remark on Truth must be narrow or be false

[Guest guest]

John: Finding "absolute truth" is not as easy as it looks.

If it is so simple, why are there so many denominations and sects

(over 1700 at last count) each proclaiming that they are the correct

interpretors of "divine revelation"?

---------

Joyce: Sri Ramakrishna: "Compare Brahmin to an ocean that is

shoreless. Through the cooling influence, as it were, of the

devotees intense love, the formless water has frozen, at place, into

ice blocks. That is to say, God sometimes reveals himself as a

Person and with forms to his devotees. Again, with the rising sun of

knowledge, the ice bocks melt away; then one does not see him as a

Person, nor does one see his forms. Who is there then to describe

whom? The ego has completely disappeared".

Pupil: "Sir, why are there so many divergent opinions about the nature of God?"

Sri Ramakrishna: "Really, they are not contradictory. As a man

realizes him, so does he express himself. If somehow one attains

him, then one finds no contradiction...Kabir used to say: "The

formless Absolute is my Father, and God with form is my Mother."

Pupil: "Sir, can one see God? If so, why can't we see him?"

Sri Ramakrishna: "Yes, he can assuredly be seen. One can see him

with form and one can see him also as formless."

Pupil: "Then by what means can one see him?"

Sri Ramakrishna: "Can you weep for him with a yearning heart? Men

shed a jugful of tears for their children or wife or money. But who

weeps for God? So long as the child remains engrossed with toys, the

mother is busy doing household duties. When the child gets tried of

the toys, throws them aside and crys for its mother, then the mother

runs in haste and takes the child in her arms."

Peace,

Joyce

[Guest guest]

There are so many denominations because people are

pridful,

 

There is only one JESUS and there is only one Bible

 

A true church will follow that one Scripture, which is

a sole account of a sole individual with a sole

mission.

 

(in reply to why is there 1700 sects)

 

 

 

Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

http://mailplus.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you again.

 

Firstly, the NAME Jesus is a fiction, even in English the correct

name is Yeshua.

Secondly, the Tanakh, the Jewish version of what is called the Old

Testament, is not arranged or translated the same way as the

Christian version, which was based on the Septuagint, a version

translated from Hebrew to Greek, with a number of linguistic and

semantic difficulties.

Thirdly, the language Yeshua spoke was Aramaic, not Hebrew, possibly

Greek. It is possible that he actually used the Greek version since

some of the quotations from the "Old Testament" are in the style of

the Greek version and not in the Hebrew version.

Fourthly, "One Bible", that's a joke. The King James Only people

proclaim that the KJV is superior to the Hebrew and the Greek because

it is the one that is truly inspired by the Holy Ghost. Of course,

the Holy Spirit must have been off that day because there are over

400 known errors in translation in the KJV.

 

Which "one Bible" are we talking about? There are so many

translations available that going into a Christian bookstore can lead

to a mind warp trying to decide which translation is best. There are

multiple Protestant versions and now there are several versions from

the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the correct Bible: Protestant or

Catholic?

 

And see my previous post about "language drift" and the problems of

translation.

 

Fifthly, "One Mission" is a problem as well. The very passage used to

define the Christian mission at the end of Matthew, only appears in

one place -- and is considered a later addition, added later, and is

apparently the works of later Christians, as it does not appear in

all manuscripts.

 

Sixth, "Sole account"? Sorry wrong again. Virtually every book of the

Bible was written by different people, and in some cases, clearly the

individual "books" have multiple authors, even spanning long periods

of time.

 

Seventh, "True Church"? Says who? There is certainly no agreement

here or there. Oh, that must be the one you go to, probably not the

one I go to. Let's see, the "Not-True Churches" must be heresies, so

all their members will burn in hell forever and ever for perverting

the "truth". Oh yeah, that explains why there will only be 144,000

people going to heaven (or are they already there?) according to the

Book of Revelations.

 

Hmmmmmm. "Red" and "2" aren't easily defined.

I wonder if "True Church" has a clear, simple, absolute definition,

likewise. No, I suspect not. It seems we have had at least 2000 years

of discussion and violence over the problem of defining the "true

Church".

 

"True Church" vs "False Church".

"True Religion" vs "False Religion".

 

Absolute thinking, coming from limited human minds leads to .....

September 11, 2001 and the Twin Towers.

 

Considered, penetrating thinking leads to a larger, wiser and more

humane viewpoint. Such thinking gets us beyond "names" and the need

to defend them, and leads us to the realities we are striving for.

 

I have heard the "Simple A-B-C" speech so often I am sick of it. Why?

