RE: Levels & Levels & Levels... (lengthy)

August 16, 2002

Hi Eric and Jan,

I'm not fully sure Eric, in how far you concur with what Jan is saying about

the transitoriness of levels / states, whether seen as realms on different

levels or states of consciousness, but you seem to be supplying supporting

info to that notion. Also I do not fully see how far Jan is going with his

remarks about transitoriness of these levels / states. Of course we know

from many teachings that we should not concentrate (at least not overly) on

experiences of "realms" or other states of being.

Let me add some material that I wrote recently, in which I even go further

and posit that "consciousness" on any level, from the highest to the lowest

is actually an after-effect from and a sign of disintegration of our

original natural wholeness. These levels do play a functional healing part,

as though they are layers of new skin over a cut (from dried blood to the

final scab that we will scratch off when the wound has been fully healed).

On the reappearance of direct awareness and immediacy, usual consciousness

decreases... and we are back to suchness... the human, a natural species

that was brought forth on and from earth, feels that it belongs and does not

work against it.

We tend to consider the human species from an evolutionary angle. We tend to

think that (1) the brain, and (2) our mental abilities, and (3) overall

"consciousness" puts humankind a step further ahead on some evolutionary

ladder.

I want to disagree with that... unless we are able to reintegrate ourselves

again with what this wonderful sacred earth and its divine life really stand

for. Reclaiming our Human Divine existence, that what Adam recovered during

his Kundalini episode. See the very last section of:

http://www.aurasphere.org/Kundalini%20Posts/Visions

I would like to say, that we need to take the view that we are advancing the

earth's evolution, withy great caution. There are tendencies that came with

the growth of the human brain and many subsequent characteristics of

mentality that are definitely not in synch with nature. One could even say

that humankind is a species that has been able to position itself in such a

way that it can be seen as anti-nature, if not on the whole than at least

for a very high percentage.

Rather than the human being having evolved in accordance with the laws of

nature, one could say that the human has devolved itself into a "de-natured

human".

The nature of human nature is its de-natured-ness.

.....

I sometimes joke that the human brain consists largely of two globs of

cholesterol (which is actually the case), but not the good kind of

cholesterol.

.....

I have already written in some posts that mankind has introduced the

"concepts" of cause/counter-cause or action/counter-action. This is a

conceptual contravention of the physical law of nature of cause/effect or

action/reaction.

When the Buddha talked about karma and the possible pitfalls of cause and

effect, he was actually referring to cause/counter-cause... not to the

physical laws of nature.

The Buddha was not anti-nature, in spite of what some commentators,

disciples and followers may have wanted to believe. (The depiction of the

Emaciated Buddha is related to the nectar experience that I have wrote about

to Shawn yesterday.) In the series of the five Dhyani Buddhas, one (Akshoby

Buddha) the forth one from the left in the attachment) shows a traditional

meditation posture of the Buddha Shakyamuni, there he is depicted with two

mudras or hand gestures, one hand touching the earth with the back of the

hand facing the viewer, and the other hand horizontally at the navel level

with the hand held open upwards. He used the earth as an evidence giving

witness to his enlightenment and liberation

I may as well get to the point. (pfffff finally :-) But please do not see

this as a criticism on traditional teachings.

I just want to look at consciousness from a different and maybe daring

angle, not treating it like a sacred cow...

One is either AWARE, a direct or immediate knowing ("scious") or in some

state of CONSCIOUSNESS, some illusive state of time lapse or "retardation",

a state that we usually call "con"-"scious". The "con" part of the

word

consciousness, which in Latin means "with" or "by means of" indicates that

within consciousness there is a medium, something through which something

else gets transmitted... I'm tempted to call that medium the "mind".

The mind here seen as a separator (a con man), a mediator maybe, but still

seen as holding us away from direct and immediate intimacy, causing us to

experience life indirectly.

Consciousness is something that we usually do not associate with forms of

existence such as rocks or water. Nor do we normally associate consciousness

with life forms such as flowers or trees or even insects or vertebrates

other than the human species. If, at this point, you are saying that you

consider plants or animals (such as dolphins) conscious, hold it for a sec,

as l propose to use the word "awareness" for that. The words aware,

veracity, verify, very, the German "wahr" (true) and the French "vrai"

(true) and "voir" (to see) all derive from the same Sanskrit root WAR, to

cover, surround, guard, observe, to see.

