Guest guest Posted August 17, 2002 Report Share Posted August 17, 2002 > Wim said: >> One is either AWARE, a direct or immediate knowing ("scious") or in >> some state of CONSCIOUSNESS, some illusive state of time lapse >> or "retardation", a state that we usually call "con"-"scious". >> The "con" part of the word consciousness, which in Latin means "with" >> or "by means of" indicates that within consciousness there is a >> medium, something through which something else gets transmitted... >> I'm tempted to call that medium the "mind". The mind here seen as a >> separator (a con man), a mediator maybe, but still seen as holding us >> away from direct and immediate intimacy, causing us to experience >> life indirectly. > > **********I like this, Wim. This is very interesting. We have all become our > own con man . Also...how about, " con cept and pre-cept? > >> Consciousness is something that we usually do not associate with >> forms of existence such as rocks or water. Nor do we normally >> associate consciousness with life forms such as flowers or trees or >> even insects or vertebrates other than the human species. If, at this >> point, you are saying that you consider plants or animals (such as >> dolphins) conscious, hold it for a sec, as l propose to use the >> word "awareness" for that. The words aware, veracity, verify, very, >> the German "wahr" (true) and the French "vrai" (true) and "voir" (to >> see) all derive from the same Sanskrit root WAR, to cover, surround, >> guard, observe, to see. Awareness denotes very-ness, suchness... as >> in "Verily, verily..." > >> Any *state* of con-sciousness can actually not be characterised as >> "immediate or direct" like pure awareness of suchness. >> I posit that any state of consciousness was introduced early into a >> child's life or as a result of a momentary *stasis* caused by some >> mishap, usually brought about by an external and abrupt interruption >> of a child's play. After such a momentary stasis, a recoil sets in, >> then some mental processing takes place to undo the stasis in order >> to get back to one's original immediacy of being. > > ******* The false identification will take place even if there is no > "interuption" in the child's play, simply becuse of the *embodyment*...no? > ( This is my key point BTW) > >> This repair work normally does not work out, as it is usually >> interrupted again. > > *******Something can be said here and I find my self to be in just the right > place to comment...Any amount of "fixing" one *does* is bound to the laws of > karma and that is why the "witnessing" that is actually of great use is a > grace-full thing and *not something *you* can do. Thus if you watch with > this kind of graceful vision as anger rises and you don't resist or indulge, > the power that one usually gives to the anger is absent and a burning > sensation (no, not that kind, stay with me) attributed to Kundalini is felt > and like a thin layer of clothing burning off the soul, a true winessing has > occured accumulating no moss, rolling slowly like some kind of divine strip > tease. Wow! I thought that was so intense and though I seemed to be in the > throws of my own conditioning once again, I *know* it was different that > time and now i feel lighter. And more naked! > >> That is the retardation or time lapse I am pointing at... It is >> supposed to be a healing event... but it became a way of life... we >> became con-scious..., we even value con-sciousness. > > ******Rather than a wound which it surely feels like, I prefer the anology > of the sheaths as in the Hindu. The subtle bodies or sheaths are described > in a hiarchical manner although in meditation, the journey is within and > thus the bodies are percieved to be as onion layers or clothes (robes, since > we all too often worship the expirience as Ultimate Truth). These clothes > are "put on" in an effort of identification/survival that is completely > appropriate (as I'm sure you well know) and although you may feel that it > "stunts" the "growth"...well, can a shirt stunt your growth? > > >> That most humans are it, is just too bad... :-))) > > *********The fact that the misidentification is so mighty is what makes for > the dangerousness to the world at large....but I would argue that the > "natural state" although it is closer to at least being a benign > disposition, it is never the less not the same as Realized. > UH- OH....donnnnn ,da don don daaaaa ......did I just say that? > >> Demian from the ZenPearl list wrote: >> "...like seeing as I did when I was child. Not attached to any of it, >> because I knew not what it was, but rather everything fresh and new, >> without an attachment to any of it, and without any thought of "this >> is this", or "that is that." Almost like experiencing