Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Q: If reality is bliss, then pleasure in some way must be related to it. M: Let us not proceed by verbal logic. The bliss of reality does not exclude suffering. Besides, you know only pleasure, not the bliss of pure being. So let us examine pleasure an its own level. If you look at your self in your moments of pleasure or pain, you will invariably find that it is not the thing in itself that is pleasant or painful, but the situation of which it is a part. Pleasure lies in the relationship between the enjoyer and the enjoyed. And the essence of it is acceptance. Whatever may be the situation, if it is acceptable, it is pleasant. If it is not acceptable, it is painful. What makes it acceptable is not important; the cause may be physical, or psychological. or untraceable; acceptance is the decisive factor. Obviously suffering is due to non-acceptance. Q: Pain is not acceptable. M: Why not? Did you ever try? Do try and you will find in pain a joy which pleasure cannot yield, for the simple reason that acceptance of pain take you much deeper than pleasure does. The personal self by its very nature is constantly pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain. The ending of this pattern is the ending of the self. The ending of the self with its desires and fears enables you to return to your real nature, the source of all happiness and peace. The perennial desire for pleasure is the reflection of the timeless harmony within. It is an observable fact that one becomes self-conscious only when caught in the conflict between pleasure and pain, which demand choice and decision. It is this clash between desire and fear that causes anger, which is the great destroyer of sanity in life. When pain is accepted for what it is a lesson and a warning, and deeply looked into and heeded, the separation between pain and pleasure breaks down, both become experience – painful when resisted, joyful when accepted. Q: Do you advise shunning pleasure and pursuing pain? M: No, nor pursuing pleasure and shunning pain. Accept both as they come, enjoy both while they last, let the go, as they must. Q: How can I possible enjoy pain? Physical pain calls for action. M: Of course. And so does mental. The bliss is in the awareness of it, in not shrinking, or in any way turning away from it. All happiness comes from awareness. The more we are conscious, the deeper the joy. Acceptance of pain, non-resistance, courage and endurance--these open deep and perennial sources of real happiness, true bliss. Q: Why should pain be more effective than pleasure? M: Pleasure is readily accepted, while all the powers of the self reject pain. As the acceptance of pain is the denial of the self, and the self stands in the way of true happiness, the whole-hearted acceptance of pain release the springs of happiness. Q: Does the acceptance of suffering act the same way? M: The fact of pain is easily brought within the focus of awareness. With suffering it is not that simple. To focus on suffering is not enough, for mental life, as we know it, is one continuous stream of suffering. To reach the deeper layers of suffering you must go to its roots and uncover their vast underground network, where fear and desire are closely interwoven and the currents of life's energy oppose, obstruct and destroy each other. Q: How can I set right a tangle which is entirely below the level of consciousness? M: By being with yourself, the "I Am"; by watching yourself in your daily life with alert interest, with the intention to understand rather than to judge, in full acceptance of whatever may emerge. Because it is there, you encourage the deep to come to the surface and enrich your life and consciousness with its captive energies. That is the great work of awareness; it removes obstacles and releases energies by understanding the nature of life and mind. Intelligence is the door to freedom and alert attention is the mother of intelligence. Q: Why does pleasure end in pain? M: Everything has a beginning and an end and so does pleasure. Don't anticipate and don't regret, and there will be no pain. It is memory and imagination that cause suffering. Of course pain after pleasure may be due to the misuse of the body or the mind. The body knows its measure, but the mind does not. Its appetites are numberless and limitless. Watch you mind with great diligence, for there lies your bondage and also the key to freedom. When the mind takes over, remembers and anticipates, it exaggerates, it distorts, it over-looks. The past is projected into future and the future betrays the expectations. The organ of sensation and action are stimulated beyond capacity and they inevitably break down. The objects of pleasure cannot yield what is expected of them and get worn out or destroyed, by misuse. It results in excess of pain where pleasure was looked for. LoveAlways, Mazie & b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Hi Mazie, Can you please give the exact source when you quote Ramana Maharshi. Not long ago, there was a gentleman who started calling himself Ramana and he was being quoted as well. Ramana is also a fairly common indian name. There is ample room for confusion without sources. If you are quoting the Sage of Arunchala on this list, please give the exact source. It is very helpful and much appreciated. What is the source of what you quoted? Is it from, "Talks with Ramana Maharshi.?" Please let us know. Generally speaking, on this list, if you are quoting the Sage of Arunchala, please give the exact source. Some of the classic sayings of Sri RAmana are well known. For others, it is very helpful to have a source and much appreciated. Thanks Harsha , "mazie_l <sraddha54@h...