Guest guest Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 This is one of those fabulous texts you get sometimes. It demonstrates in a very funny way ad absurdum the attitude of good and upright people based on the parial knowledge of the Bible. Or maybe it's also a prime example that we humans are perfect in selective cognition of information and unconscious modification of our reality as we need it. Of course without even wondering about resulting inconsistencies... It's really worth (and fun) to read, independent if you're interestend in discussions about homosexuality or what your opinion about it is. For those of you that did not follow the controversy that had to do with Laura Schlessinger: she is a radio personality who dispenses Advice to people who call in to her radio show. She has become a convert to Judaism and has made some statements about homosexuals that have caused the Canadian anti-hate laws to censure her. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.... ENJOY. Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them. 1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence. 4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)? I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan. Jake Well, in the land of endless possibilities (except some minor and selected bibly restricitons) everything is possible... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 you're right David this really is funny. Bobby , David Bozzi <david.bozzi@i...> wrote: > This is one of those fabulous texts you get sometimes. It demonstrates in a > very funny way ad absurdum the attitude of good and upright people based > on the parial knowledge of the Bible. Or maybe it's also a prime example that > we humans are perfect in selective cognition of information and unconscious > modification of our reality as we need it. Of course without even wondering > about resulting inconsistencies... > > It's really worth (and fun) to read, independent if you're interestend in > discussions about homosexuality or what your opinion about it is. > > For those of you that did not follow the controversy that had to > do with Laura Schlessinger: she is a radio personality who dispenses Advice > to people who call in to her radio show. She has become a > convert to Judaism and has made some statements about homosexuals that > have caused the Canadian anti-hate laws to censure her. > > The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which > was posted on the Internet.... ENJOY. > > > Dear Dr. Laura, > > Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have > learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with > as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual > lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it > to be an abomination. End of debate. > > I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific > laws and how to best follow them. > > 1. > When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a > pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. > They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? > > 2. > I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus > 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for > her? > > 3. > I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in > her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, > how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence. > > 4. > Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and > female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A > friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not > Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? > > 5. > I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus > 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated > to kill him myself? > > 6. > A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an > Abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than > homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? > > 7. > Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have > a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. > Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? > > 8. > Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair > around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by > Lev.19:27. How should they die? > > 9. > I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes > me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? > > 10. > My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two > different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing > garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester > blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really > necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town > together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them > to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep > with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)? > > I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can > help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and > unchanging. > > Your devoted disciple and adoring fan. > > Jake > > Well, in the land of endless possibilities (except some minor and selected bibly > restricitons) everything is possible... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 , "texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...>" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > you're right David this really is funny. It *is* really funny. Thank God that He would never sentence us to interpretations of who He is. He has totally cut out the need for any middle man of any kind. (what a Guy) When His Son revealed that, he was murdered. Some people will always prefer perception over Knowledge. What is Knowledge? I don't know anything about that. I'm stuck with perception. Here God, take my perception You know better than me... