Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Sung to the tune of "Henry the Eighth" by Herman's Hermits: Forty-first verse same as the first – I'm the Transcendental Self I Am, The Transcendental Self I Am, I Am; I'm manifesting here once more, Just like every no-time before; And everyone is in Turiya – What isn't simply isn't Is it not? I'm the same Big Self for Eternity, Eternally the Self I Am I Am, Eternally the Self I Am! :-)) LoveAlways, b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 >Reality in Forty Verses )))) Thanks, Gabe -- i guess the forty-first is up to us. :-)) ------------- >the Forty verse ends thus: "Liberation is the extinciton of the ego which enquires - 'With form, without form, or with-and-without form'?" Now you can make the 41th. LOL - What would you say?--- ))) LoveAlways, b - Sung to the tune of "Henry the Eighth" by Herman's Hermits: Forty-first verse same as the first – I'm the Transcendental Self I Am, The Transcendental Self I Am, I Am; I'm manifesting here once more, Just like every no-time before; And everyone is in Turiya – What isn't simply isn't Is it not? I'm the same Big Self for Eternity, Eternally the Self I Am I Am, Eternally the Self I Am! :-)) LoveAlways, b ---------------------------- Dear Robert: I can't understand the reason for this exchange and I am curious. Reality in Forty Verses is a sincere contribution to the lives of so many people. Would you mind explaining why you are responding as you are. I am not offended in any way just curious. It seems you are saying at first that we are to live and discard ideas. Then the allusion to Hermans Hermits makes fun of "Forty Verses", if not in the words then in the tune. I read the posts here as being from people who have something to say that I have come to learn is uplifting to me. Throw me a bone. How did you feel about the excerpt? Did you really think it was lacking and needed an addition by you? Bobby G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: Dear Robert: I can't understand the reason for this exchange and I am curious. Reality in Forty Verses is a sincere contribution to the lives of so many people. Would you mind explaining why you are responding as you are. I am not offended in any way just curious. It seems you are saying at first that we are to live and discard ideas. Then the allusion to Hermans Hermits makes fun of "Forty Verses", if not in the words then in the tune. I read the posts here as being from people who have something to say that I have come to learn is uplifting to me. Throw me a bone. How did you feel about the excerpt? Did you really think it was lacking and needed an addition by you? Bobby G )))) Dear Bobby, I have nothing to say that can uplift a single thing, since I have no illusion that a single thing exists. Hence, I spend this time, such as it is, in utter foolishness. You are not a dog, you need no bone. Whatever is lacking is simply a trick of imagination. I have stood here, my chest torn open for the months since I have been in this playground, completely aware that not one thing I have ever said has been heard, and so I join with Herman in a jolly tune, and smile at the seriousness with which Ramana is approached, as if there was something he has been saying that is not the most obvious truth of our own existence. "We think that there is something hiding our reality and that it must be destroyed before the reality is gained. It is ridiculous. A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your past efforts. That which will be on the day you laugh is also here and now." You see, Dear Bobby, what he says is actually true! That day that you are spending all your effort in getting to is already here now, it has always been, but still you doubt, and continue to believe in all seriousness that your efforts to manipulate yourself into something that you believe you should become will eventually bear some fruit. It will not. You are a fiction of your own thoughts, which are nothing but a random modification of consciousness itself, which in turn is nothing but the Play of a Mystery that mind can never comprehend. Give up the struggle -- it is not hard to do! We're all in the same boat, adrift on the bosom of the Great One. We can love beyond reason, or we can flouder around in futile attempts to make some sense out of it, until Love itself takes us down into its very depths, and then there is nothing that can be said about this Grace, and there we meet Ramana, and Nisargadatta, and Nityananda, and Rumi, and Hafiz, and recognize them as nothing but own True Nature, which is unspeakable, and so we hum Herman's Hermits' ditties, and little poems about plum trees, and tears, and laughter. Hey Bobby, it's Friday night -- have a glass of wine, make love to your wife, and praise the One Who is painting you into Bobby-ness right now. God Is Gracious! LoveAlways, b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > >Reality in Forty Verses > )))) Thanks, Gabe -- i guess the forty-first is up to us. :-)) ------------- >the Forty verse ends thus: "Liberation is the extinciton of the ego which enquires - 'With form, without form, or with-and-without form'?" Now you can make the 41th. LOL - What would you say?