The Wisdom of Master Zenbob

[Guest guest]

It takes a truly liberated person to realize and know that they are

trapped

by their own ideas.

 

Zenbob

[Guest guest]

, Harsha wrote:

>

 

Namaste,

 

A truly liberated person wouldn't 'know'

anything...........ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

Tony OClery wrote:

, Harsha wrote:

>

Namaste,

A truly liberated person wouldn't 'know'

anything...........ONS..Tony.

How do you know that Tonyji? :-).

Love,

Harsha

[Guest guest]

, Harsha wrote:

>

 

Namaste Harsha,

 

I'm not liberated or I don't realise that I am, and I already don't

know much hahahah...With more progress I will eventually not have an

I to know...........ONS....Tony

[Guest guest]

Tony OClery wrote:

, Harsha wrote:

>

Namaste Harsha,

I'm not liberated or I don't realise that I am, and I already don't

know much hahahah...With more progress I will eventually not have an

I to know...........ONS....Namaste Sri

Tonyji,

You stated that, "I will eventually not have an I to know".

Can you please elaborate?

Love,

Harsha

--

signature

 

[Guest guest]

hello, i would like someones thoughts on what i've posted

below...anyone care to tell me which one is correct?

 

1. i was just reading on an advaita list that *creation* is an

accident...

 

2. i think i heard that some non-dualists say that creation never

happended...

 

3 and meher baba says"...THE HAPPINESS OF REALIZING GOD is the reason

creation has sprung up...

 

 

 

 

 

When true love is awakened in the aspirant, it leads him to the

realization of God and opens up the unlimited field of lasting and

unfading happiness. The happiness of God-realization is the goal of

all creation. It is not possible for a person to have the slightest

idea of that inexpressible happiness without actually having the

experience of Godhood.

 

The idea that the worldly have of suffering or happiness is entirely

limited. The real happiness that comes through realizing God is worth

all the physical and mental suffering in the universe. Then all

suffering is as if it had never been.

 

Those who are not God-realized can control their minds through yoga

to such an extent that nothing makes them feel pain or suffering,

even if they are buried alive or thrown into boiling oil. But though

the advanced yogis can brave and annul any suffering, they do not

experience the happiness of realizing God.

 

When one becomes God, everything else is zero. The happiness of God-

realization, therefore, cannot suffer curtailment by anything. The

happiness of God-realization is self-sustained, eternally fresh and

unfading, boundless and indescribable. It is for this happiness that

the world has sprung into existence.

 

 

DISCOURSES, p. 398

Copyright 1987 Avatar Meher Baba Perpetual Public Charitable Trust

[Guest guest]

Zenbob humbly suggests that "Creation" is an infinite state; a steady

state of ongoing existence in a timeless fabric of eternity that

enfolds all thought...and yes...in the greater sense it is futile to

attempt to identify the "thinker" amidst the all...but each of us who

can contribute thought are part of this process...it being also

foolish to think (see how this works?) that nothing or no one is ever

thinking despite the foolishness that goes on in our local planet.

 

Hugs, Peace, Namaste,

 

Zenbob

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

The "notion" of "creation" is for persons who have not

realized that all existence is THE ONE

BEING/SELF/BRAHMAN/GOD. This SELF is uncreated. The

persons who consider creation think that existence is

separate from SELF.

 

Oftentimes, the same persons who believe in "creation"

are also desperately trying to escape it. Hinduism is

filled with "escapism" so is Vedanta. To me, it is so

silly to try to escape from the "SELF".

 

Love,

 

michael

--- devianandi <devi wrote:

> hello, i would like someones thoughts on what i've

> posted

> below...anyone care to tell me which one is correct?

>

> 1. i was just reading on an advaita list that

> *creation* is an

> accident...

>

> 2. i think i heard that some non-dualists say that

> creation never

> happended...

>

> 3 and meher baba says"...THE HAPPINESS OF REALIZING

> GOD is the reason

> creation has sprung up...

