Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 Hi Everybody: I posted some thoughts on the first type of bliss described by Patanjali in an earlier post. "The crux of I.17 seems to be a description of the first stage of bliss after the restriction of the fluctuations. I.18 describes the next stage. Later."-bg Yoga Sutra translated by Feuerstein: I.18 The other type of enstasy (the second stage-bg) has a residuum of subliminal-activators; it follows the former, cognitive enstasy upon the practice of the presented idea of cessation. F. describes the 'presented idea of cessation' as- just in sleep there is a presented-idea of 'non-occurrence' so also in the higher stages of cognitive enstasy there is an awareness of the gradual inhibition of all presented-ideas. translated by Iyengar: I.18 The void arising in these experiences is another samadhi. Hidden inpressions lie dormant, but spring up during moments of awareness, creating fluctuations and disturbing the purity of the consciousness. Iyengar comments- Here Patanjali mentions another state of samadhi in beween sabija and nirbija but does not name it. It is experienced with the cessation of all functions of the brain, leaving behind only the residual samskaras (tendencies). The word used for this state is virama pratyaya. BG-The first stage of bliss described by P. is object oriented and contains a sense of I amness, joy or cognitive awareness. In this second stage (I.18), (virama pratyaya), these fluctuation cease but the tendencies will arise again after the samadhi. This is not final but a transition stage before what is called nirbija samadhi. Iyengar I.19 In this state, one may experience bodilessness, or become merged in nature. This may lead to isolation or to a state of loneliness. Iyengar explains this by showing that upon awakening from dreamless sleep the average person glimpses a non physical state of existence and also the state of merging in nature. In sleep these two phases remain unconscious until one wakes, whereas evolved souls experience them consciously. Sleep is a natural condition of consciousness; samadhi is a superconscious state. Iyengar I.20 Practice must be pursued with trust, confidence, vigour, keen memory and power of absorption to break this spiritual complacency. I. explains with some detail how one can be halted in the progress toward the last stage of development (nirbija samadhi) by remaining in the stage described in I.18. As does Feuerstein in his commentary. Iyengar I.21 The goal is near for those who are vigorous and intense in practice. BG- I take this to mean not to stop the practice that got you there. Double up! Honor the pure (unadulterated) and honest in yourself and others. Meditate. There is a state of bliss where the tendencies will still arise. But one can go past that state, once the method is ingrained, if one does not block it. He refers to this later in III.51 also. To jump ahead to book II might clarify something. Feuerstein II.11 The fluctuations (immediate thoughts-bg) of the causes of afflictions (deeper tendencies-bg) are to be overcome by meditative- absorption. but before that: II.10 The causes of affliction, in their subtle form (as a tendency- bg), are to be overcome by the process of Involution. BG-Involution is the practice of self inquiry, asking "Who am I?". Involution means going back through the Ego, the tendency of separateness, to the real Self. Destroying this first tendency is what destroys all tendencies at their root. The manifestations of these tendencies are overcome or stopped by meditation. Bliss, consciousness, and what is real. Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 Hello Bobby G - This is wonderful, especially with your commentary. Thank you for sharing it with us. love, joyce , "texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...>" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > Hi Everybody: > > I posted some thoughts on the first type of bliss described by > Patanjali in an earlier post. > "The crux of I.17 seems to be a description of the first stage of > bliss after the restriction of the fluctuations. I.18 describes the > next stage. Later."-bg > > Yoga Sutra translated by Feuerstein: > I.18 The other type of enstasy (the second stage-bg) has a residuum > of subliminal-activators; it follows the former, cognitive enstasy > upon the practice of the presented idea of cessation. > F. describes the 'presented idea of cessation' as- just in sleep > there is a presented-idea of 'non-occurrence' so also in the higher > stages of cognitive enstasy there is an awareness of the gradual > inhibition of all presented-ideas. > > translated by Iyengar: > I.18 The void arising in these experiences is another samadhi. > Hidden inpressions lie dormant, but spring up during moments of > awareness, creating fluctuations and disturbing the purity of the > consciousness. > Iyengar comments- Here Patanjali mentions another state of samadhi in > beween sabija and nirbija but does not name it. It is experienced > with the cessation of all functions of the brain, leaving behind only > the residual samskaras (tendencies). The word used for this state is > virama pratyaya. > > BG-The first stage of bliss described by P. is object oriented and > contains a sense of I amness, joy or cognitive awareness. In this > second stage (I.18), (virama pratyaya), these fluctuation cease but > the tendencies will arise again after the samadhi. This is not final > but a transition stage before what is called nirbija samadhi. > > Iyengar > I.19 In this state, one may experience bodilessness, or become > merged in nature. This may lead to isolation or to a state of > loneliness. > Iyengar explains this by showing that upon awakening from dreamless > sleep the average person glimpses a non physical state of existence > and also the state of merging in nature. In sleep these two phases > remain unconscious until one