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST Bhau Kalchuri Godhood is the state of the Self-Realized human being. In the state of Godhood there are three aspects — the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. The state of the Father is Nirvikalp-Samadhi, and there is only God-Consciousness and no consciousness of the creation. The experience of the human being in the state of Nirvikalp-Samadhi is "I am God and there is nothing besides me. I alone exist." The creation exists in non-existence, therefore, the creation does not exist in the experience of the Father state. "I am existence. I am self- existent." The state of the Son is Sahaj-Samadhi, and in this divine state there is God-Consciousness plus the consciousness of all creation. The experience of the human being in the state of Sahaj-Samadhi is "I am God and I am everyone and everything." Though the creation exists in non-existence, the creation only exists for this God-Realized person as illusion, as his imagination. The experience of the Son state is, "I am existence. Creation is my shadow." The Avatar is eternally in the state of the Son, and his eternal experience is "I am God and I am Everyone and everything." As God, the Avatar enjoys Infinite Bliss, Power and Knowledge, but, as everyone and everything, he suffers in the infinite weakness and infinite ignorance. The Avatar suffers because his experience is not of everyone and everything, but he has become everyone and everything. The Holy Ghost is actually everyone and everything. But the conscious state of the Holy Ghost is not experienced until one has achieved the state of the Son — Sahaj-Samadhi. The Jivan-Muktas and Sadgurus also experience Sahaj-Samadhi, "I am God and I am everyone and everything," but these God-Realized human beings do not become everyone and everything as the Avatar does. The spiritual duty of the Avatar is to take on responsibility for everyone and everything. The Jivan-Mukta has spiritual duty for one other human being; the Perfect Master has spiritual duty to a number of individuals, mainly his circle. But the Avatar alone has a spiritual duty to fulfill to all. The experience in Sahaj-Samadhi of "I am everyone and everything" does not mean that one actually becomes everyone and everything after God-Realization. This becoming of everyone and everything only happens with the Avatar, who has to become not only one with all by being responsible for all, but who has to actually become one and all. The Jivan-Muktas and Sadgurus have become one with all, but only the Avatar becomes one and all. AVATAR OF THE AGE MEHER BABA MANIFESTING, pp. 174-175 Copyright 1985 Lawrence Reiter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 , "devianandi <devi@p...>" <devi@p...> wrote: > THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST > Bhau Kalchuri > > Godhood is the state of the Self-Realized human being. In the state > of Godhood there are three aspects — the Father, the Son and the Holy > Ghost. The state of the Father is Nirvikalp-Samadhi, and there is > only God-Consciousness and no consciousness of the creation. The > experience of the human being in the state of Nirvikalp-Samadhi is "I Namaste, These are interesting concepts, and the state of avatar or bodhisattva is an interesting subject. As far as I have learned these being are supposed to be ordinary beings who put off final liberation, with the one thought/desire to help suffering humanity. They are I suppose at the state of the absorption with the Goddess/Saguna Energy. A step on the way to complete moksha at death of the body. Avatar means to cross down in sankrit and we are all avatars essentially, except we are ignorant of the fact. A Jivanmukti then who lives on is an avatar also. It is a concept for we are all ultimately unreal.............ONS........Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 So profound was the concept and knowledge of God amongst certain pagan peoples in the ancient world, and in particular the Greek and Roman worlds, that a controversy eventually arose and was to rage for many centuries between those who propagated and preserved that knowledge of God as the Creator, and those who sought to destroy it by attributing the creation of the universe to purely natural forces. The marked similarity between that pagan controversy and the controversy that rages today between creationists and evolutionists is surprising and we shall be examining that controversy in this chapter. But first we must understand something of the sheer profundity of the pagan philosophical concept of the one true God. We meet with it in places as distant from each other as the world is wide, and among cultures as socially and politically diverse as those of ancient Greece and China. For example, it is from the writings of the Taoist Lao-tzu, who flourished in the China of the 6th century BC, that the following profound statement concerning the existence and some of the attributes of God is taken: 'Before time, and throughout time, there has been a self-existing being, eternal, infinite, complete, omnipresent Outside this being, before the beginning, there was nothing.' (1) It was clearly from no copy of Genesis that Lao-tzu could possibly have derived such an awareness of God. But then as other pagan philosophers from different cultures altogether were to add their convictions to that of the Chinese sage Lao-tzu, (and that takes no account of all those who lived before him), it becomes immediately obvious that no such copy was necessary. It would seem that, contrary to most of the assumptions of modern psychology on the matter, the knowledge of God is in fact and indeed innate within the human soul. It is a built-in awareness that may well be awakened and perfected with the reception of God's Word, but it is certainly something that exists quite independently of a knowledge of scripture. That is not to say that it was admitted to or proclaimed equally by all men in the ancient world. Many, of course, denied it just as they deny it today, for alongside every Lao-tzu who proclaimed the existence of God in the world of ancient China, there was a Kuo-Hsiang ready to dispute it: 'I venture to ask whether the creator is or is not. If he is not, how can he create things? The creating of things has no Lord; everything creates itself.' (2) But such exceptions gloriously prove the rule. For the existence of the Creator to be denied by one philosopher, it first has to be expounded by another, and the question that interests us here is where did that knowledge come from? If not from scripture, which was unknown to these peoples, then from where? If not from Christian missionary teachers who did not yet exist, then from whom? For, imperfect as the concept of God may have been among the early pagans, it was nevertheless very real, often profound, and can only have been founded upon a body of knowledge that had been preserved amongst the early races from a particular point in history. What that point in history was may become evident as our study proceeds and as we meet with the families of humankind dispersing from a single point around the globe. But that it was profound and in many ways inspiring, can hardly be denied, as the following ancient text from Heliopolis in Egypt testifies: 'I am the creator of all things that exist...that came forth from my mouth. Heaven and earth did not exist, nor had been created the herbs of the ground nor the creeping things. I raised them out of the primeval abyss from a state of non-being...' (3) It would not be overstating the case to say that the Egyptian concept of a divine creation of the universe was so strongly held that throughout Egypt it governed every sphere of thought and action, political, educational, philosophical and so on. And it is also noteworthy to consider that there is no record anywhere amongst the vast amount of literature to be recovered from ancient Egypt, that suggests that this view