On the origin Of Thought :Conscious Immortality: conversations with Ramana Ma

October 25, 2003

Dearest Mazie Lane,

Thank you so much for this beautiful Deepavali gift!!!

It is only yesterday I was discussing the concept of thought:What is it ? How does it come about?

I do not know much about Ramana Maharshi's teachings even though I

read them first by the courtesy of my brother and then through a

friend of mine Gupta with whom I used to read His teachings.

My Lord and my Master Sri Samkara Bhagavatpujyapada might have told

Him to help me out of a very difficult problem of trying to know how

languaging takes place.

I have a very serious problem in realizing the unfoldment of the

thought process.I was doing the Gayathri japam and tried to go back

to the source.It is the clue given by Sri Ramana that did the

trick:Leave the thought and get the thoughter.I did it without first

knowing this and ,and suddenly by His grace,I found out that the

awareness without the thought is the Ego as pointed out by Sri

Ramana.I tried many times though not seriously to push it further and

further to its original source.I feel that there is something beyond

it but covered by darkness and I am not yet able to pierce it or go

beyond it.

NOW,I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER THERE IS ANY ONE IN OUR GROUP WHO HAS THE

EXPERIENCE OF SEEING THE UNFOLDMENT OF THOUGHT FORM ITS SOURCE!

How is it formed?How is it transmitted?How is it comprehended?

Sri Satkarta - I do not know him - has sent some e mail on sabda

Brahman . I was reading Sri Lalitha Sahasra Namam and am aware of the

terms pasyanthi,madhyama and vaikhari.I also have the experience of

seeing the birth of a thought but I do not know how they are formed.

I am only theorizing about it.

Any one who has advanced in yoga may kindly help me to know more about

this - if they have real life experience in understanding the

formation of thoughts.

This is a very serious problem for my research and I should be

grateful to those who can throw more light on this.

I am trying to build a theory for correctional analysis by BHASHA

YOGAM - the term is mine and please excuse me for using it -

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 Mazie Lane wrote :

>Avastatryaya - Sri Ramana

>Q.

>Why is there no meditation during dreaming? Is such possible?

>A.

>Ask it in the dream. You are told to meditate now and ask who you

are. Instead of doing it you ask such question. Dream and sleep are

for the same person as waking. You are the witness of both - they

pass before you. Because you are out of meditation now, such

questions arise.

>Q.

>What happens to the consciousness of a Realized one is sleep?

>A.

>Such a question arises only in the minds of unrealized beholders. He

[who is realised] has but One state, which is unbroken throughout all

24 hours, whether in what you call sleeping, or in waking. As a matter

of fact the majority of people are all asleep, because they are not

awake to the Self.

>In a state of deep sleep we lay down our ego (Ahankara), our thoughts

and our desires. If we could only do all this while we are conscious,

we would realize the Self.

>The best form of Dhyana or Meditation is when it continues not merely

in waking but extends to dream and deep sleep states. This mediation

must be so intense as to not even allow room for the idea "I am

meditation." As waking and dreaming are fully occupied by the Dhyana

of such a person, deep sleep may be considered to be part of the

Dhyan.

>Sanyas is the giving up of the ego; even though a person may be

living as a householder within a family circle, the various

occurrences of the world will not affect him if his ego is

surrendered. Hence dream experiences do not really affect us. The

dreamer as he quietly lies in his bed dreams he is in water, but his

bed is not really wet. On the other hand, a person though remaining

in a Sanyasa ashrama who still has attachment to the body, is a

karmi, (man of action, not renunciation).

>Q.

>In the West people cannot see how sages in solitude can be helpful.

>A.

>Never mind Europe and America. Where are they except in your mind? If

you wake up from a dream, do you try to ascertain if the persons of

your dream creation are also awake?

>Q.

>If sleep be such a good state, why does one not like to be always in it?

>A.

>One is always in sleep only. The present waking state is no more that

a dream. A dream can take place only in sleep. Sleep unders these

states. The appearance of a state is again a dream which is in its

turn, in another sleep. In this way, these states of dream and sleep

are endless. Similar to these states, birth and death are also dreams

in a sleep.

