Ques: John/ Harsha/Upanishads - Harsha? Bob? Anyone?

[Guest guest]

Hi Joyce,

Perhaps, but the real action is going to come from within you.

The Ultimate Guru or teacher is within you, and has the guidance you

need.

 

I can't speak for Harsha, but what I get out of the Sutras is

filtered through my consciousness and my needs -- and that view may

not be appropriate for you.

 

I would be willing to dialogue with you a bit, if you share what it

means to you and we can share about that. I am not willing to take on

the whole thing one sutra at a time. Only the ones which strike a

bell with you, or for which you have a question, if I have a comment.

 

Bob Graham (BigBob) is also a long studied disciple of the Yoga

Sutras and his input would also be quite beneficial. Actually the

thrust here is more or less Advaita, with emphasis on Ramana Maharshi

and the like.

 

So I think I would want Harsha to respond as to whether it is

appropriate to make a big study of the Yoga Sutras, since they teach

the path of Ashtangha Yoga, another Noble Eightfold Path, where as

the path indicated by the Advaita Vedantists is a path of point to

direct realization through the self, beyond the self, being

Sat-Chit-Ananda, realizing the oneness with Brahman, the Absolute.

 

On the other hand, the Yoga Sutras begin by pointing out that we are

surrounded by clouds of ignorance separating us from the truth and

from God and from a direct realization of who we really are. So it is

dedicated to dispersing those clouds and offers many pathways as

appropriate for doing just that.

 

As I see it each "sutra" is a description of a problem and

multidimensonally offers the solution at the same time. The layers in

each sutra must be penetrated deeply in awareness, experience, and

practice. They are to be lived with until the meaning for the

receiver "ripens".

 

Comments anyone, especially Harsha and Bob,

John L.

 

 

, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...>

wrote:

>

>

>

> Dear John and Harsha,

>

> Harsha: Thanks for sharing your knowledge. You are an

> accomplished scholar and a teacher. As you know, there

> are many good commentaries on yoga sutras and you

> mentioned some good ones.

>

> Joyce: Thank you both so much! I have printed out both your

excellent

> recommendations.

>

> I have "Light on the Yoga Sutras" by B.K.S Iyengar, also a

commentary on the

> Samadhi Pada by Baba Hari Dass. Interestingly, this work was first

taught

> by a master who has kept silence since 1952. He taught by writing

on a

> chalk board. So perhaps he has only been able to comment on the

first book -

> smile.

>

> I would agree that for sure one can find these in Tibetan Buddhism

AND in

> the Pali Canon. One can memorize the short sutras, understand the

commentary

> conceptually as much as one has the capacity for, and then let them

cook.

> Rather as I thought the Buddhist Suttas were intended to be used

before

> these were in some parts turned into ritual and religious beliefs.

>

> I'm wondering if perhaps if I wrote out the short Sutras one by

one, either

> of you, or both, and anyone else, would be willing to comment,

anything that

> comes to mind and within the limits of what is possible on a list

and

> relative to your own time and energy. It is always an interesting

challenge

> to discover what is most essential in any text.

>

> Peace,

> Joyce

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your comments John. Yes, Patanjali's sutras

would be great to discuss and talk about. BigBob is

the expert here.

 

My favorite sutra is something like, "Now the seer

rests in his own nature".

 

My comment is:

 

The Seer, pure consciousness, fully awake, and resting

as consciousness in It Self -- That is Advaita!

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

 

--- "John Logan <johnrloganis"

<johnrloganis wrote:

> Hi Joyce,

> Perhaps, but the real action is going to come from

> within you.

> The Ultimate Guru or teacher is within you, and has

> the guidance you

> need.

>

> I can't speak for Harsha, but what I get out of the

> Sutras is

> filtered through my consciousness and my needs --

> and that view may

> not be appropriate for you.

>

> I would be willing to dialogue with you a bit, if

> you share what it

> means to you and we can share about that. I am not

> willing to take on

> the whole thing one sutra at a time. Only the ones

> which strike a

> bell with you, or for which you have a question, if

> I have a comment.

>

> Bob Graham (BigBob) is also a long studied disciple

> of the Yoga

> Sutras and his input would also be quite beneficial.