>" <sraddha54@h...> wrote: > > Q: If reality is bliss, then pleasure in some way must be related to > it. > > M: Let us not proceed by verbal logic. The bliss of reality does not > exclude suffering. Besides, you know only pleasure, not the bliss of > pure being. So let us examine pleasure an its own level. > > If you look at your self in your moments of pleasure or pain, you > will invariably find that it is not the thing in itself that is > pleasant or painful, but the situation of which it is a part. > Pleasure lies in the relationship between the enjoyer and the > enjoyed. And the essence of it is acceptance. Whatever may be the > situation, if it is acceptable, it is pleasant. If it is not > acceptable, it is painful. What makes it acceptable is not > important; the cause may be physical, or psychological. or > untraceable; acceptance is the decisive factor. > Obviously suffering is due to non-acceptance. > > Q: Pain is not acceptable. > > M: Why not? Did you ever try? Do try and you will find in pain a > joy which pleasure cannot yield, for the simple reason that > acceptance of pain take you much deeper than pleasure does. The > personal self by its very nature is constantly pursuing pleasure and > avoiding pain. The ending of this pattern is the ending of the > self. The ending of the self with its desires and fears enables you > to return to your real nature, the source of all happiness and > peace. The perennial desire for pleasure is the reflection of the > timeless harmony within. It is an observable fact that one becomes > self-conscious only when caught in the conflict between pleasure and > pain, which demand choice and decision. It is this clash between > desire and fear that causes anger, which is the great destroyer of > sanity in life. When pain is accepted for what it is a lesson and a > warning, and deeply looked into and heeded, the separation between > pain and pleasure breaks down, both become experience – > painful when resisted, joyful when accepted. > > > Q: Do you advise shunning pleasure and pursuing pain? > > M: No, nor pursuing pleasure and shunning pain. Accept both as they > come, enjoy both while they last, let the go, as they must. > > Q: How can I possible enjoy pain? Physical pain calls for action. > > M: Of course. And so does mental. The bliss is in the awareness of > it, in not shrinking, or in any way turning away from it. All > happiness comes from awareness. The more we are conscious, the > deeper the joy. Acceptance of pain, non-resistance, courage and > endurance--these open deep and perennial sources of real happiness, > true bliss. > > Q: Why should pain be more effective than pleasure? > > M: Pleasure is readily accepted, while all the powers of the self > reject pain. As the acceptance of pain is the denial of the self, > and the self stands in the way of true happiness, the whole- hearted > acceptance of pain release the springs of happiness. > > Q: Does the acceptance of suffering act the same way? > > M: The fact of pain is easily brought within the focus of awareness. > With suffering it is not that simple. To focus on suffering is not > enough, for mental life, as we know it, is one continuous stream of > suffering. To reach the deeper layers of suffering you must go to > its roots and uncover their vast underground network, where fear and > desire are closely interwoven and the currents of life's energy > oppose, obstruct and destroy each other. > > Q: How can I set right a tangle which is entirely below the level of > consciousness? > > M: By being with yourself, the "I Am"; by watching yourself in your > daily life with alert interest, with the intention to understand > rather than to judge, in full acceptance of whatever may emerge. > Because it is there, you encourage the deep to come to the surface > and enrich your life and consciousness with its captive energies. > That is the great work of awareness; it removes obstacles and > releases energies by understanding the nature of life and mind. > Intelligence is the door to freedom and alert attention is the mother > of intelligence. > > Q: Why does pleasure end in pain? > > M: Everything has a beginning and an end and so does pleasure. > Don't anticipate and don't regret, and there will be no pain. It is > memory and imagination that cause suffering. > > Of course pain after pleasure may be due to the misuse of the > body or the mind. The body knows its measure, but the mind does > not. Its appetites are numberless and limitless. Watch you mind > with great diligence, for there lies your bondage and also the key > to freedom. > > When the mind takes over, remembers and anticipates, it exaggerates, > it distorts, it over-looks. The past is projected into future and > the future betrays the expectations. The organ of sensation and > action are stimulated beyond capacity and they inevitably break > down. The objects of pleasure cannot yield what is expected of them > and get worn out or destroyed, by misuse. It results in excess of > pain where pleasure was looked for. > > > LoveAlways, > > Mazie & b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 , "harshaimtm <harshaimtm>" <harshaimtm> wrote: Dearest Harshaji, This was posted and extracted from "Net of Jewels" website some