Guest guest Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 what do you think, are we affected by the place we live at: by the collective unconscious? i was reading : " Dreams and Morphogenesis Some theorists (Carl Jung, for example) postulate a 'collective unconscious,' a kind of shared 'undermind' that we are all linked to. We dip into this place when we sleep and dream. This unconscious energy drives us and affects our moods and attitudes. When we sleep, this energy flows through our minds without restraint, and causes our image making function to fire volleys unfettered by logic. We call these images 'dreams.' By working with our dreams, we can untangle our subconscious motivations, complexes and urges. This is based on the idea that all of the characters in the dream come from within the mind of the dreamer. For Example: A person dreams of crossing a bridge, and being confronted by a "guardian" or "troll" that tries to prevent the dreamer's passage. Later, awake, with eyes shut, the dreamer recreates the dream, savoring the "feeling tone," and remembering every possible detail. Then, when the Guardian is confronted, the dreamer takes control of the script, and attempts a dialog, perhaps a reconciliation. The dreamer attempts to "wear the shoes of the guardian," to understand it's point of view. Many non-technological cultures give great credence to their dreams. The Australian Aborigines believe the dreamtime is the real world, and that this place we live in is the 'dream.' Gurdjieff says we are walking in our sleep, dreaming we are awake. Still others say that we are dreaming all of the time, but that our waking state drowns out the more subtle mental activity. Dream recall is difficult for some, but it can be cultivated. Recall is easily inhibited by the presence in the body of substances like pot, alcohol, and other medications. Going to sleep with a clean head assures the best dream harvest. Evolution, History, and Time Collective thought or group transformation is part of a larger system, the fractal of consciousness. "Morphogenetic" means "fluxing character transmission," or "genetics in flux." The morphogenetic field is our world, and community. Learning by one member of the group is passed to the entire collective through this invisible field, in addition to the genetic transfer we are already aware of. The morphogenetic field is fractal, and infinite in its complexity. Another point can also be understood more easily using the fractal model, that is that any change, no matter how slight, effects the entire picture. Fractals also descibe the mystery that permeates the universe; the repeating cycles, the fact that no matter how deep you go, there is always more detail. Fractals describe deterministic chaos, that is, a seemingly chaotic system that begins to reveal patterns in itself over time and space. The universe is a perfect natural example of deterministic chaos... (Until computers and the modern perspective, entropy was believed to be the only chaos possible. "Entropic chaos" is a system that degenerates into nothingness.) Another analogy is to liken each individual human brain to one cell in a much larger system-- a planetary cortex. It is easy this way to see humanity as one person's life, extended over millennia, going through denial, changes, and learning, like each of us do. ALL of the universe is one, flowing, fractal mind-form - we call it God, Goddess, Brahman, Allah, Buddhahood, Ahura-Mazda, El-Shaddai, Jah, Manitou, math, language, chemistry, history, religion, humor, evolution, and infinitely more. It is "center everywhere, circumference nowhere - " we are the center of the universe, because it is infinite. And we are also an insignificant speck, a bubble on the cosmic oceans. Time is a human invention, based on the periodicity of day and night, the seasons, and our own mortality. But in the context of infinity, time is meaningless. Evolution/Creation is never/always finished." k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 , "satkartar5" <sat_karta@h...> wrote: > what do you think, are we affected > by the place we live at: by the collective unconscious? > > i was reading : " Dreams and Morphogenesis > Some theorists (Carl Jung, for example) postulate a 'collective > unconscious,' > a kind of shared 'undermind' that we > are all linked to. We dip into this place > when we sleep and dream. You said "what do you think," so here's an answer -- no, i don't believe in a "collective unconscious." There's an unconscious part of the mind (actually, 99% of the mind is 'unconscious') but nothing 'collective' about it, except perhaps the conditioning which is certainly collective :-). > This unconscious energy drives us and > affects our moods and attitudes. When > we sleep, this energy flows through our > minds without restraint, and causes our image making function to fire volleys unfettered by logic. We call these images > 'dreams.' > > By working with our dreams, we can > untangle our subconscious motivations, complexes and urges. Why not work with the 'waking dream' too? It comprises the larger part of the day... > This is based on > the idea that all of the characters > in the dream come from within the mind > of the dreamer. Yes... no different whatsoever in the waking state. Cheers, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 Dear k: Nice essay. I don't think of the collective unconscious as a free floating energy if that was part of what you were asking. That does not fit in with other parts of my structure of understanding. It may do very well in someone else's though and I am not critical of it. The collective unconscious is an interesting theory. I only read a little about it, mostly about similar images that ocurred to different peoples. Two of these are the image of the