> Actually the

> thrust here is more or less Advaita, with emphasis

> on Ramana Maharshi

> and the like.

>

> So I think I would want Harsha to respond as to

> whether it is

> appropriate to make a big study of the Yoga Sutras,

> since they teach

> the path of Ashtangha Yoga, another Noble Eightfold

> Path, where as

> the path indicated by the Advaita Vedantists is a

> path of point to

> direct realization through the self, beyond the

> self, being

> Sat-Chit-Ananda, realizing the oneness with Brahman,

> the Absolute.

>

> On the other hand, the Yoga Sutras begin by pointing

> out that we are

> surrounded by clouds of ignorance separating us from

> the truth and

> from God and from a direct realization of who we

> really are. So it is

> dedicated to dispersing those clouds and offers many

> pathways as

> appropriate for doing just that.

>

> As I see it each "sutra" is a description of a

> problem and

> multidimensonally offers the solution at the same

> time. The layers in

> each sutra must be penetrated deeply in awareness,

> experience, and

> practice. They are to be lived with until the

> meaning for the

> receiver "ripens".

>

> Comments anyone, especially Harsha and Bob,

> John L.

 

 

=====

/join

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Joyce Harsha and John:

 

Patanjali is good for some people but it seems that others don't need

him. They go straight to the source within them I guess.

 

In Vivekanandas translation he speaks about visionaries who encounter

God or have some incredible experience but attribute it to whatever

religion they are brought up in and the vision is created by the mind

to fit the images of their belief. He used Mohammed as an example

and showed how a bonafide experience could lead to misinterpretation

if the person is not prepared by a discipline such as Raja Yoga.

 

I have been on the Advaitin List a few times and it might be a good

place to read up on these upanishads, Joyce. I know you are a

regular there Harsha. A search there would probably have something

on just about every topic I imagine.

 

The only one I have is Aitreya Upanisad with commentary by Shankara

which is all I needed. It seems to say enough to keep me satisfied.

Brahmin is Consciousness and the Ego is king of the senses (Indra).

They share dominion over the body.

 

Your posts have a good energy John. Thanks

 

Love

Bobby G.

 

 

, Harsha <harshaimtm> wrote:

> Thanks for your comments John. Yes, Patanjali's sutras

> would be great to discuss and talk about. BigBob is

> the expert here.

>

> My favorite sutra is something like, "Now the seer

> rests in his own nature".

>

> My comment is:

>

> The Seer, pure consciousness, fully awake, and resting

> as consciousness in It Self -- That is Advaita!

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

>

>

> --- "John Logan <johnrloganis>"

> <johnrloganis> wrote:

> > Hi Joyce,

> > Perhaps, but the real action is going to come from

> > within you.

> > The Ultimate Guru or teacher is within you, and has

> > the guidance you

> > need.

> >

> > I can't speak for Harsha, but what I get out of the

> > Sutras is

> > filtered through my consciousness and my needs --

> > and that view may

> > not be appropriate for you.

> >

> > I would be willing to dialogue with you a bit, if

> > you share what it

> > means to you and we can share about that. I am not

> > willing to take on

> > the whole thing one sutra at a time. Only the ones

> > which strike a

> > bell with you, or for which you have a question, if

> > I have a comment.

> >

> > Bob Graham (BigBob) is also a long studied disciple

> > of the Yoga

> > Sutras and his input would also be quite beneficial.

> > Actually the

> > thrust here is more or less Advaita, with emphasis

> > on Ramana Maharshi

> > and the like.

> >

> > So I think I would want Harsha to respond as to

> > whether it is

> > appropriate to make a big study of the Yoga Sutras,

> > since they teach

> > the path of Ashtangha Yoga, another Noble Eightfold

> > Path, where as

> > the path indicated by the Advaita Vedantists is a

> > path of point to

> > direct realization through the self, beyond the

> > self, being

> > Sat-Chit-Ananda, realizing the oneness with Brahman,

> > the Absolute.

