Question of Ramana Maharishi's comments

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

the ? is at the bottom of the text.

 

Question: How are the three states of consciousness inferior in

degree of reality to the fourth (Turiya)? What is the actual relation

between these three states and the fourth?

 

Maharshi: There is only one state, that of consciousness or awareness

or existence. The three states of waking, dream and deep sleep cannot

be real. They simply come and go. The real will always exist. The "I"

or existence that alone persists in all the three states is real. The

other three are not real and so it is not possible to say they have

such and such degree of reality. We may roughly put it like this,

Existence or consciousness is the only reality. Consciousness plus

waking, we call waking. Consciousness plus sleep, we call sleep.

Consciousness plus dream, we call dream. Consciousness is the screen,

on which all the pictures come and go. The screen is real, the

pictures are mere shadows on it. Because by long habit, we have been

regarding these three states as real, we call the state of mere

awareness or consciousness the fourth. There is however, no fourth

state, but only one state.

 

There is no difference between dream and the waking state except that

the dream is short and the waking long. Both are the result of the

mind. Because the waking state is long, we imagine that it is our

real state. But, as a matter of fact, our real state is Turiya or the

fourth state which is always as it is and knows nothing of the three

states of waking, dream or deep sleep. Because we call these three

Avastha (states) we call the fourth state also Turiya Avastha. But it

is not an Avastha, but the real and natural state of the Self. When

this is realised, we know it is not a Turiya or fourth state, for a

fourth state is only relative, but Turiyatita, the transcendent state.

___________________

 

 

Now the important ? Please note the text below:

 

"But, as a matter of fact, our real state is Turiya or the fourth

state which is always as it is and knows nothing of the three states

of waking, dream or deep sleep"

 

Does this means "awareness" has no awareness of the 3 states at all?

(sleep,wake,dream)

 

Could someone throw some light on it, please.

 

cheers

tj

[Guest guest]

Hey Ted,

 

 

Here is a way to describe the situation you are asking about...

 

It is like understanding that there is only one dimension - the

fourth dimension - with the understanding that the label 'fourth

dimension' is just that - a label - because the fourth dimension is

whole, complete, and ultimately is namelless, yet we give it a name so

that we may speak about it.

 

 

That which comes from Consciousness is Consciousness - I know

that this is doublespeak yet it is true - since that which comes from

Consciousness is Consciousness - all that is, is Consciousness.

 

 

What this means in terms of your question is that that which

comes from Consciousness is of the nature of Consciousness - it is

nameless and it is fourth dimensional.

 

 

Note how Ramana Maharshi said 'we may put it like this' and

then he described things as 'Consciousnes plus'... what he described

is 'function' or how things manifest.

 

 

In the light of 'that which comes from Consciousness is of the

nature of Consciousness' (this includes what is called you and me) -

Consciousness functions, and, it is creative, so we are creative, and

functionally we give things names so that we may speak about them, yet

no thing is its name - the name may even be called an illusion, and

yet it does point to something beyond itself - that is the function of

a name.

 

 

This is also what happens with that which is called the first

three states or the other three dimensions, with the metaphor of a

movie and its screen, and with all that is perceived by the sense

doors - they are simply the creative labels, names, and instruments of

Consciousness that refer to that which cannot be labeled or named

(itself) - functionally they are elegant and serve us well - ultimate

reality is that which they point to. (this also explains why the

functioning is so elegant).

 

 

 

In this light the fourth dimension can know nothing of the

other three dimensions because these are only its functional creations

- and yet just as we can list the names and characteristics of a

person, these labels and three-dimensional mirroring (holograms)

perfectly point to ultimate reality from which they are created

 

but

 

- in the same way that you can never know about things by their

description, you cannot know ultimate reality by its description and

although ultimate reality can know the description that it creates it

also knows that ultimately the description itself has 'no substance'

- this quality of 'no substance' also reflects the nature of

Consciousness.

 

 

 

Therefore you can never know Consciousness because it is not a

substance in the conventional (three-dimensional) sense, and, because

you are it - it is what you are and you can only know it by being it -

any trying to grasp it is labeling it - or - trying to grasp it is the

creative process of moving away from what you already are.

 

 

It is Love. Any trying to capture Love is unreal and yet when one

allows oneself to be absorbed 'in' Love - there is nothing more real

and solid.

 

It is its own knowing.

 

 

Love and Gratitude,

James

 

ps - the same understanding can be seen if one looks at the whole

concept called time (past, present, future, and space-time)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, "tedshakthi7"

<tedshakthi7> wrote:

> Dear All,

> the ? is at the bottom of the text.

>

> Question: How are the three states of consciousness inferior in

> degree of reality to the fourth (Turiya)? What is the actual

relation

> between these three states and the fourth?