hero overcoming obstacles and being just, and the circle or snake eating its tail as the description of the universe and creation. They emerged at different places on the planet and recurred to succeeding societies seemingly independent of personal communication by individuals. I think the theory was that these images recurred as a communication without verbalization from the hardware of the brain rather than the software implanted by a society. The very structure of the brain as a compilation engineered by evolution is explained by Carl Sagan in "The Dragons of Eden". The central portion developed as a nerve ganglia in early creatures and then the ganglia became more complex in the reptiles. The great step from reptiles to mammals did not start from scratch and make a new brain but added new brain matter to the old for the new functions required to give live birth and so on. In people the neo cortex was added to the already perfectly working brain. What would the new functions be? The process of evolution inherent in physical reality finds its counterpart in the process of evolution of the individual pscyhe or the mental world. That is, evoltion overcomes limitations of the organism to better fit the environment, which correlates to the willingness to conquer and overcome obstacles to the evolution of the spirit. To be a hero. I think it makes a lot sense within the structure of perception and how to deal with ignorance and suffering. As far as I know animals do not overcome or remove obstacles to their evolution, only to their daily existence. Why would humans universally try to climb the highest peak so to speak unless it were hardwired into the machine itself. In this case by eons of development. The images that occur to us unbidden are more important than we are usually willing to admit. This work by Jung seems worthwhile to me because it provides a base for society to understand why the drive for excellence exists. If the drive is perverted to be an ego thing, well then the base for understanding that also exists. Love Bobby G. , "satkartar5" <sat_karta@h...> wrote: > what do you think, are we affected > by the place we live at: by the collective unconscious? > > i was reading : " Dreams and Morphogenesis > Some theorists (Carl Jung, for example) postulate a 'collective unconscious,' > a kind of shared 'undermind' that we > are all linked to. We dip into this place > when we sleep and dream. > > This unconscious energy drives us and > affects our moods and attitudes. When > we sleep, this energy flows through our > minds without restraint, and causes our image making function to fire volleys unfettered by logic. We call these images > 'dreams.' > > By working with our dreams, we can > untangle our subconscious motivations, complexes and urges. This is based on > the idea that all of the characters > in the dream come from within the mind > of the dreamer. > > For Example: > A person dreams of crossing a bridge, > and being confronted by a "guardian" > or "troll" that tries to prevent the > dreamer's passage. Later, awake, with > eyes shut, the dreamer recreates the > dream, savoring the "feeling tone," > and remembering every possible detail. > Then, when the Guardian is confronted, > the dreamer takes control of the script, > and attempts a dialog, perhaps a reconciliation. The dreamer attempts > to "wear the shoes of the guardian," > to understand it's point of view. > > Many non-technological cultures give > great credence to their dreams. The Australian Aborigines believe the > dreamtime is the real world, and that > this place we live in is the 'dream.' > > Gurdjieff says we are walking in our > sleep, dreaming we are awake. > Still others say that we are dreaming > all of the time, but that our waking > state drowns out the more subtle mental > activity. > > Dream recall is difficult for some, > but it can be cultivated. Recall is easily > inhibited by the presence in the body > of substances like pot, alcohol, and > other medications. Going to sleep with > a clean head assures the best dream > harvest. > > Evolution, History, and Time > Collective thought or group transformation > is part of a larger system, the fractal > of consciousness. "Morphogenetic" > means "fluxing character transmission," > or "genetics in flux." > > The morphogenetic field is our world, > and community. Learning by one member > of the group is passed to the entire collective through this invisible field, > in addition to the genetic transfer we > are already aware of. > > The morphogenetic field is fractal, > and infinite in its complexity. Another > point can also be understood more easily > using the fractal model, that is that > any change, no matter how slight, > effects the entire picture. Fractals > also descibe the mystery that permeates > the universe; the repeating cycles, > the fact that no matter how deep you > go, there is always more detail. > > Fractals describe deterministic chaos, > that is, a seemingly chaotic system > that begins to reveal patterns in > itself over time and space. The universe > is a perfect natural example of deterministic chaos... > > (Until computers and the modern > perspective, entropy was believed to > be the only chaos possible. "Entropic > chaos" is a system that degenerates > into nothingness.) > Another analogy is to liken each > individual human brain to one cell in > a much larger system-- a planetary > cortex. It is easy this way to see > humanity as one person's life, extended > over millennia, going through denial, changes, and learning, like each of us > do. > > ALL of the universe is one, flowing, > fractal mind-form - we call it God, > Goddess, Brahman, Allah, Buddhahood, Ahura-Mazda, El-Shaddai, Jah, Manitou, > math, language, chemistry, history, religion, humor, evolution, and > infinitely more. It is "center > everywhere, circumference nowhere - > " we are the center of the universe, > because it is infinite. And we are > also an insignificant speck, a bubble > on the cosmic oceans. > > Time is a human invention, based on > the periodicity of day and night, > the seasons, and our own mortality. > But in the context of infinity, time > is meaningless. Evolution/Creation > is never/always finished." > > k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: Re: collective unconscious Dear k: Nice essay. I don't think of the collective unconscious as a free floating energy if that was part of what you were asking. That does not fit in with other parts of my structure of understanding. It may do very well in someone else's though and I am not critical of it. The collective unconscious is an interesting theory. I only read a little about it, mostly about similar images that ocurred to different peoples. Two of these are the image of the hero overcoming obstacles and being just, and the circle or snake eating its tail as the description of the universe and creation. They emerged at different places on the planet and recurred to succeeding societies seemingly independent of personal communication by individuals. I think the theory was that these images recurred as a communication without verbalization from the hardware of the brain rather than the software implanted by a society. The very structure of the brain as a compilation engineered by evolution is explained by Carl Sagan in "The Dragons of Eden". The central portion developed as a nerve ganglia in early creatures and then the ganglia became more complex in the reptiles. The great step from reptiles to mammals did not start from scratch and make a new brain but added new brain matter to the old for the new functions required to give live birth and so on. In people the neo cortex was added to the already perfectly working brain. What would the new functions be? The process of evolution inherent in physical reality finds its counterpart in the process of evolution of the individual pscyhe or the mental world. That is, evoltion overcomes limitations of the organism to better fit the environment, which correlates to the willingness to conquer and overcome obstacles to the evolution of the spirit. To be a hero. I think it makes a lot sense within the structure of perception and how to deal with ignorance and suffering. As far as I know animals do not overcome or remove obstacles to their evolution, only to their daily existence. Why would humans universally try to climb the highest peak so to speak unless it were hardwired into the machine itself. In this case by eons of development. The images that occur to us unbidden are more important than we are usually willing to admit. This work by Jung seems worthwhile to me because it provides a base for society to understand why the drive for excellence exists. If the drive is perverted to be an ego thing, well then the base for understanding that also exists. Love Bobby G. Attaining Freedom The belief that we have somehow not attained the state of who we actually Are is one of mind's ways of obstructing, or postponing, its own dethronement, because there is the suspicion that, if the Truth of our own Nature is allowed in, then there will be something that will not survive, and this is correct. What does not survive is the exclusivity of the independent entity -- the complex structure of the separative self-sense, painfully constructed over countless years and perpetually re-inforced by conditioning-in-the-moment, and all based upon an innocent notion of mistaken identity. We have come to assume that we are a "somebody", divided from life and love, and in the hellish position of having to manipulate circumstance in order to carve out some little piece of fleeting happiness, when in fact we are Happiness Itself. Despairing of this, we imagine, we hope, that there must be some heaven elsewhere to which we might be transported from this "vale of tears", once we have served our sentence of embodiment in this prison of wounded flesh and confused suffering. We are drawn to little hopeful anecdotes about news from "the beyond", and we become fascinated by anything that will distract us from our present condition, which is perceived as less than completely Happy. Religious "authorities", who themselves secretly doubt the revelation of Loving Truth upon which their traditions are based, maintain their power and influence by blithely leading little children out of the wonder of their own pristine innocence and into the snake pit of guilt and shame with the indoctrination of the Lie -- the lie that we are apart from the Great One, that we are somehow diseased and that their church, method, yoga, dharma, prayer, practice is the cure. Thee is no cure -- this is an imaginary disease. It does not exist. We swim, unfettered, in the Ocean of This Great One, Who Is Love, Only Love. Everyone "knows" this in their own core, everyone intuits the Embrace of the Beloved, the YES of God, because in Truth That is Who we Are -- how could it be otherwise? And yet, we persist in doubt, because we have become distracted from our own deepest yearning by the paltry allure of temporary beliefs and satisfactions, which never amount to anything more than a bitter taste when they dissolve, which they must, since there is nothing that can be held onto in this dreamy realm of the imagination. However, when we are moved by the Grace of Remembrance Itself into the blessed stream of that deep yearning, so that we become like a lightning arrow, unswerving in devotion to the True, then these cardboard walls of accumulated belief shall be pierced through, and our Heart's Desire, the Peace that passeth understanding, shall be revealed as our own Self, What Is, This. ~ b "You are only scratching the surface. It can't do you any good at all. What you hear must enter you like an arrow and hit something deep within you. There must be an internal reaction; without the reaction what you hear won't do you any good. You should know it when the arrow reaches its mark." ~Nisargadatta "Your duty is to be and not to be this or that. 