Re:John/ Joyce/Upanishads?

[Guest guest]

Hi Joyce,

Hi John,

John: It has been a while.

Joyce: Yes, I've missed you.

John: The symbology of the frozen blocks of ice floating in the ocean is

most interesting in the context of the discussion.

Joyce: Yes, frozen-ness and boxes great metaphors. I have recently

launched back into Kundalini Yoga to work on frozen places. I seem to

have earned a free T Shirt and a gold pin for not missing 40 says of

straight practice.

John: I suspect Grady

would not accept the identification of Brahman with God as he

understands it.

Joyce: Well, laugh! I've just discovered the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali,

how these seem to echo Buddhism, for sure are a great assist to

practice and, posting my delight with this on a Buddhist list,

managed to provoke profound aversion (it's that word "Self" that

causes such a flap...I think that one lives in a mental box until one

grows enough that the box starts to really pinch, and then one has to

find a bigger box or drop all boxes. No matter what one says or

does, someone will always call you a heretic.

I suppose that any conceptual notion of "God" is what would keep one

from God...kind of like a graven image.

"This that people say, "Worship this God! Worship that God! One God

after another. The entire world is his creation and he himself all

the gods. He has entered into this world, even to the tips of one's

fingernails, like the razor in a razor case, like fire in firewood.

Him they see not; for as seen, he is incomplete." (Brihadaranyaka

Upanishad)

I'm looking for something on the Upanishads and what I've found on

www. is a bit much for a beginner. Have you looked into this? Any

advice on how to tackle them? A book? a good site? Stupid question

(blush) but is there something in the Upanishads that is a yogic

practice?

Peace,

Joyce

[Guest guest]

Hi Joyce,

 

This is a territory I love. Comments inline.

 

But before I start a comment on "God". I am fond of the Native

American traditions view. In virtually every Native American language

the "name" of God either means "Creator" or "The Great Mystery" --

and they don't try to define it any further than that. I personally

like Zenna Henderson's rendering: The Presence and the Power.

Alternatively, in China it is just TAO and is seen as undefineable.

 

Discovering the Yoga Sutras.

The Buddhists are in so many "boxes" they are trapped in time and

tradition. The "Direct Experience" schools like some Zen and the

Tibetan material you turned me onto evade many of the labels, but

only succeed in acquiring new ones. Toni Packer is a Zen Buddhist who

has had to opt out of ZCLA in consequence of the "ritual" aspects she

found there (as one example).

 

Now jump below...

 

, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...>

wrote:

> Joyce: Well, laugh! I've just discovered the Yoga Sutras of

Patanjali, how

> these seem to echo Buddhism, for sure are a great assist to

practice and,

> posting my delight with this on a Buddhist list, managed to provoke

profound

> aversion (it's that word "Self" that causes such a flap...I think

that one

> lives in a mental box until one grows enough that the box starts to

really

> pinch, and then one has to find a bigger box or drop all boxes. No

matter

> what one says or does, someone will always call you a heretic.

>

> I suppose that any conceptual notion of "God" is what would keep

one from

> God...kind of like a graven image.

>

> "This that people say, "Worship this God! Worship that God! One God

after

> another. The entire world is his creation and he himself all the

gods. He

> has entered into this world, even to the tips of one's fingernails,

like the

> razor in a razor case, like fire in firewood. Him they see not; for

as seen,

> he is incomplete." (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad)

>

> I'm looking for something on the Upanishads and what I've found on

www. is a

> bit much for a beginner. Have you looked into this? Any advice on

how to

> tackle them? A book? a good site? Stupid question (blush) but is

there

> something in the Upanishads that is a yogic practice?

 

 

What I can give you to answer your questions? The material is massive

and needs some paring down. The short course is

 

The Vedas are like the Old Testament book of Psalms, with a lot more

material than the Psalms. A very mixed bag of shamanic based material

bridging into the mystical.

 

The Upanishads are philosophical summaries of the core teachings and

principles of the Vedas.

 

A whole variety of commentaries and training manuals are built upon

these sources, most of what you are interested in will be found in

the Upanishads.

 

The Bhagavad Gita is a "yogic" oriented summary of all the Upanishads

of which there are 13 "Principal Upanishads"

 

"The Yoga Sutras" were actually teaching notes made by Patanjali

because the Hindus teach the movement into the "dark time" of Kali

Yuga (a period of many years we are still in) would include loss of

memory by the elder teachers of oral traditions about Yoga, and he

noticed that that was happening.

 

There is a companion, THE HATHA YOGA PRADAPIKA, which details much of

the more physical side of the practice, but including principles and

philosophy as well. Of all the material on Hatha Yoga, this is the

most worthwhile IMHO.

 

Now as time went on in more modern time, and as Kali Yuga has begun

waning, the elder teachers of the last century began serious efforts

to revive the ancients teaching and recover their truths. This led to

the development of THE VEDANTA SOCIETY with headquarters in India and

in Los Angeles. The society in Los Angeles has a library and

bookstore and is on the web.

 

"Vedanta" refers to a kind of restoration of Vedic-based thinking and

practice, and therefore to a present day emphasis on the Vedas, the

Upanishads, The Bhagavad Gita, and the Yoga Sutras.

 

Actually in earlier years I taught courses on the Yoga Sutras, and

some of the students have gone on to become teachers of others --

which hasn't happened in anything else I taught, except some courses

in the Wisdom of the Tarot and the I Ching. The Yoga Sutras have much

potent information and need to be penetrated deeply, because they are

teaching notes. Some of the sentences in the original are not even

complete sentences, rather they are just ideas jotted down for the

teacher to elaborate on.