Awareness denotes very-ness, suchness... as in "Verily, verily..."

Any *state* of con-sciousness can actually not be characterised as

"immediate or direct" like pure awareness of suchness.

I posit that any state of consciousness was introduced early into a child's

life or as a result of a momentary *stasis* caused by some mishap, usually

brought about by an external and abrupt interruption of a child's play.

After such a momentary stasis, a recoil sets in, then some mental processing

takes place to undo the stasis in order to get back to one's original

immediacy of being.

This repair work normally does not work out, as it is usually interrupted

again.

That is the retardation or time lapse I am pointing at... It is supposed to

be a healing event... but it became a way of life... we became

con-scious..., we even value con-sciousness.

That most humans are it, is just too bad... :-)))

Demian from the ZenPearl list wrote:

"...like seeing as I did when I was child. Not attached to any of it,

because I knew not what it was, but rather everything fresh and new, without

an attachment to any of it, and without any thought of "this is this", or

"that is that." Almost like experiencing some experience that I have had all

my life, but was never aware of, except when I was a child. A kind of

feeling of "Hey I remember this" yet without the thought of "Hey I remember

this." Just a blissful experience."

All of nature, including undisturbed children and "immediate" humans are in

bliss.

Bliss is actually not an experience..., it is the undercurrent of being, the

current of being really, that what flows through the amrita nadi and all

other nadis. Of course, once one is in the process of reclaiming one's

originality (the repair process) we talk about the *experience* of bliss.

It was Lee also from ZenPearl who said:

"...Dainin Katagiri Roshi, used to give this example: "It is the 'AH!' when

you see a Moose in the Woods, before you say to yourself, "A moose in the

woods!"

That is close to the directness and immediacy that Demian and myself are

referring to.

With this time-lapse or retardation I do not mean "imbecility" of course; I

mean that one has lost synchronicity and syntopicity (chronos =time, topos=a

place in space). One has been mentally slowed down and gotten behind on the

space / time continuum along which our bliss's current runs.

This retardation is a kind of smeared-outness through the time dimension.

Try to visualize that.

Differing from temporal reality of the human, spatial reality is not right

away affected by the interruption in play, let me call it "hurt". (Hurt, the

interruption of Lila, the human / divine play that we so often and luckily

still find in the child.)

That retardation (whatever the hurting cause maybe) sets and keeps humans on

the road to losing their original integrity or wholeness due to that

smearing out over time, the varying experience of the passing of time in

different states of consciousness.

It is quite daring to posit that states of consciousness (any) may be signs

of pathology.

I should say that none of this is hypothetical to me, any of the states of

consciousness, from the satorial through the samadhic to the most ecstatic

and glorious, I have experienced over all these years, but I am not afraid

to secularise possible sacred cows... not in order to question or to doubt,

but to get to the root of what ails us, humankind, so... and to help

applying the solution to human / divine reintegration.

The solution is the very essence of the any yogic, even religious approach.

There may be nothing too novel in what I say, it is just that we so quickly

start pulling in concepts and elevated ideas about states of consciousness

that may not deserve that elevated status. They may even, and I have seen

that happen, draw us away again form that original clarity when realization

hits us into "immediacy" away from "intermediacy".

What I purposely try to say (and I am de-boning this topic with a very sharp

knife) is that AWARE is what we are in origin, essence and unadulterated

physical existence, or to say it differently, "We are in the KNOW."

Any other state of consciousness, which is not this non-mediated awareness,

not this direct knowing, I consider part of a pathological dynamic.

I can admit easily that I can see traits of this in myself! So what? We’ve

all been hurt, we are all a bit ill.

We trust though that having found out that one has lost sight of one’s

integrity that such is the most important step to regaining it...

"We are in the know."

I have written quite a bit over the years about the original and very

concrete, non-abstract meaning of the word "know".

“To know”, derives via the Latin cognoscere and Greek gignoskein from the

Sanskrit / Aryan roots GAN, GNA KNA. It has probably also very much to do

with “gn” in the word "agni" from the pre- Ashokan Brahmi language as found

on 5000 year old Indus Valley seals.

