Guest guest Posted September 9, 2003 Report Share Posted September 9, 2003 There is no divine intervention. Whatever you get............is due to your own self-effort. but................. Another word for self-effort is.........divine will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 , "toombaru" <toombaru> wrote: > There is no divine intervention. > > Whatever you get............is due to your own self-effort. > > but................. > > Another word for self-effort is.........divine will. Namaste, Yes I think that this has something to do with good and bad karma, it is inevitable. However I do suspect that a form of Grace could be 'Bleedthroughs', from other lives, past and present. In other words corresponding vibrations attract......but then this is all karma too.....even to the day of Moksha.......ONS....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 , "Tony OClery" <aoclery> wrote: > , "toombaru" <toombaru> > wrote: > > There is no divine intervention. > > > > Whatever you get............is due to your own self-effort. > > > > but................. > > > > Another word for self-effort is.........divine will. > > Namaste, > > > Yes I think that this has something to do with good and bad karma, it > is inevitable. However I do suspect that a form of Grace could > be 'Bleedthroughs', from other lives, past and present. In other > words corresponding vibrations attract......but then this is all > karma too.....even to the day of Moksha.......ONS....Tony. There is no karma. Karma is the personalisation of the apparent sequential effects of one's self-effort. Self-effort is another word for divine will. There is no self to accumulate karma. There is no grace. Grace would have to be given and taken. Would All-That-Is be able to give grace to itself? If you are headed for outer space.........there is no need to pack your compass...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 , "toombaru" <toombaru> wrote: > > Yes I think that this has something to do with good and bad karma, > it > > is inevitable. However I do suspect that a form of Grace could > > be 'Bleedthroughs', from other lives, past and present. In other > > words corresponding vibrations attract......but then this is all > > > > > > karma too.....even to the day of Moksha.......ONS....Tony. There is no karma. > > Karma is the personalisation of the apparent sequential effects of > one's self-effort. > > Self-effort is another word for divine will. > > There is no self to accumulate karma. > > > There is no grace. > > Grace would have to be given and taken. > > Would All-That-Is be able to give grace to itself? > If you are headed for outer space.........there is no need to pack > your compass...... Namaste, Well depends whether we are talking about apples or oranges relative or absolute.....we are both right and both wrong.....There is no Divine to have a Will, ultimately......ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 - toombaru Wednesday, September 10, 2003 10:50 PM Re: Divine Intervention , "Tony OClery" <aoclery> wrote:> , "toombaru" <toombaru> > wrote:> > There is no divine intervention.> > > > Whatever you get............is due to your own self-effort.> > > > but.................> > > > Another word for self-effort is.........divine will.> > Namaste,> > > Yes I think that this has something to do with good and bad karma, it > is inevitable. However I do suspect that a form of Grace could > be 'Bleedthroughs', from other lives, past and present. In other > words corresponding vibrations attract......but then this is all > karma too.....even to the day of Moksha.......ONS....Tony.There is no karma.Karma is the personalisation of the apparent sequential effects of one's self-effort.Self-effort is another word for divine will.There is no self to accumulate karma.There is no grace.Grace would have to be given and taken.Would All-That-Is be able to give grace to itself?If you are headed for outer space.........there is no need to pack your compass...... There is Grace. Grace is All That Is. Grace is also the force that ends delusion. Grace is what I call the Friend. The Friend is All. Divine intervention is Grace in action. Grace is Reality. Love, Ben. /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Your use of is subject to the ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release 9/3/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 , "Ben Hassine" <ben.hassine@x> wrote: > > - > toombaru > > Wednesday, September 10, 2003 10:50 PM > Re: Divine Intervention > > > , "Tony OClery" <aoclery> > wrote: > > , "toombaru" <toombaru> > > wrote: > > > There is no divine intervention. > > > > > > Whatever you get............is due to your own self-effort. > > > > > > but................. > > > > > > Another word for self-effort is.........divine will. > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Yes I think that this has something to do with good and bad karma, > it > > is inevitable. However I do suspect that a form of Grace could > > be 'Bleedthroughs', from other lives, past and present. In other > > words corresponding vibrations attract......but then this is all > > > > > > karma too.....even to the day of Moksha.......ONS....Tony. There