> >

> > On the other hand, the Yoga Sutras begin by pointing

> > out that we are

> > surrounded by clouds of ignorance separating us from

> > the truth and

> > from God and from a direct realization of who we

> > really are. So it is

> > dedicated to dispersing those clouds and offers many

> > pathways as

> > appropriate for doing just that.

> >

> > As I see it each "sutra" is a description of a

> > problem and

> > multidimensonally offers the solution at the same

> > time. The layers in

> > each sutra must be penetrated deeply in awareness,

> > experience, and

> > practice. They are to be lived with until the

> > meaning for the

> > receiver "ripens".

> >

> > Comments anyone, especially Harsha and Bob,

> > John L.

>

>

> =====

> /join

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

> http://mailplus.

[Guest guest]

Hello Harsha, John and Friends,

 

Here is a comment that I wrote on Patanjali's first two sutras:

 

The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali are said to be his masterpiece.

Patanjali is credited with first creating the written language

of Sanskrit, then his great work on Ayurveda and finally Yoga (no one

knows for sure if Patanjali existed or if that name represents a

compilation of sages wisdom).

 

 

~~~

 

The first sutra can be translated as:

 

Now - Yoga

 

The significance of the placement and meaning of the word 'now'

and its relationship with the word 'yoga' cannot be overstated.

 

Patanjali who is said to be the 'father of yoga' chooses to

place the word 'now' in first place - even before 'yoga' which is what

this masterpiece is all about (the 'Yoga Sutras' is said to be

Patanjali's greatest work because it is spiritual - the practice of

Ayuveda, or, the science of life, medicine and health, is considereed

to be a lesser understanding than the 'spiritual' or essence which is

yoga).

 

Another aspect of the way that this is presented is to say that

'now' and 'yoga' are the same thing - they are 'two in one' and

writing these 'two', 'together' allows them to be 'two' and 'one' at

the same time (and there are all the other implications of what

the words 'now' and 'yoga' mean).

 

Still another connotation is the sequence of the great works of

Patanjali - after his other great achievements he says 'Now - Yoga'.

This indicates that a certain maturity is required on the part of the

reader before she/he can embrace the depth of what is said in this

greatest work, and, that after dealing with the practical needs of

life one is 'now' ready for the ultimate exploration.

 

And, spirit (from the dictionary) means 'essence' - its root

meaning is 'to breathe'.

 

The Fourfold Spiral Flow of the breath is:

 

**the simplest and most profound secret of all esoteric traditions**

 

- this is the *template* for all of life.

 

It is in the 'flow' that the breath is 'two in one' (a marriage)

which is the essence of Yoga, and, the 'flow' of what is called 'now'

is always changing and yet it is always now - it is 'two in one'. The

*flow* is the reconciliation of opposites where they are no longer

seen as opposites but rather they are seen as the complimentary

*dual* 'qualities' of the breath/life/yoga.

 

(the Trinity is the duality described above plus the Singularity

of the Seeing Itself)

 

~~~

 

in the second sutra Patanjali defines yoga, it can be translated as:

 

 

Yoga is the cessation of identification with the whirl of local mind.

 

 

 

In the first sutra Patanjali gives the intellectual information

through the words he uses and their placement etc., as described

above.

 

Then, in this second sutra he is saying that this cannot be

understood intellectually. If one then goes back to the first sutra

this makes sense and then coming back to the second sutra that

intellectual understanding is again denyed - the process of going back

and forth like this forms an infinite spiral loop (whirl) which is a

reflection of the 'flow' of life and breath and it facilitates an

experiential understanding of yoga/life *AND* it reveals that the

ultimate understanding is the *Seeing Itself* - that which is natural,

that which sees the paradoxical nature of the things without getting

entangled in the web of 'doing'.

