possibilities/ProfessorVK

November 8, 2002

Thank you Professor Krishnamurthy for sharing that

wonderful quote from the Maitrayani Upanishad. It is

truth in a nutshell. I will pass it on to

.

"(The mind) has to be stilled until it merges in the

heart and disappears. That is Enlightenment. That is

mokSha. Everything else is just an elaboration."

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

wrote:

> Namaste

>

> Harsha <harshaimtm> writes

>

> <<......The "I" that merges in the Heart does not

> attract possibilities and whether anything is still

> possible becomes a moot point.......>>

>

> Wonderful. Harshaji. Your above passage reminds me

of the

> following passage in Maitrayani Upanishad:

>

> tAvad-eva niroddhavyaM hR^idi yAvat kShayaM gataM /

> etad-jnAnaM ca mokShaM ca sheShAstu

grantha-vistaraH //

>

> meaning, (The mind) has to be stilled until it

merges in the

> heart and disappears. That is Enlightenment. That is

mokSha.

> Everything else is just an elaboration.

>

> praNAms to all advaitins

> profvk

=====

/join

U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos

http://launch./u2

November 8, 2002

Hi Harsha,

Not long ago, Ramana was quoted on this list regarding the

issue that he rarely spoke on "liberation" but mostly on

"Self-realization". Apparently he knew something on the issue

you don't as otherwise he would have shown no preference for

one term or the other.

Not to mention that surely Ramana could be quoted in statements

similar to "the mind cannot still itself".

Since mind-dependent functions like perception continue irrespective

"enlightenment", what exactly dissolves? Before "Self-realization" or

"liberation" was recorded in scriptures, there has to be a memory of

something that can be experienced, then expressed and discussed,

reaching a consensus.

That indicates at least memory must have been changed as all

functioning depends on memory and without a change, there is nothing

to express nor to discuss. Hence a term like Self-realization denotes

a functional change to what already left a memory: stillness of mind

for no apparent reason. That is what is recognized, nothing else ;-)

As to no surprise, "liberation" concerns a complicated functional

change, and nothing is recognized as there is no memory of it. So Ramana

had a good reason not to go into "explaining" that as he knew well that

very few of his devotees would be "ripe enough" to devote their life to

meditation.

Jan

On 11/8/02 at 5:01 AM Harsha wrote:

ºThank you Professor Krishnamurthy for sharing that

ºwonderful quote from the Maitrayani Upanishad. It is

ºtruth in a nutshell. I will pass it on to

º.

º

º"(The mind) has to be stilled until it merges in the

ºheart and disappears. That is Enlightenment. That is

ºmokSha. Everything else is just an elaboration."

º

ºadvaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

ºwrote:

º> Namaste

º>

º> Harsha <harshaimtm> writes

º>

º> <<......The "I" that merges in the Heart does not

º> attract possibilities and whether anything is still

º> possible becomes a moot point.......>>

º>

º> Wonderful. Harshaji. Your above passage reminds me

ºof the

º> following passage in Maitrayani Upanishad:

º>

º> tAvad-eva niroddhavyaM hR^idi yAvat kShayaM gataM /

º> etad-jnAnaM ca mokShaM ca sheShAstu

ºgrantha-vistaraH //

º>

º> meaning, (The mind) has to be stilled until it

ºmerges in the

º> heart and disappears. That is Enlightenment. That is

ºmokSha.

º> Everything else is just an elaboration.

º>

º> praNAms to all advaitins

º> profvk

º

º=====

º/join

º

ºU2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos

ºhttp://launch./u2

º

º/join

º

ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present.

ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome

ºall to a.

º

ºYour use of is subject to

November 8, 2002

Dear Jan,

As a devotee of the Sage of Arunachala, the term Self-Realization

appears the most relevant to me and my experience as well. The term

liberation can mean many things and so I seldom use it.

>From a practical Yoga-Advaita perspective, Self is Recognized in two

ways.

1. Mind is stilled, the Shakti rises to the Sahasarara and then

merges in the Spiritual Heart. For this to happen, tendencies are

suspended by Grace. This is Nirvikalpa Samadhi and usually comes

after long years of spiritual practice having undergone other types

of Savikalpa Samadhis and various experiences. For a spiritually

mature mind, the nature of Self perpetually Reveals It Self as the

Self as ever new. Nirvikalpa Samadhi simply makes obvious That which

is already there in all its beauty already.

2. The second way is when the mind merges in the Heart and the

tendencies are fully destroyed. This is rare as shown in the case of

Sri RAmana. Here terms such as Self-Realization and liberation have

little meaning.

Self Is the Self. It Knows It Self By It Self and Through It Self. It

is the Seeker and the Sought and the process is contained in IT.

Method given by the Guru, practiced truly, is Known as the Goal that

is ever-existent.

Sri Ramana used to say that a true devotee with complete faith in his

Guru lives like a prince in this world. Having given up one's being

to the Lord of the Heart, who is the One Guru, what else can one do?