 

NOW...I will list my suggested bibliography of the authors and

editors I respect the most (to answer your question). [be wary when

getting into Hinduism, it is easy to get enmeshed in an incredible

array of materials. Hinduism is vast in its literature and practice

and many of them are quite potent! Keep it simple.]

 

THE VEDAS

Don't bother, all of the translations are limited, require extensive

commentaries, and are a very mixed bag of everything from the

grossest forms of magic to elevated mystical insights. I haven't

found a decent translation, or anything like a complete translation.

The Vedas are actually quite large. Better to go on to the next group.

 

THE UPANISHADS

There are many Upanishads which summarize the Vedas very well, are

well translated, and have adequate commentaries. As with most

translations, it is a good idea to have several and compare to get

the sense and the overtones. There are literally hundreds of

Upanishads but fortunately there are 12-15 Principal Upanishads,

easily accessible and they will keep you quite busy. Most of the

other Upanishads are either trivial or redundant to the 13.

 

There are three excellent collections:

1) Radhakrishnan, THE PRINCIPAL UPANISHADS

Some of his material shows a Christian bias, as in his translation

of the Dhammapada. He was on the defensive because of attacks by

Christians so he was trying to "relate" to them. I don't think that

has affected his translation of the Upanishads, which for a long time

was considered the classic translation used in University courses.

2) Eknath Easwaran, THE UPANISHADS

Very readable, good introduction, and useful concise commentaries,

index, glossary. 15 of the Upanishads

3) Patrick Olivette, UPANISHADS

Not quite a readable, excellent and lengthy introduction, 12 of

the Principal Upanishads, with a lot of notes, fair index,

glossary.

 

Nos. 2) and 3) are in paperback, the Eknath Easwaran translation is

easier on my eyes.

 

THE BHAGAVAD GITA

This is considered the core of Indian philosophy and practice.

 

1) Eknath Easwaran, THE BHAGAVAD GITA

Good introduction, glossary, readable.

2) Ghandi, THE BHAGAVAD GITA

Wonderful and thoughtful translation with commentary, with

Ghandi's spin on it but that's OK. You could spend the rest of your

life on this one. Very personal, and very personally applied.

3) Winthrop Sargeant, THE BHAGAVAD GITA

The definitive translation. Get this one above all. It has the

original language, then a word for word lexical gloss, followed by

his translation. Studying just one verse the way he handles it is a

spiritual experience. He makes it a string of jewel-concepts like the

beads on a mala.

 

Of the Upanishads, I don't have a preference.

Of the Bhagavad Gita, I would recommend at least 2) and 3).

 

Finally, THE YOGA SUTRAS

1) The best translation is by Hugh D'Andrade, and it unfortunately is

out of print. It was printed in a limited edition and he died before

it was reprinted.

 

2) Vivekananda, RAJA YOGA

Published by the Vedanta Society. It is an excellent translation

with commentary. In the commentary it relates the Yoga Sutras to

other Yogas, especially, Bhakti and Karma Yoga.

 

3) Alistair Shearer, THE YOGA SUTRAS OF PATANJALI

Modern translation with an excellent introduction. Worthwhile.

 

4) George Feuerstein, THE YOGA-SUTRA OF PATANJALI

The definitive work. It is a must have translation. Like the

Winthrop Sargeant, BHAGAVAD GITA, it includes the original language,

word for word lexical gloss plus inline commentary. Outstanding.

Includes excellent introduction, glossaries, indices.

 

Sorry for the length of this, but I hope it is helpful.

Anyone who bothers to read this also. I would be interested in your

comments.

 

Metta,

John L.

[Guest guest]

"John Logan " wrote:

Sorry for the length of this, but I hope it is helpful.

Anyone who bothers to read this also. I would

be interested in your

comments.

Metta,

John L.

You sound very smart

[Guest guest]

Dear John,

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. You are an

accomplished scholar and a teacher. As you know, there

are many good commentaries on yoga sutras and you

mentioned some good ones.

 

The Heart of Yoga by Desikachar is a nice recent book

for people just being exposed to it. Desikchar is the

son of Krishmacharya who was an accomplished Hath

yogi. Iyengar is Krishmacharya's brother in law.

 

The Heart of Yoga covers various aspects of Hatha Yoga

and gives a brief commentary on each sutra. The

translation of Patanjali's sutras and the commentary

is not that true to the original but tries to put

things in a common context for someone just beginning

to get into the stuff.

 

Thanks again for your generous sharing. By the way, I

loved Hatha Yoga Pradipka and practiced with much

delight and joy in my younger days!

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

--- "John Logan <johnrloganis"

<johnrloganis wrote:

> Hi Joyce,

>

> This is a territory I love. Comments inline.

>

> But before I start a comment on "God". I am fond of

> the Native

> American traditions view. In virtually every Native

> American language

> the "name" of God either means "Creator" or "The

> Great Mystery" --

> and they don't try to define it any further than

> that. I personally

> like Zenna Henderson's rendering: The Presence and

> the Power.

> Alternatively, in China it is just TAO and is seen

> as undefineable.

>

> Discovering the Yoga Sutras.

> The Buddhists are in so many "boxes" they are

> trapped in time and

> tradition. The "Direct Experience" schools like some

> Zen and the

> Tibetan material you turned me onto evade many of

> the labels, but

> only succeed in acquiring new ones. Toni Packer is a

> Zen Buddhist who

> has had to opt out of ZCLA in consequence of the

> "ritual" aspects she

> found there (as one example).

>

 

 

=====

/join

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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