Words like ken, kin, kinship, the German Kind as in “kindergarten” and even

the word “kid” may via GNA and KNA derive from that word. The pictogram for

"agni" is very interesting and telling. I am sure I will share that sooner

or later. It has to do with sacrificial fire offerings of sheep, lamb, fish,

and... children... see the story of Abraham and Isaac.

For a kind of unintended but rather a propos illustration see also:

http://www.christiananswers.net/kids/clrpg005.html

"Know"

A very concrete meaning then.

To know someone, at some point in time also meant ‘to have intercourse’,

which later came to be known as carnal knowledge. Thus again, a very

concrete meaning...

“AWARE” is what we are in origin, essence and unadulterated existence.

"We are in the KNOW."

I consider that climactic being-together during intercourse, tantric or

otherwise, the moment when we are fully “in the know of each other” the

culmination and celebration of divine / human awareness, an awareness on the

communion level that fully transforms singleness into oneness.

This is the celebration and the play of who and what we are from the

beginning, in the end and anything in between, from Alpha through Omega. The

absolute being, integral human divine.

I see the play of the child as the first evidence of this celebration, a

play that, when it is not interfered with, will flower into the fecundity of

human/divine love.

.....

Any other way or expression of human existence in terms of “states of

consciousness” I see as the human being in a state of hurt, or in a state of

repairing that hurt.

....

It starts early, the hurt of the child, as I said, through abrupt

interferences in the play of life, causing this temporal retardation, this

sense of being slowed down, being made to be "out of time", too late to be

direct and immediate, to be caused to be "caught off guard", to have lost

touch, to be disabled to quickly recuperate from abrupt and unexpected

interruptions.

So to state this again, any state of consciousness, higher, lower, sub-,

super-, un-, self- or collective, I see each as a resultant of an initial,

repeated and prolonged hurt. However elevated we have made those states of

consciousness to sound, I still see them as signs of a pathology, not

hopeless though. They are not the sickness or the hurt per se, they are

stages in approaches to becoming un-hurt... And those stages on

consciousness have a whole range of fantastic experiences.... I’m not

poopooing them. No way, so many, so far out... but also... they are so easy

to get lost in.

The endpoint of all those stages or states of consciousness is an

ordinariness that is so glaringly clear... no fantasmas there... just the

celebratory ordinariness of the miracle of life, an epiphany without a

bang... the bliss current is just noted as forever having been there...

sweetness of life

....

The witness state, so often recommended, is helpful, but only as a temporary

state of consciousness to eventually return us to immediacy.

"Immediacy" has (1) a temporal connotation as "immediately connecting"

without any time lapse (retardation), and (2) a spatial connotation as

immediately connecting without any secondary medium but our sense faculties.

(By the way, the Heart Sutra is very strong on the right appreciation of the

senses, however we need a new translation to make that come through more

clearly.) I actually consider the watcher or witness state as almost the

epitome of being in a retarded state, but let me use the not so charged

words of "being in the experience of a time lapse."

Wim

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August 16, 2002

Good day, Dear Wim, and thank you for opening up an interesting

discussion with some very thoughtful ruminations! I briefly respond

in the )))))'s.

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

>"AWARE" is what we are in origin, essence and unadulterated

existence.

"We are in the KNOW."

))))) Yes, but when is existence "adulterated", since there is only

what is?

>I consider that climactic being-together during intercourse, tantric

or otherwise, the moment when we are fully "in the know of each

other" the culmination and celebration of divine / human awareness,

an awareness on the communion level that fully transforms singleness

into oneness.

)))) certainly for some, and yet for others, a preliminary to

collapsing further into sense of self and separateness, as

consciousness moves towards itself by paradoxically moving away from

itself in contraction following expansion.

>This is the celebration and the play of who and what we are from the

beginning, in the end and anything in between, from Alpha through

Omega. The absolute being, integral human divine.

)))) Yes, but not essentially different from sitting in a traffic

jam, for example, and fretting about bills.

>I see the play of the child as the first evidence of this

celebration, a play that, when it is not interfered with, will flower

into the fecundity of human/divine love.

))) might it not also be seen:

that which "interferes" is none other than love itself, interfering

with itself for a deeper knowing of itself?

>Any other way or expression of human existence in terms of "states of

consciousness" I see as the human being in a state of hurt, or in a

state of repairing that hurt.

