Taoist Christians?

[Guest guest]

Namaste All,

 

I picked this up and post here without prejudice........ONS...Tony.

>Jesus Sutra discovered in China

In this age of the information highway, you might think that nothing

could surprise us, that we know everything. But no. It's not the

case. An enigma surfaces sometimes just where you don't expect; it

can be as extraordinary as an old fairy tale, or call in question our

past history.

 

So perhaps you will be surprised to learn that the latest light on

the origins of Christianity comes to us from China. The following

story, told by one of its exponents, the anthropologist J. Albertsma,

has all the wonders of a treasure hunt. One day, Martin Palmer, an

eminent authority on old Chinese religious texts and the history of

the oriental Christian church, found a book of a Chinese scholar

which appeared in the 1930s and which mentioned a very old Christian

site in China with a half-erased map on which was shown a Chinese

pagoda titled "Ta Ching", which literally translated means "of the

Roman Empire".

 

After some research, the map proved to be false, but by chance

another monastery called "Lo Guan" was shown on it, situated in the

central province of Shang Xi - which Professor Palmer knew well.

 

In 1998, Palmer's team decided to start their research there, and

this time fortune smiled on them. Climbing up a small hill

overlooking the temple, they saw a Chinese pagoda in the area built

on a hill. Dating from the Tang dynasty, the pagoda was about 1,300

years old, and had been sealed in the year 1,556 after an earthquake.

It seemed absolutely Chinese but a very old Buddhist nun of 115 years

of age (another marvel!) told them that it had a Christian origin,

and an old seller of amulets told them a local legend - that some

Westerners who believed in God and who had constructed the monastery,

the church and the pagoda, had never died. By observing the adjacent

buildings constructed on the terrace, Palmer realised that they had

not been built north-south, like all Chinese

temples, but east-west like western Christian sites.

 

Palmer alerted the Chinese authorities who were restoring and

consolidating the pagoda, and six months later during the summer of

1999, he was contacted by these same authorities who, intrigued,

wanted his opinion. Palmer was led to the interior of the reopened

pagoda. "When our eyes started to become accustomed to the darkness,"

he said, "the meaning of what we had before our eyes started to dawn

on us. He saw a wooden and plaster statue of three metres high

representing the sacred mountains of Taoism, with a grotto in the

centre in the Tang style constructed in 790, at the same time as the

pagoda. But in this grotto there was a statue of an reclining figure,

the appearance of whose legs and torso (the remainder had

disappeared) were not Chinese. Palmer recognised the

scene of the Nativity, with the Virgin Mary carrying the child. He

also found a Syrian text carved on a stone.

 

The pagoda belonged to a collection of buildings which had contained

a library and a Christian church, situated in the enclosure of an

imperial Tang Taoist temple. It was the oldest statue of the Virgin

in China, which shows that Christianity has been present in China for

1,400 years. A stele engraved in 781 tells the story. It arrived in

China in 635 in the form of an official mission of the Bishop Alopen.

An oriental Christianity, which was not Roman, nor Byzantine, but

Persian, with its

seat in Baghdad, and which had been spread via India, Central Asia

and Tibet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Following his discovery, Palmer even advanced the theory that the

celebrated Chinese Buddhist goddess of mercy and compa-

ssion, Quan Yin, represented sometimes with a child, had been

influenced by the ancient image of this Virgin Mary.

 

 

 

 

Quan Yin

 

 

 

 

The second discovery is that of the Sutras of Jesus, texts brought by

this bishop, the original of which has been lost and of which there

remains the Chinese translation. Palmer and his team translated them

and they could revolutionise the history of Christianity. They

recount the life, the teachings, and the death of Christ with a

number of variants to that which we know, for example, that Mary was

visited there by a cool breeze sent by God, that Jesus was born in an

orchard and not

in a manger, and that his hair had been washed before his execution.

 

The translation of the Jesus Sutras is available in the Ballantine

edition

(http://www.fawcettbooks.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0-345-43424-

2) this year.

 

For amateurs interested in such enigmas, the research continues. And

by means of texts, traces of a Christian church in Tibet in the 16th

century have been discovered.

 

 

© 1999 Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi et Sahaja Yoga Switzerland <

[Guest guest]

on 1/16/03 12:28 PM, saktidasa <saktidasa at saktidasa

wrote:

> Namaste All,

>

> I picked this up and post here without prejudice........ONS...Tony.

>

>> Jesus Sutra discovered in China

 

 

Those damn missionaries sure get around, don't they! ;-)

 

....so Jesus was Chinese?

 

kidding.....Shawn

[Guest guest]

It's not surprising that Christians

(or anything you can imagine) would be

exported along the ancient "Silk Road".

This road stretched form Beirut to China,

and lasted 200 years after the death

of Jesus.

