How the taught feel inadequate.

[Guest guest]

Wim, b. & Friends,

 

b. quotes Wim as saying:

> >One could actually say that it is the teachers who made the taught

> feel inadequate...

>

> ))) "The student creates the teacher."

> ~ Moo Shu

>

eric says: If pork, in the political sense, means attention spent on

misguided and unworthy projects, this quotation of Moo Shu's is surely Moo

Shoo Pork.

 

Not that he isn't saying something, but rather what is implied by juxtaposing

it with Wim's quote gives entirely the wrong idea. The Moo shoo Pork

Combination Platter.

 

First to Wim-ji, Wim I don't think you've got it this time. People come to a

spiritual teacher for no other reason than that they are already steeped in a

feeling of inadequacy, or more appropriately, a conscious knowledge of

their inability to find personal satisfaction or a meaningful approach to the

truth. Teachers of any validity in any tradition known to me don't create

this condition. The life circumstances or karma of the novice student has

already created this condition. As to whether Gurus of certain traditions

tactically enhance this disatisfaction, a technique refered to in Zen as "the

Great Doubt", that would be an entirely different matter. But that's not what

we are discussing here.

 

"The student creates the teacher" has to do with the fact that the student

can never know the "reality" or real substance of the teacher, as the teacher

is actively participating in a world of "that" or "suchness" or "the

Dharmakaya", while the student's participation is involuntary and partially

unconscious. Moo Shoo points at the psychological "fact" of the student, not

a dynamic qualifying the Guru/disciple relationship.

 

My great doubts these days have to do with Jerry and his relationship to

doughnuts, and so far, no teacher has stepped forward to clear the way.

 

yours in the bonds,

eric

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/12/02 7:10:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

know_mystery writes:

 

<< Or, can the answer be restated: the teachers'

students and the healers' patients? Do we always know who is the

teacher and who is the student? >>

 

 

Well put. In my experience as a "healer," healing is always reciprocal.

Holly

[Guest guest]

, EBlackstead@c... wrote:

><snip>...

> First to Wim-ji, Wim I don't think you've got it this time. People

come to a

> spiritual teacher for no other reason than that they are already

steeped in a

> feeling of inadequacy, or more appropriately, a conscious

knowledge of

> their inability to find personal satisfaction or a meaningful

approach to the

> truth.

 

 

Hmmm. Maybe not so fast Grasshopper? When you say 'for no other

reason' is there an implication of "reason" = "logically reducible

cause and effect?" Some "students" may have been presented to

some "teachers" in order that the teachers may learn yet further...

Not that either party is aware of this, especially at first and maybe

not ever... Who teaches the teachers? Who heals the healers? Maybe

the answers to this question are: the teachers' own teachers and the

healers' own doctors... Or, can the answer be restated: the teachers'

students and the healers' patients? Do we always know who is the

teacher and who is the student?

 

> Teachers of any validity in any tradition known to me don't create

> this condition. The life circumstances or karma of the novice

student has

> already created this condition.

 

 

Can it be that the karma of the novice may also be a gift to the

teacher? Is there not an interconnectedness that is bigger than what

is seen with our pretty brown or blue or green eyes? Bigger than what

is known with our "reason?"

 

I am just a bear of little brain, but many questions?

[Guest guest]

Well, some of you guys know that I have been a guru... So who do you think

learned the most from the "devotees"? Why do you think I felt like having to

change the dynamics?

 

Wim

 

 

know_mystery [know_mystery]

Thursday, September 12, 2002 6:09 AM

Re: How the taught feel inadequate.

 

 

, EBlackstead@c... wrote:

><snip>...

> First to Wim-ji, Wim I don't think you've got it this time. People

come to a

> spiritual teacher for no other reason than that they are already

steeped in a

> feeling of inadequacy, or more appropriately, a conscious

knowledge of

> their inability to find personal satisfaction or a meaningful

approach to the

> truth.

 

 

Hmmm. Maybe not so fast Grasshopper? When you say 'for no other

reason' is there an implication of "reason" = "logically reducible

cause and effect?" Some "students" may have been presented to

some "teachers" in order that the teachers may learn yet further...

Not that either party is aware of this, especially at first and maybe

not ever... Who teaches the teachers? Who heals the healers? Maybe

the answers to this question are: the teachers' own teachers and the

healers' own doctors... Or, can the answer be restated: the teachers'

students and the healers' patients? Do we always know who is the

teacher and who is the student?

