Guest guest Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 thanks for these good and selected postings.. remember reading this earlier... and yes, this concept, as answered by Bhagavan, is clear .. but wait..... there are two aspects that come to mind about waking and dream state, after some deliberation : a. the dream state of two individual souls do not have any commonality; meaning, the dream world of A and dream world of B do not necessarily overlap; but the waking time overlaps; that is, if one individual spirit (or jeevaathmaa) is creating a waking imagination (based on its 'vasanaas' or past impressions and tendencies) of a world consisting of itself (with an identity of, say, mano) and its own body/relations/friends etc. and the world and the universe AND in that imagination, it sees/interacts with another spirit with an identity of, say, Alton, it just happens that the spirit that is identified as Alton also imagines (based on its own vasanas) its own form/body/relations/friends etc. and the world and the universe and that imagination includes the first spirit called mano... this commonolity isn't there in dream. b. the dream state does not have continuity like the waking state; ie., if one dreams a "dream world" tonight , the next time the same person gets into a dream world, it is not the same "dream world"; but the waking world has continuity across intermittent gaps within the same life time; so ideally, the dream states that occur within a life time can be compared ONLY with the waking times ACROSS births; in other words, the whole imagined life of an individual jeevaathmaa is like a dream that vanishes without trace when the next imagined lifetime starts (after death of the first lifetime)... somtimes, suddenly, the futility of all these thinking strikes and appears a foolish and vain pursuit compared to the actual meditational sadhana (or silent contemplation of one's own "being") but having gotten into a topic, the mind does not rest at peace until the trail of thoughts on that topic is traversed considerably.... hope all this is not too boring for the practisioners who come here...... love to all... RamanaMaharshi, "SAHAHJA QUEST" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > D: It is easy to accept tentatively that the world is not ultimately real, but it is hard to have the conviction that it is really unreal. > M: Even so is your world real while you are dreaming? So long as the dream lasts, everything you see and feel is real. > D: Is then the world nothing better than a dream? > M: What is wrong with the sense of reality you have while you are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 D: It is easy to accept tentatively that the world is not ultimately real, but it is hard to have the conviction that it is really unreal. M: Even so is your world real while you are dreaming? So long as the dream lasts, everything you see and feel is real. D: Is then the world nothing better than a dream? M: What is wrong with the sense of reality you have while you are dreaming? You may be dreaming of something quite impossible, for instance, of having a happy chat with a dear person. Just for a moment you may doubt in the dream, saying to yourself, " Was he not dead?" But somehow your mind reconciles itself to the dream vision, and the person is as good as alive for the purposes of the dream. In other words, the dream as a dream does not permit you to doubt its reality. Even so, you are unable to doubt the reality of the world of your wakeful experience and the dream world. Both are but creations of the mind, and so long as the mind is engrossed in either, it finds itself unable to deny the reality of the dream world while dreaming and of the waking world while awake. If, on the contrary, you withdraw your mind completely from the world and turn it within and abide thus, that is, if you keep awake always to the Self, which is the substratum of all experience, you will find the world, of which alone you are now aware, just as unreal as the world in which you live in your dream. The Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharshi ..Shambala Press Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Dear Man of 67, What is common about the waking state and dreaming is who they both are known by. Also common between them is that they are both experienced as real. Who knows them both? Where does the sense of reality come from that is present in both states? Advaita vedanta says that this "unknown knower of all that is known" is The Reality--The Sole Existance, Brahman. Brahman is real, The world is unreal, The world is none but Brahman. We are not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "manof678 <manof678>" <manof678> wrote: > thanks for these good and selected postings.. > > remember reading this earlier... and yes, this concept, as answered > by Bhagavan, is clear .. but wait..... > > there are two aspects that come to mind about waking and dream state, > after some deliberation : > > a. the dream state of two individual souls do not have any > commonality; meaning, the dream world of A and dream world of B do > not necessarily overlap; but the waking time overlaps; > > that is, if one individual spirit (or jeevaathmaa) is creating a > waking imagination (based on its 'vasanaas' or past impressions and > tendencies) of a world consisting of itself (with an identity of, > say, mano) and its own body/relations/friends etc. and the world and > the universe AND in that imagination, it sees/interacts with another > spirit with an identity of, say, Alton, it just happens that the > spirit that is identified as Alton also imagines (based on its own > vasanas) its own form/body/relations/friends etc. and the world and > the universe and that imagination includes the first spirit called > mano... > > this commonolity isn't there in dream. > > b. the dream state does not have continuity like the waking state; > ie., if one dreams a "dream world" tonight , the next time the same > person gets into a dream world, it is not the same "dream world"; but > the waking world has continuity across intermittent gaps within the > same life time; > > so ideally, the dream states that occur within a life time can be > compared ONLY with the waking times ACROSS births; in other words, > the whole imagined life of an individual jeevaathmaa is like a dream > that vanishes without trace when the next imagined lifetime starts > (after death of the first lifetime)... > > somtimes, suddenly, the futility of all these thinking strikes and > appears a foolish and vain pursuit compared to the actual > meditational sadhana (or silent contemplation of one's own "being") > but having gotten into a topic, the mind does not rest at peace until > the trail of thoughts on that topic is traversed considerably.... > > hope all this is not too boring for the practisioners who come > here...... > > love to all... > > RamanaMaharshi, "SAHAHJA QUEST" > <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > D: It is easy to accept tentatively that the world is not > ultimately real, but it is hard to have the conviction that it is > really unreal. > > M: Even so is your world real while you are dreaming? So long as > the dream lasts, everything you see and feel is real. > > D: Is then the world nothing better than a dream? > > M: What is wrong with the sense of reality you have while you are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 manof678, your observations regarding the dream and waking states are perceptive indeed. the way i would like to approach this issue is by observing that the one who talks about these states is responsible for the distinction between the terms 'dream' and 'waking'. if at all we are questioning the reality of something, it should be the reality of ANY external experience. this pattern of 'waking' interspersed with discontinuous 'dreams' should be treated as ONE EXTERNAL EXPERIENCE. both being external to us, no meaningful result can be obtained by comparing one in light of the other. we call one waking, another dreaming, observe that the waking state has a discontinuous consistency while the dream does not, and that the waking experiences of individuals overlap while the dreams do not. it is WE who make this distinction of two states, and compare and constrast each other. the very fact that we are convinced both exist means that WE persist through both. this entire experience of waking interrupted by dreams, and by extension, several "wakings" interrupted by death (though the past "wakings" are typically not recalled) occur to YOU or ME who talks about them. thus, the central issue is THE PERCEIVER who must be earnestly sought out, which is exactly what Bhagavan taught. hope this was helpful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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