Tolle Interview

[Guest guest]

The Power of Now

AN INTERVIEW WITH

ECKHART TOLLE

by MICHAEL BERTRAND

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Q. What people reading this might be most interested in is what is

the teaching that you describe in the book and in your talks?

 

The essence, the very foundation, of the teaching is that a

different state of consciousness is possible for humans. The state of

consciousness that is considered normal and that has been running

human history for thousands of years is not the only possible state

of consciousness. It's also not the most advanced state possible for

humans.

It's nothing new. All the great teachings and teachers have

pointed to the fact, since the normal state of consciousness is a

state that is extremely deficient, a state that in the ancient

teachings has been called suffering. The Buddha called it suffering,

Jesus called it a state of sin and illusion, and the Hindus call it a

state of illusion.

So, all ancient teachings agree that the normal human state of

consciousness is, as I call it, a state of insanity. Anybody can

verify this for themselves if they look at human history, 90 percent

of which—really, if you look at it objectively—would be called the

history of collective insanity, with the enormous amount of suffering

inflicted by humans on other humans and on themselves and other

species.

The second part of the teaching is that it's possible to enter

that state now. Not only is it possible to enter it now, but the only

time when you can enter that state of consciousness is in the Now;

not needing the future in order to arrive at a projected state of

consciousness, but realizing that new state of consciousness one that

is free of time.

The main characteristic of the old state of consciousness is that

it is dominated by past and future, in other words by time. If you

observe the workings of your mind you will see that you're almost

never in the present moment. The mind is always engaged in projecting

a future, thinking about the future, trying to get to the future or

reviving the past.

 

All ancient teachings agree that the normal human state of

consciousness is, as I call it, a state of insanity.

 

The old state of consciousness is also a state of identification

with thought processes. Now what does that mean? To be identified

means to derive your sense of self, of who you are from thought

movements, to be completely trapped in the mental noise, to have your

identity in the mental noise.

Then your whole sense of self is derived from thought, which means

an image forms in the head of "who I am," of "that's me," and that

image is always ill at ease, even in the people who look very

confident. The self image of the Little Me as I call it, a mind-made

sense of self or ego, is always ill at ease. This sense of self needs

conflict in order to feel that it exists. It cannot tolerate a

prolonged period of non-conflict because the Little Me depends for

its continuous existence on the feeling of separateness.

It defines itself as "me" and "other," which is not me. So, the

more I can be in conflict with the not me the stronger my—ultimately

illusory—sense of self becomes. The ego tells you continuously that

it wants to get out of conflict. It's looking for happiness, but the

ego is constructed in such a way that the state of happiness it says

it looks for it cannot afford to find when its very survival depends

on conflict.

 

Q. So one could come right to the edge of, say, moving into a

selfless, non-egoic state and then pull back. You could get very far

and then the ego just marshals all its forces. How does one get

through that?

 

First of all, it's true that you can get to the edge and then pull

back because peace is too threatening for the mind-made ego self. The

first thing is to realize that unhappiness, dissatisfaction and

discontent always seem to be caused by external factors but that's an

illusion. They are built into the very structure of the egoic mind

and that is the essence of the old consciousness.

It is an amazing realization that no matter where you go those

structures will go with you. You could go into the most paradisiacal

island or to a planet that is heaven, but you would still be carrying

with you the structures of the egoic mind and it will transform

heaven into hell. It's an enormous step forward to realize for

oneself that all the unhappiness, discontent and conflict in most

people's lives originate within the structures of our minds rather

than being externally caused.

When you see very clearly what the origin of the state of non-

freedom is, that is the beginning of liberation. It's actually

already the beginning of the new state of consciousness. One could

say that as soon as you begin to be able to witness the workings of

your mind instead of being totally identified with them (and I

include emotions in that because they are the reflections in the body

of what the mind is doing), this is already the arising of the new

state of consciousness.

Then you watch how discontent arises, how unhappiness arises and

then you look more deeply and you see the very root cause: It denies

or resists or fights against the present moment. The very root cause

which keeps the structures of unhappiness going is the refusal to

accept life totally and say "yes" to this moment.

