Guest guest Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 Thank you for this wonderful post which actually helped me today. I'm a bit weepy from all the steroids and I look like Dead Elvis. I am the cancer patient with the weird website which was an issue for a member of your group. I would hope that they can learn from me rather than judge me so harshly. I mean no harm and my website is actually doing quite a bit of good, strange as it is. Because death information is secretive because of the funeral industry, as someone who has been classified as "incurable" I wanted to find out what was going to happen to my body when I die. Call it morbid curiosity, but my feeling was if I had to pay for an embalmer to do something to me I wanted to know what it was they would be doing. As it turns out this is a topic that many people are curious about, so I put together a website. It really hurt to be called a fraud, a capitalist, and basically a scam artist. I am probably more open about my cancer than most people are because so many women and men are dying of breast cancer. I would not have open up myself to even include my feelings in a film on immortality if I were the scum of the earth. My goal with my cancer is to teach people 1) that people with cancer are still people and we really don't want to be viewed as anything other than who we are 2) that people with incurable cancer do not lose their battle with cancer. Anyone who has fought the good fight in my eyes is not a loser 3) that many of us are being discriminated against in wanting to continue to work because employers do not wish to modify our jobs so we can continue working 4) that I wouldn't wish the hell I am going through on anyone. Here's what I've been put through in three years thanks to red tape, politics and doctors who don't care. Aug 23 1999 after six months of going to doctors for a lump I discovered in my left breast that moved and hurt I finally got an ob]gyn to authorize me to have not only a mammo on the lump but a sonogram. Previous doctors had argued that the lump moved and it hurt hence it was not cancer. My grandmother, mother and sister all had breast cancer in their history and my sister died of it last year. The radiologist discovered through a sonogram that I had indeed a lump about the size of a raquetball that appeared malignant (cancerous). I could not wait to select a surgeon so I was set up for surgery the next day. I begged for a double mastectomy, but was only permitted to have the lump removed. That meant after surgery I would have to undergo chemo and radiation. All along I kept reporting that my bones hurt and no one did anything to look into that part of the story. Aug 24 1999 The lump was removed, was confirmed to be cancer. Within weeks I started chemotherapy and then followed 6 months of chemo with 6 weeks of radiation. The radiation burned my esophagus, and caused nerve damage in my chest that caused me pain for the last three years. In the interim we discovered my cancer had already spread to the bone. After an almost three year battle with doctors and insurance I was finally approved for a double mastectomy, the was done Aug 20 of 2002 and I feel better than I have felt in 3 years. I am undergoing reconstruction which is an awful process. They put expanders under your skin and stretch you out until you think you are big enough for permanent implants. Your chest is as hard as a rock with these things under the skin, but the good news is that if you are on a plane and the plane goes down in the water you have your own built in flotation devices! The damage to my esophagus is irreparable and I will have to undergo dialation every three months for the rest of my life so I can eat. My website does have a warped sense of humor, but being able to laugh at myself at this point in my life and laugh at death is very healing for me. I don't know if anyone has read the FAQ, but I think you will see that I am basically harmless. And I have a jpeg of me bald and bloated if anyone wants to see what this cancer chick looks like undergoing treatment. I really am a good person, but am highly sensitive to accusations from people who don't even know me. I would hope that someone would appreciate the fact that I am laughing at my cancer and it seems to be keeping me alive. If I start to believe I am going to die of it I do believe I will do so sooner. Peace, Toni >Dear List, > >I just tuned into check the mail and I am surprised at some of the >discussion going on here. > > is completely dedicated to Ahimsa, the philosophy of >nonviolence. Being sarcastic to others and/or making fun of them or >their websites or their motives without any context seems very odd to >me. > >Why should an HS member be posting here other people's websites >and/or calling them frauds, etc.? There is no point to all this. We >don't censor long term members of the list in their postings, but >this is based on the assumption that the general spirit of Ahimsa on >list is respected. > >This is an open list and people can post as they please but posting >should be in the context of nonviolence and amity. > >Accusing someone who may have cancer of being a fraud appears to me >to lack both sensitivity and maturity. Why should the list be a stage >for this type of conversation? > >I am sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings but is not >for putting others down out of context, denigrating them, or defaming >them. Please do not use your posts for that purpose. > >We have said many times here that enlightened people are dime a >dozen, and basically we don't give much importance to that stuff. We >are after people who have generally good manners and are kind; the >stuff they teach in kindergarten. > >Everyone, be in peace, at least here.... > > >Love to all >Harsha > > > > ></join>http://groups.yaho >o.com/join > > > ><> > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and >subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not >different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of >the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is >always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know >the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee >relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from >within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > >Your use of is subject to the ><> Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2002 Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 Thank you Toni for sharing your story so openly. I don't know much about your website but am really sorry if any words originating with a member of this list caused you any hurt feelings. All of us, being human, make mistakes and have to depend on each other for compassion and understanding. It may be of some interest to you Toni that one of our satsangh members (Vicki) here has a similar story of cancer about her husband (which she will be sharing in the next issue of the HS magazine). There are many different ways that we all cope with the stresses, difficulties, challenges, and illnesses in our lives. I would pray that all of us find the strength to forgive each other and to love each other. The healing of the spirit lies in that. God bless you all with all good things. Harsha ============================================================ Toni Riss <triss 2002/11/03 Sun PM 04:13:06 EST harsha CC: Re: List Policies/Thank You and My Cancer Story Thank you for this wonderful post which actually helped me today. I'm a bit weepy from all the steroids and I look like Dead Elvis. I am the cancer patient with the weird website which was an issue for a member of your group. I would hope that they can learn from me rather than judge me so harshly. I mean no harm and my website is actually doing quite a bit of good, strange as it is. Because death information is secretive because of the funeral industry, as someone who has been classified as "incurable" I wanted to find out what was going to happen to my body when I die. Call it morbid curiosity, but my feeling was if I had to pay for an embalmer to do something to me I wanted to know what it was they would be doing. As it turns out this is a topic that many people are curious about, so I put together a website. It really hurt to be called a fraud, a capitalist, and basically a scam artist. I am probably more open about my cancer than most people are because so many women and men are dying of breast cancer. I would not have open up myself to even include my feelings in a film on immortality if I were the scum of the earth. My goal with my cancer is to teach people 1) that people with cancer are still people and we really don't want to be viewed as anything other than who we are 2) that people with incurable cancer do not lose their battle with cancer. Anyone who has fought the good fight in my eyes is not a loser 3) that many of us are being discriminated against in wanting to continue to work because employers do not wish to modify our jobs so we can continue working 4) that I wouldn't wish the hell I am going through on anyone. Here's what I've been put through in three years thanks to red tape, politics and doctors who don't care. Aug 23 1999 after six months of going to doctors for a lump I discovered in my left breast that moved and hurt I finally got an ob]gyn to authorize me to have not only a mammo on the lump but a sonogram. Previous doctors had argued that the lump moved and it hurt hence it was not cancer. My grandmother, mother and sister all had breast cancer in their history and my sister died of it last year. The radiologist discovered through a sonogram that I had indeed a lump about the size of a raquetball that appeared malignant (cancerous). I could not wait to select a surgeon so I was set up for surgery the next day. I begged for a double mastectomy, but was only permitted to have the lump removed. That meant after surgery I would have to undergo chemo and radiation. All along I kept reporting that my bones hurt and no one did anything to look into that part of the story. Aug 24 1999 The lump was removed, was confirmed to be cancer. Within weeks I started chemotherapy and then followed 6 months of chemo with 6 weeks of radiation. The radiation burned my esophagus, and caused nerve damage in my chest that caused me pain for the last three years. In the interim we discovered my cancer had already spread to the bone. After an almost three year battle with doctors and insurance I was finally approved for a double mastectomy, the was done Aug 20 of 2002 and I feel better than I have felt in 3 years. I am undergoing reconstruction which is an awful process. They put expanders under your skin and stretch you out until you think you are big enough for permanent implants. Your chest is as hard as a rock with these things under the skin, but the good news is that if you are on a plane and the plane goes down in the water you have your own built in flotation devices! The damage to my esophagus is irreparable and I will have to undergo dialation every three months for the rest of my life so I can eat. My website does have a warped sense of humor, but being able to laugh at myself at this point in my life and laugh at death is very healing for me. I don't know if anyone has read the FAQ, but I think you will see that I am basically harmless. And I have a jpeg of me bald and bloated if anyone wants to see what this cancer chick looks like undergoing treatment. I really am a good person, but am highly sensitive to accusations from people who don't even know me. I would hope that someone would appreciate the fact that I am laughing at my cancer and it seems to be keeping me alive. If I start to believe I am going to die of it I do believe I will do so sooner. Peace, Toni >Dear List, > >I just tuned into check the mail and I am surprised at some of the >discussion going on here. > > is completely dedicated to Ahimsa, the philosophy of >nonviolence. Being sarcastic to