--- ))) LoveAlways, b - > Sung to the tune of "Henry the Eighth" by Herman's Hermits: > Dear Robert: I can't understand the reason for this exchange and I am curious. Reality in Forty Verses is a sincere contribution to the lives of so many people. Would you mind explaining why you are responding as you are. I am not offended in any way just curious. It seems you are saying at first that we are to live and discard ideas. Then the allusion to Hermans Hermits makes fun of "Forty Verses", if not in the words then in the tune. I read the posts here as being from people who have something to say that I have come to learn is uplifting to me. Throw me a bone. How did you feel about the excerpt? Did you really think it was lacking and needed an addition by you? > Bobby G Dearest Bobby, Knowing Robert as i do, and hoping you won't mind my cutting into the Dance, might i give you my take on the things you ask here? Why must one need a reason to break into song and dance? That's the beauty, it has no reason, no rhyme, nothing that wants anything than to just be what is. Bliss breaks into blossom whether Robert wants it or not. He writes not to add or detract but because he has no choice. Joy rises and Love splits open the Heart, breaks down every barrier of self-consciousness and just starts Singing. The poet and ecstatic who have nothing to do with this are simply lost in the moment of being nothing other than Love. That's all that it is. What else is there and what else could ever be? What he seeks to express, what is expressing as him... as to Robert - uplifting? If you could imagine the grace of being in such close proximity. There is only Love. Only Love. LoveAlways, Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Dear Bobby, dear Robert, yes, the Forty Verses are a very deep spriritual text and give the teaching about atmavichara, self inquiry. They contain the highest teaching of the Maharshi together with the supplement of again Forty Verses. I will post out more of it in the next days. They are not always easy to understand - without own practice in atmavichara they can't be understood in depth. Ramana's teaching has much depth and to find out for oneself this truth is a real journey in the Self. This is then "the 41st verse" - our own diving in the Self. In Sri Ramana Gabriele > > Dear Robert: > > I can't understand the reason for this exchange and I am curious. > Reality in Forty Verses is a sincere contribution to the lives of so > many people. Would you mind explaining why you are responding as you > are. I am not offended in any way just curious. It seems you are > saying at first that we are to live and discard ideas. Then the > allusion to Hermans Hermits makes fun of "Forty Verses", if not in > the words then in the tune. > > I read the posts here as being from people who have something to say > that I have come to learn is uplifting to me. Throw me a bone. How > did you feel about the excerpt? Did you really think it was lacking > and needed an addition by you? > > Bobby G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 , "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: >This is then "the 41st verse" - our own diving in the Self. In Sri Ramana ))))) Jai Ramana! ))))))))Jai Gabe! )))))))Jai Bobby! )))))))Jai Mazie! )))Jai Everything with a name ending in a vowel! )))))))))) Jai All that never ends! ))) Jai that we can still say Jai! ))) Jai to that which can't! LoveAlways, b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 , "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote: > Sung to the tune of > "Henry the Eighth" > by Herman's Hermits: Hiya b! You just made my day! I found myself singing and smilin' to the Oldie but Goodie now turned 41st Verse. You are one groovy dude. Groovin' along with ya, xxxtg > > > > Forty-first verse > same as the first – > > I'm the Transcendental Self > I Am, > The Transcendental Self > I Am, > I Am; > I'm manifesting here once more, > Just like every no-time before; > And everyone is in Turiya – > What isn't simply isn't > Is it not? > I'm the same Big Self > for Eternity, > Eternally the Self > I Am > I Am, > Eternally the Self > I Am! > > > > :-)) > > > LoveAlways, > > b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 , "teegee555" <Teegee555@a...> wrote: >I found myself singing and smilin' to the Oldie but Goodie now turned 41st Verse. ))))Happiness is our real nature. That happiness does not depend on our possessions or achievements. Existence is the same as happiness and happiness is the same as being. That which is called happiness alone exists. Knowing that fact and abiding in that state of Self enjoy bliss eternally. Perfect bliss is the absolute. Perfect peace is the Self. That alone exists and is consciousness. Self is not other than perfect happiness. That which is called happiness is only the nature of Self. One's own reality, which shines within everyone as the heart is itself the ocean of unalloyed bliss. ~ Ramana LoveAlways, Mazie & b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 , "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote: > , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > > Dear Robert: > > I can't understand the reason for this exchange and I am curious. > Reality in Forty Verses is a sincere contribution to the lives of so > many people. Would you mind explaining why you are responding as you > are. I am not offended in any way just curious. It seems you are > saying at first that we are to live and discard ideas. Then the > allusion to Hermans Hermits makes fun of "Forty Verses", if not in > the words then in the tune. > > I read the posts here as being from people who have something to say > that I have come to learn is