was ever challenged. Nowhere in all the long history of Egypt do we find that a philosopher arose who was prepared to propagate the notion that the universe came into being through the agency of non-divine forces and processes. There were indeed other types of heretic and dissident, notably the pharaoh Akhnaten who sought to bring all Egypt under the persuasion that there was but one god instead of the many that the Egyptians worshipped, but this was hardly atheism or a materialist concept that denied the place and reality of the Creator. (4) On the contrary, it was an effort, albeit an unsuccessful effort ultimately, on the part of Akhnaten to clear away much of the theological dross and debris that had obscured by his day the purity of the concept of such a Creator. Curiously, we meet with the same lack of challenge to the creationist view almost throughout the ancient literate world. For example, we encounter this same absence of atheism or materialism in both Mesopotamia and early Israel, where records make no mention at all of any materialist thinker even by way of condemnation or refutation, save perhaps the solitary biblical observation that, 'the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God'. (5) This, of course, presupposes the existence of such fools at the time the statement was written, ca 1000 BC, yet not a shadow of a controversy has come down to us that so much as hints that the prevailing creationist view was ever challenged or even questioned in the ancient Middle East, so strongly was it held to in that region of the earth at least. And that is a notable fact that no one, to my knowledge, has ever sought to examine. (6) Indeed, in every major culture throughout the ancient world of which we have any record, the overwhelming consensus was that the universe had been created by often a single and usually supreme divine being (even in notoriously polytheistic cultures). But more remarkably, each culture was capable of expressing a view of the Creator that was not always perverse even though it flourished in the midst of an aggressive and thoroughly perverse paganism. For example, amongst the early Greeks we have in the Theogony of Hesiod (8th century BC) an account of the creation of the world that bears unmistakable and remarkably close similarities with the Genesis account: --- "saktidasa <saktidasa" <saktidasa wrote: > , "devianandi > <devi@p...>" > <devi@p...> wrote: > > THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST > > Bhau Kalchuri Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 , grady little <gradyll> wrote: > So profound was the concept and knowledge of God > amongst certain pagan peoples in the ancient world, Namaste, I don 't want to be a minimalist or absolutist on this issue. Of course, almost all myths and legends have some tiny kernel of truth, but even finding that kernel does not eliminate the mythical nature of the stories. Without becoming long too winded, let me just say that we have no archaeological or archival evidence for an Egyptian exodus, nor for a Cannanite conquest by outsiders. For most of Palestinian history before the Assyrian period, Palestine was a part of the Egyptian Empire, fortified by Egyptian outposts all along its borders. In all liklihood these ancient legendary traditions you call upon probably did exist, but most likely they recalled incidents within Palestine itself (which was controlled by Egypt). The momentum in this field is toward belief that Judaism arose within Palestine via existing indigeneous Semites. The outside influences (which are considerable) found within the Old Testament are virtually devoid of Egyptian influence and are mostly derivitive of Babylonian myths. The survival of baby Moses comes from the similar story of the birth of Sargon, the Akkadian ruler. The first verses of Genesis are derivitive of the Babylonian Enuma Elish, The Flood and the snake/Eve/Apple story all come from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamish. The tower of Babel is clearly derivitive of the ziggurats of Babylon. Even the Laws of the Pentateuch, including purity ritual laws, have been shown to be consistent with the imperially mandated constitution and laws of the ruling Achaemenid elite in Babylon during the 4th and 3rd century BCE. Many classical Jewish sentiments (eye for an eye, etc.) are found within the Laws of Hammurabi, the Babylonian King. The genre of the Apocalypse literature later borrowed by the Jews was first invented in Persia and is demonstrated best in the Akkadian Prophecies and the Dynastic Prophecies. As you probably suspect, my background is in these ancient literatures. My problem with your pre-existing legendary tradition idea is that I can find, in virtually every case, a pre-existent myth within the Babylonian/Sumerian/Persian melieu that almost identically pre-sages the later Hebrew myths. Given that the intellectual Hebrew elite lived out their exile years within the highly literate Babylonian culture, I have a hard time finding ANYTHING historical that is inherently Jewish. For me, the Hebrew culture was history's greatest borrower. I don't mean this as a bad thing. Let's face it, they're still trucking and the Babylonians and Sumerians are all long gone. Rod Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Rod, A little off subject, but..... Do you know where I can get my hands on sanskrit writings about caravans on the old silk road 100BCE - 100 AD? Where does one obtain ancient writings? Is there any truth to Jesus having been in such a caravan? I'm also interested in any writings on the spread of Indian religions to the middle East from the silk road. And anything on Lake Urmia. I'm trying to piece together what it was like in a caravan of that time period and write a historic fiction. Has this been done, that you know of? Bob Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2003 Report Share Posted February 27, 2003 , Robert Lippert <rslippert> wrote: > Rod, > > A little off subject, but..... > Do you know where I can get my hands on > sanskrit writings about caravans on the > old silk road 100BCE - 100 AD? > Where does one obtain ancient writings? > > Is there any truth to Jesus > having been in such a caravan? > > I'm also interested in any writings > on the spread of Indian religions > to the middle East from the silk road. > And anything on Lake Urmia. > > I'm trying to piece together > what it was like in a caravan of that time > period and write a historic fiction. > Has this been done, that you know of? > > Bob Namaste, There were Buddhist installations in Alexandria and other places in the ME. Mostly set up by Asoka, however Alexander also introduced some into the area. It is believed Jesus did take a caravan to India in his teens, this was rumoured to be one of Joseph of Arimethea's........ONS....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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