)))) Hurt carries a connotation of dis-ease. It is as if to say that

there is some condition that is less than the perfection of now, and

thus in need of remedial treatment. This orientation precipitates the

great search for return to an imaginary ideal that is prior to the

perceived dis-ease -- a cure for being human, in other words, since

it presupposes a division in being.

Within any state of consciousness -- from unity through formless to

mystical to egoic -- there appears to be a core point of view, or

narrative, that is self-referential and thus both limited and

limiting. And yet, all states or modifications of consciousness

spontaneously arise and dissolve in Source -- Awareness -- as a kind

of mysterious play, having no inherent limitation or quality of

judgement except that which might be attributed them by the meaning-

making mechanism of imagination and conditioning. The ordinary mind

is indeed the very perfection of the Dharmakaya, even in its recoil

and resistance, since it is both empty and simultaneously the

abundance of all possibility. Whether believed or not, remembered or

not, experienced or not, conceived or not, there is no separate

entity in opposition to what is.

Most so-called spiritual traditions diagnose some sort of illness,

prescribe a remedial treatment of sadhana, and suggest that the

purpose of life is to get out of life. They typically propose that we

are damaged by virtue of having been born, and that this or that

method is a way to repair the damage of embodiment. Eastern religions

have made this whole expedition into a science -- the science of

return to that which nobody has ever left. Western religions posit

that we are essentially cut off from God by virtue of some sin, and

that we need to to this or that denomination of belief in

order to be saved and returned to God after the inconvenience of

showing up on earth as walking talking pathologies.

It's all the same lie -- the same perpetuation of the myth of

independent doership, of past and future, the same monkey and weasal

chase around the mulberry bush, the same mysterious play of the Great

Dreamer.

What a Comedian!

LoveAlways,

b

August 16, 2002

Dear Robert,

Thanks for taking the time going through these ruminations.

I wrote:

> > "AWARE" is what we are in origin, essence

> >and unadulterated existence.

> >"We are in the KNOW."

Robert writes:

>Yes, but when is existence "adulterated", since there is only what is?

"There is only what is", we are indeed in luck :-))) and part of this is

also our "mental conceptualising" which is usually our creative imagination

prior to energetic creation. We as humans apparently have a choice to use

this mental conceptualising either *according* to the *current* laws of

nature or *conceptually* in *discordance* as we cannot as yet (we are lucky

again) go against the current laws of nature. Although I use the word

discordance, I do not mean that in the pejorative sense, I am not judging

here.

I'll say a little more on "current" laws of nature later.

Let me try to give a perspective on the cosmic level. (Hey why not? :-)

Within the Oneness of Trinity we can see Vishnu and Shiva as obliging

executives serving Brahma.

http://www.chester-novello.com/work/8678/main.html for a musical composition

by Param Vir and

http://www.chez.com/hindou/dat.htm for some traditional Hindu Pictures.

Traditionally Shiva is seen as the divine personification of de-construction

and recycling and Vishnu as the divine personification of construction and

maintenance.

I see Shiva and Vishnu (amongst other things) as a very valid pre-scientific

notion of the theory about our expanding and contracting universe. Assuming

that this theory is correct, we are now experiencing the expansive phase,

while we intuit that the contractive phase is in our future and was in our

past.

I have a theory based on that. As we live in an expanding universe, the

conceptualising mind is to work creatively as the laws of nature are

expansive. When the universe contracts, the conceptualising mind may very

well have to work de-constructively as also the laws of nature will be

contractive. (There is of course a transition phase, but let me just leave

it at this.) This is an altogether daring notion but not altogether new in

mythical stories.

So I propose that we as humans living in an expanding universe, can

conceptually intuit de-constructive laws of nature for a contracting or

shrinking universe, while later (as humans or not and living in an shrinking

universe, we will conceptually intuit constructive laws of nature that

belong to a expanding universe.

There is a recent theory that says that the universe will not shrink or

contract... and truly according to our currently discovered laws of nature

that may be impossible. In due time though we will discover those laws as we

already intuit them.

So indeed, conceptually we can do de-constructive actions while still using

the laws of nature of an expanding constructing universe.

So in a way, and to say it with moral strings attached, what is morally

right and morally wrong in this expanding universe, will be reversed in a

shrinking universe.