is no karma. > > Karma is the personalisation of the apparent sequential effects of > one's self-effort. > > Self-effort is another word for divine will. > > There is no self to accumulate karma. > > > There is no grace. > > Grace would have to be given and taken. > > Would All-That-Is be able to give grace to itself? > > > > > > If you are headed for outer space.........there is no need to pack > your compass...... > Hi Ben, "Grace" is a concept.....that exists only within the realm of a cenceptual entity. To define it requires other concepts, which also need to be defined by other concepts. This process is circular and self-referential. It can never come to fruition.....because there is nothing real there. There can be great discussions about what actually woke up Sleeping Beauty.......Was it really the kiss of perhaps maybe the poison just wore off. In this scenario, what is overlooked is that Sleeping Beauty is not real. It's just a story. She wasn't really asleep. The mind creates a secondary conceptual world and then attempts to explain it using other concepts. If grace is "all that is"......it would be all-inclusive and could no be seen or talked about. Delusion cannot come to an end......that which is unreal had no beginning. Unfortunately, words are the only tools that we have to discuss this phenonmenon.....and words are concepts....... > There is Grace. Grace is All That Is. Grace is also the force that ends delusion. Grace is what I call the Friend. The Friend is All. > Divine intervention is Grace in action. > Grace is Reality. > > Love, > > Ben. > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > /join > > > > > > "Love itself is the actual form of God." > > Sri Ramana > > In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release 9/3/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 Dear Toombaru, Grace is certainly not a concept in my experience. It is a living fact. Grace emerges spontaneously when the Heart opens. No doubt about it. Of course there are uncountable ways to deny it or to explain it away. These debates lead nowhere I guess. They go on forever. That's why I stick to one thing: I AM. Abide as I AM in the Heart. All questions end there. Love, Ben. - toombaru Thursday, September 11, 2003 3:35 PM Re: Divine Intervention , "Ben Hassine" <ben.hassine@x> wrote:> > - > toombaru > To: > Wednesday, September 10, 2003 10:50 PM> Re: Divine Intervention> > > , "Tony OClery" <aoclery> > wrote:> > , "toombaru" <toombaru> > > wrote:> > > There is no divine intervention.> > > > > > Whatever you get............is due to your own self-effort.> > > > > > but.................> > > > > > Another word for self-effort is.........divine will.> > > > Namaste,> > > > > > Yes I think that this has something to do with good and bad karma, > it > > is inevitable. However I do suspect that a form of Grace could > > be 'Bleedthroughs', from other lives, past and present. In other > > words corresponding vibrations attract......but then this is all > > > > > > karma too.....even to the day of Moksha.......ONS....Tony.> > > > > > > There is no karma.> > Karma is the personalisation of the apparent sequential effects of > one's self-effort.> > Self-effort is another word for divine will.> > There is no self to accumulate karma.> > > There is no grace.> > Grace would have to be given and taken.> > Would All-That-Is be able to give grace to itself?> > > > > > If you are headed for outer space.........there is no need to pack > your compass......> Hi Ben,"Grace" is a concept.....that exists only within the realm of a cenceptual entity.To define it requires other concepts, which also need to be defined by other concepts.This process is circular and self-referential.It can never come to fruition.....because there is nothing real there.There can be great discussions about what actually woke up Sleeping Beauty.......Was it really the kiss of perhaps maybe the poison just wore off.In this scenario, what is overlooked is that Sleeping Beauty is not real.It's just a story.She wasn't really asleep.The mind creates a secondary conceptual world and then attempts to explain it using other concepts.If grace is "all that is"......it would be all-inclusive and could no be seen or talked about.Delusion cannot come to an end......that which is unreal had no beginning.Unfortunately, words are the only tools that we have to discuss this phenonmenon.....and words are concepts.......> There is Grace. Grace is All That Is. Grace is also the force that ends delusion. Grace is what I call the Friend. The Friend is All.> Divine intervention is Grace in action.> Grace is Reality.> > Love,> > Ben.> > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > /join> > > > > > "Love itself is the actual form of God."