>

>

>

>

>

> When true love is awakened in the aspirant, it leads

> him to the

> realization of God and opens up the unlimited field

> of lasting and

> unfading happiness. The happiness of God-realization

> is the goal of

> all creation. It is not possible for a person to

> have the slightest

> idea of that inexpressible happiness without

> actually having the

> experience of Godhood.

>

> The idea that the worldly have of suffering or

> happiness is entirely

> limited. The real happiness that comes through

> realizing God is worth

> all the physical and mental suffering in the

> universe. Then all

> suffering is as if it had never been.

>

> Those who are not God-realized can control their

> minds through yoga

> to such an extent that nothing makes them feel pain

> or suffering,

> even if they are buried alive or thrown into boiling

> oil. But though

> the advanced yogis can brave and annul any

> suffering, they do not

> experience the happiness of realizing God.

>

> When one becomes God, everything else is zero. The

> happiness of God-

> realization, therefore, cannot suffer curtailment by

> anything. The

> happiness of God-realization is self-sustained,

> eternally fresh and

> unfading, boundless and indescribable. It is for

> this happiness that

> the world has sprung into existence.

>

>

> DISCOURSES, p. 398

> Copyright 1987 Avatar Meher Baba Perpetual Public

> Charitable Trust

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

The New with improved product search

 

[Guest guest]

, "devianandi" <devi@p...>

wrote:

> hello, i would like someones thoughts on what i've posted

> below...anyone care to tell me which one is correct?

>

> 1. i was just reading on an advaita list that *creation* is an

> accident...

>

> 2. i think i heard that some non-dualists say that creation never

> happended...

>

> 3 and meher baba says"...THE HAPPINESS OF REALIZING GOD is the

reason

> creation has sprung up...

 

Namaste,

 

It depends on the understanding of the audience when sages speak.

However Ramana says that number 2 is the ultimate

truth.....ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

, Harsha wrote:

>

 

Namaste Harsha,

 

My I doesn't exist, it is an illusion, only the true 'I' exists and

that also is an illusion. Knowledge being avidya or nescience and

requiring an ego mind...ONS..Tony

[Guest guest]

Tony OClery wrote:

, Harsha wrote:

>

Namaste Harsha,

My I doesn't exist, it is an illusion, only the true 'I' exists and

that also is an illusion. Knowledge being avidya or nescience and

requiring an ego mind...ONS..Tony.

Dear Tony,

you say, "

My I doesn't exist". What does this mean? You seem to be suggesting

that the "I" belongs to you (My I) but also say that it is an illusion.

Standing on what ground are you calling the "I" an illusion.

Is the "ground" upon which you stand and call the "I" an illusion

solid? How so?

Love,

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Greeting Tony:

 

If the mind does not exist...then what controlled the fingers that

typed the keys upon the keyboard that sent this message?

 

Or do the keyboard and keys also not exist?

 

Seriously, words are meant to convey a shared meaning. Existence is

in itself not an illusion, and even though words are but symbols for

the things they represent, words can have meaning. And if minds can

agree or disagree, then even if we are all enfoldments of a greater

reality, a greater consicousness, it certainly does not mean that it

(we) (all things) are meaningless or without existence. This may all

be a projected shadow of a more real state, but even shadows can be

seen...even the wind can move trees.

 

Also, for one who strongly believes that there is no "I" you seem to

have a strong opinion about it all. Perhaps the "I" that does not

exist, has yet to fully express itself...or else the universe has a

very quick and deep sense of humor. We may be all joined within the

same club or team (enfolded by the universal mind) but that does not

mean that I am you or that you are me...either as an abstraction or

as a literal truth. When we are all swimming fishy-like in the great

cosmic ocean again, in blissful harmony...I will sing my fishy-song

and you will sing yours--to be sure--we will harmonize then...but it

takes more than one voice or no voice to make for harmony in a

universe.

 

Namaste, Love, Hugs,

 

Zenbob

[Guest guest]

, Harsha wrote:

>

 

Namaste Harsha,

 

It is just my bad expression, that's all.

