Conscious Immortality: conversations with Ramana Maharshi

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Avastatryaya - Sri Ramana

Q. Why is there no meditation during dreaming? Is such possible?

A. Ask it in the dream. You are told to meditate now and ask who you

are. Instead of doing it you ask such question. Dream and sleep are

for the same person as waking. You are the witness of both - they

pass before you. Because you are out of meditation now, such

questions arise.

Q. What happens to the consciousness of a Realized one is sleep?

A.Such a question arises only in the minds of unrealized beholders. He

[who is realised] has but One state, which is unbroken throughout all

24 hours, whether in what you call sleeping, or in waking. As a

matter of fact the majority of people are all asleep, because they

are not awake to the Self.

In a state of deep sleep we lay down our ego (Ahankara), our thoughts

and our desires. If we could only do all this while we are conscious,

we would realize the Self.

The best form of Dhyana or Meditation is when it continues not merely

in waking but extends to dream and deep sleep states. This mediation

must be so intense as to not even allow room for the idea "I am

meditation." As waking and dreaming are fully occupied by the Dhyana

of such a person, deep sleep may be considered to be part of the

Dhyan.

Sanyas is the giving up of the ego; even though a person may be living

as a householder within a family circle, the various occurrences of

the world will not affect him if his ego is surrendered. Hence dream

experiences do not really affect us. The dreamer as he quietly lies

in his bed dreams he is in water, but his bed is not really wet. On

the other hand, a person though remaining in a Sanyasa ashrama who

still has attachment to the body, is a karmi, (man of action, not

renunciation).

Q. In the West people cannot see how sages in solitude can be helpful.

A. Never mind Europe and America. Where are they except in your mind?

If you wake up from a dream, do you try to ascertain if the persons

of your dream creation are also awake?

Q. If sleep be such a good state, why does one not like to be always in it?

A. One is always in sleep only. The present waking state is no more

that a dream. A dream can take place only in sleep. Sleep unders

these states. The appearance of a state is again a dream which is in

its turn, in another sleep. In this way, these states of dream and

sleep are endless. Similar to these states, birth and death are also

dreams in a sleep.

After sleep ego arises and there is wakefulness. Simultaneously

thoughts arise. Where from? They must spring from the conscious Self.

Apprehending this even vaguely helps in the extinction of the ego,

after which is realization of the ONE INFINITE EXISTENCE. In that

state there are no individuals other than the Eternal Existence.

Abide in the ever inherent Self and be free from the idea of birth or

fear of death.

Q. We do not know we are dreaming, whereas in waking we do?

A. The dream is a combination of waking with deep sleep. It is due to

the samskaras of the waking state. Hence we remember dreams.

Samskaras are not formed contrawise [in deep sleep]; hence we are not

aware of the dream world simultaneously. Still , every one recollects

strange perplexities in a dream, when one wonders if he is awake or

dreaming. When really awake, he finds all was only a dream.

Q. How to remove this ignorance?

A. You dream of finding yourself in another town. Can another town

enter your room? Could you have left and gone there. Both are

impossible. Both are unreal. They appear real to the mind. The 'I' of

the dream has vanished. But the substratum of the mind continues all

along. Find that and you will be happy.

Q. I consider sleep a worse state than waking.

A. If it were so, why do all desire sleep?

There are different methods of approach to prove the unreality of the

universe. The example of the dream is one among them. Jagrat, Swapna,

and Sushupti are all treated elaborately in the scriptures in order

that the reality underlying them might be revealed. It is not meant

to accentuate differences among the three states. Their purpose must

be kept clearly in view. They say that the world is unreal. Of what

degree of unreality? Is it like that of a son of a barren mother or

flower in the sky? These are mere words without any reference to

facts, whereas the world is a fact and not a mere word.

The answer is that it is a superimposition of the One reality - like

the appearance of a snake on a coiled rope in dim light. Here too the

wrong identity ceases as soon as the friend points out that it is a

rope, whereas in the matter of the world, it persists even after I

have heard it said to be unreal. How is that?

The appearance of water in a mirage has dawned. So it is with the

world. Though knowing it to be unreal, it continues to manifest.

Maybe - but the water of a mirage is not sought to satisfy one's

thirst. As soon as one knows that it is a mirage, he gives it up as

useless and does not run after it for procuring water.

Q. It is not so with the appearance of the world. Even after it is

repeatedly declared to be false one cannot avoid satisfying his wants

from the world. How can the world be false?

A. It is like one satisfying his dream wants by dream creations. There

are objects, there are wants and there are mutual satisfactions. The

dream creations are as purposeful as the jagrat world and yet is not

considered real. Thus we see that all these illustrations serve a

purpose in establishing the stages of unreality. The realized sage

finally declares that in the regenerate state, the jagrat state is.

Each illustration should be understood in the proper context; it

should not be studied as an isolated statement. It is a link in a

chain. The purpose of all these illustrations is to direct the

seeker's mind towards the One reality underlying them all.

Q. Is the dream world not as purposeful as the waking world because we

do not feel that wants are satisfied?

A. You are not right. There are thirst and hunger in dreams also. You

might have had your fill and kept over the remaining food.

Nevertheless you feel hungry in your dream. This food does not help

you and your dream hunger can be satisfied only be eating the dream

creations.

Q. We recollect our dreams in our jagrat but not vice versa.

A. You are yourself in the dream and identify yourself as the one now speaking.

Q. But [in the dream] we do not know that we are dreaming as apart

from the waking state, as we do now?

