Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Hi: Today I went to my dentist. She doing a lot of work for me in trade for artwork. And there is a problem. She lost a daughter two years ago, a child, and she is not recovering from it. There is a brittle barrier between her and any event that may be a bridge to her memories of her lost child. I, of course, must honor her reticence. The work I was to have traded her was to be a portrait of the little girl and also a portrait of her living daughter. She has already done a tremendous amount of good for me as I was ill from abcesses and neglect. As a dentist she feels she hurts her patients too much. When I filled a prescription, the pharmacist saw it and joked that she always apologizes to her patients for hurting them, which was true in my case, profusely so. It has been more than six months and I have not started on any work for her. She cannot face it nor can her husband, a school teacher. I have been dwelling on a way to be a friend to her. I few years ago I read 'The Creative Mind' by Henri Bergson the Nobel laureate. It is about metaphysics. He also who wrote on time and duration. "Metaphysics, most generally, the philosophical investigation of the nature, constitution, and structure of reality. It is broader in scope than science, e.g., physics...." Panayot Butchvarov, Univ of Iowa for the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy. In order to be called an entity or 'real', philosophy of metaphysics gives a list of criteria. An entity must be either an individual thing, or a property, or a relation, or an event, or a state of affairs, or a set. These categories are not complete but that is the idea. All of these except the first has to do with people on the scene or it would not exist. I came away from Bergson with the idea that Physics describes phenomena without people and metaphysics describes phenomena with people on the scene. Beauty is a category of experience. Everything is beautiful but sometimes we block that beauty. The more we want to hurt ourselves the more we block the beauty. Beauty is real but dependent on people and art must deal with beauty and its blockage. If the mind's fear of pain blocks the perception of the pain then the heart never has the chance to absorb it, and the mechanisms of life in the metaphysical sense, are eventually damaged. The heart is as big as the ocean. The fear of pain is in the head. I left Dr. Ann with two paintings until she overcomes her fear that she will be consumed by pain and I can paint her lost treasure. People are so lovely. Love, Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Hi Bobby, Can you paint anything else for her? Is it possible for you to pay in regular funds for the time-being, till her recovery proceeds? That's a neat distinction between physics and metaphysics - but really, both of them usually (not always) seek to describe things regardless of the presence of other people. There are some philosophers, such as Hegel and Berkeley the idealists, who base reality claims on ideas or thought processes. And scientists since Heisenberg and maye before, do take obervation into account in existential claims. And of course we must count people as among those objects that metaphysics categorizes. They fall under the category usually of "individuals." An Eastern twist to that of course is, Is there even *one* individual?? Interesting - back in the mid 70's I corresponded with Prof. Panayot Butchvarov while looking for grad schools, and he invited me to study with him at Iowa. I ended up not going there, but I remember our correpsondence warmly. That's when people used, like paper and typewriters and stuff! I wish Dr. Ann well, it will probably be good for her if you are around! --Greg At 12:20 AM 4/12/03 +0000, texasbg2000 wrote: >Hi: > >Today I went to my dentist. She doing a lot of work for me in trade >for artwork. And there is a problem. She lost a daughter two years >ago, a child, and she is not recovering from it. There is a brittle >barrier between her and any event that may be a bridge to her >memories of her lost child. I, of course, must honor her reticence. >The work I was to have traded her was to be a portrait of the little >girl and also a portrait of her living daughter. > >She has already done a tremendous amount of good for me as I was ill >from abcesses and neglect. As a dentist she feels she hurts her >patients too much. When I filled a prescription, the pharmacist saw >it and joked that she always apologizes to her patients for hurting >them, which was true in my case, profusely so. > >It has been more than six months and I have not started on any work >for her. She cannot face it nor can her husband, a school teacher. > >I have been dwelling on a way to be a friend to her. > >I few years ago I read 'The Creative Mind' by Henri Bergson the Nobel >laureate. It is about metaphysics. He also who wrote on time and >duration. > >"Metaphysics, most generally, the philosophical investigation of the >nature, constitution, and structure of reality. It is broader in >scope than science, e.g., physics...." Panayot Butchvarov, Univ of >Iowa for the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy. > >In order to be called an entity or 'real', philosophy of metaphysics >gives a list of criteria. An entity must be either an individual >thing, or a property, or a relation, or an event, or a state of >affairs, or a set. These categories are not complete but that is the >idea. All of these except the first has to do with people on the >scene or it would not exist. > >I came away from Bergson with the idea that Physics describes >phenomena without people and