I wrote:

> >I consider that climactic being-together during intercourse,

> >tantric or otherwise, the moment when we are fully

> >"in the know of each other" the culmination and celebration

> >of divine / human awareness, an awareness on the communion

> >level that fully transforms singleness into oneness.

Robert writes

>certainly for some, and yet for others, a preliminary to

>collapsing further into sense of self and separateness, as

>consciousness moves towards itself by paradoxically moving

>away from itself in contraction following expansion.

As I explained above, do you see how I explain the dynamics based on

universal physical laws?

Could it be that our universe is at the cusp of a transition from expansion

to contraction?

I wrote:

> >This is the celebration and the play of who and what we are

> >from the beginning, in the end and anything in between,

> >from Alpha through Omega. The absolute being, integral human divine.

Robert:

>Yes, but not essentially different from sitting in a traffic

>jam, for example, and fretting about bills.

Absolutely

I wrote:

> >I see the play of the child as the first evidence of this

> >celebration, a play that, when it is not interfered with,

> >will flower into the fecundity of human/divine love.

Robert:

>might it not also be seen:

>that which "interferes" is none other than love itself,

>interfering with itself for a deeper knowing of itself?

Again Robert, can you see how I can explain it with the dynamics outlined

above?

Wim

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August 16, 2002

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> I wrote:

> > >I see the play of the child as the first evidence of this

> > >celebration, a play that, when it is not interfered with,

> > >will flower into the fecundity of human/divine love.

Hi Wim,

I know that you wrote about "the play of the child" but I am looking

at it more broadly. Not critical, rather exploring the implications

of a thought which perhaps you did not intend.

On reading this I am reminded of the famous experiment in France in

the 18th century in which a group of children were not "interfered

with", no adult contact or guidance, except to insure that they could

have nourishment. Without exception they all ended up quite feral,

only growls and squeeks for language, and only bestial behavior. No

love human or divine there.

Kheyala and family is sharing with us the demonstration of the effect

of parental guidance in a quality appreciation and exchange with the

child. There is clearly a mixture of acceptance and boundaries being

set to support the loving growth process.

It seems to me that it takes a family to make a child whole. And the

effect of adolesence remains to be seen -- but I suspect it will be

better than usual in their family.

Before we become too idealistic the effects of causes, conditions and

their effects (karma) need to be taken into account in examining

possibilities. It seems to me that it takes all of "what is" to

develop whatever degree of love there is in what appears as you and

I, including the interference.

I won't go into my own family situation, except to say that my path

included a lot of interference as my parents and brothers worked

through their life paths. And for whatever reason I have had the

benefit of dealing with the "good" which came to me and

the "interferences" which were also present. Some of the

interferences I have learned from, and others which I find operating

within my consciousness I have been and am working through.

Losing the view of "self" has facilitated that process, and the

extent to which I still cling to a "self" is the problem,not any

interference from my family. Indeed, the seed bed of my family has

given me the foundation to build on.

The bottom line point is that it takes all of life and not leaving

anything out, not what we consider good nor what we consider

bad. "What is" is not exclusive. The dance, the Lila, includes it all

and as I have accepted that! I have come to understand ever more

deeply what love really means.

Sorry this is so long.

John L.

August 16, 2002

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

>So in a way, and to say it with moral strings attached, what is

morally right and morally wrong in this expanding universe, will be

reversed in a shrinking universe.

As I explained above, do you see how I explain the dynamics based on

universal physical laws?

Could it be that our universe is at the cusp of a transition from

expansion to contraction?

))) Brilliant analysis, Dear Brother!

I am reminded of certain Taoist maxims in this regard which seem to

echo your sentiments:

1. Everything at its extreme turns into its opposite.

2. The bigger the front, the bigger the back.

3. Within the Yang (contraction) resides

the seed of Yin (expansion).

Within the Yin resides the seed of Yang.

However, beyond interpretation as to apparent space/time play of

complimentary opposites (ie the concept of advancement or recession),

it might also be recognized that nothing has ever happened.