 

 

~~~

 

John,

 

Please note the parallels here to the first lines of the Tao Te

Ching (I read your comments about reading this work - my experience

with it is similar - I feel that the Truth it re-presents facilitates

an experiential understanding beyond the words)

 

"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao"

 

 

Are the facts that the 'Tao Te Ching' and Patanjali's 'Yoga

Sutras' were both written around 500 BCE, and, that we are not sure of

the author of either coincidents?

 

 

 

Love and Gratitude,

James

 

 

 

 

 

, Harsha <harshaimtm> wrote:

> Thanks for your comments John. Yes, Patanjali's sutras

> would be great to discuss and talk about. BigBob is

> the expert here.

>

> My favorite sutra is something like, "Now the seer

> rests in his own nature".

>

> My comment is:

>

> The Seer, pure consciousness, fully awake, and resting

> as consciousness in It Self -- That is Advaita!

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

>

>

> --- "John Logan <johnrloganis>"

> <johnrloganis> wrote:

> > Hi Joyce,

> > Perhaps, but the real action is going to come from

> > within you.

> > The Ultimate Guru or teacher is within you, and has

> > the guidance you

> > need.

> >

> > I can't speak for Harsha, but what I get out of the

> > Sutras is

> > filtered through my consciousness and my needs --

> > and that view may

> > not be appropriate for you.

> >

> > I would be willing to dialogue with you a bit, if

> > you share what it

> > means to you and we can share about that. I am not

> > willing to take on

> > the whole thing one sutra at a time. Only the ones

> > which strike a

> > bell with you, or for which you have a question, if

> > I have a comment.

> >

> > Bob Graham (BigBob) is also a long studied disciple

> > of the Yoga

> > Sutras and his input would also be quite beneficial.

> > Actually the

> > thrust here is more or less Advaita, with emphasis

> > on Ramana Maharshi

> > and the like.

> >

> > So I think I would want Harsha to respond as to

> > whether it is

> > appropriate to make a big study of the Yoga Sutras,

> > since they teach

> > the path of Ashtangha Yoga, another Noble Eightfold

> > Path, where as

> > the path indicated by the Advaita Vedantists is a

> > path of point to

> > direct realization through the self, beyond the

> > self, being

> > Sat-Chit-Ananda, realizing the oneness with Brahman,

> > the Absolute.

> >

> > On the other hand, the Yoga Sutras begin by pointing

> > out that we are

> > surrounded by clouds of ignorance separating us from

> > the truth and

> > from God and from a direct realization of who we

> > really are. So it is

> > dedicated to dispersing those clouds and offers many

> > pathways as

> > appropriate for doing just that.

> >

> > As I see it each "sutra" is a description of a

> > problem and

> > multidimensonally offers the solution at the same

> > time. The layers in

> > each sutra must be penetrated deeply in awareness,

> > experience, and

> > practice. They are to be lived with until the

> > meaning for the

> > receiver "ripens".

> >

> > Comments anyone, especially Harsha and Bob,

> > John L.

>

>

> =====

> /join

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

> http://mailplus.

[Guest guest]

Hi James,

 

Thank you.

I would like to focus on the "vritti", fluctuations, from the root

vrt, to whirl.

 

This is also a description of the need to "whirl deeper and deeper"

into the meaning of the individual sutras as well a looking at them

as a whole. This is spoken of as "penetrating deeply".

 

Each sutra is a study in itself, but must also be taken in the

context of the part in which it finds itself, and also in the whole

of the Yoga Sutras as a body of work.

 

My personal recommendation to the student is to read the entire book

at one sitting, to get a sense of the whole, before diving into a lot

of analytical detail in the individual sutras. However, once one

begins to penetrate an individual sutra, it is found that what looks

like a sentence, a description, or information about action -- is

actually a directive to act, to experiment and to experience.

 

You have connected the word "Yoga" with the word "embrace". That is

felicitious. The action as I see it is something like this:

 

What is Now?

What am I embracing (Yoga-ing) Now? this very minute? this very

moment?

What is Now beyond time?

What am I embracing eternally?

As I "think" about these questions, certain answers come to mind.

Let them come.

Are they complete?

What does Now feel like?

What does "embracing" feel like?

The claim has been made that "Now" and "Yoga" are actually one.

How does this think?

How does this feel?

 