others and/or making fun of them or >their websites or their motives without any context seems very odd to >me. > >Why should an HS member be posting here other people's websites >and/or calling them frauds, etc.? There is no point to all this. We >don't censor long term members of the list in their postings, but >this is based on the assumption that the general spirit of Ahimsa on >list is respected. > >This is an open list and people can post as they please but posting >should be in the context of nonviolence and amity. > >Accusing someone who may have cancer of being a fraud appears to me >to lack both sensitivity and maturity. Why should the list be a stage >for this type of conversation? > >I am sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings but is not >for putting others down out of context, denigrating them, or defaming >them. Please do not use your posts for that purpose. > >We have said many times here that enlightened people are dime a >dozen, and basically we don't give much importance to that stuff. We >are after people who have generally good manners and are kind; the >stuff they teach in kindergarten. > >Everyone, be in peace, at least here.... > > >Love to all >Harsha > > > > ></join>http://groups.yaho >o.com/join > > > ><> > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and >subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not >different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of >the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is >always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know >the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee >relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from >within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > >Your use of is subject to the ><> Thank you for this wonderful post which actually helped me today. I'm a bit weepy from all the steroids and I look like Dead Elvis. I am the cancer patient with the weird website which was an issue for a member of your group. I would hope that they can learn from me rather than judge me so harshly. I mean no harm and my website is actually doing quite a bit of good, strange as it is. Because death information is secretive because of the funeral industry, as someone who has been classified as "incurable" I wanted to find out what was going to happen to my body when I die. Call it morbid curiosity, but my feeling was if I had to pay for an embalmer to do something to me I wanted to know what it was they would be doing. As it turns out this is a topic that many people are curious about, so I put together a website. It really hurt to be called a fraud, a capitalist, and basically a scam artist. I am probably more open about my cancer than most people are because so many women and men are dying of breast cancer. I would not have open up myself to even include my feelings in a film on immortality if I were the scum of the earth. My goal with my cancer is to teach people 1) that people with cancer are still people and we really don't want to be viewed as anything other than who we are 2) that people with incurable cancer do not lose their battle with cancer. Anyone who has fought the good fight in my eyes is not a loser 3) that many of us are being discriminated against in wanting to continue to work because employers do not wish to modify our jobs so we can continue working 4) that I wouldn't wish the hell I am going through on anyone. Here's what I've been put through in three years thanks to red tape, politics and doctors who don't care. Aug 23 1999 after six months of going to doctors for a lump I discovered in my left breast that moved and hurt I finally got an ob]gyn to authorize me to have not only a mammo on the lump but a sonogram. Previous doctors had argued that the lump moved and it hurt hence it was not cancer. My grandmother, mother and sister all had breast cancer in their history and my sister died of it last year. The radiologist discovered through a sonogram that I had indeed a lump about the size of a raquetball that appeared malignant (cancerous). I could not wait to select a surgeon so I was set up for surgery the next day. I begged for a double mastectomy, but was only permitted to have the lump removed. That meant after surgery I would have to undergo chemo and radiation. All along I kept reporting that my bones hurt and no one did anything to look into that part of the story. Aug 24 1999 The lump was removed, was confirmed to be cancer. Within weeks I started chemotherapy and then followed 6 months of chemo with 6 weeks of radiation. The radiation burned my esophagus, and caused nerve damage in my chest that caused me pain for the last three years. In the interim we discovered my cancer had already spread to the bone. After an almost three year battle with doctors and insurance I was finally approved for a double mastectomy, the was done Aug 20 of 2002 and I feel better than I have felt in 3 years. I am undergoing reconstruction which is an awful process. They put expanders under your skin and stretch you out until you think you are big enough for permanent implants. Your chest is as hard as a rock with these things under the skin, but the good news is that if you are on a plane and the plane goes down in the water you have your own built in flotation devices! The damage to my esophagus is irreparable and I will have to undergo dialation every three months for the rest of my life so I can eat. My website does have a warped sense of humor, but being able to laugh at myself at this point in my life and laugh at death is very healing for me. I don't know if anyone has read the FAQ, but I think you will see that I am basically harmless. And I have a jpeg of me bald and bloated if anyone wants to see what this cancer chick looks like undergoing treatment. I really am a good person, but am highly sensitive to accusations from people who don't even know me. I would hope that someone would appreciate the fact that I am laughing at my cancer