To me what I call 'I' is an illusion from outside. There is no

independent ego/I. There is it seems an interim step of dissolution

where one realises the big 'I', of the projected Saguna Brahman.

This also disappears with the dropping of the body..IMO.

Ramana says one should find out ''Who am I?' and one will find

the 'I' of the Self, but he also says on Moksha creation disappears

as never having happened........So it is the illusory Jiva that

writes this, but in fact it is the Sakti/Prana that writes.......but

writes not.........just like a barren woman's

son...........ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/15/2003 1:48:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, aoclery writes:

So deep sleep is nearer to the natural state, it only being a thought

of nothing, as opposed to no thought at all in the natural state.

Liking the waking state is fine, but if that is attachment then it is

an impediment......It is not nothingness, it is inexplicable

Nirguna,,,,,ONS...Tony.

Ah, Dear Tony,

A great deal goes on during the deepest sleep! REM sleep, physical

healing, Out-of-Body-Experiences, problem solving, and if you have

read the latest journals of science, you would be surprised to find

that more calories are burned during deep sleep than during restful

wakeful sitting listening to music or watching television (no

surprise there!). So, the natural state of deep sleep is not a state

of non-consciousness so much as a state that many of us seem to forget

upon awakening. And yet, I have taken classes and attended lectures

on Lucid Dreaming and can attest to the fact that one can train the

mind to recall and actively use the deep sleep state to solve

problems and have deep meaningful experience.

That our waking moments are not so different than our dreams is easily

understood. However, yearning for oblivion--the idea that

nothing-pure nothing is better than pure something--seems illusory.

There is no absolute zero, there is no perfect vacuum (nature abhors

it and besides, Kirby's are not made as well as once they were) and

the universe seems filled with all sorts of strange dark matter and

dust and debris from which galaxies are casually scraped into

being...so even the cosmos is hardly a vacuum...and if that is so,

why should existence or non-existence be a perfectly empty

place/experience? Would you not rather believe that something akin

to Tony goes on in infinite time/space rather than believe that the

ideal hope is to be snuffed like a candle--either by achieving a

perfect degree of meditation or by death--the more common means of

achieving universal harmony with the infinite?

I also know what you mean when you suggest that the destruction of the

"I" is a necessary step toward achieving (wait how can no "I"

achieve???) a state of Mahatsamadhi. But, this state of being...just

being...without wilffulness should not be confused with

non-existence...or non-beingness.

If you reply to this...we all know that your "I" is still there,

healthy and happy, hopefully. We certainly prefer that to be the

case.

Blessings and Halloween Pumkins to All!

Namaste, Hugs,

Zenbob

[Guest guest]

, "Tony OClery" <aoclery>

wrote:

> , Harsha wrote:

> >

>

> Namaste Harsha,

>

> It is just my bad expression, that's all.

> To me what I call 'I' is an illusion from outside. There is no

> independent ego/I. There is it seems an interim step of

dissolution

> where one realises the big 'I', of the projected Saguna Brahman.

> This also disappears with the dropping of the body..IMO.

> Ramana says one should find out ''Who am I?' and one will find

> the 'I' of the Self, but he also says on Moksha creation

disappears

> as never having happened........So it is the illusory Jiva that

> writes this, but in fact it is the Sakti/Prana that

writes.......but

> writes not.........just like a barren woman's

> son...........ONS..Tony.

 

Namaste Harsha et al,

 

However I am not saying that philosophy and sadhana are not

necessary. People will worship their own higher Self or Sakti, as a

method of sadhana, as I suppose I do, but that doesn't mean that I

don't deny the fact it is all illusion. It is all about raising the

level of awareness and purification of the Buddhi to clear away the

samkaras that are hindering one..........ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

Tony OClery wrote:

Namaste Harsha et al,

People will worship their own higher Self or Sakti, as a

method of sadhana, as I suppose I do, but that doesn't mean that I

don't deny the fact it is all illusion. .....ONS...Tony.

****************************

Namaste Sri Tonyji:

I was asking about this "I" that perceives

everything to be an illusion.

What is the status of this "I"?

Is this a solid "I"

which can be used as a basis

to make statements about Reality and Illusion?