A. The dream is the combination of jagrat with sushupti. It is due to

the samskaras of the jagrat state. Hence we remember dreams at

present. Samskarsas are not found contrariwise; therefore also we are

aware of the dream and of jagrat simultaneously. Still every one will

recollect strange perplexities in the dream. One wonders if he dreams

or is awake. He argues and determines that he is only awake. When

really awake he finds that all that was only a dream.

Q. Is there any real distinction between dream and waking?

A. Only apparent, not real. The dream is for one who says that he is

awake. Both are unreal from absolute viewpoint.

The ego arises when you wake up from sleep. In sleep you do not say

that your are sleeping; you say only when you wake up. But still you

are there. You where not concerned with the body when asleep; so can

you always remain unconcerned.

In the waking state the ego identifies itself with a physical body;

during a dream [the identification is] with the subtle mind. Then

perceptions are subtle also.

Q. Is it possible to be conscious without thought?

A. Yes. There is only one consciousness. In sleep there is no I. The

I-thought arises on waking and then the world appears. Where was this

I in sleep?> Was it there or not? It must have been there, yet not in

the way you feel now. The present is only the I-thought, whereas the

sleeping I is the real I. That subsists all through. That is

consciousness. If that is known you will see that it is beyond

thoughts. Thoughts may be like other activities, not disturbing

supreme Consciousness.

Q. I do not understand your reference to dreams and mental illusion.

A. Our experience of the world is evoked and dissolved by the mind.

When you travel from India to London does your body really move? No!

It is the conveyance which moves and your body remains inside it

without itself traveling. It is the ship and the train which travels.

Just as these movements are superimposed upon your body, so are

visions, dream states and even re-incarnations superimposed upon your

real Self. The latter does not move and is not affected by all these

outward changes, remaining still in its own place even as the body

remains still in the ship's cabin. You are always the same and hence

beyond time and beyond space. In deep sleep you have no sense of

time. The concept of time and space arises only when there is the

limitation of 'I'. Even now the 'I' thought is both limitless and

limited. So long as you think it to be the body, it is limited. At

the time of waking up and before one actually becomes fully aware of

the external world, that interval, timeless, spaceless, is the state

of the true I.

Why do not your questions arise in deep sleep? The fact is you have no

limitations in sleep, and no questions arises. Whereas now you put on

identification with the body and questions of this kind arise.

Deep sleep is always present even in the waking state. What we have to

do is to bring deep sleep into the waking state, to get "conscious

sleep." Realization can only take place in the waking state. Deep

sleep is relative to the waking state.

Can that one consciousness divide itself into two? Is the division of

the Self felt? Awaking from sleep, on finds oneself the same in a

wakeful as in a sleep state. That is the experience of everyone. The

difference lies in seeing, in the outlook. In imagining that you are

the seer separate from experience, this difference appears.

Experience says that your real is the same all through. Do you feel

the difference of external and internal during your sleep? This

difference is only with reference to the body and arises with

body-consciousness (the 'I-thought'). The so called Jagrat is itself

an illusion. Even the material sciences trace the origin of the

universe to some one primordial matter - very subtle.

God is the same both to those who say the Jagrat is real and their

opponents. Their outlooks are different. You need not enmesh yourself

in such disputations. The goal is one and the same for all. Look to

it.

The states of deep sleep, waking and dreaming are accretions on the

ego; the Self is the witness of all. The Self transcends them all.

This Witness - Consciousness - should be found. In the Self there are

not separate states, no waking, sleeping or deep sleep; It is ever

there.

Q. On inquiry into the origin of thoughts, there is a perception of

'I'. But it does not satisfy one.

A. Quite right. The perception of 'I' is associated with a form, maybe

the body. There should be nothing associated with the pure Self. The

Self is the un-associated, pure Reality in whose light, the body, the

ego etc. shine. On stilling all thoughts, only pure consciousness

remains. When just awaking from sleep and before becoming aware of

the world, there is that pure 'I' - 'I'. Hold to it without sleeping

or without allowing thoughts to possess you. If that is held firm

nothing matters even though one sees the world - the seer remains

unaffected by the phenomena.

If there were no such activities as waking thoughts and dream

thoughts, there would not be the corresponding worlds, i.e. no

perception of them. In deep sleep there are no such activities, and

the world does not then exist for us.

In dreamless sleep there is no world, no ego and no unhappiness. But

the Self remains. In the wakeful state there are all these; yet there

is the Self. One has only to remove the transitory happenings in order

to realize the ever-present beatitude of the Self. Your nature is

bliss. Find that on which all the rest are superimposed and you then

remain as the pure Self.

Q. Is there any genuine difference between dream experience and waking state?

A. Because you find the dream creations transitory in relation to the

waking state, there is said to be a difference. The difference is

only apparent and not real.

Q. Why can we not always remain in and enter deep slumber at will?

A. Deep sleep exists also in the wakeful state. We are ever in deep

sleep. That should consciously be understood and realized. There is

really no going or coming from it. Becoming aware of the deep sleep

state whilst in the world state is Samadhi. It is Nature i.e.

prarabdha which forces you to emerge from it. Your ego is not dead

and will rise again and again.

Q. Why is it that we remember dreams when awake but not the reverse?

A. You are wrong. You are yourself in a dream but identify yourself as the one now speaking!

~from 'Conscious Immortality: conversations with Ramana Maharshi' by Paul Brunton

 

 

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