'I am that I am' sums up the whole truth. The method is summed up in the words 'Be still'. What does stillness mean? It means destroy yourself. Because any form or shape is the cause for trouble. Give up the notion that 'I am so and so'. All that is required to realize the Self is to be still. What can be easier than that?" ~Sri Ramana Maharshi "Effort is necessary up to the state of realization. Even then the Self should spontaneously become evident, otherwise happiness will not be complete. Up to that state of spontaneity there must be effort in some form or another. There is a state beyond our efforts or effortlessness. Until it is realized effort is necessary. After tasting such bliss, even once, one will repeatedly try to regain it. Having once experienced the bliss of peace no one wants to be out of it or to engage in any other activity." ~Sri Ramana Maharshi There is a parrot in you that God speaks through. What the parrot says, you see reflected in phenomena. The parrot takes away what you think you like and gives joy. She hurts you and you feel the perfect justice of the pain. You were burning up your soul to keep body delighted, but you didn't know what you were doing. I am another kind of fire. If you have trash to get rid of, bring it here. My kindling is always on the verge of catching. How can such things be hidden? How can I talk with a raging lion inside me? The lion that wants union cannot be contained by any meadow. I try to think of different rhyme-words, but the Friend says, "Think only of me. Sit and rest in my presence, where you yourself rhyme with me! What are words anyway? Thorns in the hedge that goes around the vineyard. I'll make word-sounds unintelligible. I can talk to you without them! You are the consciousness of the world, and I want to tell you what I didn't tell Adam, or Abraham, what Jesus held back from saying. "Language has been qualified up until now with signifiers denoting positive and negative." No more of that. The true self is a no-self. Fall in love with the lover who disappears in a love for you. Be water searching for thirst. Be silent and all ear. When Spring ecstasy floods, build a dam or everything will wash away. Oh let it go! Under the foundation's ruins there's treasure. Those drowned in God want to be more drowned. They can't decide, being thrown about, whether they love more the bottom, the surface, or some middle region. ~Rumi Enlightenment is not about words and thoughts and concepts which can be doubted. Enlightenment is always Here. By "Here" I don't mean this present space. Here is somewhere within where mind cannot reach. Presence is always Here and you are always That. This Here is not the opposite of "there." This Here is nowhere, it is your Heart. When mind is still all comes back to the Heart. All the cosmos is but a speck in your Heart. Turn mind over into This Here and it is lost. Then only Light, Wisdom and Love remain and This you are not different or apart from. ~Papaji Happiness is not over there or just around the corner. Happiness is wherever we are. Happiness cannot be taken from us; it is we who are giving up happiness now to search for another happiness somewhere else. Q: How can I know when I am in the Self? Are there signposts? A: You will know that you are no longer in duality. You will no longer consider yourself to be without knowing, and you will see the same knowing in other people. Before this knowing you considered yourself to be ignorant, and you considered people around you as ignorant, except for the enlightened teachers. But now you will see the same light of knowing in all people, including yourself, and you wonder how you could have missed it before." ~Sri Nityananda "By reason, you will achieve nothing. It then remains on the level of mind, and the mind is very clever. The mind is the Shadow of Shaitan, as the Persian proverb goes. If the Shaitan has yielded, the whole barrier is gone. But for the complete surrender one needs more than that; there is not only the Mind, but the Will and the Character to be surrendered too. But already a great step is done if the Mind has yielded …. A very great one. It is the Victory. Little by little it will be done. It takes time." ~Bhai Sahib Meditation and self-discipline are not all that's needed, nor even a deep longing to go through the door of freedom. You may dissolve in contemplation, as salt does in water, but there's something more that must happen. ~Lalla "When you sit, don't expect to be noble. When we sit with what is, even for a few minutes, then this presence that we are is like a mirror. We see everything. We see what we are: our efforts to look good, to be first, or to be last. We see our anger, our anxiety, our pomposity, our so-called spirituality. Real spirituality is just being with all that. If we can really be with who we are, Transformation occurs." ~Charlotte Joko Beck LoveAlways, Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 , "satkartar5" <sat_karta@h...