 

> Teachers of any validity in any tradition known to me don't create

> this condition. The life circumstances or karma of the novice

student has

> already created this condition.

 

 

Can it be that the karma of the novice may also be a gift to the

teacher? Is there not an interconnectedness that is bigger than what

is seen with our pretty brown or blue or green eyes? Bigger than what

is known with our "reason?"

 

I am just a bear of little brain, but many questions?

 

 

 

 

 

/join

 

 

 

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Eric,

 

My original remarks about the "teacher" was archetypal. So were my remarks

about the "student".

 

But the idea of archetypes is all fine and dandy but it is about "type"

only, and "type" is not about original reality. Reality, truth and love are

all prior to the archetypical.

If had more time I would explain how it all started, the student teacher

thing. Remember to Mazie I wrote about the root meaning of the word

student...

The very human "student / teacher" relationship is not a natural

relationship, it is a relationship of repair... and although repair or

reconstruction is immensely important, we do not have to glorify that

function. (Just like kundalini, it may be wonderful as a reintegration

mechanism, but once re-integrated the kundalini process goes.)

The function of "teacher / student relationship" was originally caused by a

dys-function and this dys-function was caused by an accidental disruption of

the natural flow of things. Which of course had to happen, the inevitability

of statistical occurrences of disruptions is well understood and appreciated

by me, it is also what nature is about. But to see the teacher / student

relationship as a primary thing and glorify it, that is flawed... it is only

secondary... It is nothing too holy to treat it as sacrosanct. We have to

see that such relationship comes from a fallacious understanding of the laws

of nature... (I have found that moment in paleo-language, the moment the

lover accidentally became a disrupter, the moment also that the lover became

the reparator.., but that only happened after that was accidentally brought

about.)

Now to bring this to a fuller understanding, a "teacher" may temporarily

step in by being created out of the situation, but just to repair. When the

situation is over, the teacher has to return to his or her natural function

of "lover / beloved", not remaining the teacher.

"Lover / beloved" is a primary natural relationship, "teacher / student " is

not, "teacher / devotee" is even less (it is even the wrong mix of words).

Such secondary relationships are only temporary patch-ups that eventually

have to go.

Sure, certain individuals may temporarily and for an extended period of time

stay in the role of teacher... but "a role only" it is... Being lover /

beloved never is a role. The "student / teacher" relationship has to be

individualized, one on one, from anonymity within smaller or larger groups

to individual intimacy, literally one student at a time. Then the unequal

relationship gets to be undone so that the "lover / beloved" relationship of

equanimity and equality emerges again... The neat thing is that in such

relationship equality increases so that the "role of primary importance" of

the "beloved" diminishes and equal love is felt from all and given to all...

In unconditional love there is no separate supreme being... This, by the

way, is what the Buddha "taught".

 

Eric, you wrote:

>>>My great doubts these days have to do with Jerry and his relationship to

doughnuts, and so far, no teacher has stepped forward to clear the way.<<<

 

:-)))

 

May I step forward, :-)

We have to make it a point that Jerry sees that he should replace donuts

with the real thing. And impressed by the fact that you seem to take his

relationship to donuts so personal, I recommend that you and Jerry should

have a romantic "tete a tete", maybe even eating donuts together. But Jerry

has to see that the donuts are to celebrate your relationship, that they

should not take the place of the relationship.

I hope that my temporary role as a teacher is now over, so now the two of

you... get dancing... (better to do that though, before eating the donuts...

they taste better after.)

 

Love you both equally... :-)

 

Wim

(When you put the dough back into the hole you ain't got no donut.)

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[Guest guest]

Hi know_mystery,

 

You were the one who sent this comet picture to Kheyala (Black Dakini)

right?

That was neat, what's the history behind that name?

You wrote:

>I am just a bear of little brain, but many questions?

 

I have a question too, what's your name ?:-)

(other then that you are no_mystery )

 

Wim

 

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[Guest guest]

Wim-ji & Friends,

 

Wim, Jerry and I have been dancing since pre-eternity. It's the

donuts that I have a problem with.

 

As to the other issues you mention, I disagree with so much of what

you've said that we'd have to cut it back to some manageable level of

disagreement before I could go forward.