and it seems to be keeping me alive. If I start to believe I am going to die of it I do believe I will do so sooner. Peace, Toni <excerpt><fixed>Dear List, I just tuned into check the mail and I am surprised at some of the discussion going on here. is completely dedicated to Ahimsa, the philosophy of nonviolence. Being sarcastic to others and/or making fun of them or their websites or their motives without any context seems very odd to me. Why should an HS member be posting here other people's websites and/or calling them frauds, etc.? There is no point to all this. We don't censor long term members of the list in their postings, but this is based on the assumption that the general spirit of Ahimsa on list is respected. This is an open list and people can post as they please but posting should be in the context of nonviolence and amity. Accusing someone who may have cancer of being a fraud appears to me to lack both sensitivity and maturity. Why should the list be a stage for this type of conversation? I am sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings but is not for putting others down out of context, denigrating them, or defaming them. Please do not use your posts for that purpose. We have said many times here that enlightened people are dime a dozen, and basically we don't give much importance to that stuff. We are after people who have generally good manners and are kind; the stuff they teach in kindergarten. Everyone, be in peace, at least here.... Love to all Harsha <</join>/grou\ p//join <<> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Your use of is subject to the <<> </fixed></excerpt><fixed></fixed> ============================================================ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2002 Report Share Posted November 5, 2002 I somehow missed the series of emails that this email refers to, so I backtracked and checked it out. It seems that there was missed communications all around. I must say that I expected better from some of the people on this forum who might have found a better way to deal with what they perceived. As a cancer survivor, dealing with the imminent threat of death is a shock to the system and it cannot be understood by anyone who has not materially met their own mortality. Different people met their death in different ways and to judge that as fraudulant is insensitive in the extreme, at least without checking the facts. As I looked at Toni's website I can see, on the other hand, that someone encountering its contents might have problems with its contents. We don't really want to look at the reality of death, what it means, and what the consequences are. We see our spiritual endeavors as all sweetness and light, filled with love and bliss. This is a kind of wish. We want our world and consciousness to be Sat-Chit-Ananda. We really want to believe that all that war, rape, pillage, murder, disease, violence, destruction of people and the environment, etc. is really all just an illusion -- and ANYTHING WHICH MIGHT THREATEN OUR WISH is an assault upon our belief system! The "flower children" of the sixties ended their reign of love at Kent State when a trigger-happy idiot shot one of them. And the story of love ended there in that movement. The fact that a drug-crazed hippie high on LSD and PCP raped and murdered the daughter of a friend of mine in Haight-Ashbury didn't stop the movement, but a gunshot at Kent State did! So much for illusion... Not everyone has met Ramana Maharshi, and not everyone has dealt with, as many Buddhists have, the charnal field. A charnal field is a place where bodies are left to rot in the open. A Buddhist monk who believes that they have found enlightenment spend a good bit of time in such a place to get reality on bodies, and their transience. There is our image of India, and the reality of India. I have many yogi friends who studied Yoga in the US and developed a desire to meet the "real" India. A trip to Calcutta ended that illusion. They couldn't handle the odors. I am not sure where this meant to go -- but I am concerned as one who has had to deal with his own potential death, not as an idea, as a belief that someday ..., but as a "I'm going into the operating room and I might not come out the same way I went in." And I didn't, of course. Eleven hours in surgery, 18 days in ICU, and I am still eating on a feeding tube, because the surgery was in my throat and the cancer was climbing up a major artery into my brain, so they took out a whole lot of stuff on my left side throat and up into my head. On the left side I can directly feel the cervical vertabrae, there is no muscle or other tissue covering them any more. My view of life and death changed quite a bit after I got out of the hospital, the next year was mostly a blurr. The importance of things has changed radically. When I deal with something now -- it is real. Like Love...I don't need to spout pretty words about it...I met it everyday...and there is no music playing in the background when I walk down the street -- except from the too loud music coming from the Latino car playing Hip Hop music at 160 decibels. If you haven't met your death, you haven't met your life yet. If you haven't met the reality of things as they are, then don't judge the reactions of another to reality. For the person who wrote these words... "Your cancer is a fraud." I say your Love and Bliss is a fraud! All that pretty poetry is just odors on the wind until you can walk your talk! , Harsha wrote: > Thank you Toni for sharing your story so openly. > > I don't know much about your website but am really sorry if any words originating with a member of this list caused you any hurt feelings. > > All of us, being human, make mistakes and have to depend on each other for compassion and understanding. > > It may be of some interest to you Toni that one of our satsangh members (Vicki) here has a similar story of cancer about her husband (which she will be sharing in the next issue of