> wrote: > what do you think, are we affected > by the place we live at: by the collective unconscious? > > i was reading : " Dreams and Morphogenesis > Some theorists (Carl Jung, for example) postulate a 'collective unconscious,' > a kind of shared 'undermind' that we > are all linked to. We dip into this place > when we sleep and dream. Namaste, In this world of illusion, The Sakti projects a universal mind, The Mahat. We are all whirlpools in this mind that's all. There are group whirlpools for animals, humans , different species etc etc. Variations of the same energy attracted to form 'common whirlpools', that's all. It is just one Mahat ultimately. We not only dip into it, we are it in the 'waking state', also. The waking state is just a more stable dream that's all. We all agree on its composition............Om Sakti....Saktidass. P.S. Happy Thanksgiving to all the Yanks ( Yengis/English). Let us all give thanks but remember it isn't a good day for turkeys, and an even worse day for Native North Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > Dear k: > > Nice essay. I don't think of the collective unconscious as a free > floating energy if that was part of what you were asking. That does > not fit in with other parts of my structure of understanding. It may > do very well in someone else's though and I am not critical of it. > > The collective unconscious is an interesting theory. I only read a > little about it, mostly about similar images that ocurred to > different peoples. Two of these are the image of the hero overcoming > obstacles and being just, and the circle or snake eating its tail as > the description of the universe and creation. They emerged at > different places on the planet and recurred to succeeding societies > seemingly independent of personal communication by individuals. > > I think the theory was that these images recurred as a communication > without verbalization from the hardware of the brain rather than the > software implanted by a society. The very structure of the brain as > a compilation engineered by evolution is explained by Carl Sagan > in "The Dragons of Eden". The central portion developed as a nerve > ganglia in early creatures and then the ganglia became more complex > in the reptiles. The great step from reptiles to mammals did not > start from scratch and make a new brain but added new brain matter to > the old for the new functions required to give live birth and so on. > In people the neo cortex was added to the already perfectly working > brain. What would the new functions be? > > The process of evolution inherent in physical reality finds its > counterpart in the process of evolution of the individual pscyhe or > the mental world. That is, evoltion overcomes limitations of the > organism to better fit the environment, which correlates to the > willingness to conquer and overcome obstacles to the evolution of the > spirit. To be a hero. > > I think it makes a lot sense within the structure of perception and > how to deal with ignorance and suffering. > > As far as I know animals do not overcome or remove obstacles to their > evolution, only to their daily existence. Why would humans > universally try to climb the highest peak so to speak unless it were > hardwired into the machine itself. In this case by eons of > development. The images that occur to us unbidden are more important > than we are usually willing to admit. > > This work by Jung seems worthwhile to me because it provides a base > for society to understand why the drive for excellence exists. If > the drive is perverted to be an ego thing, well then the base for > understanding that also exists. > > Love > Bobby G. thanks Bobby k > > , "satkartar5" <sat_karta@h...> wrote: > > what do you think, are we affected > > by the place we live at: by the collective unconscious? > > > > i was reading : " Dreams and Morphogenesis > > Some theorists (Carl Jung, for example) postulate a 'collective > unconscious,' > > a kind of shared 'undermind' that we > > are all linked to. We dip into this place > > when we sleep and dream. > > > > This unconscious energy drives us and > > affects our moods and attitudes. When > > we sleep, this energy flows through our > > minds without restraint, and causes our image making function to > fire volleys unfettered by logic. We call these images > > 'dreams.' > > > > By working with our dreams, we can > > untangle our subconscious motivations, complexes and urges. This is > based on > > the idea that all of the characters > > in the dream come from within the mind > > of the dreamer. > > > > For Example: > > A person dreams of crossing a bridge, > > and being confronted by a "guardian" > > or "troll" that tries to prevent the > > dreamer's passage. Later, awake, with > > eyes shut, the dreamer recreates the > > dream, savoring the "feeling tone," > > and remembering every possible detail. > > Then, when the Guardian is confronted, > > the dreamer takes control of the script, > > and attempts a dialog, perhaps a reconciliation. The dreamer > attempts > > to "wear the shoes of the guardian," > > to understand it's point of view. > > > > Many non-technological cultures give > > great credence to their dreams. The Australian Aborigines believe > the > > dreamtime is the real world, and that > > this place we live in is the 'dream.' > > > > Gurdjieff says we are walking in our > > sleep, dreaming we are awake. > > Still others say that we are dreaming > > all of the time, but that our waking > > state drowns out the more subtle mental > > activity. > > > > Dream recall is difficult for some, > > but it can be cultivated. Recall is easily > > inhibited by the presence in the body > > of substances like pot, alcohol, and > > other medications. Going to sleep with > > a clean head assures the best dream > > harvest. > > > > Evolution, History, and Time > > Collective thought or group transformation > > is part of a larger system, the fractal > > of consciousness. "Morphogenetic" > > means "fluxing character transmission," > > or "genetics in flux." > > > > The morphogenetic field is our world, > > and community. Learning by one member > > of the group is passed to the entire collective through this > invisible field, > > in addition to the