The moment you say yes to what is, you're no longer resisting

life, because life is always now. The non-acceptance of what is lies

at the basis of the egoic sense of self because it grows stronger

through fighting and resisting and saying, "No, no, no." Then the

illusory sense of who I am get stronger. So, the illusion gets

stronger, the ego gets stronger, the suffering gets stronger. They

all go together. The ego loves that.

So, it's not surprising that if you look at human history you see

how mad it is and you can see that it all originates in the

structures of the human mind. It created that hell on a planet that

is basically paradise.

 

Q. In order to feel the present moment, I have to find a way to feel

what I haven't been feeling. I have to get beyond the pretense or the

shield that's over my heart, to somehow get through that to even get

to the place of thinking about it.

 

Yes. Very often there is denial of what is happening in the

present moment, not wanting it to happen, which includes what's

happening inside you at that moment, to completely say "yes" to

whatever emotion may be there or whatever your inner state may be at

this moment or to completely say "yes" to whatever the external

situation may be at this moment. It's too late to fight it because it

is. You can't fight what is.

You can take action on the basis of your acceptance of what is.

Action that arises out of that acceptance is very empowered. Action

that arises out of a negative state of resistance and denial and

saying `no.' can also sometimes contain a lot of energy, but it is

contaminated with heavy negativity. It comes out of the saying `no'

and it's there to strengthen or defend the egoic sense of self. So,

whatever action arises out of that would, in Eastern terms, be

called "karmic" which produces further karma and further suffering.

 

The moment you say yes to what is, you're no longer resisting life,

because life is always now.

 

A very radical shift in human consciousness is possible, but when

I say that, the egoic mind will immediately come in and say, "Okay,

just tell me how to get there and I will draw up a plan and we'll get

there at some point in the future." The ego will project a state of

perfection that "I can reach at some future time" and it will strive

towards that. That means it has taken the message of liberation and

incorporated it into its old structures of "at some point in the

future I will be okay and complete and fulfilled and whole. I just

need to get there. In the meantime, I'm unhappy because I'm not there

yet."

 

Q. So, how can one drop into the Now?

 

Very good question. Whenever you are observing what your mind

emotions are doing, witnessing what is going on inside you, the state

of presence is already arising. You can watch all of this, how noisy

your mind is. When you're suddenly aware of it, that ability to watch

means you've dropped out of the time-bound state. Something has

arisen that is very different. I call it the state of presence.

So, again, one could almost say there is no how. That state of

consciousness, which I call the state of presence, being fully

present in the Now, is the state of high alertness. Some people have

experienced it in certain situations of great danger accidentally.

That can be good if one remembers being in a state of intense

aliveness where there was also absence of thinking and of mental

noise, just a state of intense alert presence.

People who climb mountains or engage in other dangerous activities

love that state. It's the only time when they can be in that state.

If they were in past or future climbing a steep wall they wouldn't

survive for very long. So, in some situations you're forced into a

state of presence and it's so alive and fulfilling that the old state

becomes very unsatisfying.

 

Q. People keep wanting to go back and have more experiences so they

can be in that state.

 

Yes, but it's very limiting if the only place where you can be in

that state is where you engage in dangerous activities. Ultimately

the risk is very high that something will happen and you will drop

off the mountain.

That state of consciousness that I call presence, the good news is

that state is actually arising now almost by itself in many humans.

So it's not so much that we need to bring it about, "How can I make

it happen?" We can't. Rather it's being open for it so it can happen

with greater ease.

 

Q. So hardly any of us are going to have some flashing moment of

realization.

 

Some do, but that's not necessary. Gradually a state arising that

is inner stillness rather than noise, a state when mind activity

becomes secondary. All the mental noise no longer has the power to

grab you and to draw your attention in so completely that you're

totally identified with it. You begin to be able to see thinking as

just thinking, not such a big deal, and you realize that all the

problems that you and most humans are burdened with are mental noise.