time ago. LoveAlways, Mazie > Hi Mazie, > > Can you please give the exact source when you quote Ramana Maharshi. > > Not long ago, there was a gentleman who started calling himself > Ramana and he was being quoted as well. Ramana is also a fairly > common indian name. There is ample room for confusion without sources. > > If you are quoting the Sage of Arunchala on this list, please give > the exact source. It is very helpful and much appreciated. > > What is the source of what you quoted? Is it from, "Talks with Ramana > Maharshi.?" Please let us know. > > Generally speaking, on this list, if you are quoting the Sage of > Arunchala, please give the exact source. Some of the classic sayings > of Sri RAmana are well known. For others, it is very helpful to have > a source and much appreciated. > > Thanks > Harsha > > > , "mazie_l <sraddha54@h...>" > <sraddha54@h...> wrote: > > > > Q: If reality is bliss, then pleasure in some way must be related > to > > it. > > > > M: Let us not proceed by verbal logic. The bliss of reality does > not > > exclude suffering. Besides, you know only pleasure, not the bliss > of > > pure being. So let us examine pleasure an its own level. > > > > If you look at your self in your moments of pleasure or pain, you > > will invariably find that it is not the thing in itself that is > > pleasant or painful, but the situation of which it is a part. > > Pleasure lies in the relationship between the enjoyer and the > > enjoyed. And the essence of it is acceptance. Whatever may be the > > situation, if it is acceptable, it is pleasant. If it is not > > acceptable, it is painful. What makes it acceptable is not > > important; the cause may be physical, or psychological. or > > untraceable; acceptance is the decisive factor. > > Obviously suffering is due to non-acceptance. > > > > Q: Pain is not acceptable. > > > > M: Why not? Did you ever try? Do try and you will find in pain a > > joy which pleasure cannot yield, for the simple reason that > > acceptance of pain take you much deeper than pleasure does. The > > personal self by its very nature is constantly pursuing pleasure > and > > avoiding pain. The ending of this pattern is the ending of the > > self. The ending of the self with its desires and fears enables > you > > to return to your real nature, the source of all happiness and > > peace. The perennial desire for pleasure is the reflection of the > > timeless harmony within. It is an observable fact that one becomes > > self-conscious only when caught in the conflict between pleasure > and > > pain, which demand choice and decision. It is this clash between > > desire and fear that causes anger, which is the great destroyer of > > sanity in life. When pain is accepted for what it is a lesson and > a > > warning, and deeply looked into and heeded, the separation between > > pain and pleasure breaks down, both become experience – > > painful when resisted, joyful when accepted. > > > > > > Q: Do you advise shunning pleasure and pursuing pain? > > > > M: No, nor pursuing pleasure and shunning pain. Accept both as > they > > come, enjoy both while they last, let the go, as they must. > > > > Q: How can I possible enjoy pain? Physical pain calls for action. > > > > M: Of course. And so does mental. The bliss is in the awareness of > > it, in not shrinking, or in any way turning away from it. All > > happiness comes from awareness. The more we are conscious, the > > deeper the joy. Acceptance of pain, non-resistance, courage and > > endurance--these open deep and perennial sources of real > happiness, > > true bliss. > > > > Q: Why should pain be more effective than pleasure? > > > > M: Pleasure is readily accepted, while all the powers of the self > > reject pain. As the acceptance of pain is the denial of the self, > > and the self stands in the way of true happiness, the whole- > hearted > > acceptance of pain release the springs of happiness. > > > > Q: Does the acceptance of suffering act the same way? > > > > M: The fact of pain is easily brought within the focus of > awareness. > > With suffering it is not that simple. To focus on suffering is not > > enough, for mental life, as we know it, is one continuous stream > of > > suffering. To reach the deeper layers of suffering you must go to > > its roots and uncover their vast underground network, where fear > and > > desire are closely interwoven and the currents of life's energy > > oppose, obstruct and destroy each other. > > > > Q: How can I set right a tangle which is entirely below the level > of > > consciousness? > > > > M: By being with yourself, the "I Am"; by watching yourself in > your > > daily life with alert interest, with the intention to understand > > rather than to judge, in full acceptance of whatever may emerge. > > Because it is there, you encourage the deep to come to the surface > > and enrich your life and consciousness with its captive energies. > > That is the great work of awareness; it removes obstacles and > > releases energies by understanding the nature of life and mind. > > Intelligence is the door to freedom and alert attention is the > mother > > of intelligence. > > > > Q: Why does pleasure end in pain? > > > > M: Everything has a beginning and an end and so does pleasure. > > Don't anticipate and don't regret, and there will be no pain. It > is > > memory and imagination that cause suffering. > > > > Of course pain after pleasure may be due to the misuse of the > > body or the mind. The body knows its measure, but