Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > There is a basic disagreement and two > camps (IMO) exist here, one which says you are already there, and > one which says keep applying effort. I don't think either is Truth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 , "david bozzi" <david.bozzi@i...> wrote: > , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > > > There is a basic disagreement and two > > camps (IMO) exist here, one which says you are already there, and > > one which says keep applying effort. > > I don't think either is Truth... If you have missed this disagreement then that could be why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 , "texasbg2000" wrote: > "david bozzi" <david.bozzi@i...> wrote: > > I don't think either is Truth... > If you have missed this disagreement then that could be why. I have been busy with the disagreement within myself, so in this regard I have been with everyone all the while and missed nothing... David (just like you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 on 8/20/02 2:23 PM, david bozzi at david.bozzi wrote: > , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > >> There is a basic disagreement and two >> camps (IMO) exist here, one which says you are already there, and >> one which says keep applying effort. > > I don't think either is Truth... ============= One who sees camps is camping. Truely let's get to the heart. Isn't it the base illusion to see opposing forces. Isn't this the paradigm (sp?) of what is wrong or troublesome when ego is thought to be running things? Me seperate from all else...against all else? There is no opposing forces....everyone seeks until they stop...seeking is simply an activity that needs to be addressed. No one is wrong for seeking....it is appropriate for its time, we all do it...but the one who seeks...this is what is sought. Who seeks? says Ramana. it is like sudden vs. gradual enlightenment...they are not opposed except in the mind that thinks it so. must we agree on a concept? Why can't we argue without getting hurt feelings? Nobody wants to hurt another on this list. I am sure of it. And yet if you hold certain ideas as true then they are "your" ideas and become precious to you and then you *will* get hurt (but only your ego hurts, not the Self which you really are). Ideas....let them be seen as clouds...even see you liking and disliking...don't judge...The one who judges is himself an idea. Peace to all (then giving a nod, up the chimney he rose) Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 8/20/02 2:23 PM, david bozzi at david.bozzi@i... wrote: > > > , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > > > >> There is a basic disagreement and two > >> camps (IMO) exist here, one which says you are already there, and > >> one which says keep applying effort. > > > > I don't think either is Truth... > > ============= > > One who sees camps is camping. Truely let's get to the heart. Isn't it the > base illusion to see opposing forces. Dear Shawn: This is an example of not being able to voice an opinion about a relationship without being opposed by a statement of absolutism. Noticing relationships between people with different views is a valuable asset in communication. Love Bobby G. > > Isn't this the paradigm (sp?) of what is wrong or troublesome when ego is > thought to be running things? Me seperate from all else...against all else? > > There is no opposing forces....everyone seeks until they stop...seeking is > simply an activity that needs to be addressed. No one is wrong for > seeking....it is appropriate for its time, we all do it...but the one who > seeks...this is what is sought. Who seeks? says Ramana. > > it is like sudden vs. gradual enlightenment...they are not opposed except in > the mind that thinks it so. must we agree on a concept? > > Why can't we argue without getting hurt feelings? Nobody wants to hurt > another on this list. I am sure of it. And yet if you hold certain ideas as > true then they are "your" ideas and become precious to you and then you > *will* get hurt (but only your ego hurts, not the Self which you really > are). Ideas....let them be seen as clouds...even see you liking and > disliking...don't judge...The one who judges is himself an idea. > > Peace to all (then giving a nod, up the chimney he rose) > > Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 , "david bozzi" <david.bozzi@i...> wrote: > , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > > > There is a basic disagreement and two > > camps (IMO) exist here, one which says you are already there, and > > one which says keep applying effort. > > I don't think either is Truth... or David, maybe both are true at the same time Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 on 8/20/02 5:35 PM, texasbg2000 at Bigbobgraham wrote: > Dear Shawn: > > This is an example of not being able to voice an opinion about a > relationship without being opposed by a statement of absolutism. > > Noticing relationships between people with different views is a > valuable asset in communication. > > Love > Bobby G. ============== Dear bobby, Where is my absolutism? You are welcome to disaggree. If I say there is no opposition , how can I be right when you disaggree? Did I say something irrefutable? If i did, who can blame me? The mind loves to argue. I can see me now having great fun at the expense of those who think their thought belongs to them. Do you see the freedom inherent in witnessing your own thoughts and feelings? The reason for the disagreement is misunderstanding and believing in absolute viewpoints. I will never agree