There's no reality to any problem. I'm not saying that challenges

don't exist in life. Challenges come, but the only way they can exist

is in the Now and that's the only place where you can face the

challenge by taking action in the Now or surrendering to what is. In

either case it's not a problem.

You can verify this for yourself by asking, "What problem do I

have at this moment?" When you ask that question the mind becomes

still and you realize this moment is actually fine, because most

moments are fine. Even when they don't look fine on the surface, if

you become still enough the present moment always has a deep goodness

to it underneath the external appearance of what's happening in it

because the very power of your being is inseparable from what I call

the Now.

Ultimately the Now is the power of your consciousness prior to

thought, prior to forms arising out of it.

 

Q. What you're saying would sound quite familiar to someone studying

Buddhist Vippasana meditation techniques, using the practice of

watching the breath and just noticing what arises. Are you bringing a

message that's akin to that or is it different from what one would

experience in practicing that technique?

 

The essence of the Buddha's message was that, also. Meditation

methods are aimed also at bringing about the state of presence,

although he never used those words. The drawback with any technique,

although they may work occasionally but only ultimately when you drop

the technique, is that it gives you time.

There's a chapter in the book that is called The Inner Body. Some

people say it's a wonderful technique, but what I call the inner body

is to feel all the time the energy field that permeates the physical

body. The invisible energy field, the animating presence, is in every

cell of the body. To consciously be in and inhabit the body, even

when engaged in activities or talking or listening, is to have some

attention in the inner energy field of the body.

I wouldn't call it a technique because it's too simple. The oak

tree when it feels its roots deep in the earth isn't practising any

technique. It's a state of being. And not to be drawn back

continuously into identification with the mental noise is simply to

have attention in the inner energy field of the body.

To sense, to feel the body from within keeps you present. That

keeps you present and it's really all you need. If you want to call

it a technique that's fine, but it's so simple there isn't much to

it. If you inhabit the body, you're open to the state of presence and

it becomes a whole body state.

You become present with every cell of the body. You feel that

state of alert and alive presence in your feet, your arms, your

chest, your head. It's an entire body state. There you are in the Now

in that state of still alertness and whatever needs to happen comes

out of that state. In other words, the higher consciousness is

already operating, no longer the limited conditioned noisy human mind

but a far greater intelligence. The intelligence that runs the body

is far greater than that of the conscious mind. So you connect with

that.

 

 

The whole of nature, the beauty of the flower, unfolds in complete

silence.

 

 

Then your whole life can be an expression of no longer being

Little Me trying to make it, trying to survive or succeed, always

trying, trying, trying. Instead you become an expression of that

consciousness, the very intelligence that runs the universe,

realizing that you're far greater than you could every have imagined

coming from the Little Me trying to become a Big Me.

That's the state of just inhabiting the body. That becomes an

anchor for staying present. It's also the entry point into that state

of beautiful inner stillness where the mental noise subsides and

you're then highly consciouswithout noise. The amazing thing then is

that intelligence operates noiselessly.

Humans think that intelligence is associated with thinking.

Thinking is just a tiny aspect of intelligence, but most

intelligence, the whole of nature, the trees, grow in complete

silence. The embryo in the womb grows silently. It doesn't make a

noise. The whole of nature, the beauty of the flower, unfolds in

complete silence.

The galaxies exist in total silence and stillness and yet there's

incredible activity there, so they're all expressions of intelligence

that is at work silently. It's only in humans that intelligence, in

its limited expression as the human mind, is very noisy. The far

greater intelligence that is at work within yourself operates in

silence. That is the state of presence which is inseparable from

inner stillness.

That becomes your dwelling place, your home. You can still think

when it's needed. Thought will arise, but it will be in the service

of that deeper field of stillness, of being, no longer self-serving

thought. There's no effort, no trying to make it happen. That would

be the opposite of it. It's simply being open for it to happen

because it wants to happen.

Some people read the book and it happens. They experience inner

transformation because there's an energy that comes with the words

that triggers the state. It's like saying, "Don't you remember?" Or

people read the book and realize it's already arisen in them before

but they didn't have a name for it.

 

Q. Some people also come to your lectures and experience or hope to

experience it.