I have read several scientific theories about what the universe seems

to be up to these days, but one of my favorites was posted some time

ago by that happy chatterbox Sandeep Chatterjee:

In Europe few months back the London Sunday Times carried a

report on an experiment carried out at the NEC Research Institute in

Princeton, New Jersey where "light pulco" has been accelerated to 300

times their normal velocity of 186,00 miles per sec. The details of

the findings had been submitted to the International Scientific

journals "Nature" and "Science" for verification and validation

before open publication. This validation and verification took place

in the last few days. The experiment has been validated and reported

by the Science magazines and journals, including BBC, Washington Post

and other leading newspapers. The implications of this finding are

not mind- boggling but mind-annihilating. The Human Genome project is

nothing in comparison. The experiment showed that light pulse existed

in two places at once. In effect, it is "leaping forward in time"

(Sunday Times). What is making the scientists aghast is that "if

light can travel forward in time, it could carry information". This

(carriage of information) is being hotly argued against by the rest

of the scientific community, but that is like a Scientific DNS (Dark

Night of the Soul, where all life-long dearly cherished beliefs are

getting exposed for what they are. Obviously you are pissed off, in

agony) The breaching of the speed of Light would breach one of the

basic principles in Physics-Law of causality, which is based on the

premise that cause must come before effect. It would also shatter

Einstein's theory of Relativity." (Sunday Times). However, the

Princeton experiment is completely aligned to the premise or concept

that mystics have indicated for the last 5,000 years -- that

everything that has happened, is happening, is to happen, has all

already happened. And thus has anything ever happened? Is there

anything like a cause, an effect or are both "existing" together

simultaneously? Is the totality of the Picture already IS? If yes,

the concept of karma goes out of the window, the concept of effort

which really is a process of becoming (from an un-enlightened state,

you meditate or whatever your favorite poison, towards

enlightenment), all that is OUT.

Let's take the concept of enlightenment first. In the conceptual

world of phenomenality, something has a meaning only on the basis of

it's opposite. "Good" has no meaning unless the definition of "evil"

is in place and mutually agreed. Bin Laden and George Bush may not

have a mutually agreeable definition, for example. The concept

of "enlightenment" has no meaning unless one defines what that state

is to be, (which of course is a joke) and this is determined by

defining what an "Un-enlightened" state is to be. After all, one can

only know about freedom when one defines what bondage is, by

accepting that one is bound in the first place -- the very pursuit

perpetuating the bondage. One then assumes that one is currently "un-

enlightened" and then proceeds to

adopt "paths", "efforts", "practices", etc. which one believes will

move oneself from one state to the other. Bow Wow Mind: the

absurdity of all this -- dog chasing it's own tail -- but let's get

back to the consequences of the breaching of the Speed of Light. When

one defines the two states of "un-enlightened" and a

separate "enlightenment", one is actually accepting the process

of "becoming". You are "this" and you believe that you can

become "that". And you assume that this "becoming" can be achieved

through X, Y, Z, etc, etc. With the assumption of "becoming", you

give birth to the concepts of "time", as you need a postulate

of "duration" in which this "becoming" is to be completed, and you

give birth to the concept of space, in order to cognize

the "becoming". With the birth of the concepts time and space, you

give birth to the concept of the Causality, a cause, which occurs in

time and gives birth to an effect, also in time and space. (X,Y,Z

can get me enlightenment or a Million dollars, ability to walk on

water or seduce that blonde, whatever, a cause and an effect of that

cause). Now, with the breaching of the speed of Light, the experiment

reached 300 times the current record at Cosmic Olympics of 300,00-

kms per sec.. So, why not 30,000 times the current standard, why not

3 Million times, why not infinite times? If speed of light is

actually infinite (another concept), we have only been able to

recognize it as 300 times 300,000 kms per sec as of now. What you are

really seeing is that there is not even a trillionth of a nanosecond

difference between the starting point of light and ending point of

light. Existence in two places, is simultaneous. Existence in

infinite points is simultaneous. (At the moment, even the team at

NEC, Princeton, does not claim this is possible, but as said earlier

that is like a Scientific DNS). Cause and effect IS simultaneously.

All that has happened, is happening, is to happen, has already

happened. The totality of the picture is already there, was always.

Hence the postulate of time goes out of the window and with that

movement is an impossibility, and with movement becoming an

impossibility, the postulate of space is a joke. Ergo, "becoming" is

a joke, if the totality of the picture IS already. Cause, "becoming"

an effect, is a joke, because there is really no cause and effect.