to one man, *any* man having an exclusive claim to Truth. My statement is merely that effort preceeds surrender. But I am sure one could turn this around and have it make sense. This is why the mind will never find the truth. It is beyond mind. It is a paradox to talk about, so some will not even try. Now should we just keep quiet if what we have to say is different from another. Perhaps I have not been as sensitive as I should be? Vichara is effort. I love effort. peace through cooperation, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Shawn & Friends, Shawn, it is the mind that must surrender, and therein lies the difficulty. yours in the bonds, eric , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 8/20/02 5:35 PM, texasbg2000 at Bigbobgraham@a... wrote: > > Dear Shawn: > > > > This is an example of not being able to voice an opinion about a > > relationship without being opposed by a statement of absolutism. > > > > Noticing relationships between people with different views is a > > valuable asset in communication. > > > > Love > > Bobby G. > ============== > > Dear bobby, > > Where is my absolutism? > > You are welcome to disaggree. If I say there is no opposition , how can I be > right when you disaggree? Did I say something irrefutable? > > If i did, who can blame me? The mind loves to argue. I can see me now having > great fun at the expense of those who think their thought belongs to them. > > Do you see the freedom inherent in witnessing your own thoughts and > feelings? > > The reason for the disagreement is misunderstanding and believing in > absolute viewpoints. I will never agree to one man, *any* man having an > exclusive claim to Truth. > > My statement is merely that effort preceeds surrender. But I am sure one > could turn this around and have it make sense. This is why the mind will > never find the truth. It is beyond mind. It is a paradox to talk about, so > some will not even try. > > Now should we just keep quiet if what we have to say is different from > another. Perhaps I have not been as sensitive as I should be? > Vichara is effort. I love effort. > > peace through cooperation, > > Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 This summer I passed a small town in Italy on the border to France. A town with old houses , many with broken windows and an incredible mess of roads filled with cars and trucks everywhere queuing for customs or paying highway toll. In the middle of this was a camping ground, most of it under the highways, Roma Camping. The worst place possible, just unbelievable. One kilometre in any direction the nature is absolutely fantastic, mountains and beaches everywhere. Some people were actually camping there.... Alan I am really sorry I did not take a picture, but I was busy getting through the mess : ) - eblack101 Wednesday, August 21, 2002 8:40 AM Re: Camping Shawn & Friends,Shawn, it is the mind that must surrender, and therein lies the difficulty.yours in the bonds,eric, shawn <shawn@w...> wrote:> on 8/20/02 5:35 PM, texasbg2000 at Bigbobgraham@a... wrote:> > Dear Shawn:> > > > This is an example of not being able to voice an opinion about a> > relationship without being opposed by a statement of absolutism.> > > > Noticing relationships between people with different views is a> > valuable asset in communication.> > > > Love> > Bobby G. > ==============> > Dear bobby,> > Where is my absolutism?> > You are welcome to disaggree. If I say there is no opposition , how can I be> right when you disaggree? Did I say something irrefutable?> > If i did, who can blame me? The mind loves to argue. I can see me now having> great fun at the expense of those who think their thought belongs to them.> > Do you see the freedom inherent in witnessing your own thoughts and> feelings?> > The reason for the disagreement is misunderstanding and believing in> absolute viewpoints. I will never agree to one man, *any* man having an> exclusive claim to Truth.> > My statement is merely that effort preceeds surrender. But I am sure one> could turn this around and have it make sense. This is why the mind will> never find the truth. It is beyond mind. It is a paradox to talk about, so> some will not even try.> > Now should we just keep quiet if what we have to say is different from> another. Perhaps I have not been as sensitive as I should be?> Vichara is effort. I love effort.> > peace through cooperation,> > Shawn/join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Shawn, > Isn't it the base illusion to see opposing forces. Yep. Love you, Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 8/2/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 > ============== > > Dear bobby, > > Where is my absolutism? > > You are welcome to disaggree. If I say there is no opposition , how can I be > right when you disaggree? Did I say something irrefutable? > > If i did, who can blame me? The mind loves to argue. I can see me now having > great fun at the expense of those who think their thought belongs to them. > > Do you see the freedom inherent in witnessing your own thoughts and > feelings? > > The reason for the disagreement is misunderstanding and believing in > absolute viewpoints. I will never agree to one man, *any* man having an > exclusive claim to Truth. > > My statement is merely that effort preceeds surrender. But I am sure one > could turn this around and have it make sense. This is why the mind will > never find the truth. It is beyond mind. It is a paradox to talk about, so > some will not even try. > > Now should we just keep quiet if what we have to say is different from > another. Perhaps I have