genetic transfer we > > are already aware of. > > > > The morphogenetic field is fractal, > > and infinite in its complexity. Another > > point can also be understood more easily > > using the fractal model, that is that > > any change, no matter how slight, > > effects the entire picture. Fractals > > also descibe the mystery that permeates > > the universe; the repeating cycles, > > the fact that no matter how deep you > > go, there is always more detail. > > > > Fractals describe deterministic chaos, > > that is, a seemingly chaotic system > > that begins to reveal patterns in > > itself over time and space. The universe > > is a perfect natural example of deterministic chaos... > > > > (Until computers and the modern > > perspective, entropy was believed to > > be the only chaos possible. "Entropic > > chaos" is a system that degenerates > > into nothingness.) > > Another analogy is to liken each > > individual human brain to one cell in > > a much larger system-- a planetary > > cortex. It is easy this way to see > > humanity as one person's life, extended > > over millennia, going through denial, changes, and learning, like > each of us > > do. > > > > ALL of the universe is one, flowing, > > fractal mind-form - we call it God, > > Goddess, Brahman, Allah, Buddhahood, Ahura-Mazda, El-Shaddai, Jah, > Manitou, > > math, language, chemistry, history, religion, humor, evolution, > and > > infinitely more. It is "center > > everywhere, circumference nowhere - > > " we are the center of the universe, > > because it is infinite. And we are > > also an insignificant speck, a bubble > > on the cosmic oceans. > > > > Time is a human invention, based on > > the periodicity of day and night, > > the seasons, and our own mortality. > > But in the context of infinity, time > > is meaningless. Evolution/Creation > > is never/always finished." > > > > k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 , "mazie_l" <sraddha54@h...> wrote: > , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > > Re: collective unconscious > > Dear k: > > Nice essay. I don't think of the collective unconscious as a free > floating energy if that was part of what you were asking. That does > not fit in with other parts of my structure of understanding. It may > do very well in someone else's though and I am not critical of it. > > The collective unconscious is an interesting theory. I only read a > little about it, mostly about similar images that ocurred to > different peoples. Two of these are the image of the hero overcoming > obstacles and being just, and the circle or snake eating its tail as > the description of the universe and creation. They emerged at > different places on the planet and recurred to succeeding societies > seemingly independent of personal communication by individuals. > > I think the theory was that these images recurred as a communication > without verbalization from the hardware of the brain rather than the > software implanted by a society. The very structure of the brain as > a compilation engineered by evolution is explained by Carl Sagan > in "The Dragons of Eden". The central portion developed as a nerve > ganglia in early creatures and then the ganglia became more complex > in the reptiles. The great step from reptiles to mammals did not > start from scratch and make a new brain but added new brain matter to > the old for the new functions required to give live birth and so on. > In people the neo cortex was added to the already perfectly working > brain. What would the new functions be? > > The process of evolution inherent in physical reality finds its > counterpart in the process of evolution of the individual pscyhe or > the mental world. That is, evoltion overcomes limitations of the > organism to better fit the environment, which correlates to the > willingness to conquer and overcome obstacles to the evolution of the > spirit. To be a hero. > > I think it makes a lot sense within the structure of perception and > how to deal with ignorance and suffering. > > As far as I know animals do not overcome or remove obstacles to their > evolution, only to their daily existence. Why would humans > universally try to climb the highest peak so to speak unless it were > hardwired into the machine itself. In this case by eons of > development. The images that occur to us unbidden are more important > than we are usually willing to admit. > > This work by Jung seems worthwhile to me because it provides a base > for society to understand why the drive for excellence exists. If > the drive is perverted to be an ego thing, well then the base for > understanding that also exists. > > Love > Bobby G. > > > Attaining Freedom > > The belief that we have somehow not attained the state of who we > actually Are is one of mind's ways of obstructing, or postponing, its > own dethronement, because there is the suspicion that, if the Truth > of our own Nature is allowed in, then there will be something that > will not survive, and this is correct. What does not survive is the > exclusivity of the independent entity -- the complex structure of the > separative self-sense, painfully constructed over countless years and > perpetually re-inforced by conditioning-in-the-moment, and all based > upon an innocent notion of mistaken identity. We have come to assume > that we are a "somebody", divided from life and love, and in the > hellish position of having to manipulate circumstance in order to > carve out some little piece of fleeting happiness, when in fact we > are Happiness Itself. > Despairing of this, we imagine, we hope, that there must be some > heaven elsewhere to which we might be transported from this "vale of > tears", once we have served our sentence of embodiment in this prison > of wounded flesh and confused suffering. We are