the HS magazine). > > There are many different ways that we all cope with the stresses, difficulties, challenges, and illnesses in our lives. > > I would pray that all of us find the strength to forgive each other and to love each other. The healing of the spirit lies in that. > > God bless you all with all good things. > > Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 On 11/5/02 at 7:06 AM John Logan wrote: [...] ºIf you haven't met your death, you haven't met your life yet. ºIf you haven't met the reality of things as they are, then don't ºjudge the reactions of another to reality. Of course John: life & death are 2 sides of the same coin but what connects them? Giving up one side implies giving up the other, spontaneously showing what connects both yet is neither is the message carried by the Kathopanishad. Avoiding this issue is like seeding a cancer that inevitably will grow as "clinging", showing as mental turmoil whether "enlightened" or not, alive or in the process of dying. As nature has a like for the simplicity of recursion and apparently the "enlightened condition" has been forgotten at least once, some "sensible" enquiry is required to stop the wheel, which comes natural for Yama's visitors. Strictly speaking, the Buddha was one of those visitors too, facing death instead of enlightenment, after several years of ascetic yet fruitless practice. Giving up the "last bit of clinging" resulted in a deep insight that could be shared and easily lived up too, as nothing is more inspiring than a living example. Peace, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Hi Jan, I'm not sure what your point is. My point was, to put it into "liberation" terms, rather than "process" terms as I wrote it: it is not in the giving up but in the acceptance. To reiterate your question: What is the coin of which life and death are the same? When we have met our death, then our priorities change, what is important changes, and all things become more equal and level. Yet as has been said, we still "chop wood and carry water". After all the pretty words we are "here, now" and must deal with it as it appears here, now. Only what we think about it is different, it is only in our thoughts that the illusions lie, but there also lies the truth as well. When we have met our death truly, the conditioning is unmasked, we have nothing more to lose, we have nothing more to gain, except, for me at least, each moment is filled with appreciation for the gift of that moment. Anne Cushman, "The world is impermanent, but the world is also a sacred place." Nameste, John L. , "ecirada" <ecirada@m...> wrote: > On 11/5/02 at 7:06 AM John Logan wrote: > > [...] > ºIf you haven't met your death, you haven't met your life yet. > ºIf you haven't met the reality of things as they are, then don't > ºjudge the reactions of another to reality. > > Of course John: life & death are 2 sides of the same coin but what connects them? > Giving up one side implies giving up the other, spontaneously showing what connects > both yet is neither is the message carried by the Kathopanishad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 At first, maya is maya and Brahman is Brahman... Then there is no maya, only Brahman... (vice-versa in the case of 'dark night of the soul') Finally, maya is Brahman. Samsara is most definitively Nirvana. Not that they equate... the two both lose meaning as separate things, the mind no longer divides. Peace, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 On 11/8/02 at 4:28 AM John Logan wrote: ºHi Jan, ºI'm not sure what your point is. My point was, to put it ºinto "liberation" terms, rather than "process" terms as I wrote it: ºit is not in the giving up but in the acceptance. Hi John, When a dog here loses a leg because of a traffic accident it remains basically the same dog, mobility is reduced. That's acceptance. º ºTo reiterate your question: What is the coin of which life and death ºare the same? º ºWhen we have met our death, then our priorities change, what is ºimportant changes, and all things become more equal and level. Yet as ºhas been said, we still "chop wood and carry water". Probably true for the author and you, in my case, not so. º ºAfter all the pretty words we are "here, now" and must deal with it ºas it appears here, now. Only what we think about it is different, it ºis only in our thoughts that the illusions lie, but there also lies ºthe truth as well. Regarding the acceptance of invalidity, pets are closest to see how to accept effortlessly. They still eat, drink and defecate, to paraphrase the above quote: they don't complain. º ºWhen we have met our death truly, the conditioning is unmasked, we ºhave nothing more to lose, we have nothing more to gain, except, for ºme at least, each moment is filled with appreciation for the gift of ºthat moment. Unless the death experience results in being unattached, directly translating into irreversibly changed behavior, (Ramana is a good example of that), conditioning still rules the waves. º ºAnne Cushman, "The world is impermanent, but the world is also a ºsacred place." When sacredness can be perceived, so can sacrilege as the two are inseparable. That is among what a death-experience could convey. Peace, Jan º ºNameste, ºJohn L. º º º, "ecirada" <ecirada@m...> wrote: º> On 11/5/02 at 7:06 AM John Logan wrote: º> º> [...] º> ºIf you haven't met your death, you haven't met your life yet. º> ºIf you haven't met the reality of things as they are, then don't º> ºjudge the reactions of another to reality. º> º> Of course John: life & death are 2 sides of the same coin but what ºconnects them? º> Giving up one side implies giving up the other, spontaneously ºshowing what connects º> both yet is neither is the message carried by the Kathopanishad. º º º º/join º º º º º ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome ºall to a. º º º ºYour use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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