not been as sensitive as I should be? > Vichara is effort. I love effort. > > peace through cooperation, > > Shawn Dear Shawn Thanks for such a thoughtful reply. I am sorry it took so long to respond but responsibilities impinged. Ramana approved of many of the books written in his name where instructions were given about practices designed to make one fit for self inquiry. There were also many statements indicating there is no path to follow. The first has to do with relative statements and the second has to do with the absolute viewpoint. (I am trying to define how I see it by saying that) Most of my interests lie in the relative position and hence the nature of my posts. To negate them from the absolute (there is no path) is non productive IMO. If this has not been happening and I have imagined it then I apologize for bringing it up. I would not think of critisizing someone singing praises of oneness and love by saying 'grow up and deal with your tendencies' because I see value in both views. Likewise I don't see 'forget about practices, you are already there', as respectful. Much Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 on 8/21/02 3:13 PM, texasbg2000 at Bigbobgraham wrote: Likewise I don't see 'forget about > practices, you are already there', as respectful. > > Much Love > Bobby G. > =========== I am so sorry Bobby if you think I have been disrespectful. I didn't mean any harm. Please feel free to regard my words as passing clouds and truely powerless over you, unless you choose to give them power. Once again, please accept my oppologies. love Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 8/21/02 3:13 PM, texasbg2000 at Bigbobgraham@a... wrote: > > Likewise I don't see 'forget about > > practices, you are already there', as respectful. > > > > Much Love > > Bobby G. > > > =========== > > I am so sorry Bobby if you think I have been disrespectful. I didn't mean > any harm. > > Please feel free to regard my words as passing clouds and truely powerless > over you, unless you choose to give them power. > > Once again, please accept my oppologies. > > love Shawn dear Shawn: I don't see an apology. I see you saying if I am affected by your words It is due to a choice of mine not yours. I see you saying you're sorry that I think you are disrespectful. I don't see any indication you even believe you may have critized unfairly. No apology is necessary and I wasn't asking for one. You can write any thing you want. I just wanted to be clear about how I see the different views in the earlier post. Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 We join our actors once again on the outskirts of the settlement. There is barbed wire now dividing the camps ever further away from any possible peace settlement. Shawn offered his hand in friendship to the Bobby G, but Bobby has apparently seen an imaginary buzzer laying in wait. Wait...wait...there's Shawn coming out of his tent...... "Bobby, I believe I may have been harsh and direspectful with my words. I am not going to go back over all the posts and look for where I might have been,,,though! I'll take your word for it." I'm sorry. > > I don't see an apology. Bobby, Again, I'm sorry, I didn't mean any harm. I see you saying if I am affected by your > words It is due to a choice of mine not yours. Is this true? How we see things is what this spiritual stuff is all about, isn't it? you, of all people should have some distance with your ego,no? I see you saying > you're sorry that I think you are disrespectful. I don't see any > indication you even believe you may have critized unfairly. "Criticise unfairly" *is* your judgement...though... isn't it? Must *I* believe what you want me to believe...just because *you* believe it? Can't we just move this fence outta here and live as brothers? > No apology is necessary and I wasn't asking for one. I gave you one, nevertheless. But you choose to put up your nose and fold your arms. Is that a learned asana? You can write > any thing you want. Thank you, but I now sense eggshells and not a little animosity. I just wanted to be clear about how I see the > different views in the earlier post. I'm glad *you* feel better. you wanted *me* to be clear or just you? > Bobby G. Somehow Bobby, right now I get the picture that you resemble Clint Eastwood in "Unforgiven" and I am Gene Hackman (that SOB) and you're about to say , *Deserve's* got nothin' to do with it. (and then he blows Gene's head off) no more love....allllll gone. goodbye cruel world, shaking hands with an imaginary Bobby in a perfect world (by *my* standards of course) love..........................(these are tippytoes)...............shawn get some distance with your personality, dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 Hey Shawn I appreciate your appreciating my views. You are to me a fine and thoughtful person. I am sorry to take so long but I thought I would have my modem fixed on Friday and did not. I have gone to the library to send a few messages. It may be awhile so you'll have to hold down the fort without me. Much love Bobby G. , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > We join our actors once again on the outskirts of the settlement. > There is barbed wire now dividing the camps ever further away from any > possible peace settlement. Shawn offered his hand in friendship to the Bobby > G, but Bobby has apparently seen an imaginary buzzer laying in wait. > Wait...wait...there's Shawn coming out of his tent...... > > "Bobby, > I believe I may have been harsh and direspectful with my words. > > I am not going to go back over all the posts and look for where I