drawn to little > hopeful anecdotes about news from "the beyond", and we become > fascinated by anything that will distract us from our present > condition, which is perceived as less than completely Happy. > Religious "authorities", who themselves secretly doubt the revelation > of Loving Truth upon which their traditions are based, maintain their > power and influence by blithely leading little children out of the > wonder of their own pristine innocence and into the snake pit of > guilt and shame with the indoctrination of the Lie -- the lie that we > are apart from the Great One, that we are somehow diseased and that > their church, method, yoga, dharma, prayer, practice is the cure. > Thee is no cure -- this is an imaginary disease. It does > not exist. We swim, unfettered, in the Ocean of This Great One, Who > Is Love, Only Love. Everyone "knows" this in their own core, everyone > intuits the Embrace of the Beloved, the YES of God, because in Truth > That is Who we Are -- how could it be otherwise? > And yet, we persist in doubt, because we have become distracted from > our own deepest yearning by the paltry allure of temporary beliefs > and satisfactions, which never amount to anything more than a bitter > taste when they dissolve, which they must, since there is nothing > that can be held onto in this dreamy realm of the imagination. > However, when we are moved by the Grace of Remembrance Itself into > the blessed stream of that deep yearning, so that we become like a > lightning arrow, unswerving in devotion to the True, then these > cardboard walls of accumulated belief shall be pierced through, and > our Heart's Desire, the Peace that passeth understanding, shall be > revealed as our own Self, What Is, This. > > ~ b Dear b I have heard all that before and even discussed it with you. What I have not discussed is what k wrote on. Thanks anyway. Maybe another time. Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2002 Report Share Posted November 28, 2002 Hi Tony, , "saktidasa" <saktidasa> wrote: > P.S. Happy Thanksgiving to all the Yanks ( Yengis/English). Let us > all give thanks but remember it isn't a good day for turkeys, and > an even worse day for Native North Americans. Are you aware that "food turkeys" are bred as such, and weigh too much to live long (will die within a couple months if not killed)? It's a shame... As for native North Americans, why should one day be different than another to any given human being, apart from artificially imposed distinctions? Surely it's worse on the turkeys (apart from human stupidity and self-imposed suffering). Cheers, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2002 Report Share Posted November 29, 2002 texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > > Re: collective unconscious Dear b I have heard all that before and even discussed it with you. What I have not discussed is what k wrote on. Thanks anyway. Maybe another time. Love Bobby G. Dearest Bobby, b didn't send this, i did. He's no longer a member here. i liked it so much, loved the clarity and simple sharing that i thought you might enjoy sharing it too. Sorry Dear for stepping in on the conversation with you and k. Maybe another time. LoveAlways, Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2002 Report Share Posted November 29, 2002 Dear Mazie; I clipped parts of the post you sent below. I thought the ideas you sent were intended as a statement regarding the futility of my statements about the collective unconscious. i read the first part signed by b and thought it was a continuation of an old discussion where we had disagreed. I am sorry my mind jumped to that conclusion obliterating your signature at the end. I am still not sure how I could read into your post that you thought anything about my post was clear or worthwhile. I don't mean that to sound harsh I just want you to see why I declined to discuss it at the time. My mind has saay sometimes but You are always welcome in my heart. Love Bobby G. We see our anger, our anxiety, our pomposity, our so-called spirituality. Real spirituality is just being with all that. If we can really be with who we are, Transformation occurs." ~Charlotte Joko Beck "You are only scratching the surface. It can't do you any good at all. What you hear must enter you like an arrow and hit something deep within you. There must be an internal reaction; without the reaction what you hear won't do you any good. You should know it when the arrow reaches its mark." ~Nisargadatta Enlightenment is not about words and thoughts and concepts which can be doubted. Enlightenment is always Here. Turn mind over into This Here and it is lost. Then only Light, Wisdom and Love remain and This you are not different or apart from. ~Papaji "By reason, you will achieve nothing. It then remains on the level of mind, and the mind is very clever. ~Bhai Sahib There is a parrot in you that God speaks through. What the parrot says, you see reflected in phenomena. The parrot takes away what you think you like and gives joy. She hurts you and you feel the perfect justice of the pain. You were burning up your soul to keep body delighted, but you didn't know what you were doing. I am another kind of fire. If you have trash to get rid of, bring it here. Rumi The belief that we have somehow not attained the state of who we actually Are is one of mind's ways of obstructing, or postponing, its own dethronement b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2002 Report Share Posted November 29, 2002 , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: Re: collective unconscious Dear Mazie; I clipped parts of the post you sent below. I thought the ideas you sent were intended as a statement regarding the futility of my statements about the collective unconscious. Hello again