metaphysics describes phenomena with >people on the scene. > >Beauty is a category of experience. Everything is beautiful but >sometimes we block that beauty. The more we want to hurt ourselves >the more we block the beauty. > >Beauty is real but dependent on people and art must deal with beauty >and its blockage. > >If the mind's fear of pain blocks the perception of the pain then the >heart never has the chance to absorb it, and the mechanisms of life >in the metaphysical sense, are eventually damaged. > >The heart is as big as the ocean. The fear of pain is in the head. > >I left Dr. Ann with two paintings until she overcomes her fear that >she will be consumed by pain and I can paint her lost treasure. > >People are so lovely. > >Love, >Bobby G. > > > > >meditationsocietyofamerica > > > >Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Hi Bobby, Can you paint anything else for her? Is it possible for you to pay in regular funds for the time-being, till her recovery proceeds? Hi Greg: Yes I want to paint something else for her. Her husband mentioned a stream near their house with a windmill. I know it is avoidance and they admit it. I think the portrait would be painful but a good thing to do. Of course I cant say that to them. They have to decide. Time will tell and when it is right I will paint her. I need an emotional hook for myself and I really want to do a good picture for them. Greg-That's a neat distinction between physics and metaphysics - but really, both of them usually (not always) seek to describe things regardless of the presence of other people. bg-Yes I know they do. I am glad you picked up on the distinction I was making. Balls of rocks flying around big balls of fire, and the effects of gravity can be predicted by physics but human reactions have other variables that would have no influence on those physical entities. For instance. There is a car wreck and witnesses. All the witnesses agree it was one person's fault, but in truth they are all mistaken for whatever reasons. Blame is placed and insurance claims are paid and the money is used for this and so on. People proceed with the mistake as bona fide reality. In fact, it IS reality in the metaphysical sense because all cause and effect results make it bona fide history. The dynamics at work follow rules of human behavior not always in evidence. What was observed became reality because that is what affected the future course of events. Greg-There are some philosophers, such as Hegel and Berkeley the idealists, who base reality claims on ideas or thought processes. And scientists since Heisenberg and maye before, do take obervation into account in existential claims. bg-That is right. Well, i know about Heisenberg. Greg-And of course we must count people as among those objects that metaphysics categorizes. They fall under the category usually of "individuals." An Eastern twist to that of course is, Is there even *one* individual?? bg- a neat thought but underlying that idea is recognition that there is no universe that we know of that does not have an observer. Whether the observer is in it or IS it. There is no universe without the observer. Greg-Interesting - back in the mid 70's I corresponded with Prof. Panayot Butchvarov while looking for grad schools, and he invited me to study with him at Iowa. I ended up not going there, but I remember our correpsondence warmly. That's when people used, like paper and typewriters and stuff! I wish Dr. Ann well, it will probably be good for her if you are around! bg-Thanks Greg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 , "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote: > Hi Bobby, > > Can you paint anything else for her? Is it possible for you to pay in > regular > funds for the time-being, till her recovery proceeds? > > Hi Greg: > > Yes I want to paint something else for her. Her husband mentioned a > stream near their house with a windmill. I know it is avoidance and > they admit it. I think the portrait would be painful but a good > thing to do. Of course I cant say that to them. They have to > decide. Time will tell and when it is right I will paint her. I > need an emotional hook for myself and I really want to do a good > picture for them. > > Greg-That's a neat distinction between physics and metaphysics - but > really, both of > them usually (not always) seek to describe things regardless of the > presence of > other people. > > bg-Yes I know they do. I am glad you picked up on the distinction I > was making. Balls of rocks flying around big balls of fire, and the > effects of gravity can be predicted by physics but human reactions > have other variables that would have no influence on those physical > entities. > > For instance. There is a car wreck and witnesses. All the witnesses > agree it was one person's fault, but in truth they are all mistaken > for whatever reasons. Blame is placed and insurance claims are paid > and the money is used for this and so on. People proceed with the > mistake as bona fide reality. In fact, it IS reality in the > metaphysical sense because all cause and effect results make it bona > fide history. The dynamics at work follow rules of human behavior > not always in evidence. What was observed became reality because > that is what affected the future course of events. > > Greg-There are some philosophers, such as Hegel and Berkeley the > idealists, who base reality claims on ideas or thought processes. And > scientists since Heisenberg and maye before, do take obervation into > account in > existential claims. > > bg-That is right. Well, i know about Heisenberg. > > Greg-And of course we must count people as among those