uplifting to me. Throw me a bone. How > did you feel about the excerpt? Did you really think it was lacking > and needed an addition by you? > > Bobby G > > > )))) Dear Bobby, > > > I have nothing to say that can uplift a single thing, since I have no > illusion that a single thing exists. Hence, I spend this time, such > as it is, in utter foolishness. You are not a dog, you need no bone. > Whatever is lacking is simply a trick of imagination. I have stood > here, my chest torn open for the months since I have been in this > playground, completely aware that not one thing I have ever said has > been heard, and so I join with Herman in a jolly tune, and smile at > the seriousness with which Ramana is approached, as if there was > something he has been saying that is not the most obvious truth of > our own existence. > > "We think that there is something hiding our > reality and that it must be destroyed before the > reality is gained. It is ridiculous. A day will dawn > when you will yourself laugh at your past efforts. > That which will be on the day you laugh is also > here and now." > > > You see, Dear Bobby, what he says is actually true! That day that you > are spending all your effort in getting to is already here now, it > has always been, but still you doubt, and continue to believe in all > seriousness that your efforts to manipulate yourself into something > that you believe you should become will eventually bear some fruit. > It will not. You are a fiction of your own thoughts, which are > nothing but a random modification of consciousness itself, which in > turn is nothing but the Play of a Mystery that mind can never > comprehend. Give up the struggle -- it is not hard to do! > We're all in the same boat, adrift on the bosom of the Great One. We > can love beyond reason, or we can flouder around in futile attempts > to make some sense out of it, until Love itself takes us down into > its very depths, and then there is nothing that can be said about > this Grace, and there we meet Ramana, and Nisargadatta, and > Nityananda, and Rumi, and Hafiz, and recognize them as nothing but > own True Nature, which is unspeakable, and so we hum Herman's > Hermits' ditties, and little poems about plum trees, and tears, and > laughter. > > Hey Bobby, > it's Friday night -- > have a glass of wine, make love to your wife, and > praise the One Who is painting you into Bobby-ness right now. > > God Is Gracious! > > > LoveAlways, > > b Thanks for the advice b. It is comforting to know you will be there waiting for me. In the meantime my sincerity (not seriousness-but your projection is noted) is not diminished. I would like to say though that the efforts to be something that already is are no different that the efforts to live. Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 > Dearest Bobby, > > Knowing Robert as i do, and hoping you won't mind my cutting into the > Dance, might i give you my take on the things you ask here? > > Why must one need a reason to break into song and dance? That's the > beauty, it has no reason, no rhyme, nothing that wants anything than > to just be what is. Bliss breaks into blossom whether Robert wants it > or not. > > He writes not to add or detract but because he has no choice. Joy > rises and Love splits open the Heart, breaks down every barrier of > self-consciousness and just starts Singing. The poet and ecstatic > who have nothing to do with this are simply lost in the moment of > being nothing other than Love. That's all that it is. What else is > there and what else could ever be? What he seeks to express, what is > expressing as him... as to Robert - uplifting? If you could imagine > the grace of being in such close proximity. There is only Love. Only > Love. > > > LoveAlways, > > Mazie Hi Mazie: I can only believe that my criticisms of Robert will bring out the best in him. i don't believe that tempering ones posts to respect others various tendencies is as difficult as you make it sound. Say what you please and I will too. Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Dear Mazie, Robert and Gabriel Mazie wrote: >>>Why must one need a reason to break into song and dance? That's the beauty, it has no reason, no rhyme, nothing that wants anything than to just be what is. Bliss breaks into blossom whether Robert wants it or not. <<< Sometimes I surprise a sad friend by saying, "You indeed have no reason to be happy..,." The friend then looks at me in great puzzlement and I gently intimate, "...because you don't need a reason to be happy..." You also wrote: >>> ...Joy and Love splits open the Heart, breaks down every barrier of self-consciousness and just starts Singing. The poet and ecstatic who have nothing to do with this are simply lost in the moment of being nothing other than Love. That's all that it is. What else is there and what else could ever be? <<< There is also - indeed - no reason to love because once we retrieve our divine humanity we cannot help but love... Wim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Hi teegee, I wish I knew the tune, I must have been a Trappist monk when that tune was current... so I missed it... Can someone hum it to me... Hey why not you teegee... do you have the equipment? If you have a video cam with a microphone you can make a short email ready video (email attachment) I promise I will attempt to sing it back... Wim teegee555 [Teegee555] Saturday, September 14, 2002 2:55 AM Re: 41st Verse/Alt. Version/Gabe , "hrtbeat7" <hrtbeat7> wrote: > Sung to the tune of > "Henry the Eighth" > by Herman's Hermits: Hiya b! You just made my day! I found myself singing and smilin' to the Oldie but Goodie now turned 41st Verse. You are one groovy dude. Groovin' along with ya, xxxtg > > > > Forty-first verse > same as the first – > > I'm the Transcendental Self > I Am, > The Transcendental Self > I Am, > I Am; > I'm manifesting here once more, > Just like every no-time before; > And everyone is in Turiya – > What isn't simply isn't > Is it not? > I'm the same Big Self > for Eternity, > Eternally the Self > I Am > I Am, > Eternally the Self > I Am! > > > > :-)) > > > LoveAlways, > > b /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Hi Bobby, You wrote: >>>...the efforts to be something that already is are no different than the efforts to live.<<< That is a very strong, true and positive statement. It ties in with what I said about the distinction between enlightenment and realization. Using your words slightly differently, one could say: .. "what we already are" can be seen as the seed stage, the "patterns of what's to come" already laid out in blue print, preview mode so to say, within the seed - the enlightenment stage. .. "the efforts to live" is the dynamic of becoming tangible reality of the flower from the seed - the realization stage. Wim (thank you) -------- >From a previous post: Some of you know how I distinguish enlightenment from realization. To say it simply: enlightenment is the process of seeing the truth - knowing it; realization is the transformation of that into integrative reality. I use the word "realize" in the meaning of "realizing one's dreams", or "having a plan take shape in reality". Compare this distinction to a seed that may "know" in its seed state what it will look like in its flower state. Enlightenment is like that knowing, the actual growing into that flower is the realization process. That realization process is a non-linear sequence of going from one state of perfection to the next... With flowers there may be an end to it or a repeat process; with humans ... well what do we know...?! Just keep on realizing... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Hi Wim: I see what you mean. The idea is clearer now. potential exists as reality too, correct me if I am wrong. A rock on top of a mountain posseses potential energy by its position in relation to its destination at the bottom of the cliff. A blueprint of the possible energy exists even while the rock is still. Love , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Bobby, > > You wrote: > >>>...the efforts to be something that already is are no different than the > efforts to live.<<< > > That is a very strong, true and positive statement. It ties in with what I > said about the distinction between enlightenment and realization. > Using your words slightly differently, one could say: > . "what we already are" can be seen as the seed stage, the "patterns of > what's to come" already laid out in blue print, preview mode so to say, > within the seed - the enlightenment stage. > . "the efforts to live" is the dynamic of becoming tangible reality of the > flower from the seed - the realization stage. > > Wim > (thank you) > -------- > From a previous post: > Some of you know how I distinguish enlightenment from realization. To say it > simply: enlightenment is the process of seeing the truth - knowing it; > realization is the transformation of that into integrative reality. I use > the word "realize" in the meaning of "realizing one's dreams", or "having a > plan take shape in reality". > > Compare this distinction to a seed that may "know" in its seed state what it > will look like in its flower state. Enlightenment is like that knowing, the > actual growing into that flower is the realization process. > That realization process is a non-linear sequence of going from one state of > perfection to the next... With flowers there may be an end to it or a repeat > process; with humans ... well what do we know...?! > > Just keep on realizing... > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Yes Bobby, I know that I promised a few times to write about that special field, the gauge field and that new (still conceptual) particle the dilaton... It is that physical but intangible entity that holds all that info.... It holds the power of all potentialities but in pure energy only... all enfolded in hidden dimensions... Wim. texasbg2000 [bigbobgraham] Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:33 PM Re: 41st Verse/Alt. Version/Gabe Hi Wim: I see what you mean. The idea is clearer now. potential exists as reality too, correct me if I am wrong. A rock on top of a mountain posseses potential energy by its position in relation to its destination at the bottom of the cliff. A blueprint of the possible energy exists even while the rock is still. Love , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Hi Bobby, > > You wrote: > >>>...the efforts to be something that already is are no different than the > efforts to live.