Dearest, and happily i say hello, i don't find anything futile at all. Futility is a word i can't find a place for. i appreciate your statements and thoroughly regard all your sharing as significant. If it's going on and i'm aware of it, it has as much significance as enlighenment. Simply as it is and isn't it so that every moment here is revelation, Heart Revelation. No gigantic thunderous divine applause, just the still calm stream of Being being what It Is - This. This exchange, this air and sunlight, this memory and vasanas and visions, this apple, this Satsangh, this Beauty unbearable, this moment when we are Heart to Heart - OneHeart. >i read the first part signed by b and thought it was a continuation of an old discussion where we had disagreed. I am sorry my mind jumped to that conclusion obliterating your signature at the end. ))) i find disagreeing completely agreeable. i try never to harbor any attachment to anything discussed in whatever way it is discussed, well, i think it just does not harbor in itSelf undo reactivity to exchanges and i don't even much attempt what already is in gear. How can i find offense knowing that each one offering their thoughts and experiences from Love, for that's all there is, has any agenda other than that the offering and sharing is from That Love alone? Maybe every signature is but That One Signature of Love, having many flairs and curlicues and endless varieties of ink and pens, but still One Signature only. >I am still not sure how I could read into your post that you thought anything about my post was clear or worthwhile. I don't mean that to sound harsh I just want you to see why I declined to discuss it at the time. ))) i find it all worthwhile, as mentioned above. i read the posts of my friends because i am interested, i do love to share in this Wonderful Mystery, i appreciate that any of you care enough to open yourselves up and allow us to share with each another our most intimate thoughts, our most treasured things held dear, our fears and wonders, i our life and death and everything in between. i appreciate such magnitude of Heart. You are my friend and i Love you. You are my Friend and i Love You. My mind has saay sometimes but You are always welcome in my heart. ))) As with this mind and Heart Dearest, as with this, you are always in my Heart. The welcome was embraced long ago in Joyous Remembrance. Love Bobby G. LoveAlways, Mazie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2002 Report Share Posted November 29, 2002 Very lovely Mazie, It is a pleasure to know you. Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 Re: Re: collective unconscious I got bounced for a few days and this post got returned. I am bouncing it back :-) Hi Tim, Hi Tony, who said...> P.S. Happy Thanksgiving to all the Yanks ( Yengis/English). Let us > all give thanks but remember it isn't a good day for turkeys, Tim writes: Are you aware that "food turkeys" are bred as such, and weigh too much to live long (will die within a couple months if not killed)? It's a shame... Joyce writes: Harsha has already blessed all the turkeys. There is not much more we can do now. Tony writes: and an even worse day for Native North Americans.Tim writes: As for native North Americans, why should one day be different than another to any given human being, apart from artificially imposed distinctions? Joyce writes: How you view each day is up to you. Thank you, God, for everything. I have no complaints. I offer you a Cherokee Lesson below...let the Native North Americans speak for themselves as to how they choose to view their days... ************************ A Cherokee Lesson An old man told me a story of a story told to him by another old man when he was young... An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside of me," he said to the boy. "It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil-he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other is good-he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. This same fight is going inside you-and inside every other person, too." The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather this question. "Which wolf will win?" The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed." ************************* For a story where the wolf of love devoured the wolf of hate, see the links below. A most beautiful story, of Frances Slocum, a young Quaker child abducted by Indians in 1778 when she was only around 4-5 years old, just at the beginning of the American Revolutionary War, a war which also involved England, did it not, Tim? :-) Weren't they called Tories back then? Killed a lot of Indians and colonists, as I recall. Anyway, back to Frances. She was born in Rhode Island in 1773. The family then moved to Pennsylvania, Wilkes-Barre, Pa, to be exact, to a house about a hop, a skip, and a jump away from where I was born, from where I grew up. Born a white Quaker child, she died an Indian woman, known as the White Rose of the Miamis. She was discovered in Indiana about 60 years after her disappearance, by a trader who also had a sharp eye for a head full of still auburn red curls shining in the firelight as she extended Indian hospitality to him, then told him her story when he questioned her directly...a story her family back in Wilkes-Barre had been waiting to hear and searching to find for over 60 years...she is known as the Lost Daughter of Wyoming. So...there was love among the carnage...hope for us all. That glimmer of hope. Shine little glow worm, glimmer, glimmer... http://www.leclerepublishing.com/kittybook1.html http://www.rootsweb.com/~scwhite/slocum/frances2.html http://www.gbl.indiana.edu/archives/miamis21/M78_1a.html /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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