 

Trusting that I can leave this job to you, I remain,

 

yours in the bonds,

eric

 

 

 

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> Hi Eric,

>

> My original remarks about the "teacher" was archetypal. So were my

remarks

> about the "student".

>

> But the idea of archetypes is all fine and dandy but it is

about "type"

> only, and "type" is not about original reality. Reality, truth and

love are

> all prior to the archetypical.

> If had more time I would explain how it all started, the student

teacher

> thing. Remember to Mazie I wrote about the root meaning of the word

> student...

> The very human "student / teacher" relationship is not a natural

> relationship, it is a relationship of repair... and although repair

or

> reconstruction is immensely important, we do not have to glorify

that

> function. (Just like kundalini, it may be wonderful as a

reintegration

> mechanism, but once re-integrated the kundalini process goes.)

> The function of "teacher / student relationship" was originally

caused by a

> dys-function and this dys-function was caused by an accidental

disruption of

> the natural flow of things. Which of course had to happen, the

inevitability

> of statistical occurrences of disruptions is well understood and

appreciated

> by me, it is also what nature is about. But to see the teacher /

student

> relationship as a primary thing and glorify it, that is flawed...

it is only

> secondary... It is nothing too holy to treat it as sacrosanct. We

have to

> see that such relationship comes from a fallacious understanding of

the laws

> of nature... (I have found that moment in paleo-language, the

moment the

> lover accidentally became a disrupter, the moment also that the

lover became

> the reparator.., but that only happened after that was accidentally

brought

> about.)

> Now to bring this to a fuller understanding, a "teacher" may

temporarily

> step in by being created out of the situation, but just to repair.

When the

> situation is over, the teacher has to return to his or her natural

function

> of "lover / beloved", not remaining the teacher.

> "Lover / beloved" is a primary natural relationship, "teacher /

student " is

> not, "teacher / devotee" is even less (it is even the wrong mix of

words).

> Such secondary relationships are only temporary patch-ups that

eventually

> have to go.

> Sure, certain individuals may temporarily and for an extended

period of time

> stay in the role of teacher... but "a role only" it is... Being

lover /

> beloved never is a role. The "student / teacher" relationship has

to be

> individualized, one on one, from anonymity within smaller or larger

groups

> to individual intimacy, literally one student at a time. Then the

unequal

> relationship gets to be undone so that the "lover / beloved"

relationship of

> equanimity and equality emerges again... The neat thing is that in

such

> relationship equality increases so that the "role of primary

importance" of

> the "beloved" diminishes and equal love is felt from all and given

to all...

> In unconditional love there is no separate supreme being... This,

by the

> way, is what the Buddha "taught".

>

> Eric, you wrote:

> >>>My great doubts these days have to do with Jerry and his

relationship to

> doughnuts, and so far, no teacher has stepped forward to clear the

way.<<<

>

> :-)))

>

> May I step forward, :-)

> We have to make it a point that Jerry sees that he should replace

donuts

> with the real thing. And impressed by the fact that you seem to

take his

> relationship to donuts so personal, I recommend that you and Jerry

should

> have a romantic "tete a tete", maybe even eating donuts together.

But Jerry

> has to see that the donuts are to celebrate your relationship,

that they

> should not take the place of the relationship.

> I hope that my temporary role as a teacher is now over, so now the

two of

> you... get dancing... (better to do that though, before eating the

donuts...

> they taste better after.)

>

> Love you both equally... :-)

>

> Wim

> (When you put the dough back into the hole you ain't got no donut.)

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002

[Guest guest]

My great doubts these days have to do with Jerry and his relationship

to doughnuts, and so far, no teacher has stepped forward to clear the

way.yours in the bonds,eric

Dear Eric B,

Your question can be somewhat answered by entering donut into the search engine

on NDS, tho the earliest highlight reference here is very likely not the first time Jerry

mentioned his Beloved, the Krispy Kreme donut.

JERRY KATZI was at a party in Los Angeles and a woman asked me

whatnonduality was. I said it meant that all is God orConsciousness.