wakes, whereas evolved souls experience > them consciously. Sleep is a natural condition of consciousness; > samadhi is a superconscious state. > > Iyengar > I.20 Practice must be pursued with trust, confidence, vigour, keen > memory and power of absorption to break this spiritual complacency. > I. explains with some detail how one can be halted in the progress > toward the last stage of development (nirbija samadhi) by remaining > in the stage described in I.18. As does Feuerstein in his commentary. > > Iyengar > I.21 The goal is near for those who are vigorous and intense in > practice. > > BG- I take this to mean not to stop the practice that got you there. > Double up! Honor the pure (unadulterated) and honest in yourself and > others. Meditate. There is a state of bliss where the tendencies > will still arise. But one can go past that state, once the method is > ingrained, if one does not block it. He refers to this later in > III.51 also. > > To jump ahead to book II might clarify something. > > Feuerstein > II.11 The fluctuations (immediate thoughts-bg) of the causes of > afflictions (deeper tendencies-bg) are to be overcome by meditative- > absorption. > > but before that: > II.10 The causes of affliction, in their subtle form (as a tendency- > bg), are to be overcome by the process of Involution. > > BG-Involution is the practice of self inquiry, asking "Who am I?". > Involution means going back through the Ego, the tendency of > separateness, to the real Self. Destroying this first tendency is > what destroys all tendencies at their root. > > The manifestations of these tendencies are overcome or stopped by > meditation. > > Bliss, consciousness, and what is real. > Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 Hi Bob, I am finding the Mukunda Stiles translation to be very clear without some of the "academic" jargon used by Feuerstein. His translation of I, 18 reads "Another form of thorough knowledge is preceded by resolute practice to completely erase identification with the contents of the mind. As a result, only subliminal impressions remain and their residue has no impact on the mind." He is not quite as clear as Iyengar in verses 19 and 20, so I won't quote those verses. The distinction given in these two verses 17 and 18 is "samadhi with seed" - a sense of self, and "samadhi without seed" - no sense of self, and as you pointed out the transition state indicated in moving from one to the other state. Just another view of the translation and its meaning. John L. , "texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...>" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > Hi Everybody: > > I posted some thoughts on the first type of bliss described by > Patanjali in an earlier post. > "The crux of I.17 seems to be a description of the first stage of > bliss after the restriction of the fluctuations. I.18 describes the > next stage. Later."-bg > > Yoga Sutra translated by Feuerstein: > I.18 The other type of enstasy (the second stage-bg) has a residuum > of subliminal-activators; it follows the former, cognitive enstasy > upon the practice of the presented idea of cessation. > F. describes the 'presented idea of cessation' as- just in sleep > there is a presented-idea of 'non-occurrence' so also in the higher > stages of cognitive enstasy there is an awareness of the gradual > inhibition of all presented-ideas. > > translated by Iyengar: > I.18 The void arising in these experiences is another samadhi. > Hidden inpressions lie dormant, but spring up during moments of > awareness, creating fluctuations and disturbing the purity of the > consciousness. > Iyengar comments- Here Patanjali mentions another state of samadhi in > beween sabija and nirbija but does not name it. It is experienced > with the cessation of all functions of the brain, leaving behind only > the residual samskaras (tendencies). The word used for this state is > virama pratyaya. > > BG-The first stage of bliss described by P. is object oriented and > contains a sense of I amness, joy or cognitive awareness. In this > second stage (I.18), (virama pratyaya), these fluctuation cease but > the tendencies will arise again after the samadhi. This is not final > but a transition stage before what is called nirbija samadhi. > > Iyengar > I.19 In this state, one may experience bodilessness, or become > merged in nature. This may lead to isolation or to a state of > loneliness. > Iyengar explains this by showing that upon awakening from dreamless > sleep the average person glimpses a non physical state of existence > and also the state of merging in nature. In sleep these two phases > remain unconscious until one wakes, whereas evolved souls experience > them consciously. Sleep is a natural condition of consciousness; > samadhi is a superconscious state. > > Iyengar > I.20 Practice must be pursued with trust, confidence, vigour, keen > memory and power of absorption to break this spiritual complacency. > I. explains with some detail how one can be halted in the progress > toward the last stage of development (nirbija samadhi) by remaining > in the stage described in I.18. As does Feuerstein in his commentary. > > Iyengar > I.21 The goal is near for those who are vigorous and intense in > practice. > > BG- I take this to mean not to stop the practice that got you there. > Double up! Honor the pure (unadulterated) and honest in yourself and > others. Meditate. There is a state of bliss where the tendencies > will still arise. But one can go past that state, once the method is > ingrained, if one does not block it. He refers to this later in > III.51 also. > > To jump ahead to book II might clarify something. > > Feuerstein > II.11 The fluctuations (immediate thoughts-bg) of the causes of > afflictions (deeper tendencies-bg) are to be overcome by meditative- > absorption. > > but before that: > II.10 The causes of affliction, in their subtle form (as a tendency- > bg), are to be overcome by the process of Involution. > > BG-Involution is the practice of self inquiry, asking "Who am I?". > Involution means going back through the Ego, the tendency of > separateness, to the real Self. Destroying this first tendency is > what destroys all tendencies at their root. > > The manifestations of these tendencies are overcome or stopped by > meditation. > > Bliss, consciousness, and what is real. > Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 , "texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...>" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > Hi Everybody: > > I posted some thoughts on the first type of bliss described by > Patanjali in an earlier post. > "The crux of I.17 seems to be a description of the first stage of > bliss after the restriction of the fluctuations. I.18 describes Namaste, Bliss is probably a little misleading to some, samadhi in the Vedantic sense is a better one. For there is only one experience of Bliss, Samadhi in the Buddhist sense is something different again, more akin to concentration or even trance. There are various levels of samadhi, five are averred by yogis like Ramana. Holding on to Reality, holding with effort, being unaware of the world, sleep, remaining in the Reality without effort--sahaja. There is another section of sleep which is called yoga nidra, sleep being unconscious bliss, except the body is totally immobilised. Sleep is samadhi with only the one thought of being asleep. >From my experience Yoga Nidra is somewhat more deeper than this, unconscious but with a different situation re vasanas/samskaras etc. In yoga nidra one can train oneself to be absorbed for a time, such as 20 minutes or 200 years. This is my experience or non experience of this particular state........ONS.....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 > I am finding the Mukunda Stiles translation to be very clear without > some of the "academic" jargon used by Feuerstein. > > His translation of I, 18 reads > "Another form of thorough knowledge is preceded by resolute practice > to completely erase identification with the contents of the mind. As > a result, only subliminal impressions remain and their residue has no > impact on the mind." > > He is not quite as clear as Iyengar in verses 19 and 20, so I won't > quote those verses. > > The distinction given in these two verses 17 and 18 is "samadhi with > seed" - a sense of self, and "samadhi without seed" - no sense of > self, and as you pointed out the transition state indicated in moving > from one to the other state. > > Just another view of the translation and its meaning. > > John L. Hi John: I have heard that before about the samadhi with/out seed, years ago but did not know what it meant. I like this comparison thing with the different authors and feed back is good too. Object oriented samadhi with accompanying bliss was very powerful for me several years ago. Now I am over come with gladness by simple things but my practice has fallen so low that I think I am stuck at that "other" or transition state. The love is very tangible but the indication from these aphorisms is that it can get a lot better. Thanks bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 > Namaste, > > Bliss is probably a little misleading to some, samadhi in the > Vedantic sense is a better one. For there is only one experience of > Bliss, Samadhi in the Buddhist sense is something different again, > more akin to concentration or even trance. Hi tony: Yeah, I know. I throw out a word like bliss and it could mean different things to different people. According to P. bliss has four aspects :cogitation, reflection, joy and I amness. Even throwing out those words is hit or miss. About reflection, I have always loved knowing things. I mean love it. solving a problem was a matter of loving the answer. To me the feelings are the same when "I Know" and when "I Love". The gladness is there. I don't have one without the other. That is bliss to me. Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 > > > > This is wonderful, especially with your commentary. Thank you for > sharing it with us. > > love, > joyce > Hi Joyce Thanks for reading it. I am glad you liked it. If John is willing to keep corresponding about P. maybe we can do it some more. It is a lot of fun for me. Love bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 Hi Bob, Just to clarify the terms about samadhi with and without seed: "sabija and nirbija " "bija" means "seed" and the terms quoted from your original post on this thread are apparently shorthand terms: "sabija" probably means "with seed" and "nirbija" clearly means "not-seed". However I don't find these terms in either Stiles or Feuerstein, nor in their glossaries. In The Shambala Encyclopedia of Yoga, Feuerstein, editor, the reference to "sabija-samadhi" points to the Yoga-Bhashya and the Yoga-Varttika. The term "nirbija-samadhi" is referred to in Patanjali I,51. "Seed" by the way refers to the "an object of concentration". This is another of those situations in which the Yoga Sutras are really "teacher's notes" and the teacher is expected to expand them in "class discusssions" and training. John L. , "texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...>" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: [snip] My earlier post and more clarification above. > > I am finding the Mukunda Stiles translation to be very clear > without > > some of the "academic" jargon used by Feuerstein. > > > > The distinction given in these two verses 17 and 18 is "samadhi > with > > seed" - a sense of self, and "samadhi without seed" - no sense of > > self, and as you pointed out the transition state indicated in > moving > > from one to the other state. > > > > Just another view of the translation and its meaning. > > > > John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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