the mind does > > not. Its appetites are numberless and limitless. Watch you mind > > with great diligence, for there lies your bondage and also the key > > to freedom. > > > > When the mind takes over, remembers and anticipates, it > exaggerates, > > it distorts, it over-looks. The past is projected into future and > > the future betrays the expectations. The organ of sensation and > > action are stimulated beyond capacity and they inevitably break > > down. The objects of pleasure cannot yield what is expected of > them > > and get worn out or destroyed, by misuse. It results in excess of > > pain where pleasure was looked for. > > > > > > LoveAlways, > > > > Mazie & b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Thank you Mazieji. The net of jewels is not really the original source for Sri Ramana's dialogues, although they might have mentioned the source of the quote. What was their source or the source mentioned by the person who posted the quote? I am interested in the original source of what you quoted, so that it can be looked up. There are two main books containing dialogues where the authors took notes (in Sri RAmana's presence) while Sri Ramana was speaking or answering questions. These are "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" and "Day by Day with Bhagavan". Love to all Harsha , "mazie_l <sraddha54@h...>" <sraddha54@h...> wrote: > , "harshaimtm <harshaimtm>" > <harshaimtm> wrote: > > Dearest Harshaji, > > This was posted and extracted from "Net of Jewels" website some time > ago. > > LoveAlways, > > Mazie > > > > Hi Mazie, > > > > Can you please give the exact source when you quote Ramana > Maharshi. > > > > Not long ago, there was a gentleman who started calling himself > > Ramana and he was being quoted as well. Ramana is also a fairly > > common indian name. There is ample room for confusion without > sources. > > > > If you are quoting the Sage of Arunchala on this list, please give > > the exact source. It is very helpful and much appreciated. > > > > What is the source of what you quoted? Is it from, "Talks with > Ramana > > Maharshi.?" Please let us know. > > > > Generally speaking, on this list, if you are quoting the Sage of > > Arunchala, please give the exact source. Some of the classic > sayings > > of Sri RAmana are well known. For others, it is very helpful to > have > > a source and much appreciated. > > > > Thanks > > Harsha > > > > > > , "mazie_l <sraddha54@h...>" > > <sraddha54@h...> wrote: > > > > > > Q: If reality is bliss, then pleasure in some way must be related > > to > > > it. > > > > > > M: Let us not proceed by verbal logic. The bliss of reality does > > not > > > exclude suffering. Besides, you know only pleasure, not the > bliss > > of > > > pure being. So let us examine pleasure an its own level. > > > > > > If you look at your self in your moments of pleasure or pain, > you > > > will invariably find that it is not the thing in itself that is > > > pleasant or painful, but the situation of which it is a part. > > > Pleasure lies in the relationship between the enjoyer and the > > > enjoyed. And the essence of it is acceptance. Whatever may be > the > > > situation, if it is acceptable, it is pleasant. If it is not > > > acceptable, it is painful. What makes it acceptable is not > > > important; the cause may be physical, or psychological. or > > > untraceable; acceptance is the decisive factor. > > > Obviously suffering is due to non-acceptance. > > > > > > Q: Pain is not acceptable. > > > > > > M: Why not? Did you ever try? Do try and you will find in pain a > > > joy which pleasure cannot yield, for the simple reason that > > > acceptance of pain take you much deeper than pleasure does. The > > > personal self by its very nature is constantly pursuing pleasure > > and > > > avoiding pain. The ending of this pattern is the ending of the > > > self. The ending of the self with its desires and fears enables > > you > > > to return to your real nature, the source of all happiness and > > > peace. The perennial desire for pleasure is the reflection of > the > > > timeless harmony within. It is an observable fact that one > becomes > > > self-conscious only when caught in the conflict between pleasure > > and > > > pain, which demand choice and decision. It is this clash between > > > desire and fear that causes anger, which is the great destroyer > of > > > sanity in life. When pain is accepted for what it is a lesson > and > > a > > > warning, and deeply looked into and heeded, the separation > between > > > pain and pleasure breaks down, both become experience – > > > painful when resisted, joyful when accepted. > > > > > > > > > Q: Do you advise shunning pleasure and pursuing pain? > > > > > > M: No, nor pursuing pleasure and shunning pain. Accept both as > > they > > > come, enjoy both while they last, let the go, as they must. > > > > > > Q: How can I possible enjoy pain? Physical pain calls for action. > > > > > > M: Of course. And so does mental. The bliss is in the awareness > of > > > it, in not shrinking, or in any way turning away from it. All > > > happiness comes from awareness. The more we are conscious, the > > > deeper the joy. Acceptance of pain, non-resistance, courage and > > > endurance--these open deep and perennial sources of real > > happiness, > > > true bliss. > > > > > > Q: Why should pain be more effective than pleasure? > > > > > > M: Pleasure is readily accepted, while all the powers of the > self > > > reject pain. As the