Love to all

Harsha

, "ecirada" <ecirada@m...> wrote:

> Hi Harsha,

>

> Not long ago, Ramana was quoted on this list regarding the

> issue that he rarely spoke on "liberation" but mostly on

> "Self-realization". Apparently he knew something on the issue

> you don't as otherwise he would have shown no preference for

> one term or the other.

>

> Not to mention that surely Ramana could be quoted in statements

> similar to "the mind cannot still itself".

>

> Since mind-dependent functions like perception continue

irrespective

> "enlightenment", what exactly dissolves? Before "Self-realization"

or

> "liberation" was recorded in scriptures, there has to be a memory

of

> something that can be experienced, then expressed and discussed,

> reaching a consensus.

>

> That indicates at least memory must have been changed as all

> functioning depends on memory and without a change, there is

nothing

> to express nor to discuss. Hence a term like Self-realization

denotes

> a functional change to what already left a memory: stillness of mind

> for no apparent reason. That is what is recognized, nothing else ;-)

>

> As to no surprise, "liberation" concerns a complicated functional

> change, and nothing is recognized as there is no memory of it. So

Ramana

> had a good reason not to go into "explaining" that as he knew well

that

> very few of his devotees would be "ripe enough" to devote their

life to

> meditation.

>

> Jan

>

> On 11/8/02 at 5:01 AM Harsha wrote:

>

> ºThank you Professor Krishnamurthy for sharing that

> ºwonderful quote from the Maitrayani Upanishad. It is

> ºtruth in a nutshell. I will pass it on to

> º.

> º

> º"(The mind) has to be stilled until it merges in the

> ºheart and disappears. That is Enlightenment. That is

> ºmokSha. Everything else is just an elaboration."

> º

> ºadvaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

> ºwrote:

> º> Namaste

> º>

> º> Harsha <harshaimtm> writes

> º>

> º> <<......The "I" that merges in the Heart does not

> º> attract possibilities and whether anything is still

> º> possible becomes a moot point.......>>

> º>

> º> Wonderful. Harshaji. Your above passage reminds me

> ºof the

> º> following passage in Maitrayani Upanishad:

> º>

> º> tAvad-eva niroddhavyaM hR^idi yAvat kShayaM gataM /

> º> etad-jnAnaM ca mokShaM ca sheShAstu

> ºgrantha-vistaraH //

> º>

> º> meaning, (The mind) has to be stilled until it

> ºmerges in the

> º> heart and disappears. That is Enlightenment. That is

> ºmokSha.

> º> Everything else is just an elaboration.

> º>

> º> praNAms to all advaitins

> º> profvk

> º

> º=====

> º/join

> º

> ºU2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos

> ºhttp://launch./u2

> º

> º/join

> º

> ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

sights,

> ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

> ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

> ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of

the

> ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present.

> ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to

be the

> ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

> ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome

> ºall to a.

> º

> ºYour use of is subject to

November 8, 2002

, "harshaimtm" wrote:

> 1. Mind is stilled, the Shakti rises to the Sahasarara and then

> merges in the Spiritual Heart. For this to happen, tendencies are

> suspended by Grace. This is Nirvikalpa Samadhi and usually comes

> after long years of spiritual practice having undergone other types

> of Savikalpa Samadhis and various experiences. For a spiritually

> mature mind, the nature of Self perpetually Reveals It Self as the

> Self as ever new. Nirvikalpa Samadhi simply makes obvious That

which

> is already there in all its beauty already.

>

> 2. The second way is when the mind merges in the Heart and the

> tendencies are fully destroyed. This is rare as shown in the case

of

> Sri RAmana. Here terms such as Self-Realization and liberation have

> little meaning.

>

> Self Is the Self. It Knows It Self By It Self and Through It Self.

It

> is the Seeker and the Sought and the process is contained in IT.

> Method given by the Guru, practiced truly, is Known as the Goal

that

> is ever-existent.

At the risk of assuming too much, these utterances have an air of

recitation about them, as though copied/pasted from another text or

recited from memory as read from some books.

Peace,

Tim

November 8, 2002

On 11/8/02 at 8:58 PM harshaimtm wrote:

ºDear Jan,

º

ºAs a devotee of the Sage of Arunachala, the term Self-Realization

ºappears the most relevant to me and my experience as well. The term

ºliberation can mean many things and so I seldom use it.

Whatever the term Self-realization means, it is "explanation after".

I know the term too and also that the Self doesn't realize one iota

by its very definition: that makes the term an oxymoron which doesn't

matter "after" but needlessly confuses "before".

º

ºFrom a practical Yoga-Advaita perspective, Self is Recognized in two

ºways.

º

º1. Mind is stilled, the Shakti rises to the Sahasarara and then

ºmerges in the Spiritual Heart. For this to happen, tendencies are

ºsuspended by Grace. This is Nirvikalpa Samadhi and usually comes

ºafter long years of spiritual practice having undergone other types

ºof Savikalpa Samadhis and various experiences. For a spiritually

ºmature mind, the nature of Self perpetually Reveals It Self as the

ºSelf as ever new. Nirvikalpa Samadhi simply makes obvious That which

ºis already there in all its beauty already.