Because it is quoted from a religious tract and I never hear of a

person's personal experience and direct encounter with God. And don't

tell me about going to a revival and meeting the Lord and then,

taking the Lord Jesus Christ into the heart, with the result that one

studies the scripture according to some denomination's version of

conversion, and come out spouting quotations, parrot-like.

 

Just once I would like to hear the report of a real encounter with

Spirit, which leads to a humane, compassionate life-style. I would

like to encounter those who are walking their walk instead of talking

their talk.

 

Funny thing, the ones who are walking their walk, are not arguing or

debating about the merits of one thing and another, are not worried

about whose religion is right or true, are not trying to convert

others with quotations and Bible thumping -- they convert others by

the way the live and operate, and express themselves in the glory of

their continued experience with the Divine Sacred Mysteries of Life.

 

Grady, I hope you come one day to understand Mazie. She speaks from

the heart and not the head or mouth or even mind. She spoke directly

to you and the words were all English -- but only your heart will

understand what she was saying and why. My hunch is Jesus (Yeshua)

would have understood her instantly, and smiled.

 

There is a hymn which says "My God is an awesome God..."

Do you have any idea how awesome "awesome" really is? It is so far

beyond "names" and "forms" and "absolutes", that only a truly open

mind and heart can begin to grasp its immensity. Through all the

words that is what is going on in this group. Virtually everyone here

is going beyond "names" and "forms" into the "Absolute" and even the

slightest encounter has blown apart the walls of limited thinking and

living. The world is indeed made new and those who are here in this

forum are expressing and dealing with the "more" that life is.

 

The "Absolute" that has been touched (even a small touch) by many

here leads to love and compassion, leads to new consciousness, a kind

of bliss, and a transformed being which leads to respect for all of

life, for all people, and an awareness of the sacred in ordinary

things. Many of the people here are praying for the pain and anguish

in those who are violent to others, that they may be free of their

pain and anguish, this in an atmosphere of healing and reconciliation.

There is no desire for such people to be punished in hell, rather to

be freed from the hell which they make for themselves.

 

The "prayers" which are given here, may be formal, but I suspect that

mostly they wouldn't be recognized as "prayer" by most church-goers.

Why? Because it comes from what the individuals are "being"

and "living" rather than ritualizing.

 

Well, I've gone on enough again,

Peace,

John L.

 

, grady little <gradyll>

wrote:

> There are so many denominations because people are

> pridful,

>

> There is only one JESUS and there is only one Bible

>

> A true church will follow that one Scripture, which is

> a sole account of a sole individual with a sole

> mission.

>

> (in reply to why is there 1700 sects)

>

>

>

> Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

> http://mailplus.

[Guest guest]

"John Logan " wrote:

Just once I would like to hear the report of a real encounter

with

Spirit, which leads to a humane, compassionate

life-style. I would

like to encounter those who are walking their walk instead of talking

their talk.

you first

[Guest guest]

Dear John your concerns are not your own, I too have

many questions, maybe some of this research may help,

please ask any questions you like on this I will

answer when time permits

 

Written on material that perishes, having to be copied

and recopied for hundreds of years before the

invention of the printing press, did not diminish its

style, correctness nor existence. The Bible, compared

with other ancient writings, has more manuscript

evidence than any ten pieces of classical literature

combined.

 

UNIQUE IN IT¡¦S TEACHINGS

Prophecy:

 

The Bible is the only volume ever produced by man, or

a group of men in which is to be found a large body of

prophecies relating to individual nations, to Israel,

to all the peoples of the earth, to certain cities,

and to the coming of One who was to be the Messiah.

The ancient world had many different devices for

determining the future, known as divination, but not

in the entire gamut of Greek and Latin literature,

even though they use the words ¡¥prophet¡¦ and

¡¥prophecy,¡¦ can we find any real specific prophecy;

whereas in the Bible this type of prophecy is very

prevalent. Mohammedanism cannot point o any

prophecies of the coming of Mohammed uttered hundreds

of years before his birth. Neither can the founders

of any cult in this country rightly identify any

ancient text and specifically foretell their

appearance.\

 

History:

>From I Samuel through II Chronicles one finds the

history of Israel, covering about five centuries.

The Cambridge Ancient History, (Vol. I, p. 222) says:

¡§The Israelites certainly manifest a genius for

historical construction, and the Old Testament

embodies the oldest history writing extant.¡¨ Also

Wilber Smith cites the distinguished archaeologist,

Professor Albright: ¡§Hebrew national tradition

excels all others in its clear picture of tribal and

family origins. In Egypt and Babylonia, in Assyria

and Phoenicia, in Greece and Rome, we look in vain for

anything comparable.¡¨

 

Examples of Prophecy:

1. 748 years prior to the birth of Jesus God told the

Prophet Isaiah that mankind would recognize the

Messiah/Savior when he would be born of a virgin.