some experience >> that I have had all my life, but was never aware of, except when I >> was a child. A kind of feeling of "Hey I remember this" yet without >> the thought of "Hey I remember this." Just a blissful experience." > > *******As with Adam and Eve, the childish innocence I feel is being overly > rated as the true nature of childish innocence is also a brutal thing having > nothing to do with compassion as there is no seperation on even a mental > level. It is one thing not to have discriminating intelligence, and another > thing to have it, and still another thing to have it and realise it is only > relatively significant....and so, I think what I am saying is obvious, that > we have at least three things here. bwahahah! > >> All of nature, including undisturbed children and "immediate" humans >> are in bliss. Bliss is actually not an experience..., it is the >> undercurrent of being, the current of being really, that what flows >> through the amrita nadi and all other nadis. Of course, once one is >> in the process of reclaiming one's originality (the repair process) >> we talk about the *experience* of bliss. > > ********Yes, and like "awareness" is covered by the mind and thus, though we > are never for one moment *not* the Self, few "re-cognize it. To be aware of > your own bliss is infinitely different than to be only aware of the great > pain one may have one's attention on. > >> It was Lee also from ZenPearl who said: >> "...Dainin Katagiri Roshi, used to give this example: "It is >> the 'AH!' when you see a Moose in the Woods, before you say to >> yourself, "A moose in the woods!" > > ********Ah, yes, the moment you piss yourself! > >> That is close to the directness and immediacy that Demian and myself >> are referring to. >> >> With this time-lapse or retardation I do not mean "imbecility" of >> course; I mean that one has lost synchronicity and syntopicity >> (chronos =time, topos=a place in space). One has been mentally slowed >> down and gotten behind on the space / time continuum along which our >> bliss's current runs. > > ********Dam thing is just going too fast to keep up, like counting on your > fingers, eh? Don't worry though technology is going to even out the playing > field! ...So to free up your attention is the first order of business for > one so enmeshed in his own number/role/game. And "attention is really the > name of the game isn't it? The very act of attention has a motive, a reason > to move...it is natural to get caught up in the game. No? > >> This retardation is a kind of smeared-outness through the time >> dimension. Try to visualize that. Differing from temporal reality of >> the human, spatial reality is not right away affected by the >> interruption in play, let me call it "hurt". (Hurt, the >> interruption of Lila, the human / divine play that we so often and >> luckily still find in the child.) That retardation (whatever the >> hurting cause maybe) sets and keeps humans on the road to losing >> their original integrity or wholeness due to that smearing out over >> time, the varying experience of the passing of time in different >> states of consciousness. >> >> It is quite daring to posit that states of consciousness (any) may be >> signs of pathology. > > *******You may as well call sentient life a pathology! > > > I should say that none of this is hypothetical to >> me, any of the states of consciousness, from the satorial through the >> samadhic to the most ecstatic and glorious, I have experienced over >> all these years, but I am not afraid to secularise possible sacred >> cows... not in order to question or to doubt, but to get to the root >> of what ails us, humankind, so... and to help applying the solution >> to human / divine reintegration. The solution is the very essence of >> the any yogic, even religious approach. > > Perhaps it lies in the refusal to love when in the presence of apparent > non-love. >> >> There may be nothing too novel in what I say, it is just that we so >> quickly start pulling in concepts and elevated ideas about states of >> consciousness that may not deserve that elevated status. They may >> even, and I have seen that happen, draw us away again form that >> original clarity when realization hits us into "immediacy" away >> from "intermediacy". > > *******Love that con man middleman thing, brilliant, Wim! > > >> What I purposely try to say (and I am de-boning this topic with a >> very sharp knife) is that AWARE is what we are in origin, essence and >> unadulterated physical existence, or to say it differently, "We are >> in the KNOW." >> >> Any other state of consciousness, which is not this non-mediated >> awareness, not this direct knowing, I consider part of a pathological >> dynamic. > > ******yes the demon ego. But you've got to