She said, 'Well I could argue that vehemently.'She proceeded to tell

me about the God of Abraham and the Truthas she knew it and as it

could only be. Then she tore a depositslip out of her check book,

pointed to the address printed onit, and demanded I come to her house

for dinner. I envisionedmyself listening to her and then, about half

way throughdessert, asking, Who is it that put forth these beliefs

for thelast hour? I lied and told her I was busy and never went to

thedinner. I went to Krispie Kreme donuts instead. They

weremiraculously warm, light, soft. One doesn't eat a Krispie

Kreme.One merges with it.

http://www.nonduality.com/hl657.htm

However, another theory is that Jerry is simply another in the lineage of Nisargadatta, whose

teaching on the donut as a symbol of the ultimate is well known. There is even a photo

of Maharaj holding a donut in the archives.

“Do you know what I mean by peace?” he asked. “When you put a donut

in boiling water, a lot of bubbles will come out until all of the

moisture in the donut is gone. It also makes a lot of noise, doesn’t

it? Finally, all is silent and the donut is ready. The silent

condition of mind which comes about through a life of meditation is

called peace. Meditation is like boiling the oil. It will make

everything in the mind come out. Only then will peace be achieved.”

This was a very graphic and precise explanation of spiritual life if I

had ever heard one!http://www.nonduality.com/hl1075.htm

My next suggestion is that you simply ask Jerry.Not a teacher, just a researcher,

Glo

[Guest guest]

I love (smiling) the way you say this, Eric:

>>> I disagree with so much of what you've said that we'd have to cut it

back to some manageable level of

disagreement before I could go forward. Trusting that I can leave this job

to you, I remain,<<<

 

Yes, we have to really figure out where and when the crack first appeared...

I bet you, that is where your initial and "grand" disagreement lies...

Well, Eric we can work together on this... Maybe you can find that grand

disagreement and we will take it from there...

 

Wim

 

PS

Repair and reconstruction is what I am into at the moment (on the house), so

this also (although of a less material kind) is right up my alley...

 

 

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[Guest guest]

on 9/12/02 3:08 AM, know_mystery at know_mystery wrote:

> , EBlackstead@c... wrote:

>> <snip>...

>> First to Wim-ji, Wim I don't think you've got it this time. People

> come to a

>> spiritual teacher for no other reason than that they are already

> steeped in a

>> feeling of inadequacy, or more appropriately, a conscious

> knowledge of

>> their inability to find personal satisfaction or a meaningful

> approach to the

>> truth.

>

>

> Hmmm. Maybe not so fast Grasshopper? When you say 'for no other

> reason' is there an implication of "reason" = "logically reducible

> cause and effect?" Some "students" may have been presented to

> some "teachers" in order that the teachers may learn yet further...

> Not that either party is aware of this, especially at first and maybe

> not ever... Who teaches the teachers? Who heals the healers? Maybe

> the answers to this question are: the teachers' own teachers and the

> healers' own doctors... Or, can the answer be restated: the teachers'

> students and the healers' patients? Do we always know who is the

> teacher and who is the student?

>

>

>> Teachers of any validity in any tradition known to me don't create

>> this condition. The life circumstances or karma of the novice

> student has

>> already created this condition.

>

>

> Can it be that the karma of the novice may also be a gift to the

> teacher? Is there not an interconnectedness that is bigger than what

> is seen with our pretty brown or blue or green eyes? Bigger than what

> is known with our "reason?"

>

> I am just a bear of little brain, but many questions?

>

 

 

 

AHhhhh! The chicken or the egg, grasshopper? If you ask me, I'll have to say

the rooster comes (sp) first.

 

Shawn

[Guest guest]

Hi Gloria,

Thanks Gloria for Jerry's donut references.

Hmmm...? You know what Gloria, Jerry Katz has, as far as I know, never

ever responded to any of my posts... He must be biting too much into

the "void" of his donut vacuoles. To attain peace and his comparison

to the donut boiling technique (or practice) to attain that peace

failed to make one hole disappear... the hole in the centre... I

think he has to do more cooking... or...

To make the air bubbles and the centre hole disappear one can also

just simply eat the donut... No technique needed. It is the same with

peace... eat the whole donut and be done with the (w)hole...