objects > that metaphysics categorizes. They fall under the category usually of > "individuals." An Eastern twist to that of course is, Is there even > *one* > individual?? > > > bg- a neat thought but underlying that idea is recognition that there > is no universe that we know of that does not have an observer. > Whether the observer is in it or IS it. There is no universe without > the observer. > > Greg-Interesting - back in the mid 70's I corresponded with Prof. > Panayot Butchvarov > while looking for grad schools, and he invited me to study with him > at Iowa. I > ended up not going there, but I remember our correpsondence warmly. > That's > when people used, like paper and typewriters and stuff! > > I wish Dr. Ann well, it will probably be good for her if you are > around! > > bg-Thanks Greg. Dear Bobby, I resonated with your writing about your dentist, for I, too, lost a beloved daughter many years ago. My brother said that it was as if my soul were bruised and I put up a steel wall with iron spikes to keep people out. I wanted to say that I didn't put it up--it came with the territory. However, there it was and there I was....what to do? I completely understand where your dentist is coming from. No one will be able to honor her grief, however. That is also part of the territory. The isolation must be lived with and then dismantled brick by brick, stone by stone--but only when she is ready. I find that losing a child is a life lesson and I am not sure what we who have lost children are learning. I tend to protect myself and therefore others from feeling the inner devastation. It causes compassion as well as self-pity. It is as if I am saying silently to people--careful, don't come too close--don't want you to fall into the abyss. With that warning is love as well as fear. Who is to say what is going on here? Just send her who you are and she will do what she can with it. Love, Vicki Woodyard http://www.bobwoodyard.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 , "skiplaurel" <vicki@b...> wrote: > Dear Bobby, > > I resonated with your writing about your dentist, for I, too, lost a beloved > daughter many years ago. My brother said that it was as if my soul were > bruised and I put up a steel wall with iron spikes to keep people out. I wanted > to say that I didn't put it up--it came with the territory. However, there it > was and there I was....what to do? > > I completely understand where your dentist is coming from. No one will be > able to honor her grief, however. That is also part of the territory. The > isolation must be lived with and then dismantled brick by brick, stone by > stone--but only when she is ready. > > I find that losing a child is a life lesson and I am not sure what we who have > lost children are learning. I tend to protect myself and therefore others from > feeling the inner devastation. It causes compassion as well as self-pity. It is > as if I am saying silently to people--careful, don't come too close- -don't want > you to fall into the abyss. With that warning is love as well as fear. Who is > to say what is going on here? > > Just send her who you are and she will do what she can with it. > > Love, Vicki Woodyard > http://www.bobwoodyard.com That is excellent advice Vicky, which I very much needed. Thank you. Love, Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 on 4/13/03 7:51 AM, skiplaurel at vicki wrote: > Dear Bobby, > > I resonated with your writing about your dentist, for I, too, lost a beloved > daughter many years ago. My brother said that it was as if my soul were > bruised and I put up a steel wall with iron spikes to keep people out. I > wanted > to say that I didn't put it up--it came with the territory. However, there it > was and there I was....what to do? > > I completely understand where your dentist is coming from. No one will be > able to honor her grief, however. That is also part of the territory. The > isolation must be lived with and then dismantled brick by brick, stone by > stone--but only when she is ready. > > I find that losing a child is a life lesson and I am not sure what we who have > lost children are learning. I tend to protect myself and therefore others > from > feeling the inner devastation. It causes compassion as well as self-pity. It > is > as if I am saying silently to people--careful, don't come too close--don't > want > you to fall into the abyss. With that warning is love as well as fear. Who > is > to say what is going on here? > > Just send her who you are and she will do what she can with it. > > Love, Vicki Woodyard > http://www.bobwoodyard.com I feel for you, and count myself lucky that I have not lost a child yet. But I know I will, even if it only when I die... It is said that losing a child is the hardest of all things to bear. The things to learn from this are many and profound in porportion to the loss. We are not just our bodies. We are not in control. Life *isn't* particular and morally just as we would like it to be, *everything dies* ...Everything we can love will change, die, or otherwise dissappear. The whole thing is a goad to understanding. What is this? Who are we? )))))))Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 4/13/03 7:51 AM, skiplaurel at vicki@b... wrote: > > > Dear Bobby, > > > > I resonated with your writing about your dentist, for I, too, lost a beloved > > daughter many years ago. My brother said that it was as if my soul were > > bruised and I put up a steel wall with iron spikes to keep people out. I > > wanted > > to say that I didn't put it up--it came with the territory. However, there it > > was and there I was....what to do? > > > > I completely understand where