Certainly not so from the Patanjali "Aphorisms on Yoga": no Shakti

rising is mentioned nor chakras.

º

º2. The second way is when the mind merges in the Heart and the

ºtendencies are fully destroyed. This is rare as shown in the case of

ºSri RAmana. Here terms such as Self-Realization and liberation have

ºlittle meaning.

All tendencies destroyed means the tendency to feel pain destroyed too.

Clearly that was not the case. Would like and dislike qualify for tendencies

also? That too remained till physical departure.

º

ºSelf Is the Self. It Knows It Self By It Self and Through It Self. It

ºis the Seeker and the Sought and the process is contained in IT.

ºMethod given by the Guru, practiced truly, is Known as the Goal that

ºis ever-existent.

The Absolute has no properties by definition (nirguna)

That makes further statements superfluous/confusing.

º

ºSri Ramana used to say that a true devotee with complete faith in his

ºGuru lives like a prince in this world. Having given up one's being

ºto the Lord of the Heart, who is the One Guru, what else can one do?

Apparently memory isn't functioning as good as you wrote:

----------

Tim, by the way, I love you and have no grudges against you at all. I

recalled that post of yours from long time ago simply because I have

a good memory and enjoyed it much. I mean who doesn't enjoy being

called a fraud now and then. It is so refreshing!

----------

Remember Tony's story on what happened with his complete faith in

his Guru? And he showed his experience is far from singular.

As these kind of experiences continue to happen, the quote now

is a generalization that lost validity at least 70 years ago and for

some now could hurt.

Peace,

Jan

º

ºLove to all

ºHarsha

º

º, "ecirada" <ecirada@m...> wrote:

º> Hi Harsha,

º>

º> Not long ago, Ramana was quoted on this list regarding the

º> issue that he rarely spoke on "liberation" but mostly on

º> "Self-realization". Apparently he knew something on the issue

º> you don't as otherwise he would have shown no preference for

º> one term or the other.

º>

º> Not to mention that surely Ramana could be quoted in statements

º> similar to "the mind cannot still itself".

º>

º> Since mind-dependent functions like perception continue

ºirrespective

º> "enlightenment", what exactly dissolves? Before "Self-realization"

ºor

º> "liberation" was recorded in scriptures, there has to be a memory

ºof

º> something that can be experienced, then expressed and discussed,

º> reaching a consensus.

º>

º> That indicates at least memory must have been changed as all

º> functioning depends on memory and without a change, there is

ºnothing

º> to express nor to discuss. Hence a term like Self-realization

ºdenotes

º> a functional change to what already left a memory: stillness of mind

º> for no apparent reason. That is what is recognized, nothing else ;-)

º>

º> As to no surprise, "liberation" concerns a complicated functional

º> change, and nothing is recognized as there is no memory of it. So

ºRamana

º> had a good reason not to go into "explaining" that as he knew well

ºthat

º> very few of his devotees would be "ripe enough" to devote their

ºlife to

º> meditation.

º>

º> Jan

º>

º> On 11/8/02 at 5:01 AM Harsha wrote:

º>

º> ºThank you Professor Krishnamurthy for sharing that

º> ºwonderful quote from the Maitrayani Upanishad. It is

º> ºtruth in a nutshell. I will pass it on to

º> º.

º> º

º> º"(The mind) has to be stilled until it merges in the

º> ºheart and disappears. That is Enlightenment. That is

º> ºmokSha. Everything else is just an elaboration."

º> º

º> ºadvaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

º> ºwrote:

º> º> Namaste

º> º>

º> º> Harsha <harshaimtm> writes

º> º>

º> º> <<......The "I" that merges in the Heart does not

º> º> attract possibilities and whether anything is still

º> º> possible becomes a moot point.......>>

º> º>

º> º> Wonderful. Harshaji. Your above passage reminds me

º> ºof the

º> º> following passage in Maitrayani Upanishad:

º> º>

º> º> tAvad-eva niroddhavyaM hR^idi yAvat kShayaM gataM /

º> º> etad-jnAnaM ca mokShaM ca sheShAstu

º> ºgrantha-vistaraH //

º> º>

º> º> meaning, (The mind) has to be stilled until it

º> ºmerges in the

º> º> heart and disappears. That is Enlightenment. That is

º> ºmokSha.

º> º> Everything else is just an elaboration.

º> º>

º> º> praNAms to all advaitins

º> º> profvk

º> º

º> º=====

º> º/join

º> º

º> ºU2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos

º> ºhttp://launch./u2

º> º

º> º/join

º> º

º> ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

ºsights,

º> ºperceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

º> ºsubside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

º> ºdifferent than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of

ºthe

º> ºnature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

ºPresent.

º> ºIt is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to

ºbe the

º> ºFinality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

º> ºSelf-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

ºWelcome

º> ºall to a.

º> º

º> ºYour use of is subject to