might > have been,,,though! I'll take your word for it." > I'm sorry. > > > > > I don't see an apology. > > Bobby, > Again, I'm sorry, I didn't mean any harm. > > > > I see you saying if I am affected by your > > words It is due to a choice of mine not yours. > > Is this true? How we see things is what this spiritual stuff is all about, > isn't it? you, of all people should have some distance with your ego,no? > > > I see you saying > > you're sorry that I think you are disrespectful. I don't see any > > indication you even believe you may have critized unfairly. > > "Criticise unfairly" *is* your judgement...though... isn't it? > Must *I* believe what you want me to believe...just because *you* believe > it? Can't we just move this fence outta here and live as brothers? > > > No apology is necessary and I wasn't asking for one. > > I gave you one, nevertheless. But you choose to put up your nose and fold > your arms. Is that a learned asana? > > > You can write > > any thing you want. > > Thank you, but I now sense eggshells and not a little animosity. > > > > I just wanted to be clear about how I see the > > different views in the earlier post. > > I'm glad *you* feel better. you wanted *me* to be clear or just you? > > > > Bobby G. > > Somehow Bobby, right now I get the picture that you resemble Clint Eastwood > in "Unforgiven" and I am Gene Hackman (that SOB) and you're about to say , > *Deserve's* got nothin' to do with it. (and then he blows Gene's head off) > > no more love....allllll gone. > > goodbye cruel world, > > shaking hands with an imaginary Bobby in a perfect world (by *my* standards > of course) > love..........................(these are tippytoes)...............shawn > get some distance with your personality, dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 on 8/26/02 6:39 AM, texasbg2000 at Bigbobgraham wrote: > Hey Shawn > > I appreciate your appreciating my views. You are to me a fine and > thoughtful person. ))))) isn't it great, being appreciated. I appreciate your appreciating as well,,,geee I hope this appreciating includes compound daily interest, then we'd really be getting somewhere, although just where, I'll never know! (see Grouch Marx in mind) > I am sorry to take so long but I thought I would have my modem fixed > on Friday and did not. I have gone to the library to send a few > messages. ((((((Never mind the library, you're coming through fine...and those modems, don't you just love the way they can maneuver in traffic? > It may be awhile so you'll have to hold down the fort without me. > > Much love > Bobby G. )))))))It's a non dual list so...no problem. I promise not to duel without you. Get a good price, shop around and don't take any wooden modems...and I have found you get taken advantage of, if when asked what kind of modem you have, you answer "white." love in the stacks, Shawn > , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: >> We join our actors once again on the outskirts of the > settlement. >> There is barbed wire now dividing the camps ever further away from > any >> possible peace settlement. Shawn offered his hand in friendship to > the Bobby >> G, but Bobby has apparently seen an imaginary buzzer laying in wait. >> Wait...wait...there's Shawn coming out of his tent...... >> >> "Bobby, >> I believe I may have been harsh and direspectful with my words. >> >> I am not going to go back over all the posts and look for where I > might >> have been,,,though! I'll take your word for it." >> I'm sorry. >> >>> >>> I don't see an apology. >> >> Bobby, >> Again, I'm sorry, I didn't mean any harm. >> >> >> >> I see you saying if I am affected by your >>> words It is due to a choice of mine not yours. >> >> Is this true? How we see things is what this spiritual stuff is all > about, >> isn't it? you, of all people should have some distance with your > ego,no? >> >> >> I see you saying >>> you're sorry that I think you are disrespectful. I don't see any >>> indication you even believe you may have critized unfairly. >> >> "Criticise unfairly" *is* your judgement...though... isn't it? >> Must *I* believe what you want me to believe...just because *you* > believe >> it? Can't we just move this fence outta here and live as brothers? >> >>> No apology is necessary and I wasn't asking for one. >> >> I gave you one, nevertheless. But you choose to put up your nose > and fold >> your arms. Is that a learned asana? >> >> >> You can write >>> any thing you want. >> >> Thank you, but I now sense eggshells and not a little animosity. >> >> >> >> I just wanted to be clear about how I see the >>> different views in the earlier post. >> >> I'm glad *you* feel better. you wanted *me* to be clear or just you? >> >> >>> Bobby G. >> >> Somehow Bobby, right now I get the picture that you resemble Clint > Eastwood >> in "Unforgiven" and I am Gene Hackman (that SOB) and you're about > to say , >> *Deserve's* got nothin' to do with it. (and then he blows Gene's > head off) >> >> no more love....allllll gone. >> >> goodbye cruel world, >> >> shaking hands with an imaginary Bobby in a perfect world (by *my* > standards >> of course) >> love..........................(these are > tippytoes)...............shawn >> get some distance with your personality, dude! > > > Sponsor > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the > ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. > A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising > from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Terms of Service > <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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