> > Sri Ramana> > In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma > > Your use of is subject to the > > > ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release 9/3/2003 /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Your use of is subject to the ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release 9/3/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 , "Ben Hassine" <ben.hassine@x> wrote: > Dear Toombaru, > > Grace is certainly not a concept in my experience. It is a living fact. Grace emerges spontaneously when the Heart opens. No doubt about it. > Of course there are uncountable ways to deny it or to explain it away. These debates lead nowhere I guess. They go on forever. > That's why I stick to one thing: I AM. Abide as I AM in the Heart. All questions end there. > > Love, > > Ben. > Ahhhhhhhhhh Ben, May Grace kiss you on the forehead...... :-) > - > toombaru > > Thursday, September 11, 2003 3:35 PM > Re: Divine Intervention > > > , "Ben Hassine" <ben.hassine@x> wrote: > > > > - > > toombaru > > > > Wednesday, September 10, 2003 10:50 PM > > Re: Divine Intervention > > > > > > , "Tony OClery" <aoclery> > > wrote: > > > , "toombaru" <toombaru> > > > wrote: > > > > There is no divine intervention. > > > > > > > > Whatever you get............is due to your own self-effort. > > > > > > > > but................. > > > > > > > > Another word for self-effort is.........divine will. > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > Yes I think that this has something to do with good and bad karma, > > it > > > is inevitable. However I do suspect that a form of Grace could > > > be 'Bleedthroughs', from other lives, past and present. In other > > > words corresponding vibrations attract......but then this is all > > > > > > > > > > > karma too.....even to the day of Moksha.......ONS....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no karma. > > > > Karma is the personalisation of the apparent sequential effects of > > one's self-effort. > > > > Self-effort is another word for divine will. > > > > There is no self to accumulate karma. > > > > > > There is no grace. > > > > Grace would have to be given and taken. > > > > Would All-That-Is be able to give grace to itself? > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are headed for outer space.........there is no need to pack > > your compass...... > > > > > Hi Ben, > > "Grace" is a concept.....that exists only within the realm of a cenceptual entity. > > To define it requires other concepts, which also need to be defined by other concepts. > > This process is circular and self-referential. > It can never come to fruition.....because there is nothing real there. > > There can be great discussions about what actually woke up Sleeping Beauty.......Was it really the kiss of perhaps maybe the poison just wore off. > > In this scenario, what is overlooked is that Sleeping Beauty is not real. > It's just a story. > She wasn't really asleep. > > The mind creates a secondary conceptual world and then attempts to explain it using other concepts. > > If grace is "all that is"......it would be all-inclusive and could no be seen or talked about. > > Delusion cannot come to an end......that which is unreal had no beginning. > > > Unfortunately, words are the only tools that we have to discuss this phenonmenon.....and words are concepts....... > > > > > > There is Grace. Grace is All That Is. Grace is also the force that ends delusion. Grace is what I call the Friend. The Friend is All. > > Divine intervention is Grace in action. > > Grace is Reality. > > > > Love, > > > > Ben. > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /join > > > > > > > > > > > > "Love itself is the actual form of God." > > > > Sri Ramana > > > > In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma > > > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release 9/3/2003 > > > Sponsor > > > > > /join > > > > > > "Love itself is the actual form of God." > > Sri Ramana > > In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release 9/3/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 Argue for the parts and the whole smiles resplendent in completion. Argue for the whole and the parts join in joyous celebration. Argue for the sake of arguing, and the heavens weep, that the heart's loving gift has been tendered to the flames of conflict. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 Amen - Mace Mealer Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:44 PM Re: Re: Divine Intervention Argue for the parts and the whole smiles resplendent in completion. Argue for the whole and the parts join in joyous celebration. Argue for the sake of arguing, and the heavens weep, that the heart's loving gift has been tendered to the flames of conflict../join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 , "toombaru" <> > > There is Grace. Grace is All That Is. Grace is also the force that ends delusion. Grace is what I call the Friend. The Friend is All. > > Divine intervention is Grace in action. > > Grace is Reality. > > > > Love, > > > > Ben. Namaste, Ultimately there is no Grace, no 'God', no friend, no action, no creation, but Nirguna Brahman........ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 Hi Harsha and All -- I'm de-lurking to post a notification about a book in which I wrote a chapter called "A Psychology of No-thingness." Pardon my flagrant advertising, but I think it's a worthwhile book on a subject that some of you will find interesting, hopefully. It includes chapters by Adyashanti also the editors: Peter Fenner, Sheila Krystal, and John Prendergast, as well as many others. Here is the name of the book, and related information: "The Sacred Mirror: Nondual Wisdom & Psychotherapy" Omega Books/Paragon House New York, N.Y. John J. Prendergast (Editor), Peter Fenner (Editor), Sheila Krystal(Editors) List Price: $19.95 Amazon Price: $13.97 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. See details. You Save: $5.98 (30%) Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours Edition: Paperback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 Thanks Dan and congratulations! Love, Harsha dan330033 wrote: Hi Harsha and All -- I'm de-lurking to post a notification about a book in which I wrote a chapter called "A Psychology of No-thingness." Pardon my flagrant advertising, but I think it's a worthwhile book on a subject that some of you will find interesting, hopefully. It includes chapters by Adyashanti also the editors: Peter Fenner, Sheila Krystal, and John Prendergast, as well as many others. Here is the name of the book, and related information: "The Sacred Mirror: Nondual Wisdom & Psychotherapy" Omega Books/Paragon House New York, N.Y. John J. Prendergast (Editor), Peter Fenner (Editor), Sheila Krystal(Editors) List Price: $19.95 Amazon Price: $13.97 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. See details. You Save: $5.98 (30%) Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours Edition: Paperback /join "Love itself is the actual form of God." Sri Ramana In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 > > > > There is no divine intervention. > > > > > > > > Whatever you get............is due to your own self-effort. > > > > > > > > but................. > > > > > > > > Another word for self-effort is.........divine will. > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > > Yes I think that this has something to do with good and bad karma, > > it > > > is inevitable. However I do suspect that a form of Grace could > > > be 'Bleedthroughs', from other lives, past and present. In other > > > words corresponding vibrations attract......but then this is all > > > > > > > > > > > karma too.....even to the day of Moksha.......ONS....Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no karma. > > > > Karma is the personalisation of the apparent sequential > > effects of > > one's self-effort. > > > > Self-effort is another word for divine will. > > > > There is no self to accumulate karma. > > I always thought that 'karma' is a guilt felt and stored in the subconscious > > > > There is no grace. > > > > Grace would have to be given and taken. > > I am not sure about this though, since I experinced grace at the time of my second birth when I gained a whole new understanding Karta > > Would All-That-Is be able to give grace to itself? > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are headed for outer space.........there is no need to pack > > your compass...... > > > > > Hi Ben, > > "Grace" is a concept.....that exists only within the realm of a cenceptual entity. > > To define it requires other concepts, which also need to be defined by other concepts. > > This process is circular and self-referential. > It can never come to fruition.....because there is nothing real there. > > There can be great discussions about what actually woke up Sleeping Beauty.......Was it really the kiss of perhaps maybe the poison just wore off. > > In this scenario, what is overlooked is that Sleeping Beauty is not real. > It's just a story. > She wasn't really asleep. > > The mind creates a secondary conceptual world and then attempts to explain it using other concepts. > > If grace is "all that is"......it would be all-inclusive and could no be seen or talked about. > > Delusion cannot come to an end......that which is unreal had no beginning. > > > Unfortunately, words are the only tools that we have to discuss this phenonmenon.....and words are concepts....... > > > > > > There is Grace. Grace is All That Is. Grace is also the force that ends delusion. Grace is what I call the Friend. The Friend is All. > > Divine intervention is Grace in action. > > Grace is Reality. > > > > Love, > > > > Ben. > > > > > > "Love itself is the actual form of God." > > > > Sri Ramana > > > > In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 , "satkartar5" <mi_nok> > > > > > > > > > "Love itself is the actual form of God." > > > > > > Sri Ramana > > > > > > In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Namaste, Yes that is true for Saguna Brahman, which is ultimately unreal, but not for Nirguna which has no energy....and is beyond all manifestation.......ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 > I always thought that 'karma' is a guilt felt and stored in the > subconscious > It has been said that trying to think your way out of this is like trying to wash blood off with blood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 , Harsha wrote: > Thanks Dan and congratulations! > > Love, > Harsha Thanks, Harsha. And, as I said on Nisargadatta list -- congratulations on how well your e-zine came out. I liked the pictures a lot too -- apparently more than our friend Pete did :-) Love, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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