 

Yes. It can be very helpful to be in the energy field of presence

in a group. It's not the words. Some people come to all my talks.

They must have listened many times. I basically always talk about the

same things. So, after a while they don't come for the information or

the words any more. They come for the energy field of presence and

may hardly listen to the words.

 

Q. Is that something you see as coming from you?

 

It depends what you mean by "you." It doesn't come from me. It

comes through me. It's deeper. It's a movement of consciousness. I

mean that the form that I am is like the window frame for it and then

the light comes through the window.

Some people arrive for talks an hour early because they want to

sit close to me, not to be near the form of me but to be with the

light. It has nothing much to do with the window.

One way of putting it is that it's not me and that it happens

through me. But, it would be more true to say that the consciousness

which operates through me is ultimately who I am, not the me that is

the physical form that people see. That consciousness is also who you

are. So, when people come, sometimes from halfway around the world,

to a talk they don't really come to see or hear me. They come to be

with themselves, for the first time to be completely themselves,

getting out of the conditioning and the identification with mental

noise and emotions and simply be who you are.

 

 

If I forget that ultimately I'm nobody, then that would be the return

of the ego.

 

 

It's strange that they need to travel a long way to be with

themselves, but it works. Then, after a while, you don't need to

travel anymore to be with yourself.

 

Q. So, you're hoping that people don't feel they have to come and sit

with you to get this experience.

 

No. For a while it's useful, but after that it needs to happen

from within. It's fine as long as they feel it's helpful to have the

external reflection of it, but not become dependent on it. I

occasionally tell people to go away for a while so they don't become

dependent. Now, with the talks getting bigger I can't do that so I

must just trust that it will be fine and people won't become

dependent.

Words are useful here, because I do point out that this needs to

be lived rather than coming once a month or every two weeks to a

talk. That state of consciousness needs to arise every moment, no

matter what activities you're engaged in and particularly when life

challenges you. That's always the test of where you're at as far as

your state of consciousness is concerned. How you deal with the

challenges and whether the old reactive mind comes in or whether the

challenge makes you more present.

More and more people are able to become more present with every

challenge. In other words, something happens that the mind would in

the past have judged as bad or negative and want to get away from or

become angry about and resist and fight and deny, suddenly the same

challenge brings about a state of greater inner stillness and

alertness. Then action arises that is just right for that moment and

that situation, no longer the reactive mind operating out of its old

conditioning.

Challenges are wonderful things. With everything challenge comes

the opportunity of being intensely present and then action happens if

it's needed.

 

You see teachers struggling with how to handle the adulation and

appreciation that comes to them without getting bound up into it or

torn apart by it.

That's a challenge every spiritual teacher will be faced with at

some point. In some the ego comes back because they're bombarded with

projections of specialness. The ego always thinks of itself as

special either in greatness or misery. My problems, my achievements,

my failures, my sufferings are special. The danger is that at some

point he or she begins to believe that the form, me, is special. Of

course, that's the beginning of the end of the spiritual teacher.

So, I led a very secluded existence for many years being nobody in

the eyes of the world. A few people came, sometimes for spiritual

teaching, but not many. I was happy being nobody and I'm still

nobody, but in the eyes of the world now I'm somebody. If I forget

that ultimately I'm nobody then that would be the return of the ego.

It's a challenge, but so far it seems to be fine. I don't believe

that now I have become somebody. The power that comes through can

sometimes be very intense and wonderful. That's fine if there's no me

that identifies with it as my power. It's beautiful.

 

Q. So that's your job. To be nobody.

 

Yes, that's right.

 

Q. That's a lovely paradox.

 

Yes. I don't feel any different inside from the way I felt a few

years ago when I was a hermit. It still feels exactly the same

inside. And, I don't have a mental image of myself as a spiritual

teacher. When people go and I'm alone there really isn't anybody

there. It's just a state of stillness. I don't carry around inside me

the image of me as a spiritual teacher. That would be the beginning

of suffering.

[Guest guest]

thanks for this

I really appreciate what Eckhart has to say

Regards Chris