You may want to know that donuts are nothing else but a later variant

of an original Dutch treat called "Oliebollen"

Here is some semi-official history:

http://www.elliskaiser.com/doughnuts/history.html

The story is a bit older actually, in 1809 in the States, some

cheapskate and calculating Pennsylvania Dutch punched out the centers

from their "Oliebollen" (balls of dough deep-fried in oil), proceeded

to sell the hole-y oily things to any nut who would pay more for them

and then sold the donut holes at give-away prices (Yes sure, if you

know the meaning of a Dutch Treat :-) to those who could not afford

the more expensive donuts. This made those pious Dutch feel that they

had done some good works for their poorer neighbours. and figured that

therefore they would land in a higher region of heaven... Donut

Heaven...

http://www.krispykreme.com/

Wim

(Yours in one)

PS

Hole in one

one hole

one whole

a hole in hell

this hell hole

Actually and seriously :-) the words hell, hole and cell are related,

they derive from the Sanskrit roots KAL and HAL (which could mean

hiding as well as speeding.)

Someone who was hell-bound may well have meant someone who was running for cover.

[Guest guest]

The oliebollen are not so big are they ? It guess they could be the

center of the donut coming into existence on the other side of the

planet. What is the original reason for this massive boiling in

december?

Alan

-

Wim Borsboom

Thursday, September 12, 2002 10:18 PM

RE: How the taught feel inadequate.

Hi Gloria,

Thanks Gloria for Jerry's donut references.

Hmmm...? You know what Gloria, Jerry Katz has, as far as I know, never

ever responded to any of my posts... He must be biting too much into

the "void" of his donut vacuoles. To attain peace and his comparison

to the donut boiling technique (or practice) to attain that peace

failed to make one hole disappear... the hole in the centre... I

think he has to do more cooking... or...

To make the air bubbles and the centre hole disappear one can also

just simply eat the donut... No technique needed. It is the same with

peace... eat the whole donut and be done with the (w)hole...

You may want to know that donuts are nothing else but a later variant

of an original Dutch treat called "Oliebollen"

Here is some semi-official history:

http://www.elliskaiser.com/doughnuts/history.html

The story is a bit older actually, in 1809 in the States, some

cheapskate and calculating Pennsylvania Dutch punched out the centers

from their "Oliebollen" (balls of dough deep-fried in oil), proceeded

to sell the hole-y oily things to any nut who would pay more for them

and then sold the donut holes at give-away prices (Yes sure, if you

know the meaning of a Dutch Treat :-) to those who could not afford

the more expensive donuts. This made those pious Dutch feel that they

had done some good works for their poorer neighbours. and figured that

therefore they would land in a higher region of heaven... Donut

Heaven...

http://www.krispykreme.com/

Wim

(Yours in one)

PS

Hole in one

one hole

one whole

a hole in hell

this hell hole

Actually and seriously :-) the words hell, hole and cell are related,

they derive from the Sanskrit roots KAL and HAL (which could mean

hiding as well as speeding.)

Someone who was hell-bound may well have meant someone who was running

for

cover./join

All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to the

[Guest guest]

Hi Allan,

Do they do "oliebollen" in your country as well, Norway wasn't it?

I have a hunch that it was something that was brought home by the

"Golden Century" explorers (pirates really) from the middle East

together with tulip bulbs. Not joking...

There was even a stock market in bulbs, and... how do you call that

stock market gambling... oh yes speculation... Trust the Dutch to

turn anything into gold..., you know that Shell oil is a Dutch

company with most shares held by Dutch Royalty. It is all tied

together... cinnamon, cocoa, white powdered sugar... olie bollen.

Wim

Al Larus

[alarus (AT) online (DOT) no]Thursday, September 12, 2002 1:56

PMSubject: Re: How

the taught feel inadequate.

The oliebollen are not so big are they ? It guess they could be the

center of the donut coming into existence on the other side of the

planet. What is the original reason for this massive boiling in

december?

Alan

-

Wim Borsboom

Thursday, September 12, 2002 10:18 PM

RE: How the taught feel inadequate.

Hi Gloria,

Thanks Gloria for Jerry's donut references.

Hmmm...? You know what Gloria, Jerry Katz has, as far as I know, never

ever responded to any of my posts... He must be biting too much into

the "void" of his donut vacuoles. To attain peace and his comparison

to the donut boiling technique (or practice) to attain that peace

failed to make one hole disappear... the hole in the centre... I

think he has to do more cooking... or...

To make the air bubbles and the centre hole disappear one can also

just simply eat the donut... No technique needed. It is the same with

peace... eat the whole donut and be done with the (w)hole...