acceptance of pain is the denial of the > self, > > > and the self stands in the way of true happiness, the whole- > > hearted > > > acceptance of pain release the springs of happiness. > > > > > > Q: Does the acceptance of suffering act the same way? > > > > > > M: The fact of pain is easily brought within the focus of > > awareness. > > > With suffering it is not that simple. To focus on suffering is > not > > > enough, for mental life, as we know it, is one continuous stream > > of > > > suffering. To reach the deeper layers of suffering you must go > to > > > its roots and uncover their vast underground network, where fear > > and > > > desire are closely interwoven and the currents of life's energy > > > oppose, obstruct and destroy each other. > > > > > > Q: How can I set right a tangle which is entirely below the > level > > of > > > consciousness? > > > > > > M: By being with yourself, the "I Am"; by watching yourself in > > your > > > daily life with alert interest, with the intention to understand > > > rather than to judge, in full acceptance of whatever may emerge. > > > Because it is there, you encourage the deep to come to the > surface > > > and enrich your life and consciousness with its captive > energies. > > > That is the great work of awareness; it removes obstacles and > > > releases energies by understanding the nature of life and mind. > > > Intelligence is the door to freedom and alert attention is the > > mother > > > of intelligence. > > > > > > Q: Why does pleasure end in pain? > > > > > > M: Everything has a beginning and an end and so does pleasure. > > > Don't anticipate and don't regret, and there will be no pain. It > > is > > > memory and imagination that cause suffering. > > > > > > Of course pain after pleasure may be due to the misuse of the > > > body or the mind. The body knows its measure, but the mind does > > > not. Its appetites are numberless and limitless. Watch you mind > > > with great diligence, for there lies your bondage and also the > key > > > to freedom. > > > > > > When the mind takes over, remembers and anticipates, it > > exaggerates, > > > it distorts, it over-looks. The past is projected into future > and > > > the future betrays the expectations. The organ of sensation and > > > action are stimulated beyond capacity and they inevitably break > > > down. The objects of pleasure cannot yield what is expected of > > them > > > and get worn out or destroyed, by misuse. It results in excess > of > > > pain where pleasure was looked for. > > > > > > > > > LoveAlways, > > > > > > Mazie & b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Thank you Sri Vickiji. Much appreciated. Do let us know the source of the quote. I have not read, "I am That" other than what I have seen quoted here and there on the lists. Love to all Harsha , "viorica weissman <viorica@z...>" <viorica@z...> wrote: > dear Harsha & Mazie > > i think the post is from Nisargadatta 's I Am That ; > almost sure ; > I'll check tomorrow with the book ; > maybe someone else here could confirm this either; > > no wonder you didn't recognize Ramana ; > > > vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Thanks Vicki. It should be pointed out there are only a few primary sources of Sri Ramana's teachings and the devotees are encouraged to read these. These are the "Talks....." covering the mid to late 1930s and "Day by Day..." of the 1940s. "Be As You Are" edited by David Godman relies mostly on the above two primary sources. In addition, Suri Nagamma wrote letters to her brother about Ashram events and these are covered in "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam." Also the accounts of the devotees who had everyday interaction with Sri Ramana are most useful and give a good flavor of the Ashram. Please keep in mind that, in addition to yogic, tantric, meditative, and Shakti related practices, this list and site are devoted and dedicated to the teachings of Sri Ramana. So care in quoting the Sage of Arunachala or attributing a quote to Him is important. Many years ago, I was taking a walk with another Indian professor when he "quoted" Sri Ramana. I told him frankly that Sri Ramana could never ever have said anything like that. My friend was surprised and embarrassed at my being so blunt and asked me whether I had read all of the literature and conversations that Sri RAmana had. I told him that I had not and in fact had read mostly only the "Talks" more than two and half decades ago. He asked me that given my limited readings, how I was so sure that my friend's quote was inaccurate. It just is I said. My friend was indignant but later on after doing some research, he realized the truth of the matter. It is like when the Mother raises you, educates you, blesses you, and gives you real knowledge. Then you go off to college to experience the "real" world. Some one years later quotes your Mother and says She said such and such and in such a way. The words quoted may seem pleasant and very nice, but the child will easily know if the words came from his Mother. One common characteristic of Sri Ramana in his conversations about Self-Realization is that the Sage goes straight to the heart of the matter. There is no complex psycho babble and no mumbo jumbo. In his social interactions, however, Sri Ramana was very human and often shed tears at the sorrows of the devotees. Love to all Harsha ===== /join Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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