Love,

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Dear Tony,

 

You wrote in part:

 

--- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote:

> , "Tony OClery"

> <aoclery>

> wrote:

> > , Harsha

> wrote:

> > >

> >

SNIP

> People will worship their own higher Self

> or Sakti, as a

> method of sadhana, as I suppose I do, but that

> doesn't mean that I

> don't deny the fact it is all illusion.

 

Dear Tony, What follows is a sincere and well meant

question from michael about your preceding statement:

Why is it necessary to consider everything to be an

illusion? Is it because lots of "realized" persons

have deemed it to be an illusion. Or have you

personally realized it (whatever "it" is) to be an

illusion? If you have personaly realized "it" to be

an illusion, you seem to continue to participate in

it. Could you for a moment consider that perhaps the

only illusion is persons ideas about existence?

> It is all

> about raising the

> level of awareness and purification of the Buddhi to

> clear away the

> samkaras that are hindering one..........ONS...Tony.

>

>

SNIP

Dear Tony, when I consider many of your statements in

your previous posts, I get the idea that your ultimate

goal is to be aware of "nothing". Why does

"nothingness" seem to be so appealing to you? Have

you had glimpses of "nothingness state" other than in

deep sleep? I must confess that I love a good, sound,

deep sleep; but I also like the waking state. I like

it ALL.

 

Dear Tony and ALL,

My point and my personal position is that I feel no

need to escape into some "nothingness". Much of

Hinduism and the Vedanta seems to be wrapped in major

escapist theories. My own experience (I am not

ashamed to use the word "experience") is that through

proper intent and effective method, existence seems to

change into the type of condition that ONE might find

ideal for this life. In other words the world and

existence seems to change magically for me. Is there

anything wrong with that? Is it wrong to be at peace

while ONE is still aware of STUFF?

 

Love,

 

michael

 

 

 

The New with improved product search

 

[Guest guest]

, Harsha wrote:

>

 

Namaste Harsha,

 

As I have indicated this 'I' doesn't exist anymore than the mind

does.............the work is predetermined and goes on

anyway.......ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

, Michael Bowes

<rmichaelbowes> wrote:

> Dear Tony,

>

> You wrote in part:

>

> --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote:

> > , "Tony OClery"

> > <aoclery>

> > wrote:

> > > , Harsha

> > wrote:

> it. Could you for a moment consider that perhaps the

> only illusion is persons ideas about existence?

>

> > It is all

> > about raising the

> > level of awareness and purification of the Buddhi to

> > clear away the

> > samkaras that are hindering one..........ONS...Tony.

> >

> >

> SNIP

> Dear Tony, when I consider many of your statements in

> your previous posts, I get the idea that your ultimate

> goal is to be aware of "nothing". Why does

> "nothingness" seem to be so appealing to you? Have

> you had glimpses of "nothingness state" other than in

> deep sleep? I must confess that I love a good, sound,

> deep sleep; but I also like the waking state. I like

> it ALL.

 

Namaste,

 

Even the Quantum Physicist knows that it is all an illusion. If we

wore 5millionx glasses we would only see soup or particles becoming

waves and waves becoming particles, depending on the view.

Ultimately there is only a unified field and that itself is a dream

that didn't happen.

Then there is Prakriti or prior to creation, and disturbance of the

modes or gunas, causing the rise of objectivity etc.

 

So deep sleep is nearer to the natural state, it only being a

thought of nothing, as opposed to no thought at all in the natural

state. Liking the waking state is fine, but if that is attachment

then it is an impediment......It is not nothingness, it is

inexplicable Nirguna,,,,,ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

Tony OClery wrote:

, Harsha wrote:

>

Namaste Harsha,

As I have indicated this 'I' doesn't exist anymore than the mind

does.............the work is predetermined and goes on

anyway.......ONS..Tony.

Namaste Sri Tonyji

First, when you say this "I" does not exist, which "I" are you pointing

to (that does not exist).

Second, by what power of knowing is this pointing taking place?

