Guest guest Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 zen2wrk (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: >From Advaitin. Passing it on to HS. "Now an interesting question is how a mere unrealized seeker such as myself can know for sure whom to have faith in. How can I really know?" Om! Benjamin ********** "By intensive background investigation..." replied Zenbob Sri Zenbobji, Can you elaborate for the benefit of the seekers and share the wisdom? Love, Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Take some time to look into their background and history. Have they been ethical and dedicated to the truth? Are they self serving or do they demand total loyalty from their followers? Is there any history of abuse to their followers or patrons? Sure, these are at times subjective and vague, but often such gentle research can turn up some disturbing things that will prevent the good hearted seeker from walking into a Lion's Den. There is that mixed history of "Sages from the East" some authentic and sincere, some well meaning and perhaps confused and then a few that were good natured but in it for the fame or fortune--and finally those who simply had serious issues themselves and patterns of destructive abuse. I am not suggesting that a Guru or Sage must be "perfect" as that is plain silly...but he/she should be ethical, kind, a good teacher, not just a strict master, and should enlighten rather than frighten. Come to think of it, I think you, Harsha, are one of the kindest and most genuine teachers...and a bit of a witty teacher, too...a good balance I think for these hectic and confused times. Love, Peace, Namaste, Zenbob Attachment: (image/jpeg) Parchment.jpg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Dearest Zenbobji, I love your down to earth realism and massive wisdom! Zenbobji, you posted something wonderfully funny about Gurus some years ago which I remember vividly. So did Jerrysan Rinpoche! That was a lot of fun. Those posts are worth a treasure in good laughs. I still smile thinking of them! :-). We will have to find them and repost them. Jerrysan Rinpoche's wonderfully humorous defense of the "pretend" scandal he was involved in was a classic piece of funny writing! Lots of love Harsha zen2wrk (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: Hi Harsha: Take some time to look into their background and history. Have they been ethical and dedicated to the truth? Are they self serving or do they demand total loyalty from their followers? Is there any history of abuse to their followers or patrons? Sure, these are at times subjective and vague, but often such gentle research can turn up some disturbing things that will prevent the good hearted seeker from walking into a Lion's Den. There is that mixed history of "Sages from the East" some authentic and sincere, some well meaning and perhaps confused and then a few that were good natured but in it for the fame or fortune--and finally those who simply had serious issues themselves and patterns of destructive abuse. I am not suggesting that a Guru or Sage must be "perfect" as that is plain silly...but he/she should be ethical, kind, a good teacher, not just a strict master, and should enlighten rather than frighten. Come to think of it, I think you, Harsha, are one of the kindest and most genuine teachers...and a bit of a witty teacher, too...a good balance I think for these hectic and confused times. Love, Peace, Namaste, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 One surefire way to detect a useless Guru is to notice whether they are teaching you how great they are! and teaching how nothing the student is! Another is that they teach that they have the only way to "truth", "enlightenment", whatever. Another is that they teach that their teaching will make you rich, famous, have better loving-relationships, etc. Another is that they teach instant results for which one doesn't have to work; they offer a "magic bullet" and "instant enlightenment" -- and keep one coming back again and again because it hasn't taken yet while they are "taking" the seeker. Exorbitant fees are another good indicator. Like giving the seeker a "special mantra" which requires a donation of $1000. (The teacher deserves support, of course, but a scam is a scam. BTW contact me and I will give you a "secret mantra" for $1000. I'll be happy to do that anytime. Cash only please, US dollars, small bills. It may not do anything for the user, but it will be secret - at least till I share it. :-D) A good example of a useful teacher is Byron Katie. Her teaching is based on Four Questions. She gives them out freely. And she teaches workshops for which she charges reasonable prices, including food and boarding usually. The workshops give one a mentored practice with the questions - and she points out that the student really doesn't need her! Another good example is the Guru who teaches the Four Mahavakyas which essentially says that TAT TVAM ASI, You are That. The rest indicate that Brahman is all, all is Brahman, and the Self and Brahman are not different. A teacher sincerely based in these fundamental ideas will guide the student to their own resolution; and teacher and student are not different! A good example is one who is charging a small fee for their time and presence; a bad example is one who is charging a larger fee for their "special knowledge" which is occultly hidden because it is too dangerous -- and they have the only pathway to it. The truth (or Truth if you prefer) is out in the open everywhere present, and the transient actually points to its source. Follow where it came from and THAT will finally be revealed. Actually it is pretty much common sense. Namaste, John L. , Harsha wrote: > zen2wrk@a... wrote: > > >> >From Advaitin. Passing it on to HS. > >> > >> "Now an interesting question is how a mere unrealized seeker such as > >> myself can know for sure whom to have faith in. How can I really > >> know?" > >> > >> Om! > >> Benjamin > >> ********** > >> > > > > "By intensive background investigation..." > > replied Zenbob > > Sri Zenbobji, > > Can you elaborate for the benefit of the seekers and share the wisdom? > > Love, > Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Absolutely! These are the symptoms of false gurus. As I mention, in respect to the origianl question, there are of course, very well intended, sincere, but either misguided or "unwise" gurus and practitioneers roaming about with no desire to rip off or cause harm, but nonetheless are "less worthy" to devout a lot of time to. These folks are more difficult to separate from the herd because, in fact, they are the herd. Really good gurus are actually very uncommon, and not available on every street corner, and in fact, are rather reluctant to even accept the title or act the part. They know, as you so clearly pointed out, that taking on the "mantle of superior knowledge" is the first step toward becoming a fool. By the way, my fee for imparting Occult, Arcane and Superior knowledge is only $750, (cash, gold or cashier's checks only) so, folks, while the special offer lasts, act now and save $250 from the going rate! Namaste Zenbob Attachment: (image/jpeg) Parchment.jpg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 If you and John want to make it to the Big Leagues, you're going to have to start accepting credit cards too ;-) In Humor and Love, David , zen2wrk@a... wrote: > > By the way, my fee for imparting Occult, Arcane and Superior knowledge is > only $750, (cash, gold or cashier's checks only) so, folks, while the special > offer lasts, act now and save $250 from the going rate! > > Namaste > > Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 , Harsha wrote: > zen2wrk@a... wrote: > > >> >From Advaitin. Passing it on to HS. > >> > >> "Now an interesting question is how a mere unrealized seeker such as > >> myself can know for sure whom to have faith in. How can I really > >> know?" > >> > >> Om! > >> Benjamin > >> ********** Namaste, If they have even one desire then they are probably not a Jivanmukta. If they are not a Jivanmukta then leave them out.......ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 If they have even one desire then they are probably not a Jivanmukta. If they are not a Jivanmukta then leave them out.......ONS..Tony. Oh piffle and hogwash Tony! Do you still seek aninhuman master? Of course they will have desire...if they breathe. There are no perfect masters...there are no perfect people. This is exactly the mind-trap that John Loganis was warning about!!! As long as you keep seeking perfection you will never achieve happiness...and without achieving happiness there can be no perfection. It is an effortless state of being. Let those who may share their wisdom share it...do not subject them to a senseless and mindless test of perfection. Desire? yep, we all gottem desire! Me, I desire some sense in the world... And kindness in the hearts of my fellow people. Namaste, Zenbob Attachment: (image/jpeg) Parchment.jpg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Dang ding dangle... You are soooo right! But I am not taking Dicover Card, the Card that Pays you every time you use it! Namaste, Zenbob Attachment: (image/jpeg) Parchment.jpg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 , zen2wrk@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/2003 11:15:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > aoclery writes: > > > If they have even one desire then they are probably not a Jivanmukta. > > If they are not a Jivanmukta then leave them out.......ONS..Tony. > > > > Oh piffle and hogwash Tony! Do you still seek aninhuman master? Of course > they will have desire...if they breathe. There are no perfect masters...there > are no perfect people. This is exactly the mind-trap that John Loganis was > warning about!!! Wise words o'Zenbob. ('specially the piffle and hogwash.) Only a true Jivanmukta could say that with such zest! :-) So happy to see you posting again. Harsha, I'm doing good, staying busy... thanks for asking. Hope you and yours are having a great summer. BG, thanks for your always kind words earlier this week! Hugs, xxxtg As long as you keep seeking perfection you will never achieve > happiness...and without achieving happiness there can be no perfection. It is > an effortless state of being. Let those who may share their wisdom share > it...do not subject them to a senseless and mindless test of perfection. > > Desire? yep, we all gottem desire! > > Me, I desire some sense in the world... > And kindness in the hearts of my fellow people. > > Namaste, > > Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 , "teegee555" <Teegee555@a...