You may want to know that donuts are nothing else but a later variant

of an original Dutch treat called "Oliebollen"

Here is some semi-official history:

http://www.elliskaiser.com/doughnuts/history.html

The story is a bit older actually, in 1809 in the States, some

cheapskate and calculating Pennsylvania Dutch punched out the centers

from their "Oliebollen" (balls of dough deep-fried in oil), proceeded

to sell the hole-y oily things to any nut who would pay more for them

and then sold the donut holes at give-away prices (Yes sure, if you

know the meaning of a Dutch Treat :-) to those who could not afford

the more expensive donuts. This made those pious Dutch feel that they

had done some good works for their poorer neighbours. and figured that

therefore they would land in a higher region of heaven... Donut

Heaven...

http://www.krispykreme.com/

Wim

(Yours in one)

PS

Hole in one

one hole

one whole

a hole in hell

this hell hole

Actually and seriously :-) the words hell, hole and cell are related,

they derive from the Sanskrit roots KAL and HAL (which could mean

hiding as well as speeding.)

Someone who was hell-bound may well have meant someone who was running

for

cover./join

All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to the

/join

All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to the

[Guest guest]

Does the student create?

Does the teacher create?

 

There is only one doer,

perhaps you have heard –

 

Ho my brave ducks and

Dear ducklings –

 

Infinity is doing Itself

as we speak, right now

and forever and ever!

 

This understanding can

liberate us

from the bardos of

judgments, beliefs and

tall tales about everyone

everywhere

always.

 

Everything's teaching

Itself to be taught

in accepting itself

as it is, or

not.

 

 

Ixnay, from Her Book of Daisy Wisdom

[Guest guest]

Dear Glo,

 

Even though I'm an obvious fan of Shri Nisargadatta, I find myself

impelled to ask you: Who wants a donut without it's moisture?

 

Is this what Ramakrishna mean't when he often refered to Jnanis

as "dry"?

 

Love,

eric

 

, "Gloria Lee" <glee@c...> wrote:

>

> My great doubts these days have to do with Jerry and his

relationship to

> doughnuts, and so far, no teacher has stepped forward to clear the

way.

>

> yours in the bonds,

> eric

>

>

> Dear Eric B,

>

> Your question can be somewhat answered by entering donut into the

search engine

> on NDS, tho the earliest highlight reference here is very likely

not the first time Jerry

> mentioned his Beloved, the Krispy Kreme donut.

>

> JERRY KATZ

>

> I was at a party in Los Angeles and a woman asked me what

> nonduality was. I said it meant that all is God or

> Consciousness. She said, 'Well I could argue that vehemently.'

> She proceeded to tell me about the God of Abraham and the Truth

> as she knew it and as it could only be. Then she tore a deposit

> slip out of her check book, pointed to the address printed on

> it, and demanded I come to her house for dinner. I envisioned

> myself listening to her and then, about half way through

> dessert, asking, Who is it that put forth these beliefs for the

> last hour? I lied and told her I was busy and never went to the

> dinner. I went to Krispie Kreme donuts instead. They were

> miraculously warm, light, soft. One doesn't eat a Krispie Kreme.

> One merges with it.

> http://www.nonduality.com/hl657.htm

>

> However, another theory is that Jerry is simply another in the

lineage of Nisargadatta, whose

> teaching on the donut as a symbol of the ultimate is well known.

There is even a photo

> of Maharaj holding a donut in the archives.

>

> "Do you know what I mean by peace?" he asked. "When you put a

donut in boiling water, a lot of bubbles will come out until all of

the moisture in the donut is gone. It also makes a lot of noise,

doesn't it? Finally, all is silent and the donut is ready. The

silent condition of mind which comes about through a life of

meditation is called peace. Meditation is like boiling the oil. It

will make everything in the mind come out. Only then will peace be

achieved." This was a very graphic and precise explanation of

spiritual life if I had ever heard one!

> http://www.nonduality.com/hl1075.htm

>

> My next suggestion is that you simply ask Jerry.

> Not a teacher, just a researcher,

> Glo

[Guest guest]

Wim-ji & Friends,

 

It's a deal, Wim-ji. But it'll have to wait for awhile as I'm not in

my "grand disagreement" mode.