These statements and questions are a stimulis to actually thinking

about it and feeling it, doing them?

 

Returning to the whole of the sutra: atha-yoga-anusasanam

Now-Yoga-Exposition (or instruction)

 

Who is being instructed?

Who is the instructor?

 

The Sutras themselves suggest answers: I: 23-26 is a place to start.

There are other places where the answer to these questions is

suggested in Part II, and in Part IV. First one searches for the

answers in oneself, and then studying the Sutras as a whole, methods

for "penetrating deeper" are suggested in various places.

 

So answers are offered, but more importantly how to find the answers

for oneself are also offered. The Sutras point to establishing the

individual as the possessor of the final authority -- in the end in a

blaze of glory -- the individual disappears into the Allness.

 

John L.

 

, "james <nisarga@c...>"

<nisarga@c...> wrote:

>

> Hello Harsha, John and Friends,

>

> Here is a comment that I wrote on Patanjali's first two sutras:

>

> The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali are said to be his masterpiece.

> Patanjali is credited with first creating the written language

> of Sanskrit, then his great work on Ayurveda and finally Yoga (no

one

> knows for sure if Patanjali existed or if that name represents a

> compilation of sages wisdom).

[Guest guest]

Hello John,

 

 

Yes. Each Sutra and The Whole point to the dual nature of Oneness.

 

 

The 'vrt' or whirl of exploring deeper and deeper is lived - the

qualities/dual aspects of this whirl are mental and other (known and

unknown) - The Whole cannot be defined as the sum of these

qualities/aspects - it is beyond words - it can only be described with

Silence which is what Patanjali facilitates with the 'Yoga Sutras'.

 

 

At first this vrt is intellectual - one understands mentally...

And yet the Sutras themselves clearly state not to mentally

identify with the whirl of exploring deeper and deeper - in other

words - this is the fact of how things manifest/are structured, and

yet the deeper understanding is 'Freedom within the Structure' where

'Freedom' is the other aspect of the dual nature of Oneness.

This comment 'Freedom within the Structure' is first understood

mentally - the living understanding is a 'Way of Being' that is in

harmony with the 'whirl' or flow of life - Silence and Sound.

 

 

 

The clearest, simplest guide for the marriage of these different

aspects of understanding that represent the dual nature of life, is

the 'Fourfold Spiral Flow of the Breath'.

 

 

 

The Spiral/whirl of inspiration-pause-expiration-pause is the

template for all of life.

 

 

 

This template can be viewed as the central spiral of spirals

within spirals, within spirals...infinitely nested in opposing

directions inward and outward (like exploring the whirl deeper and

deeper inward and outward) - a simple example is dropping a pebble

into water and watching the ripples moving outward from it - at first

the water appears to be moving only outward - yet deeper investigation

reveals multidimensional movement, particularly that the water has to

move both outward and inward from/toward centre for the ripples to

appear, and that the more the movement is in harmony/resonance, the

greater the power of the ripples.

 

 

The inward and outward flow is inhalation and exhalation -

inhalation - stimulation, exhalation - release. This is the structure

of Patanjali's first two sutras.

 

 

 

In this way the flow of the breath is the central spiral and as

one explores the next outer spirals (the next two sutras, and, their

relationship to the first two to represent the fourfold spiral of the

breath) one sees that the flow of the breath is punctuated by the

natural pauses (the pause after inhalation before exhalation, and the

deeper pause after exhalation before inhalation). Just as the

exhalation is to inhalation, the pauses/stillness is to the movement -

the relationship is the same the difference is in degree not in kind.

 

 

 

The realtionship/structure is universal - the difference is in

degree not in kind.

 

 

Patanjali shows that 'four' is the representation of The Whole by

having four chapters and again the use of the 'vrt' which means

'whirl' - this is a wave (which is two - inhalation and exhalation)

and its flow (movement and stillness, a 'standing wave' - two waves

moving in opposing directions to form a 'single' wave as the resonate

- the geometry of this resonance is 'phi' - the *Golden Mean*) - a

flowing wave makes a spiral (you see surfers riding on this flow - and

it is seen in the double spiral of our Milky Way Galaxy and the double

helix of our DNA - these are simply larger and smaller versions of the