Causality is thus a joke. The states of "un-enlightenment"

and "enlightenment", and movement between the two, is a joke. In

oneness, which is nothing but "existing" at infinity simultaneously,

what is there "un-enlightened" which is to become "enlightened"?

Let's now take our good old friend karma. The concept of karma

(essentially being the consequences of a previous "self" effecting

the current "self") is all based on the process of "becoming", which

is a joke. In oneness, who is laying karma on whom? My right hand

reaches out in love and clasps my left hand, earning "good" karma, or

reaches out in anger and slaps my left hand, earning "bad" karma --

it's all I, isn't it?

LoveAlways,

b

August 16, 2002

Hi John,

You wrote:

>>> On reading this I am reminded of the famous experiment in France in the

18th century <<<

I know this type of thing from France quite well, maybe it started with the

wild boy of Aveyron, a wolf child whose discovery Jean Jacques Rousseau used

as evidence for his belief in mankind's innate goodness and nobleness (the

noble savage). When I studied to become a teacher we went deeply into this.

It also plays strongly in Montessori education. We looked at it quite

critically and saw some tenuous idealism in this "wolf child" phenomenon.

In my post I used purposely words like "interruption" or "abrupt

interference", and when I used the word by itself I tried to give it a

negative connotation.

Overall though I consider interference a very positive thing, like

interference patterns with waves, nothing wrong with that. It is lovely to

play with a child as an playing adult, and the positive interference

patterns arising from that are part of the play.

>>> On reading this I am reminded of the famous experiment in France in the

18th century in which a group of children were not "interfered with", no

adult contact or guidance, except to insure that they could

have nourishment. Without exception they all ended up quite feral, only

growls and squeeks for language, and only bestial behavior. No love human or

divine there.<<<

Absolutely, "no man is an island" (John Donne) especially not a child.

>>> Kheyala and family is sharing with us the demonstration of the effect of

parental guidance in a quality appreciation and exchange with the child.

There is clearly a mixture of acceptance and boundaries being set to support

the loving growth process.<<<

I love Kheyalas examples. When our son was young we did similarly... it

worked out very well, there was actually no risk involved. I have written

about that before, we did quite an experiment during which we only allowed

positive interference, as positively natural as possible... quite down to

earth actually. I can, if you are interested find a post on this (to the

ZenPearl list).

What I write about may actually sound idealistic, but everything I write

about has been physically dealt with and tested, no concepts there. If

needed we went places that in normal society would have been considered

borderline responsible, none if it was though.

Fear is never a good teacher, a mixture of caution, trust and intuition is

though.

>>> It seems to me that it takes a family to make a child whole. And the

effect of adolesence remains to be seen -- but I suspect it will be better

than usual in their family.<<<

I have no doubt, as we have seen it already work out fine in our life and

that of the people we were working with.

>>>The bottom line point is that it takes all of life and not leaving

anything out, not what we consider good nor what we consider bad. "What is"

is not exclusive. The dance, the Lila, includes it all and as I have

accepted that! I have come to understand ever more deeply what love really

means.<<<

I already wrote to Robert something about "What is"

"What is" in inclusive of reality based sense perception as well as reality

based intuition but exclusive of illusion and conceptualism.

I should say that in the education of our child we have pretty categorically

left out the "bad", especially all references to dualism. We did not use

words like "Don't" and "No", we did not use absolutes and opposites, as we

were very aware of... Einstein's theory of relativity. My idea was that if

Einstein was correct, then we had to live in that reality or at least

discover it.

It is probably interesting to know that the Montessori method was presented

to the world in the same year 1905 as Einstein came with his most important

theories. Maria Montessori was a scientist, Italy's first woman minister of

education.

We did not make our cabin and house, what one would call, child proof, there

are wonderful ways to deal with what the world would normally consider

perilous.

Anyway, our reasons were very strong and obviously we had many discussions

with people around us who well meaningly warned us...

None of their fears materialized.

There is a lifetime guarantee included with each child, conditional upon

reading the small print... :-)

I could go deeper into this... but it has already been long enough.

>>>Sorry this is so long.<<<

John, I should be sorry about length... :-)

Wim

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August 16, 2002

So fascinating, Robert...

I just love this stuff, (and I love Sandeep...)

Wim

hrtbeat7 [hrtbeat7]

Friday, August 16, 2002 5:56 PM

Re: Levels & Levels & Levels... (lengthy)