 

yours in the bonds,

eric

 

 

 

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

> I love (smiling) the way you say this, Eric:

>

> >>> I disagree with so much of what you've said that we'd have to

cut it

> back to some manageable level of

> disagreement before I could go forward. Trusting that I can leave

this job

> to you, I remain,<<<

>

> Yes, we have to really figure out where and when the crack first

appeared...

> I bet you, that is where your initial and "grand" disagreement

lies...

> Well, Eric we can work together on this... Maybe you can find that

grand

> disagreement and we will take it from there...

>

> Wim

>

> PS

> Repair and reconstruction is what I am into at the moment (on the

house), so

> this also (although of a less material kind) is right up my alley...

>

>

> ---

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[Guest guest]

Shawn & Friends,

 

Dear Shawn, we aren't talking about "chickens or eggs", so why don't

we just leave them out of it?

 

You seem to be refering to a Teacher who still has something to

learn. fair enough. I'm refering to a Guru, who by definition,

doesn't have anything more, at least in the "larger" sense, to learn.

That's what we are refering to here, when we use terms

like "realized" or "enlightened".

 

Capiche, Grasshopper?

 

yours in the bonds,

eric

 

 

 

, shawn <shawn@w...> wrote:

> on 9/12/02 3:08 AM, know_mystery at know_mystery wrote:

>

> > , EBlackstead@c... wrote:

> >> <snip>...

> >> First to Wim-ji, Wim I don't think you've got it this time.

People

> > come to a

> >> spiritual teacher for no other reason than that they are already

> > steeped in a

> >> feeling of inadequacy, or more appropriately, a conscious

> > knowledge of

> >> their inability to find personal satisfaction or a meaningful

> > approach to the

> >> truth.

> >

> >

> > Hmmm. Maybe not so fast Grasshopper? When you say 'for no other

> > reason' is there an implication of "reason" = "logically reducible

> > cause and effect?" Some "students" may have been presented to

> > some "teachers" in order that the teachers may learn yet

further...

> > Not that either party is aware of this, especially at first and

maybe

> > not ever... Who teaches the teachers? Who heals the healers? Maybe

> > the answers to this question are: the teachers' own teachers and

the

> > healers' own doctors... Or, can the answer be restated: the

teachers'

> > students and the healers' patients? Do we always know who is the

> > teacher and who is the student?

> >

> >

> >> Teachers of any validity in any tradition known to me don't

create

> >> this condition. The life circumstances or karma of the novice

> > student has

> >> already created this condition.

> >

> >

> > Can it be that the karma of the novice may also be a gift to the

> > teacher? Is there not an interconnectedness that is bigger than

what

> > is seen with our pretty brown or blue or green eyes? Bigger than

what

> > is known with our "reason?"

> >

> > I am just a bear of little brain, but many questions?

> >

>

>

>

> AHhhhh! The chicken or the egg, grasshopper? If you ask me, I'll

have to say

> the rooster comes (sp) first.

>

> Shawn

[Guest guest]

Perhaps only the gurus, themselves, can adequately respond to this?

So, perhaps we should let the gurus answer: Do you continue to learn?

 

A humble Grasshopper, myself,

Know_Mystery

 

PS - I am of the opinion that gurus "learn" in many ways, despite

being enlightened and realized, so perhaps the discussion hinges on

semantics yet again, in the sense of what one means by "learning" or

your expression, below, of what you mean by "in the 'larger' sense."

 

 

 

, "eblack101" <EBlackstead@c...> wrote:

> Shawn & Friends,

>

> Dear Shawn, we aren't talking about "chickens or eggs", so why

don't

> we just leave them out of it?

>

> You seem to be refering to a Teacher who still has something to

> learn. fair enough. I'm refering to a Guru, who by definition,

> doesn't have anything more, at least in the "larger" sense, to

learn.

> That's what we are refering to here, when we use terms

> like "realized" or "enlightened".

>

> Capiche, Grasshopper?

>

> yours in the bonds,

> eric

>

>

>

> , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote:

> > on 9/12/02 3:08 AM, know_mystery at know_mystery wrote:

> >

> > > , EBlackstead@c... wrote:

> > >> <snip>...

> > >> First to Wim-ji, Wim I don't think you've got it this time.