[Predicted: Isaiah 7:14/ Fulfilled: Luke 1:34]

2. Over Seven Centuries before the birth of Christ God

told the Prophet Isaiah that mankind would recognize

the Messiah/Savior when he would suffer and be

despised. [Predicted: Isaiah 53:3/ Fulfilled: Luke

23:18]

3. Well over half a Millennium before Jesus was even a

thought in His mothers head God spoke to Isaiah the

Prophet ¡¥You will recognize the Messiah when He is

buried with the rich,¡¦ even though society was poor.

[Predicted: Isaiah 53:9/ Fulfilled: Matthew 27:9]

4. 748 years prior to the birth of Jesus God told the

Prophet Isaiah that ¡¥You will recognize the Messiah

when He is born of a virgin.¡¦ [Predicted: Isaiah

7:14/ Fulfilled: Luke 1:34]

5. Seven hundred years before Christ was born God told

the Prophet Micah that ¡¥You will recognize the

Messiah when He is born in Bethlehem/ The city of

David.¡¦ Christ was so much predicted by scripture

that when Herod attempted to determine where the

Savior Child would be born the Scribes immediately

quoted this verse. [Predicted: Micah 5:2 (697B.C.)

/ Fulfilled: Luke 2:4-7]

6. Over 800 years before Jesus God told the prophet

Zechariah that ¡¥You will recognize the Messiah when

He is pierced.¡¦ (meaning crucified). It¡¦s

interesting to notice that crucifixion was unknown

when this was predicted. The norm for Capital

Punishment was Stoning.

 

 

7. Not until 90B.C. was Crucifixion even established.

So this prophecy also predicted the Roman usage of

Crucifixion well over 7 Centuries beforehand.

[Predicted: Zechariah 12:10 / Fulfilled: John 19:37]

8. 500 years prior to Jesus coming God told the

prophet Zechariah that ¡¥You will recognize the

Messiah when He is betrayed, and that for 30 pieces of

silver, and that this silver would buy a Potters

field.¡¦ [Predicted: Zechariah 11:12-13 / Fulfilled:

Matthew 27:3-10]

9. Again, Over Seven Centuries before the birth of

Christ God told the Prophet Isaiah that the time span

between the Commandment to restore and rebuild

Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah would be

exactly 476* years. (*seven=heptid). We know from

any historical record that the order was in fact

issued on March 14, 445B.C. When you add 173,880 days

(476yrs) to the 14th of March, 445B.C. you come to

April 6, A.D.32. Palm Sunday, The exact day Jesus

entered triumphantly and openly into Jerusalem.

[Predicted: Daniel 9:25/ Fulfilled: Luke 23:18] To

see calculations of years see the endnote- # ( ƒx )

at end of Document, 2nd to last page.

What The Bible Is

If you took at the Bible in its broadest sense, it is

simply a history book-a record of the times God has

interjected Himself into human history. The Bible is

God showing Himself to man, telling us what He is

like, what is in store for us, what pleases Him, what

displeases Him, where we came from, and where we are

going.

 

Old Testament / New Testament

 

The Old Testament was written before Jesus Christ was

born (B.C. means "before Christ"), while the New

Testament was written after He died and rose again

(A.D. means "Anno Domini" or "year of our Lord" or

¡§After Death¡¨). They are called the Old and New

Testaments because they refer to the agreements

existing between God and man before and after the

sacrifice of Christ. Before Christ came and died on

the cross, those wanting to follow God had to obey

hundreds of laws which had been set down by God

through Moses. But when Jesus Christ was sacrificed on

the cross, He brought us a New Testament, or new

agreement, between God and those who wished to follow

Him. His blood sacrifice upon the cross at Calvary

paid the price for our sins and offers us a way to the

Father. We are no longer under the old agreement, but

a lot of important things from the Old Testament still

apply to us, and we should study and learn from the

whole of Scripture.

 

Who Wrote The Bible?

 

The Bible is not just one book; it's actually

sixty-six books written by over forty different

authors over a period of 1500 years. These authors

include a spectrum of people, from common laborers to

the most powerful world leaders ever to walk the face

of the earth: kings, statesmen, prophets, rabbis, a

physician, a tax collector, a farmer, a fisherman, and

others.

 

HOW DID WE GET THE BIBLE?