> wrote: > , zen2wrk@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 7/18/2003 11:15:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > aoclery writes: > > > > > If they have even one desire then they are probably not a > Jivanmukta. > > > If they are not a Jivanmukta then leave them out.......ONS..Tony. > > > > > > > Oh piffle and hogwash Tony! Do you still seek aninhuman master? > Of course > > they will have desire...if they breathe. There are no perfect > masters...there > > are no perfect people. This is exactly the mind-trap that John > Loganis was > > warning about!!! Namaste, No mind trap just simple logic. In fact the opposite of a mind trap. ;Guru is God;, therefore a human Guru can only be a manifestation of the Sakti, or a Jivanmukta. Anything else would be not a Guru but just a teacher, with failings and errors. I'm surprised at the level of your ignorance that you think because they breath they must have desire. Ahhh!! I think you are just pulling my chain for a joke right? Everything is perfect actually from a different standpoint. There are Jivanmuktas who were perfect masters, as Ramana Maharshi.....I do appreciate your rather wry sense of humour though hahahahahahaha......ONS....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 , zen2wrk@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/2003 11:15:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > aoclery writes: > > > If they have even one desire then they are probably not a Jivanmukta. > > If they are not a Jivanmukta then leave them out.......ONS..Tony. > > > > Oh piffle and hogwash Tony! Do you still seek aninhuman master? Of course > they will have desire...if they breathe. There are no perfect masters...there > are no perfect people. This is exactly the mind-trap that John Loganis was > warning about!!! As long as you keep seeking perfection you will never achieve > happiness...and without achieving happiness there can be no perfection. It is > an effortless state of being. Let those who may share their wisdom share > it...do not subject them to a senseless and mindless test of perfection. > > Desire? yep, we all gottem desire! > > Me, I desire some sense in the world... > And kindness in the hearts of my fellow people. > > Namaste, > > Zenbob Hey Zenbob Namaste, I see you are still the same. A good sense of humour, pulling my chain again hahahahaha. As I often said on here and elsewhere everything has to do with Ahimsa and the awareness sheath. A Guru is a manifestation of the Sakti so therefore has to be a Jivanmukta otherwise they are just a teacher. If one would follow Ahimsa to one's best, not eating flesh etc etc, treating animals the same as humans etc etc. One's level of awareness rises and the Inner Guru becomes the teacher. Gautama was probably a Jivanmukta so was Ramana, these are Sadgurus or true Gurus, others are just fallible teachers......ONS........Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 , "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote: > , "teegee555" <Teegee555@a...> > wrote: > > , zen2wrk@a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/18/2003 11:15:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > > aoclery writes: > > > > > > > If they have even one desire then they are probably not a > > Jivanmukta. > > > > If they are not a Jivanmukta then leave them > out.......ONS..Tony. > > > > > > > > > > Oh piffle and hogwash Tony! Do you still seek aninhuman master? > > Of course > > > they will have desire...if they breathe. There are no perfect > > masters...there > > > are no perfect people. This is exactly the mind-trap that John > > Loganis was > > > warning about!!! > > Namaste, > > No mind trap just simple logic. In fact the opposite of a mind > trap. ;Guru is God;, therefore a human Guru can only be a > manifestation of the Sakti, or a Jivanmukta. Anything else would be > not a Guru but just a teacher, with failings and errors. > > I'm surprised at the level of your ignorance that you think because > they breath they must have desire. Ahhh!! I think you are just > pulling my chain for a joke right? Everything is perfect actually > from a different standpoint. There are Jivanmuktas who were perfect > masters, as Ramana Maharshi.....I do appreciate your rather wry sense > of humour though hahahahahahaha......ONS....Tony. Tony, Understand that the "jivanmuktas" need not follow your rules. )))))))))Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 > > > Tony, > Understand that the "jivanmuktas" need not follow your rules. > > )))))))))Shawn Namaste Shawn, Only one Jivanmukta can really tell another one. However in a Jivanmukta or Sadguru there is nobody to have or receive the desires or attachments. I don't think I am out of line with the best Hindu Sages who say only a Jivanmukta can be a real Guru, on the external. I have no opinion other than it is my feeling that desire requires an ego mind..........ONS.....