<<< > > That is a very strong, true and positive statement. It ties in with what I > said about the distinction between enlightenment and realization. > Using your words slightly differently, one could say: > . "what we already are" can be seen as the seed stage, the "patterns of > what's to come" already laid out in blue print, preview mode so to say, > within the seed - the enlightenment stage. > . "the efforts to live" is the dynamic of becoming tangible reality of the > flower from the seed - the realization stage. > > Wim > (thank you) > -------- > From a previous post: > Some of you know how I distinguish enlightenment from realization. To say it > simply: enlightenment is the process of seeing the truth - knowing it; > realization is the transformation of that into integrative reality. I use > the word "realize" in the meaning of "realizing one's dreams", or "having a > plan take shape in reality". > > Compare this distinction to a seed that may "know" in its seed state what it > will look like in its flower state. Enlightenment is like that knowing, the > actual growing into that flower is the realization process. > That realization process is a non-linear sequence of going from one state of > perfection to the next... With flowers there may be an end to it or a repeat > process; with humans ... well what do we know...?! > > Just keep on realizing... > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 When i first studied Raja Yoga the descriptions of how things are made stuck in my memory. At the bottom of matter is energy. At the bottom of energy is mind. At the bottom of mind is spirit. Mind being the stuff of energy would at least explain how atoms know how to act and where to be. Spirit behind energy would give impetus, in the vitalization definition of spirit, and conclusion by the return of matter to spirit by liberation. Take your time. Love Bobby G. , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Yes Bobby, > > I know that I promised a few times to write about that special field, the > gauge field and that new (still conceptual) particle the dilaton... It is > that physical but intangible entity that holds all that info.... > It holds the power of all potentialities but in pure energy only... all > enfolded in hidden dimensions... > > Wim. > > > > texasbg2000 [bigbobgraham@a...] > Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:33 PM > > Re: 41st Verse/Alt. Version/Gabe > > > Hi Wim: > > I see what you mean. The idea is clearer now. potential exists as > reality too, correct me if I am wrong. A rock on top of a mountain > posseses potential energy by its position in relation to its > destination at the bottom of the cliff. A blueprint of the possible > energy exists even while the rock is still. > > Love > > , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > > Hi Bobby, > > > > You wrote: > > >>>...the efforts to be something that already is are no different > than the > > efforts to live.<<< > > > > That is a very strong, true and positive statement. It ties in with > what I > > said about the distinction between enlightenment and realization. > > Using your words slightly differently, one could say: > > . "what we already are" can be seen as the seed stage, > the "patterns of > > what's to come" already laid out in blue print, preview mode so to > say, > > within the seed - the enlightenment stage. > > . "the efforts to live" is the dynamic of becoming tangible reality > of the > > flower from the seed - the realization stage. > > > > Wim > > (thank you) > > -------- > > From a previous post: > > Some of you know how I distinguish enlightenment from realization. > To say it > > simply: enlightenment is the process of seeing the truth - knowing > it; > > realization is the transformation of that into integrative reality. > I use > > the word "realize" in the meaning of "realizing one's dreams", > or "having a > > plan take shape in reality". > > > > Compare this distinction to a seed that may "know" in its seed > state what it > > will look like in its flower state. Enlightenment is like that > knowing, the > > actual growing into that flower is the realization process. > > That realization process is a non-linear sequence of going from one > state of > > perfection to the next... With flowers there may be an end to it or > a repeat > > process; with humans ... well what do we know...?! > > > > Just keep on realizing... > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Dear Bobby, What I write here are just my freewheeling ruminations loosened up by what you wrote, so do not see it as some kind of criticism on what you wrote. You wrote: > ...return of matter to spirit by liberation. Truly so... as long as the word liberation is understood as "play of and in freedom" rather than a "getting free from some burdensome state". There is nothing the matter with matter, it does not need liberation in that sense. > At the bottom of matter is energy. > At the bottom of energy is mind. > At the bottom of mind is spirit. Using some of your words and the above sequence the other way around: .. spirit does not feel dispirited or degraded during its transformation into mind, .. mind does not mind or feel degraded transforming into energy, .. by the same token, when energy materializes, it does not lose energy and feel degraded, .. also it does not matter to matter, when it returns to spiritual formlessness. There is no sense of de- or up-grading in this natural sequence, as though one level is of a higher qualitative value than another in some kind of moral sense... All this is play, and if we want to really play in freedom (lila) we better not project the denatured human activity of value judgements onto divine nature..., better not to try and bring that into "le milieu divin" (Teilhard de Chardin). It is our beholdenness to that kind of "de-liberation" that obscures