 

Even though the Bible is written by various

¡¥imperfect¡¦ people the real author of the Bible is

the Holy Spirit. The Bible is the inspired, inerrant,

infallible, and final revelation of God. In II

Timothy 3:16, we read that all Scripture is

"God-breathed" meaning that, even though humans wrote

it on paper, its ultimate source was God. The

Watchtower Society will accuse our Bible as being

¡¥changed or altered with by the Roman Catholic

Church¡¦ before 670 A.D. when Rome was in charge of

the widely used Latin Vulgate. But nevertheless such

versions as the King James Version are completely

derived from Massoretic, Receptus and Greek texts

(rather than Latin).

 

Through Inspiration!

 

INSPIRATION: ¡§The act of God by which His

revelation is communicated in written form¡¨

II Timothy 3:16-17; II Peter 1:19-21

Inspiration refers to the writings not the writers ¡V

Every writing in

 

 

 

the Bible is said to be ¡§God breathed.¡¨

 

 

Inspiration refers to the control of the Holy Spirit

over the writers so that what was written was exactly

what God intended ¡V John 14:26; 16:13; II Peter

1:20-21

 

¡§The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and his word was

in my tongue¡¨

II Samuel 23:2

 

¡§¡¨For David himself said, by the Holy Spirit¡¨

Mark 12:36

 

¡§¡¨Which the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spoke

concerning Judas¡¨ - Acts 1:16

 

¡§Well spoke the Holy Spirit by Isaiah, the prophet,

unto our fathers¡¨

Acts 28:25

 

Inspiration is the work of God, using prophets and

apostles as human channels of His revelation to us

 

¡¥Inspiration¡¦ means that every word, every number,

every place name is there by divine placement. It is

important to realize that inspiration refers directly

to the original autographs written in Hebrew and Greek

(some Aramaic portions and words), and does not refer

to any apocryphal or non-canonical literature.

 

What is the Canon?

 

The word ¡¥canon¡¦ was used first by Athanasius in 367

a.d. to refer to the collection of authoritative and

inspired writings. The

 

Old Testament ¡¥canon¡¦ was evaluated strongly by the

counsel of Jamnia in 90 a.d. Some books were disputed

(such as Song of Solomon for its sensuality,

Ecclesiastes for its secular emphasis, and Esther for

its failure to mention the name of ¡§God.¡¨), but

clearly established to be canonical on the basis of

both external and internal evidences. See

Authorship below:

 

The apocrypha:

 

A collection of ancient Jewish writings written

between 300b.c. and 100 a.d. ¡V means ¡§ hidden¡¨ -

regarded as canonical by the Roman Catholic Church at

the Council of Trent (1540-46 a.d.), but rejected by

protestants.

Seven reasons for rejecting apocrypha and any other

books (Book of Mormon, New World Trans, Solomon¡¦s

writings etc.)

 

1. writings were not originally included in the Bible

of Jesus and the early church

2. Never quoted in the Bible

3. Church father¡¦s separated them from the ¡¥canon¡¦

4. Not included as ¡¥scripture¡¦ until Council of

Trent, 1500 years later.

5. Historical and geographical inaccuracies

6. lack of prophetic spirit

7. lower level of writing than the Bible

 

note: New Testament refers to Apocrypha in Jude 14

and Hebrews 11:35 but does not cite it as Holy

Scripture. It cites it the same way Paul referred to

heathen poets (Acts 17:28).

 

 

What are Manuscripts?

 

No manuscripts are complete, most are small fragments

of phrases, but the Byzantine text is the most

complete.

 

I. Byzantine text- began with Chrysostom, and included

the majority of manuscripts, and was universally read

and accepted by the church, often called Textus

Receptus, or the ¡§Received Text.¡¨

II. Western text - most frequently quoted in the

church fathers, and primarily based on the Latin

manuscript evidence.

III. Alexandrian text - an Egyptian tradition,

encouraged by Origen ¡V promoted in modern times by

Westcott and Hort¡¦s revision of the Greek Text ¡V

based primarily upon two manuscripts (MSS-plural),

Codex Sinaiticus, and Codex Vaticanus. This tradition

has become the foundation of most modern English

translations in the 20th Century.

IV. Codex Vaticanus - reported to be in the Vatican

Library since 1481 a.d. ¡V written on vellum with 3

columns and no ornamentation. It ends at Hebrews

9:14, and excluded the Pastoral Epistles and

Revelation. It contains 7579 changes from the Textus

Receptus, and also contains the Apocryphal books in

the Old Testament.

V. Codex Sinaiticus - over half of the leaves are

missing; it contains the Epistle of Barnabas and the

Shepherd of Hermes (both non Canonical); it contains

9000 changes from the Textus Receptus. The Vaticanus

and Sinaiticus MSS differ in the gospels over 3000

times with each other! Tischendorf changed his 8th

edition of the Greek text in 3369 places when compared

with his 7th edition, all on the basis of the one

Codex Sinaiticus! On ONE! That is dangerous!