 

What would be more interesting to me is a

reference to Jesus himself travelling the

silk-road. If you were brave and strong,

you might join a caravan (100 BC - 200 AD)

and make a fortune (if not dying first).

The many peoples and cultures would have had a

profound influence on anyone traveling it.

And the ways of Jesus do seem Eastern.

 

(()), Bob

 

 

 

Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

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[Guest guest]

, Robert Lippert

<rslippert> wrote:

> It's not surprising that Christians

> (or anything you can imagine) would be

> exported along the ancient "Silk Road".

> This road stretched form Beirut to China,

> and lasted 200 years after the death

> of Jesus.

>

> What would be more interesting to me is a

> reference to Jesus himself travelling the

> silk-road. If you were brave and strong,

> you might join a caravan (100 BC - 200 AD)

> and make a fortune (if not dying first).

> The many peoples and cultures would have had a

> profound influence on anyone traveling it.

> And the ways of Jesus do seem Eastern.

>

> (()), Bob

 

Namaste,

 

My guess is that Nestorian Christianity, Arianism, and other forms

prevalent in Syria and Bagdad probably expanded along the silk route.

 

Jesus is supposed to have taken a caravan to India when he was a

teenager. Joseph of Aramithea's caravan. It is suggested by Cayce and

others........ONS....Tony.

[Guest guest]

A Christian is? What!???!!??

Here is a little exerpt for everyone about me,,

 

No matter what I tried to throw into my life there

still seemed to be something missing. Oh, it wasn’t a

religion or anything like that. I needed something

powerful, something real. I needed a somebody not a

something. Someone who knew what was going on.

Someone who loved me just as I was. I knew there was

a God but the fact that He actually liked me and cared

for me was a foreign concept to me. So I continued to

throw endlessly into this hole all the things that I

was always taught would fill me: relationships,

sports, fitness, hobbies, career, and any other vain

thing I could; but I was not filled. I became worried

and more frustrated than ever. But I was left hungry

for more love, more fulfillment.

A girlfriend brought (dragged) me to church because

she knew my emptiness, she had it before. We are in a

fallen world and have been separated from God by our

sins against Him. To my surprise, after the girl was

gone I was still going to church. I found out that I

loved it, and I saw that there was something no girl

could give, the unconditional love of God To ME. Also

at church, for some reason, people didn’t care about

my age, style, past, or color, they received me as a

brother. At a winter camp in the mountains I was

listening to the speaker and I realized that just

because I went to church didn’t mean I was a

Christian. And I finally figured out that not only

was God real, but God loved me beyond all human

comprehension and has been waiting all of my life for

me to finally realize it. So one day in march 1994 I

prayed and asked Christ into my heart to be my Savior

and Lord. How? Acts 16:31 says “believe in the Lord

Jesus and you will be saved.” But belief by

definition has commitment involved, so when I believed

I ceased to believe I was a God, and I believed in the

one true GOD. THERE IS ONLY ONE. I humbled myself,

and I was saved. Now

my desire is to pray to my God and to read His love

letter every day to find out just what those promises

mean, and what abundant life is all about- Jesus

Christ!

Why should you care? You don’t have time for God,

right? You have too many unanswered questions right?

Too many contradictions needing to be corrected before

you will commit to this way of life? Well, God’s

offer stands and you can stand there scratching you

head like I did for years thinking- ‘I wonder if it’s

true?” Or you can, like me and countless others, let

go of your life, and let God take your fears of death,

and of life, and of what other people thing of you and

you can stand to be different. How hard is it to sin?

Not hard at all. How hard is it to give in to

temptation? Easy as cake. Now, how hard is it to

follow Jesus? Way hard, too hard to do on our own for

sure… and this is why Religion fails. Man is trying

to live a Godly life and refusing to accept God’s free

gift of life. We need God’s personal relationship

established by free adoption into His family through

the benefits of being Born again (anew).

Why should you care? See, because we are not forced

to do the ‘right thing;’ Christianity unlike most

Religions, allows me to step aside and look at my life

and ‘choose’ for myself that this is what I want, I

don’t have to jump in the band wagon anymore, I don’t

have to. God taught me not ‘how it was’ but for the

first time in my life I was taught to think for myself

and to come to my own conclusions through the personal

aid of the Holy Spirit surrounding my life. Before I

asked for forgiveness and prayed to receive salvation,

I was forced to be a slave to everyone else’s ideas,

to just believe what people said because they have a

degree. Once I started to think for myself things

were different. No longer were things true ‘just

because we said so.’ Everything ahs a purpose for

being so. And I found out that I have a purpose for

being too. And you have purpose. You are not,

contrary to popular belief, a random conglomeration of

molecules that decided to make itself legs, and lungs,

and eyes and walk out of the sludge somewhere. When

you learn to think you realize certain things. This

stuff just doesn’t happen, it just doesn’t! Why is

it that we can believe in things so bizarre and crazy

when at the same time forget the simple logic of God.