our view of freedom... Moksha and Mukti are too often translated as liberation in the sense of emancipation: what we do to free ourselves from restraint, control, bondage or any controlling moral or belief system. Mukti and Moksha ARE the "being in freedom", not the loosening-up activity we employ to return to that freedom of being... Only when moksha is in play will state changes as in the above > marked list be possible. The whole theory of the five aggregates or the five elements hinges on that. If we do not know that, we cannot understand the Heart Sutra of Avalokiteshvara nor appreciate fully the wondrousness of nature. Wim. texasbg2000 [bigbobgraham] Monday, September 16, 2002 12:01 PM Re: 41st Verse/Alt. Version/Gabe When i first studied Raja Yoga the descriptions of how things are made stuck in my memory. At the bottom of matter is energy. At the bottom of energy is mind. At the bottom of mind is spirit. Mind being the stuff of energy would at least explain how atoms know how to act and where to be. Spirit behind energy would give impetus, in the vitalization definition of spirit, and conclusion by the return of matter to spirit by liberation. Take your time. Love Bobby G. , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Yes Bobby, > > I know that I promised a few times to write about that special field, the > gauge field and that new (still conceptual) particle the dilaton... It is > that physical but intangible entity that holds all that info.... > It holds the power of all potentialities but in pure energy only... all > enfolded in hidden dimensions... > > Wim. > > > > texasbg2000 [bigbobgraham@a...] > Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:33 PM > > Re: 41st Verse/Alt. Version/Gabe > > > Hi Wim: > > I see what you mean. The idea is clearer now. potential exists as > reality too, correct me if I am wrong. A rock on top of a mountain > posseses potential energy by its position in relation to its > destination at the bottom of the cliff. A blueprint of the possible > energy exists even while the rock is still. > > Love > > , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > > Hi Bobby, > > > > You wrote: > > >>>...the efforts to be something that already is are no different > than the > > efforts to live.<<< > > > > That is a very strong, true and positive statement. It ties in with > what I > > said about the distinction between enlightenment and realization. > > Using your words slightly differently, one could say: > > . "what we already are" can be seen as the seed stage, > the "patterns of > > what's to come" already laid out in blue print, preview mode so to > say, > > within the seed - the enlightenment stage. > > . "the efforts to live" is the dynamic of becoming tangible reality > of the > > flower from the seed - the realization stage. > > > > Wim > > (thank you) > > -------- > > From a previous post: > > Some of you know how I distinguish enlightenment from realization. > To say it > > simply: enlightenment is the process of seeing the truth - knowing > it; > > realization is the transformation of that into integrative reality. > I use > > the word "realize" in the meaning of "realizing one's dreams", > or "having a > > plan take shape in reality". > > > > Compare this distinction to a seed that may "know" in its seed > state what it > > will look like in its flower state. Enlightenment is like that > knowing, the > > actual growing into that flower is the realization process. > > That realization process is a non-linear sequence of going from one > state of > > perfection to the next... With flowers there may be an end to it or > a repeat > > process; with humans ... well what do we know...?! > > > > Just keep on realizing... > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > Dear Bobby, > > What I write here are just my freewheeling ruminations loosened up by what > you wrote, so do not see it as some kind of criticism on what you wrote. > > You wrote: > > ...return of matter to spirit by liberation. > > Truly so... as long as the word liberation is understood as "play of and in > freedom" rather than a "getting free from some burdensome state". There is > nothing the matter with matter, it does not need liberation in that sense. Dear Wim: The idea of matter returning to spirit refers to the process of rudimentary Life (or sophisticated energy) assembling elements in patterns that reproduce with the blueprint you spoke of before to evolve until the process reaches human life and spirit is realized through matter. Perhaps it is clumsy to say it this way. It is a minor point. Liberation was Ramnana's favorite way of referring to what I was calling the return to spirit. Have a nice night, Bobby G. > > > At the bottom of matter is energy. > > At the bottom of energy is mind. > > At the bottom of mind is spirit. > > Using some of your words and the above sequence the other way around: > . spirit does not feel dispirited or degraded during its transformation into > mind, > . mind does not mind or feel degraded transforming into energy, > . by the same token, when energy materializes, it does not lose energy and > feel degraded, > . also it does not matter to matter, when it returns to spiritual > formlessness. > > There is no sense of de- or up-grading in this natural sequence, as though > one level is of a higher qualitative value than another in some kind of > moral sense... > > All this is play, and if we want to really play in freedom (lila) we better > not project the denatured human activity of value judgements onto divine > nature..., better not to try and bring that into "le milieu divin" (Teilhard > de Chardin). It is our beholdenness to that kind of "de-liberation" that > obscures our view of freedom... > > Moksha and Mukti are too often translated as liberation in the sense of > emancipation: what we do to free ourselves from restraint, control, bondage > or any controlling moral or belief system. > Mukti and Moksha ARE the "being in freedom", not the loosening-up activity > we employ to return to that freedom of being... > Only when moksha is in play will state changes as in the above > marked list > be possible. The whole theory of the five aggregates or the five elements > hinges on that. If we do not know that, we cannot understand the Heart Sutra > of Avalokiteshvara nor appreciate fully the wondrousness of nature. > > Wim. > > > texasbg2000 [bigbobgraham@a...] > Monday, September 16, 2002 12:01 PM > > Re: 41st Verse/Alt. Version/Gabe > > > When i first studied Raja Yoga the descriptions of how things are > made stuck in my memory. > > At the bottom of matter is energy. > At the bottom of energy is mind. > At the bottom of mind is spirit. > > Mind being the stuff of energy would at least explain how atoms know > how to act and where to be. Spirit behind energy would give impetus, > in the vitalization definition of spirit, and conclusion by the > return of matter to spirit by liberation. > > Take your time. > > Love > Bobby G. > > , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > > Yes Bobby, > > > > I know that I promised a few times to write about that special > field, the > > gauge field and that new (still conceptual) particle the dilaton... > It is > > that physical but intangible entity that holds all that info.... > > It holds the power of all potentialities but in pure energy only... > all > > enfolded in hidden dimensions... > > > > Wim. > > > > > > > > texasbg2000 [bigbobgraham@a...] > > Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:33 PM > > > > Re: 41st Verse/Alt. Version/Gabe > > > > > > Hi Wim: > > > > I see what you mean. The idea is clearer now. potential exists as > > reality too, correct me if I am wrong. A rock on top of a mountain > > posseses potential energy by its position in relation to its > > destination at the bottom of the cliff. A blueprint of the possible > > energy exists even while the rock is still. > > > > Love > > > > , Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote: > > > Hi Bobby, > > > > > > You wrote: > > > >>>...the efforts to be something that already is are no different > > than the > > > efforts to live.<<< > > > > > > That is a very strong, true and positive statement. It ties in > with > > what I > > > said about the distinction between enlightenment and realization. > > > Using your words slightly differently, one could say: > > > . "what we already are" can be seen as the seed stage, > > the "patterns of > > > what's to come" already laid out in blue print, preview mode so to > > say, > > > within the seed - the enlightenment stage. > > > . "the efforts to live" is the dynamic of becoming tangible > reality > > of the > > > flower from the seed - the realization stage. > > > > > > Wim > > > (thank you) > > > -------- > > > From a previous post: > > > Some of you know how I distinguish enlightenment from realization. > > To say it > > > simply: enlightenment is the process of seeing the truth - knowing > > it; > > > realization is the transformation of that into integrative > reality. > > I use > > > the word "realize" in the meaning of "realizing one's dreams", > > or "having a > > > plan take shape in reality". > > > > > > Compare this distinction to a seed that may "know" in its seed > > state what it > > > will look like in its flower state. Enlightenment is like that > > knowing, the > > > actual growing into that flower is the realization process. > > > That realization process is a non-linear sequence of going from > one > > state of > > > perfection to the next... With flowers there may be an end to it > or > > a repeat > > > process; with humans ... well what do we know...?! > > > > > > Just keep on realizing... > > > --- > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 > > > > > > > > /join > > > > > > > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside > > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than > > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. > > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. > Home is > > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of > Eternal > > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously > > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > --- > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal > Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously > arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Hi Bobby You wrote: >>>The idea of matter returning to spirit refers to the process of rudimentary Life (or sophisticated energy) assembling elements in patterns that reproduce with the blueprint you spoke of before to evolve until the process reaches human life and spirit is realized through matter. Perhaps it is clumsy to say it this way.<<< Well said, Bobby! Wim, I understand... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release 9/9/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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