Why added wordage is dangerous ¡VThe condition of

these MSS (beautiful by comparison with others) make

them highly suspicious ¡V they don¡¦t look used as

they should have been. It is possible that Rome could

have altered, not saying they did. But it is

technically possible. There are good versions out,

like NIV and sometimes NASB or NRSV. But many people

like Morgan and other scholars believe some scriptures

in NT were ¡§Late Intruders¡¨, meaning after the 3rd

century canon.

 

But if you stick to KJV you really can¡¦t go wrong. I

am not married to the King James, but I do find myself

coming back to it¡¦s beautiful Shakespeare-ian

language. I am not King James only, just King James

Preferably. The NLT, NKJV, LIVING, AMPLIFIED, THE

MESSAGE, GOD¡¦s WORD, CEV, NAB, TEV, NIrV, are all

acceptable translations and paraphrases for ease of

readability but not for reference A good example of

this is in 1 John 5:7 where FF Bruce says this is a

¡§Late intruder¡¨ But on the contrary because the KJV

uses more manuscripts that are more complete, it would

naturally include it. In fact over 99 percent of MSS

include this verse. But no one will tell you this.

According to Bible Scholar David Hocking the KJV is

right and ¡§Even the study Bible¡¦s are wrong Here.¡¨

The evidence of the Papyri MSS of the 20th century

a.d. was not available for the Greek text of Westcott

and Hort. The Papyri evidence is much older that

these two MSS and, by and large, supports the readings

of the Textus Receptus.

 

Authorship-

 

To be part of the ¡¥canon¡¦ it was essential that a

book be written by a recognized prophet or apostle,

not some self made modern day prophet ¡V Ephesians

2:20; 3:3-5

To be part of the ¡¥canon¡¦ of the Bible, evidence of

divine inspiration must be proven by the testimony of

the writers themselves, by Jesus Christ Himself, by

eyewitnesses of what is recorded, by the witness of

the Holy Spirit in the believers as they read the

books, and by archaeological and historical accuracy.

 

 

Also it needed to be circulated, read, and accepted

already without reservation as being Divinely inspired

by the believers in the early church. They did not

take any doubtful books only those which were chosen

by unanimous decisions. When in doubt, throw it out.

If it¡¦s new it¡¦s not true, if it¡¦s true it¡¦s not

new.

 

We know they did a good job because no one even

doubted their works for well over a thousand years,

but it didn¡¦t work!!! We still have the same bible

and we know this because overall with the 5553 Greek

manuscripts and 10,000 Latin manuscripts and another

4000in various other languages, plus over 86,000

separate references quoted in the writings of church

fathers, we have a volume of evidence that is

unparalleled in the history of ancient writings.

 

--- "John Logan <johnrloganis"

<johnrloganis wrote:

> Sorry, I have to disagree with you again.

>

> Firstly, the NAME Jesus is a fiction, even in

> English the correct

> name is Yeshua.

> Secondly, the Tanakh, the Jewish version of what is

> called the Old

> Testament, is not arranged or translated the same

> way as the

 

 

 

Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

http://mailplus.

[Guest guest]

> Dear John your concerns are not your own,

 

Just what does this mean.

 

I have studied these issues for more years than you are alive.

And the evil that has been done by Christians in the name of God and

the Bible, based on very bad theology derived from misinterpretations

of the language and the intent.

 

It is all like the "Bible Code", diddle with it enough and you can

make it say anything you like. Recognize that, and then you can dig

really deep into it and have truly spiritual experiences with the

Real Spirit, rather than all the quoted phrases learned at the feet

of men.

 

"Be still, and know that I am God,

and I will guide thee, and instruct thee

in the way in which thou shouldst go.

I will counsel you with My eye upon you."

-- Ps 46:10b + Ps 32:8

 

Talk to me about what you know, not what has been given to you by

someone else. The Bible is a map, it is not the living territory.

Any scripture, any writing is a map, no matter how sacred or divinely

inspired it is. Until it is lived in the Spirit it is not alive.

 

For instance, one can study a language foreign to his understanding.

It can be studied, but until it is actually spoken and written the

language is forever out of reach. Reading critical works one may

quote those scholars who have studied the language, and such a one

may become very glib in talking about the merits and demerits of the

language, but until it is spoken and written it is just words, and it

is not alive in the person.

 

Peace and blessings be with you,

live in the joy of the Divine,

 

John L.