central spiral - the breath - the difference is in degree).

 

 

So, the 'dance' of life has a clearly defined structure that

Patanjali parallels in his Yoga Sutras and through it he facilitates

the understanding that 'The Dancer is the Dance' or the 'structure and

freedom' of the Yoga Sutras is based on 'structure and freedom' - it

is the thing itself and by 'Being Itself' it facilitates sympathetic

vibration.

 

 

 

One can be touched by this through studying the 'Yoga Sutras'

and/or when there is harmony/resonance with the flow of the breath

there is the elegance of the dance, and the dancer rests in her/his

own knowing as the Dance - Silence and Sound.

 

 

Love and Gratitude,

James

 

 

 

 

 

, "John Logan

<johnrloganis>" <johnrloganis> wrote:

> Hi James,

>

> Thank you.

> I would like to focus on the "vritti", fluctuations, from the root

> vrt, to whirl.

>

> This is also a description of the need to "whirl deeper and deeper"

> into the meaning of the individual sutras as well a looking at them

> as a whole. This is spoken of as "penetrating deeply".

>

> Each sutra is a study in itself, but must also be taken in the

> context of the part in which it finds itself, and also in the whole

> of the Yoga Sutras as a body of work.

>

> My personal recommendation to the student is to read the entire book

> at one sitting, to get a sense of the whole, before diving into a

lot

> of analytical detail in the individual sutras. However, once one

> begins to penetrate an individual sutra, it is found that what looks

> like a sentence, a description, or information about action -- is

> actually a directive to act, to experiment and to experience.

>

> You have connected the word "Yoga" with the word "embrace". That is

> felicitious. The action as I see it is something like this:

>

> What is Now?

> What am I embracing (Yoga-ing) Now? this very minute? this very

> moment?

> What is Now beyond time?

> What am I embracing eternally?

> As I "think" about these questions, certain answers come to mind.

> Let them come.

> Are they complete?

> What does Now feel like?

> What does "embracing" feel like?

> The claim has been made that "Now" and "Yoga" are actually one.

> How does this think?

> How does this feel?

>

> These statements and questions are a stimulis to actually thinking

> about it and feeling it, doing them?

>

> Returning to the whole of the sutra: atha-yoga-anusasanam

> Now-Yoga-Exposition (or instruction)

>

> Who is being instructed?

> Who is the instructor?

>

> The Sutras themselves suggest answers: I: 23-26 is a place to start.

> There are other places where the answer to these questions is

> suggested in Part II, and in Part IV. First one searches for the

> answers in oneself, and then studying the Sutras as a whole, methods

> for "penetrating deeper" are suggested in various places.

>

> So answers are offered, but more importantly how to find the answers

> for oneself are also offered. The Sutras point to establishing the

> individual as the possessor of the final authority -- in the end in

a

> blaze of glory -- the individual disappears into the Allness.

>

> John L.

>

> , "james <nisarga@c...>"

> <nisarga@c...> wrote:

> >

> > Hello Harsha, John and Friends,

> >

> > Here is a comment that I wrote on Patanjali's first two

sutras:

> >

> > The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali are said to be his masterpiece.

> > Patanjali is credited with first creating the written

language

> > of Sanskrit, then his great work on Ayurveda and finally Yoga (no

> one

> > knows for sure if Patanjali existed or if that name represents a

> > compilation of sages wisdom).

[Guest guest]

Hello James,

What a wonderful indepth look confirming and extending my remarks.

 

William Samuel was the first to tell me that a book hasn't been read

until it has been read seven times!

 

I have found that in dealing with spiritual writings or teaching that

the superficial understanding is barely the beginning of

understanding or "absorption". One must live with it for a while in,

as you have so nicely pointed out, in in-and-out breathing, in sound

and silence, in movement and stillness -- then it comes alive!

 

Nameste,

John L.

 

, "james <nisarga@c...>"

<nisarga@c...> wrote:

>

>

> Hello John,

>

>

> Yes. Each Sutra and The Whole point to the dual nature of

Oneness.

>

>

> The 'vrt' or whirl of exploring deeper and deeper is lived -

the

> qualities/dual aspects of this whirl are mental and other (known

and

> unknown) - The Whole cannot be defined as the sum of these

> qualities/aspects - it is beyond words - it can only be described

with

> Silence which is what Patanjali facilitates with the 'Yoga Sutras'.