 

In the year 1996, I got in an 80mph collision with

the center divider of the freeway where the car

flipped three times and skidded 500 feet on the roof,

right down the fast lane of morning commute. And I’ll

tell you what, nothing makes you think about the

afterlife when either you or someone you know are in

the process of death. 10 out of 10 die. See, I said

to God “If you are real…, and if you save me…, right

now lord as I am skidding to my death…I will give you

my life. And He not only saved me but I didn’t have a

scratch on me (and the car was totaled). 2 Pet

3:9 says paraphrased--“The Lord is not slack (He

doesn’t delay) concerning His promises, but even

though it seems that way to some, He is actually very

longsuffering (or extraordinarily patient) toward us.

And He is not willing that any should perish, but that

all should come to repentance.” He isn’t willing for

us to crash in this life, He want’s us to be safe.

My sole question in life, is something I completely

don’t understand- why isn’t everyone a Christian? It

was once said “An athiest has a reason but no hope for

his reason. A hypocrite has a hope, but no reason for

His hope. A Christian Has a reason for his hope and a

hope for His reason; and, I might add: Life with

Christ is an endless hope. Without Christ is a

hopeless end.

 

sign up and ask me questions!!!!!!!

BibleAnswersforALL/

 

 

--- Robert Lippert <rslippert wrote:

> It's not surprising that Christians

> (or anything you can imagine) would be

> exported along the ancient "Silk Road".

> This road stretched form Beirut to China,

> and lasted 200 years after the death

> of Jesus.

>

 

 

 

Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.

http://mailplus.

[Guest guest]

Hi Grady,

Thank you for sharing; for a change a Christian testimony which is

personal and not the usual propagandizing we usually hear.

 

I, too, have walked through the valley of the shadow of death.

I, too, have in the past given my life to Christ and that led me

right out of the churches, their organizations, their politics and

their confusions. The more deeply I studied the more I discovered

human manipulation of doctrine, of history, and even the very texts

used to support their views.

 

I then began to look for the Truth, for what is really real. The more

I looked outside myself the more I found I was far away from it.

Jesus had clearly said "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." I

finally gave up and began to examine myself.

 

I found the question "Who am I?" to be a fundamental. How did I get

here? Why am I in the state I am in? More and more I let go of all

the words, all the demands that I believe someone else's words and

began to discover that the world is transient, impermanent, but the

world is also a sacred place. The more I focussed on what is, and

what appeared to be, the more I discovered the sacredness of it all.

 

I found it in the rock, the leaf and the tree. I found it in my

backyard and in my neighbors. I found it in the striving and the

passion of even those I thought were enemies; I found that they were

either lost and trying to find their way, or they were striving for

truth and perfection and love -- and hadn't found it yet. They

hadn't learned to "let go"; I know where they are because I was once

there.

 

The Divine is present and available to every person all throughout

history, to each according to their need and/or their state of

consciousness. There is a "face" for everyone of us, for every form

of life, none left out. This world is the "Holy Writing" for it is

the creation; it is not ours to dominate, it is ours to care for -

and as we do we enter into a relationship with the Divine which is

where all religions began: in a direct luminous experience, free of

human opinion. The Garden of Eden is right here but it has another

name in English: Great Nature. Abuse it and it is filled with thorns;

care for it and we are nourished as promised. Avoiding the fruit of

the tree of good and evil, avoiding judgement and distinction (some

are in and some are out) we live in that Edenic place.

 

The key is to neither accept the world nor abandon it, rather it is

to see where we are with gratitude and appreciation for all the gifts

which it offers. "Behold, I have given you all good things. Accept

them and be blessed."

 

In the Torah we learn that every word is sacred and the name of God.

This is a fascinating concept and a key to finding the sacredness

beyond every appearance. This key is true in every spiritual teaching

on the planet. So Jehovah or Krishna, the Divine knows that we are

seeking the sacredness of it all, and in the end we find that we are

sacred too.

 

I am happy for you, that you have found your path, and it is right

for you, and I am happy for me, that I have found my path, and it is

right for me. The words may differ, but the sacredness remains for

those who are willing to stop and see it, experience it and live it.

 

This will be my only post on this subject. I will not debate nor

discuss doctrine, nor will I attempt to determine whose is the only

one right way. There are two faces to Christianity. You have found

one, it is Love; there is another, and I hope you never encounter it.

Stay in the experience and don't try to convert others with the

formulas of the church you are in. Only share yourself, your service

and your compassion, that is enough.

 

If you enter into a debate, either you will be frozen in your beliefs

and be diminished thereby, or your faith will be destroyed. Neither

is useful. Keep it simple and just live it. Then you will do well.

 

Be well.

John L.

 

 

 

 

, grady little <gradyll>

wrote:

> A Christian is? What!???!!??

