glad you liked > it though. I found it a good list because I recognised traits I am or have been prone to. Liking what you recognise is probably another common mistake. I guess that's how the author came up with it, listing his own foibles, then letting people read it and if they said yeah I do that or I remember when I was like that, calling it a common mistake. Whether really a mistake or just a step is another question. A bunch of buddhist sutras are lists. So's the phone book, have you ever read it for fun? I know it's not nice to laugh at people's names but there's hours of entertainment there. Err... how bout "Beeswanger"? andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 I found it to be a good list because the nonerrors are hidden behind the errors. I think the author should have entitled the piece: "Hidden Tips to Success" But then, that would have been 'so western'. <g> Andrew, good point about 'mistake' or 'step'. Nina , andrew macnab <a.macnab@n...> wrote: > harshaimtm wrote: > > > > , andrew macnab <a.macnab@n...> wrote: > > > Ignoring the "westerners" bit, > > > it's a pretty good list. > > > > > > andrew > > ********************* > > It might very well be Andrew. I did not read it. Reading other > > people's lists doesn't appeal to me. That's just me. Glad you liked > > it though. > > I found it a good list because I recognised traits I am or have been prone to. Liking > what you recognise is probably another common mistake. I guess that's how the author > came up with it, listing his own foibles, then letting people read it and if they said > yeah I do that or I remember when I was like that, calling it a common mistake. > Whether really a mistake or just a step is another question. A bunch of buddhist > sutras are lists. So's the phone book, have you ever read it for fun? I know it's not > nice to laugh at people's names but there's hours of entertainment there. Err... how > bout "Beeswanger"? > > > andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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