Is the "I" pointing to itself and declaring its unreality?

Thanks,

Love,

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Dear Tony and ALL,

 

--- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote:

> , Michael Bowes

>

>SNIP

> Even the Quantum Physicist knows that it is all an

> illusion. If we

> wore 5millionx glasses we would only see soup or

> particles becoming

> waves and waves becoming particles, depending on the

> view.

 

If things are seen in a different way at different

zoom levels, does that mean that each level is an

illusion? Or does it just mean that things are not

illusory; but are seen and interpreted in different

ways at different zoom levels?

> Ultimately there is only a unified field and that

> itself is a dream

> that didn't happen.

 

How do you know this?

> Then there is Prakriti or prior to creation, and

> disturbance of the

> modes or gunas, causing the rise of objectivity etc.

 

Why do you think/say that there was a creation? How

did the SELF create itSELF? Hasn't it always just

been?

>

SNIP

> It is not nothingness,

> it is

> inexplicable Nirguna,,,,,ONS...Tony.

>

I agree it is inexplicable.

 

Love,

 

michael

>

 

 

 

 

The New with improved product search

 

[Guest guest]

, zen2wrk@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 10/15/2003 1:48:35 PM Pacific Daylight

Time,

> aoclery writes:

> So deep sleep is nearer to the natural state, it only being a

> thought of nothing, as opposed to no thought at all in the

natural

> state. Liking the waking state is fine, but if that is attachment

> then it is an impediment......It is not nothingness, it is

> inexplicable Nirguna,,,,,ONS...Tony.

>

> Ah, Dear Tony,

>

> A great deal goes on during the deepest sleep! REM sleep,

physical healing,

> Out-of-Body-Experiences, problem solving, and if you have

read the latest

> journals of science, you would be surprised to find that more

calories are burned

> during deep sleep than during restful wakeful sitting listening

to music or

> watching television (no surprise there!). So, the natural state of

deep sleep

> is not a state of non-consciousness so much as a state that

many of us seem to

> forget upon awakening. And yet, I have taken classes and

attended lectures on

> Lucid Dreaming and can attest to the fact that one can train the

mind to

> recall and actively use the deep sleep state to solve problems

and have deep

> meaningful experience.

>

> That our waking moments are not so different than our dreams

is easily

> understood. However, yearning for oblivion--the idea that

nothing-pure nothing is

> better than pure something--seems illusory. There is no

absolute zero, there

> is no perfect vacuum (nature abhors it and besides, Kirby's

are not made as

> well as once they were) and the universe seems filled with all

sorts of strange

> dark matter and dust and debris from which galaxies are

casually scraped into

> being...so even the cosmos is hardly a vacuum...and if that is

so, why should

> existence or non-existence be a perfectly empty

place/experience? Would you

> not rather believe that something akin to Tony goes on in

infinite time/space

> rather than believe that the ideal hope is to be snuffed like a

candle--either

> by achieving a perfect degree of meditation or by death--the

more common means

> of achieving universal harmony with the infinite?

>

> I also know what you mean when you suggest that the

destruction of the "I" is

> a necessary step toward achieving (wait how can no "I"

achieve???) a state of

> Mahatsamadhi. But, this state of being...just being...without

wilffulness

> should not be confused with non-existence...or

non-beingness.

>

> If you reply to this...we all know that your "I" is still there, healthy

and

> happy, hopefully. We certainly prefer that to be the case.

> Blessings and Halloween Pumkins to All!

>

> Namaste, Hugs,

>

> Zenbob

 

 

Bobby! How are you? Were your ears burning? I love this positive

nudge. Sometimes the pendulum gets stuck on one side or the

other, hmm? I find this happens. Damn gunas.