> People

> > > come to a

> > >> spiritual teacher for no other reason than that they are

already

> > > steeped in a

> > >> feeling of inadequacy, or more appropriately, a conscious

> > > knowledge of

> > >> their inability to find personal satisfaction or a meaningful

> > > approach to the

> > >> truth.

> > >

> > >

> > > Hmmm. Maybe not so fast Grasshopper? When you say 'for no other

> > > reason' is there an implication of "reason" = "logically

reducible

> > > cause and effect?" Some "students" may have been presented to

> > > some "teachers" in order that the teachers may learn yet

> further...

> > > Not that either party is aware of this, especially at first and

> maybe

> > > not ever... Who teaches the teachers? Who heals the healers?

Maybe

> > > the answers to this question are: the teachers' own teachers

and

> the

> > > healers' own doctors... Or, can the answer be restated: the

> teachers'

> > > students and the healers' patients? Do we always know who is the

> > > teacher and who is the student?

> > >

> > >

> > >> Teachers of any validity in any tradition known to me don't

> create

> > >> this condition. The life circumstances or karma of the novice

> > > student has

> > >> already created this condition.

> > >

> > >

> > > Can it be that the karma of the novice may also be a gift to the

> > > teacher? Is there not an interconnectedness that is bigger than

> what

> > > is seen with our pretty brown or blue or green eyes? Bigger

than

> what

> > > is known with our "reason?"

> > >

> > > I am just a bear of little brain, but many questions?

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > AHhhhh! The chicken or the egg, grasshopper? If you ask me, I'll

> have to say

> > the rooster comes (sp) first.

> >

> > Shawn

[Guest guest]

, "eblack101" <EBlackstead@c...> wrote:

 

I'm refering to a Guru, who by definition,

doesn't have anything more, at least in the "larger" sense, to learn.

That's what we are refering to here, when we use terms

like "realized" or "enlightened".

 

 

))) If the Formless has nothing more to learn,

why does it perpetually manifest as

form?

 

 

"Even Shakyamuni was only half-way to the goal."

 

~ Dogen Zenji

 

 

 

"There is no enlightened person,

there is only enlightened activity."

 

~ Moo Shoo

 

 

 

LoveAlways,

 

b

[Guest guest]

Hi Know_Mystery, Bobby, Eric, Robert, Shawn and all,

 

All gurus are enlightened (we hope :-) but not necessarily fully realized,

total realization taking place within final (?) Samadhi...

Some of you know how I distinguish enlightenment from realization. To say it

simply: enlightenment is the process of seeing the truth - knowing it;

realization is the transformation of that into integrative reality. I use

the word "realize" in the meaning of "realizing one's dreams", or "having a

plan take shape in reality".

 

Compare this distinction to a seed that may "know" in its seed state what it

will look like in its flower state. Enlightenment is like that knowing, the

actual growing into that flower is the realization process.

That realization process is a non-linear sequence of going from one state of

perfection to the next... With flowers there may be an end to it or a repeat

process; with humans ... well what do we know...?!

 

Just keep on realizing...

 

Wim

 

---

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[Guest guest]

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

 

Dearest Wimji,

 

God is Gracious Beloved friend.

 

You say it so well and it is so, is it not?

It's so fun swimming in the OneSea with Sweet Wimji...

See! i've been listening to Love, to the Heart.

The Undertow takes away the one who would think

they are ever anything but Love.

You're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind...

Hey Wimji!

Hey Wimji!

Hey -

Beaming Hiya to Wimji!

 

LoveAlways,

 

Mazie

 

> Hi Know_Mystery, Bobby, Eric, Robert, Shawn and all,

>

> All gurus are enlightened (we hope :-) but not necessarily fully

realized,

> total realization taking place within final (?) Samadhi...

> Some of you know how I distinguish enlightenment from realization.

To say it

> simply: enlightenment is the process of seeing the truth - knowing

it;

> realization is the transformation of that into integrative reality.

I use

> the word "realize" in the meaning of "realizing one's dreams",

or "having a

> plan take shape in reality".

>

> Compare this distinction to a seed that may "know" in its seed

state what it

> will look like in its flower state. Enlightenment is like that

knowing, the

> actual growing into that flower is the realization process.

> That realization process is a non-linear sequence of going from one

state of

> perfection to the next... With flowers there may be an end to it or

a repeat

> process; with humans ... well what do we know...?!

>

> Just keep on realizing...

>

> Wim

>

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002