> Here is a little exerpt for everyone about me,,

[Guest guest]

> Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:41:36 -0000

> "John Logan <johnrloganis" <johnrloganis

> If you enter into a debate, either you will be frozen in your beliefs

> and be diminished thereby, or your faith will be destroyed.

 

Sounds like some pretty rigid advice, there, John. ;-)

 

Jesus and Ramana were good debaters. And Shawn has really helped me see the

light (just kidding .

 

I guess it is best to keep an open mind, like Harsha recommends, in whatever

venue we prefer.

 

regards,

david.

[Guest guest]

Hi David,

I appreciate your concern. However I have dealt with a number of

fundamentalist Christians, born again, etc. Generally they crawl in a

box and hide from any truth that doesn't agree with what they have

been taught by their respective churches. Hence, frozen. If they

really open their minds and discover that there is another point of

view which is valid it tends to blow the box apart.

 

There is a third position, which I was addressing specifically in my

post. Stay open and stay fresh in the faith you have come to and

ignore the pickyness of frozen theologies. I have met many Christians

who have done just that -- they are too busy living the Love of the

Christ and following the real teachings of Jesus and not the dogmas

of Churchianity.

 

You are correct I was a bit rigid in my advice. What I was trying to

indicate was advice to live it and not get into the controversies and

the proselytizing coming from formulae lacking real spiritual

experience. There is a valid Christian path and it is lovely. There

is also another Christian path and it is ugly. To get into debate

with the ugly path as the background creates an atmosphere much like

the Muslim extremist fundamentalists.

 

I am a former Minister and when I opened up to the spiritual rather

than the religious I and others like me were attacked by a mob under

the guise of picketing, which in an earlier time would have

cheerfully taken us to the stake for burning. The look of hatred and

violence in their eyes made me think I was back in the time of the

inquisition and the burning of heretics.

 

Am I born again? They ask. My answer, "You bet." But not the way they

mean it and understand it. When you challenge their little formulas,

they froth at the mouth or disappear in a flurry. When I told some

fundamentalists that I had often seen God in the grass growing

beneath my feet, and could hear his voice in the wind - they went

nuts, condemning me as a witch or a satanist, dealing with the devil.

Yet when I asked them if they had ever directly experienced the

Divine, they muttered that mankind had become too sinful to hear the

Voice of God, except through their teachings and the blind faith that

they were correct!

 

Excuse me, rigid is not quite the right word, maybe a little

too "strong" rather.

 

Further my comments had to do with tiresome and endless, useless

discussions in other groups and forums -- because no one is listening

on the other end, except to their own voice of "truth" found in the

pages of their conversion manuals.

 

Does that help to understand where I am coming from? I am in a place

where I don't much put up with that "stuff" anymore and I am inclined

to get really cranky if I suspect someone is not listening when I

share -- but they expect me to listen and accept what they say as

gospel. And with my background and knowledge I can bite and I really

don't want to go there.

 

John L.

 

 

 

, "David King" <david.king@p...>

wrote:

> > Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:41:36 -0000

> > "John Logan <johnrloganis>" <johnrloganis>

>

> > If you enter into a debate, either you will be frozen in your

beliefs

> > and be diminished thereby, or your faith will be destroyed.

>

> Sounds like some pretty rigid advice, there, John. ;-)

>

> Jesus and Ramana were good debaters. And Shawn has really helped

me see the light (just kidding .

>

> I guess it is best to keep an open mind, like Harsha recommends, in

whatever venue we prefer.

>

> regards,

> david.

[Guest guest]

John,

 

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Blowing the box apart can be terrifying for

many and fear often shows up as anything but fear. Try a little nudge rather

than pulling the entire rug out.

 

"God, who is immanent, in his grace takes pity on the loving devotee and

manifest himself according to the devotee's development. The devotee thinks that

he is a man and expects a relationship between two physical bodies. But the Guru

who is God or the Self incarnate works from within, helps the man to see the

error of his ways and guides him on the right path until he realises the Self

within." - Sri Ramana Maharshi

 

regards,

david.

 

, "John Logan <johnrloganis>"

<johnrloganis> wrote:

> Hi David,

> I appreciate your concern. However I have dealt with a number of

> fundamentalist Christians, born again, etc. Generally they crawl in a

> box and hide from any truth that doesn't agree with what they have

> been taught by their respective churches. Hence, frozen. If they

> really open their minds and discover that there is another point of

> view which is valid it tends to blow the box apart.

[Guest guest]

Hi David,

That is why I told him to don't go there!

 

And did you notice I supported his present experience as authentic?

 

John L.

 

, "David King" <david.king@p...>

wrote:

> John,

>

> Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Blowing the box apart can be

terrifying for many and fear often shows up as anything but fear.

Try a little nudge rather than pulling the entire rug out.