Watching is mesmerizing and I think.."now I'm gettin'

somewhere"...then bingo, all of a sudden I'm the same ol' slob

I've always been. The ##$^^^%#@!! ego again...but I'm gentle on

myself. All I need to do is have some ice cream and gaze at

Ramana's picture for a moment. Isn't there an ego switch in here

somewhere? ( there's a twinkle in Sri Ramana's eye)

 

love,

 

Shawn

[Guest guest]

, Harsha wrote:

>

 

Namaste,

 

It is difficult to explain, the ego/I points to nothing. There is an

inner feeling that is the I Am. The ego I is an impediment in the

end it is only reinforced by intellectual speculation. It is

obviously the thief in the palace for the work continues

anyway....ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/16/2003 2:47:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, aoclery writes:

It is difficult to explain, the ego/I points to nothing. There is an

inner feeling that is the I Am. The ego I is an impediment in the end

it is only reinforced by intellectual speculation. It is obviously the

thief in the palace for the work continues anyway....ONS...Tony.

Namaste Tony:

Ah, the complex dance of the mind! I understand...but I see traps for

you everywhere if you pursue this idea. And there is the rub...

What is it that suspects that ego is the thief? What is it that

"thinks" knows about the ego? Is it not the mind? Is it not the

mind that says, with a satisfied sigh, "Ah, now I have a still

mind...a state of no-thought...ah this is bliss?" But what feels the

bliss? What makes the judgement that "this or that" is better or

worse than "that or this?" What can one do, but relax, and not

obsess on the need to "conquer the ego" but simply be of pure heart

and enjoy the nature of inward peace and harmony that can be achieved

by quiet meditation?

The one who conquers their mind has done so at the price of their

faculties. What we seek is liberation, not conquest. Liberation is

given, not "achieved." Bliss is a gift, not a reflex for subjugating

the mind. Understanding is essential to progress, and understanding

exists only through the vehicle of thought which is merely the

sawdust of our mental processes...our brain and spirit involved in

knowing where and what we are in the universe.

We cannot achieve ultimate humility without some accomplishments

first. To say "it is nothing" when nothing has been achieved is vain

and vanity. To seek to deny the mind is like seeking to deny the sky.

It will rain anyway. Find a pretty umbrella instead. Therefore, do

not seek to deny your mind, instead seek to train it and make it a

worthy instrument of divine pleasure.

Namaste,

Zenbob

[Guest guest]

Hey Shawn-babaji!

 

So great to get a message from you! Yes, we are all evolving and then

we discover we are who we are, warts and all!

 

And of course we learn much from those we trust and look upon for

wisdom...we believe that they hold the secrets...so we quote

them...but they are riding the tiger, too! That twinkle in Ramana's

eye...I suspect he understood this conundrum and was smiling because

others thought that he had answers.

 

The best minds just pose the best questions...and never try to offer the final answers.

 

When I pierce the veil of unknowing I find that once inside the hidden

universe there is nothing there but my wonderment.

 

I hope that you still find wonder and joy both within your own

existence and in the search for spiritual harmony. Sometimes I just

watch the Blue Jays in our yard and find myself in a state of joyful

harmony. It doesn't take a lot these days. When I hear about the

world of events and all the political insanity...well my blood

pressure just goes up and up and there is no peace. So, even if a

person can attain cosmic peace...it is little comfort in a world that

suffers so...and where selfishness denies children food and the barest

degree of care.

 

And sadly, I know that we are all onionskins of this state of

selfishness...we all want to help, but we are all part of the

problem...we all wish to give, but we all also wish to keep that

which is our own. And maybe the world can never have peace so long

as we are all blind to this and unwilling to let go for the sake of

harmony. But those most willing to give it away are the ones who

least need to give it away, most of the time.

 

I don't think anyone should make a million dollars a year. For any

reason. I suppose that they could "make a million" but be allowed to

keep $ 100,000 -- the rest should go to feed the poor...provide

medical care and housing, etc. That's the way I feel now. Well,

that's utopian, I know...and there is always that awful question of

"who gets to disperse the funds and regulate the dispersers" and all

the cost and corruption of that. Still, I believe that would be

better than what we have now.

 

Anyhoo, don't let my rant get you in a down-mood. Go out and walk in

a park...enjoy life while you are able to. I think I will go and feed

the Peafowl & chickens. LOL

 

Hugs,

 

Namaste,

 

Zenbob