love it, right? > all for now, this a bit long, but really enjoyed it. > Thanks Wim > )))))))))))))shawn > >> I can admit easily that I can see traits of this in myself! So what? >> We've all been hurt, we are all a bit ill. We trust though that >> having found out that one has lost sight of one's integrity that such >> is the most important step to regaining it... >> >> "We are in the know." >> >> I have written quite a bit over the years about the original and very >> concrete, non-abstract meaning of the word "know". >> "To know", derives via the Latin cognoscere and Greek gignoskein from >> the Sanskrit / Aryan roots GAN, GNA KNA. It has probably also very >> much to do with "gn" in the word "agni" from the pre- Ashokan Brahmi >> language as found on 5000 year old Indus Valley seals. >> Words like ken, kin, kinship, the German Kind as in "kindergarten" >> and even the word "kid" may via GNA and KNA derive from that word. >> The pictogram for "agni" is very interesting and telling. I am sure I >> will share that sooner or later. It has to do with sacrificial fire >> offerings of sheep, lamb, fish, and... children... see the story of >> Abraham and Isaac. For a kind of unintended but rather a propos >> illustration see also: >> http://www.christiananswers.net/kids/clrpg005.html >> >> "Know" >> A very concrete meaning then. >> >> To know someone, at some point in time also meant `to have >> intercourse', which later came to be known as carnal knowledge. Thus >> again, a very concrete meaning... >> >> "AWARE" is what we are in origin, essence and unadulterated existence. >> "We are in the KNOW." >> >> I consider that climactic being-together during intercourse, tantric >> or otherwise, the moment when we are fully "in the know of each >> other" the culmination and celebration of divine / human awareness, >> an awareness on the communion level that fully transforms singleness >> into oneness. >> >> This is the celebration and the play of who and what we are from the >> beginning, in the end and anything in between, from Alpha through >> Omega. The absolute being, integral human divine. >> >> I see the play of the child as the first evidence of this >> celebration, a play that, when it is not interfered with, will flower >> into the fecundity of human/divine love. >> >> .... >> >> Any other way or expression of human existence in terms of "states of >> consciousness" I see as the human being in a state of hurt, or in a >> state of repairing that hurt. >> >> ... >> >> It starts early, the hurt of the child, as I said, through abrupt >> interferences in the play of life, causing this temporal retardation, >> this sense of being slowed down, being made to be "out of time", too >> late to be direct and immediate, to be caused to be "caught off >> guard", to have lost touch, to be disabled to quickly recuperate from >> abrupt and unexpected interruptions. >> >> So to state this again, any state of consciousness, higher, lower, >> sub-, super-, un-, self- or collective, I see each as a resultant of >> an initial, repeated and prolonged hurt. However elevated we have >> made those states of consciousness to sound, I still see them as >> signs of a pathology, not hopeless though. They are not the sickness >> or the hurt per se, they are stages in approaches to becoming un- >> hurt... And those stages on consciousness have a whole range of >> fantastic experiences.... I'm not poopooing them. No way, so many, so >> far out... but also... they are so easy to get lost in. >> The endpoint of all those stages or states of consciousness is an >> ordinariness that is so glaringly clear... no fantasmas there... just >> the celebratory ordinariness of the miracle of life, an epiphany >> without a bang... the bliss current is just noted as forever having >> been there... sweetness of life >> >> ... >> >> The witness state, so often recommended, is helpful, but only as a >> temporary state of consciousness to eventually return us to immediacy. >> "Immediacy" has (1) a temporal connotation as "immediately connecting" >> without any time lapse (retardation), and (2) a spatial connotation as >> immediately connecting without any secondary medium but our sense >> faculties. (By the way, the Heart Sutra is very strong on the right >> appreciation of the senses, however we need a new translation to make >> that come through more clearly.) I actually consider the watcher or >> witness state as almost the epitome of being in a retarded state, but >> let me use the not so charged words of "being in the experience of a >> time lapse." >> >> Wim >> --- >> >> >> >> Sponsor >> >> >> AdyashantiSatsang >> >> >> >> Terms of Service >> <> . > > > Sponsor > > > AdyashantiSatsang > > > > Terms of Service > <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.