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 , "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote: > > > > > > Tony, > > Understand that the "jivanmuktas" need not follow your rules. > > > > )))))))))Shawn > > Namaste Shawn, > > Only one Jivanmukta can really tell another one. However in a > Jivanmukta or Sadguru there is nobody to have or receive the desires > or attachments. I don't think I am out of line with the best Hindu > Sages who say only a Jivanmukta can be a real Guru, on the external. > I have no opinion other than it is my feeling that desire requires an > ego mind..........ONS.....Tony. Your right of course, Tonyji, but....and I throw this out as friendly chatter only, by no means make it a part of your belief system ;-): Desire belongs to the body-mind and the momentum of karma may still move the bodymind in certain ways, not touching the Self that is fully realised. The jiva itself is an illusion, so any lingering desires or prarabdha is only witnessed in amusement and and has no binding force on the Awakened and propperly cannot be attributed to the jivamukta, although we sometimes do so mistaking the body for the Self. As for signs of gurudom, Sri Ramana remarks that one will feel great peace when in the presence of such a one. But even this is not cut and dried, since someone's mind may be in such turmoil as to not notice said peace. Although I have heard that some gurus are so violent as to force the peace upon you! ;-) may we all be so lucky, Shawn What will happen will be perfect and when ripe, you will fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 Shawn SaidDesire belongs to the body-mind and the momentum of karma may still move the bodymind in certain ways, not touching the Self that is fully realised. The jiva itself is an illusion, so any lingering desires or prarabdha is only witnessed in amusement and and has no binding force on the Awakened and propperly cannot be attributed to the jivamukta, although we sometimes do so mistaking the body for the Self.I can go along with this. It seems that there is a certain karmic momentum after enlightenment. It could be put this way "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars". So the body may have certain needs like ripples on the ocean of the enlightened one, but underneath all is still. One of the differences between my state and the enlightened one is that no matter what happens "He does not mind what arises in the ever present Now, being completely aligned to what is" Sex may happen, doesn't matter if it does or doesn't. I believe it can happen without desire. Sex seems to be seen as the ultimate of desires and yet the Tantrics claim it to bring about a genuine union with God once the desire subsides. God is the totality all of it and God is certainly pro sex. "He" chose this way of bringing virtually every thing into being in this world. Finding the right Guru? Well truth is I know nothing. It seems to me that freedom of choice must be practiced but that is the ultimate illusion. I believe that the Totality brings about your meeting with the Guru. You just can not be in the wrong place at the wrong time, you can do nothing wrong you are following your script. God is the doer. Your awakening can be dramatic like Eckart Tolles though he spent two years as a hermit some time after that. Ramana had a similar experience though more extreme. I believe I am in an awakening process, a more gentle way and that many others are at this time. If we need a Guru I feel that they should be present in the world at this time. I have a great respect for the teachings of Ramana Yoganada and others but they are not of our era. Truth is the same but we are going rapidly into uncharted waters as the human race if we are to believe the prophesies. If we were to be "led" by Ramana at this time he would be here Now. ( though He still is, where else could He go) No I believe we have the right Gurus for our time present here and Now. It could not be otherwise or it would be. God the Totality knows best. Having said that I don't know for sure and I admit that. It just feels to me that this is the time for a great step forward in the evolution of not just mankind but all that is. The Gurus of the past were no greater no lesser that the true enlightened ones of Now. ( brings us back to how do you know) Everything to its season. Even a " bad" Guru may be right for you. "Not this not this" I just do my best to stay in the present moment and live life to the full. Eckhart says "At some time you will give up and sit under the tree like the Buddha did the petals will fall on you the Devas and Angels will come and sit with you and say "We are still but you are much stiller than us teach us your stillness." No prizes for guessing who my teacher is. He has been the most effective awakener for me. With respect and love for all on this list where I have learned so much and learned to let most of it go. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 , "Shawn > > As for signs of gurudom, Sri Ramana remarks that one will feel > great peace when in the presence of such a one. But even this is > not cut and dried, since someone's mind may be in such turmoil > as to not notice said peace. Although I have heard that some > gurus are so violent as to force the peace upon you! ;-) > > may we all be so lucky, > > Shawn > > What will happen will be perfect and when ripe, you will fall. Namaste S, Yes there is no way to tell, except perhaps as Ramana describes. I remember reading a story of Sai Baba of Shirdi, the real one who died in 1918; he sometimes used to beat his devotees with a stick hahahahah. You have a point about the body going its own karmic way, that might explain Maharaj still smoking......ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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