>

> Maharshi: There is only one state, that of consciousness or

awareness

> or existence. The three states of waking, dream and deep sleep

cannot

> be real. They simply come and go. The real will always exist. The

"I"

> or existence that alone persists in all the three states is real.

The

> other three are not real and so it is not possible to say they have

> such and such degree of reality. We may roughly put it like this,

> Existence or consciousness is the only reality. Consciousness plus

> waking, we call waking. Consciousness plus sleep, we call sleep.

> Consciousness plus dream, we call dream. Consciousness is the

screen,

> on which all the pictures come and go. The screen is real, the

> pictures are mere shadows on it. Because by long habit, we have been

> regarding these three states as real, we call the state of mere

> awareness or consciousness the fourth. There is however, no fourth

> state, but only one state.

>

> There is no difference between dream and the waking state except

that

> the dream is short and the waking long. Both are the result of the

> mind. Because the waking state is long, we imagine that it is our

> real state. But, as a matter of fact, our real state is Turiya or

the

> fourth state which is always as it is and knows nothing of the three

> states of waking, dream or deep sleep. Because we call these three

> Avastha (states) we call the fourth state also Turiya Avastha. But

it

> is not an Avastha, but the real and natural state of the Self. When

> this is realised, we know it is not a Turiya or fourth state, for a

> fourth state is only relative, but Turiyatita, the transcendent

state.

>

___________________

>

>

> Now the important ? Please note the text below:

>

> "But, as a matter of fact, our real state is Turiya or the fourth

> state which is always as it is and knows nothing of the three states

> of waking, dream or deep sleep"

>

> Does this means "awareness" has no awareness of the 3 states at all?

> (sleep,wake,dream)

>

> Could someone throw some light on it, please.

>

> cheers

> tj

[Guest guest]

, "tedshakthi7"

<tedshakthi7> wrote:

> Dear All,

> the ? is at the bottom of the text.

>

> Question: How are the three states of consciousness inferior in

> degree of reality to the fourth (Turiya)? What is the actual

relation

> between these three states and the fourth?

>

> Maharshi: There is only one state, that of consciousness or

awareness

> or existence. The three states of waking, dream and deep sleep

cannot

> be real. They simply come and go. The real will always exist.

The "I"

> or existence that alone persists in all the three states is real.

The

> other three are not real and so it is not possible to say they have

> such and such degree of reality. We may roughly put it like this,

> Existence or consciousness is the only reality. Consciousness plus

> waking, we call waking. Consciousness plus sleep, we call sleep.

> Consciousness plus dream, we call dream. Consciousness is the

screen,

> on which all the pictures come and go. The screen is real, the

> pictures are mere shadows on it. Because by long habit, we have

been

> regarding these three states as real, we call the state of mere

> awareness or consciousness the fourth. There is however, no fourth

> state, but only one state.

>

> There is no difference between dream and the waking state except

that

> the dream is short and the waking long. Both are the result of the

> mind. Because the waking state is long, we imagine that it is our

> real state. But, as a matter of fact, our real state is Turiya or

the

> fourth state which is always as it is and knows nothing of the

three

> states of waking, dream or deep sleep. Because we call these three

> Avastha (states) we call the fourth state also Turiya Avastha. But

it

> is not an Avastha, but the real and natural state of the Self. When

> this is realised, we know it is not a Turiya or fourth state, for a

> fourth state is only relative, but Turiyatita, the transcendent

state.

>

___________________

>

>

> Now the important ? Please note the text below:

>

> "But, as a matter of fact, our real state is Turiya or the fourth

> state which is always as it is and knows nothing of the three

states

> of waking, dream or deep sleep"

>

> Does this means "awareness" has no awareness of the 3 states at all?

> (sleep,wake,dream)

>

> Could someone throw some light on it, please.

>

> cheers

> tj

 

Nice question tj. It is kinda like asking 'What is Enlightenment? or

What is a Jnani? What is the fourth state?

 

The state of non-dualism. Where there is no God. No world. Just

reality. When the world arises God is present also. Without the

world there is no God.

 

A dialogue is between two entities. The mind can supply both and

frequently does. An inner dialogue postulates a speaker and a

listener. The listener is whoever the thoughts are projected at.

The speaker is the subject of the idea, where 'subject' means the the

author of the action in a sentence.

 

They are just thoughts. As thoughts they are sometimes said to be in

opposition to reality or the thoughtless state. They are formed on a

backdrop of reality or Consciousness, the screen of the movie. All

waking dreaming and deep sleep states are related by the process of

thinking or not thinking, but reality (Turiya) has nothing to do with

any of them as they are all concepts or thoughts.

 

Love

Bobby G.