your dentist is coming from. No one will be > > able to honor her grief, however. That is also part of the territory. The > > isolation must be lived with and then dismantled brick by brick, stone by > > stone--but only when she is ready. > > > > I find that losing a child is a life lesson and I am not sure what we who have > > lost children are learning. I tend to protect myself and therefore others > > from > > feeling the inner devastation. It causes compassion as well as self-pity. It > > is > > as if I am saying silently to people--careful, don't come too close--don't > > want > > you to fall into the abyss. With that warning is love as well as fear. Who > > is > > to say what is going on here? > > > > Just send her who you are and she will do what she can with it. > > > > Love, Vicki Woodyard > > http://www.bobwoodyard.com > > > > I feel for you, and count myself lucky that I have not lost a child yet. But > I know I will, even if it only when I die... > It is said that losing a child is the hardest of all things to bear. The > things to learn from this are many and profound in porportion to the loss. > We are not just our bodies. We are not in control. Life *isn't* particular > and morally just as we would like it to be, *everything dies* ...Everything > we can love will change, die, or otherwise dissappear. The whole thing is a > goad to understanding. What is this? Who are we? The answer that I have found is being...just being with what is. Often I am not able to access this being, due to the clouds within consciousness. But I am not the clouds. The work is to never give up on waking up. Success is guaranteed. God keeps His promises. > > > )))))))Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 , "skiplaurel" <vicki@b...> Namaste All, I lost a child when I was about 27 years old, a drinking, meat eating, materialist etc and not so spiritual at all. The only thing that I could think of her at the time, was that if she could do that so easily, die that is, then so could I. I was angry at the medical profession and everyone else, took years to get over. My wife died only about two years after this event so my situation was compounded. Of course in most of the world this is a daily occurrence. However it wasn't until 12 years later, when I got into Vedanta that I could put it all into perspective, karmically. I consoled myself with the knowledge that a child dies many times because that is the karmic life run at the time. More important, that there is no death only our attachment to the person. It is a wake up call that's what it is!!!! It is the rising and falling of phenomena, and one should develop one pointed concentration on getting above it all. Time Heals..Indulging grief etc doesn't...ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 , "saktidasa" <saktidasa> wrote: > , "skiplaurel" <vicki@b...> > > Namaste All, > > I lost a child when I was about 27 years old, a drinking, meat > eating, materialist etc and not so spiritual at all. > > The only thing that I could think of her at the time, was that if she > could do that so easily, die that is, then so could I. > > I was angry at the medical profession and everyone else, took years > to get over. My wife died only about two years after this event so my > situation was compounded. Of course in most of the world this is a > daily occurrence. > > However it wasn't until 12 years later, when I got into Vedanta that > I could put it all into perspective, karmically. I consoled myself > with the knowledge that a child dies many times because that is the > karmic life run at the time. More important, that there is no death > only our attachment to the person. It is a wake up call that's what > it is!!!! > > It is the rising and falling of phenomena, and one should develop one > pointed concentration on getting above it all. Time Heals..Indulging > grief etc doesn't...ONS...Tony. Hi, Tony, I am quite famiiar at being angry with the medical profession when a loved one dies. We went through that, too--and with good reason. In short, the bottom drops out of your world and it is up to you to put it back together as best you can. Sounds like you are benefitting from the challenge. To see oneself as being is the only thing that heals and that is sometimes uphill all the way. Love, Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 , "skiplaurel" <vicki@b...> wrote: > , "saktidasa" <saktidasa> wrote: > > , "skiplaurel" <vicki@b...> > > > > Namaste All, > > > > I lost a child when I was about 27 years old, a drinking, meat > > eating, materialist etc and not so spiritual at all. > > > > The only thing that I could think of her at the time, was that if she > > could do that so easily, die that is, then so could I. > > > > I was angry at the medical profession and everyone else, took years > > to get over. My wife died only about two years after this event so my > > situation was compounded. Of course in most of the world this is a > > daily occurrence. > > > > However it wasn't until 12 years later, when I got into Vedanta that > > I could put it all into perspective, karmically. I consoled myself > > with the knowledge that a child dies many times because that is the > > karmic life run at the time. More important, that there is no death > > only our attachment to the person. It is a wake up call that's what > > it is!!!! > > > > It is the rising and falling of phenomena, and one should develop one > > pointed concentration on getting above it all. Time Heals..Indulging > > grief etc doesn't...ONS...Tony. > > Hi, Tony, I am quite famiiar at being angry with the medical profession when a > loved one dies. We went through that, too--and with good reason. In short, the > bottom drops out of your world and it is up to you to put it back together as > best you can. Sounds like you are benefitting from the challenge. To see > oneself as being is the only thing that heals and that is sometimes uphill all > the way. Love, Vicki Namaste Vicki, Yes..I did get married again and had more children and ended up with a 'not so blended' family. Anyway the wounds do heal but as long as one has a body and a mind there will always be the trace of a scar there. A samskara from the trauma I suppose. In the end result we can cure nothing only rise above it all..........ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 > It is the rising and falling of phenomena, and one should develop one > pointed concentration on getting above it all. Time Heals..Indulging > grief etc doesn't...ONS...Tony.I am quite famiiar at being angry with the medical profession when a loved one dies. We went through that, too--and with good reason. In short, the bottom drops out of your world and it is up to you to put it back together as best you can. Sounds like you are benefitting from the challenge. To see oneself as being is the only thing that heals and that is sometimes uphill all the way. ******************************************* My heartfelt sympathies to everybody who have lost a close family person. But our sympathies should end sometime and we should question the very God who has brought us into this situation. This will produce the burning desire ( vairagya ) which is required to reach the truth. In the kathopanishad, Nachiketas, a young boy questions Yama, the Lord of Death about the mystery of this life. Because who else to question but death itself ? In the Mahabaratha, Yudhishtra says that the greatest wonder on this earth is the fact that though everybody sees death everywhere around them, they never think that they themselves can be dead one day. Sri Ramana Maharishi explains this by saying that the underlying truth causes this. The truth that the Atman is indestructibe and everlasting causes the person to think he will exist forever. Om Tat Sat G.Venkat Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 , Guru Venkat <v_vedanti> wrote: > Hi All, > It is the rising and falling of phenomena, and one should develop one > > pointed concentration on getting above it all. Time Heals..Indulging > > grief etc doesn't...ONS...Tony. > > I am quite famiiar at being angry with the medical profession when a > loved one dies. We went through that, too--and with good reason. In short, the > bottom drops out of your world and it is up to you to put it back together as > best you can. Sounds like you are benefitting from the challenge. To see > oneself as being is the only thing that heals and that is sometimes uphill all > the way. ******************************************* > My heartfelt sympathies to everybody who have lost a close family person. > > But our sympathies should end sometime and we should question the very God who has brought us into this situation. This will produce the burning desire ( vairagya ) which is required to reach the truth. Namaste Guru Venkat, Yes that is what happened to me eventually, I was precipitated into spiritual enquiry, ending up with 'Who am I?'. Death is just a transition to a different state/dimension/Bardo within illusion. However I do not believe that there is a 'God' who brought us into this. The closest thing to a 'functioning God' would be a Jivanmukti taking actions. Brahman is beyond it all. It is all karmic reactions within the dream of creation. One day we will wake up and realise nothing ever did happen....ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 > > But our sympathies should end sometime and we should question the very God who has brought us into this situation. This will produce the burning desire ( vairagya ) which is required to reach the truth. Hi Venkat: Vairagya usually means dispassion. Is this dispassion toward attachment to life's presentation a burning desire or is it something else? > In the kathopanishad, Nachiketas, a young boy questions Yama, the Lord of Death about the mystery of this life. Because who else to question but death itself ? > > In the Mahabaratha, Yudhishtra says that the greatest wonder on this earth is the fact that though everybody sees death everywhere around them, they never think that they themselves can be dead one day. Sri Ramana Maharishi explains this by saying that the underlying truth causes this. The truth that the Atman is indestructibe and everlasting causes the person to think he will exist forever. This is great and it is one I have not seen. Thanks. It is good to have you here. Love Bobby G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Guru Venkat wrote: In the Mahabaratha, Yudhishtra says that the greatest wonder on this earth is the fact that though everybody sees death everywhere around them, they never think that they themselves can be dead one day. Sri Ramana Maharishi explains this by saying that the underlying truth causes this. The truth that the Atman is indestructible and everlasting causes the person to think he will exist forever. Om Tat Sat G.Venkat Thanks G. Venkat for pointing that out. Sri Ramana always cuts to the heart of the matter. Similarly, the underlying nature of the Self is freedom. So even though our body is meant to undergo certain experiences, and our range of movement is constrained by our personality, ability, and circumstances, we still desire freedom and somehow sense that freedom is an innate substance of our existence. Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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