>After sleep ego arises and there is wakefulness. Simultaneously

thoughts arise. Where from? They must spring from the conscious Self.

Apprehending this even vaguely helps in the extinction of the ego,

after which is realization of the ONE INFINITE EXISTENCE. In that

state there are no individuals other than the Eternal Existence.

Abide in the ever inherent Self and be free from the idea of birth or

fear of death.

>Q.

>We do not know we are dreaming, whereas in waking we do?

>A.

>The dream is a combination of waking with deep sleep. It is due to

the samskaras of the waking state. Hence we remember dreams.

Samskaras are not formed contrawise [in deep sleep]; hence we are not

aware of the dream world simultaneously. Still , every one recollects

strange perplexities in a dream, when one wonders if he is awake or

dreaming. When really awake, he finds all was only a dream.

>Q.

>How to remove this ignorance?

>A.

>You dream of finding yourself in another town. Can another town enter

your room? Could you have left and gone there. Both are impossible.

Both are unreal. They appear real to the mind. The 'I' of the dream

has vanished. But the substratum of the mind continues all along.

Find that and you will be happy.

>Q.

>I consider sleep a worse state than waking.

>A.

>If it were so, why do all desire sleep?

>There are different methods of approach to prove the unreality of the

universe. The example of the dream is one among them. Jagrat, Swapna,

and Sushupti are all treated elaborately in the scriptures in order

that the reality underlying them might be revealed. It is not meant

to accentuate differences among the three states. Their purpose must

be kept clearly in view. They say that the world is unreal. Of what

degree of unreality? Is it like that of a son of a barren mother or

flower in the sky? These are mere words without any reference to

facts, whereas the world is a fact and not a mere word.

>The answer is that it is a superimposition of the One reality - like

the appearance of a snake on a coiled rope in dim light. Here too the

wrong identity ceases as soon as the friend points out that it is a

rope, whereas in the matter of the world, it persists even after I

have heard it said to be unreal. How is that?

>The appearance of water in a mirage has dawned. So it is with the

world. Though knowing it to be unreal, it continues to manifest.

Maybe - but the water of a mirage is not sought to satisfy one's

thirst. As soon as one knows that it is a mirage, he gives it up as

useless and does not run after it for procuring water.

>Q.

>It is not so with the appearance of the world. Even after it is

repeatedly declared to be false one cannot avoid satisfying his wants

from the world. How can the world be false?

>A.

>It is like one satisfying his dream wants by dream creations. There

are objects, there are wants and there are mutual satisfactions. The

dream creations are as purposeful as the jagrat world and yet is not

considered real. Thus we see that all these illustrations serve a

purpose in establishing the stages of unreality. The realized sage

finally declares that in the regenerate state, the jagrat state is.

Each illustration should be understood in the proper context; it

should not be studied as an isolated statement. It is a link in a

chain. The purpose of all these illustrations is to direct the

seeker's mind towards the One reality underlying them all.

>Q.

>Is the dream world not as purposeful as the waking world because we

do not feel that wants are satisfied?

>A.

>You are not right. There are thirst and hunger in dreams also. You

might have had your fill and kept over the remaining food.

Nevertheless you feel hungry in your dream. This food does not help

you and your dream hunger can be satisfied only be eating the dream

creations.

>Q.

>We recollect our dreams in our jagrat but not vice versa.

>A.

>You are yourself in the dream and identify yourself as the one now speaking.

>Q.

>But [in the dream] we do not know that we are dreaming as apart from

the waking state, as we do now?

>A.

>The dream is the combination of jagrat with sushupti. It is due to

the samskaras of the jagrat state. Hence we remember dreams at

present. Samskarsas are not found contrariwise; therefore also we are

aware of the dream and of jagrat simultaneously. Still every one will

recollect strange perplexities in the dream. One wonders if he dreams

or is awake. He argues and determines that he is only awake. When

really awake he finds that all that was only a dream.

>Q.

>Is there any real distinction between dream and waking?

>A.

>Only apparent, not real. The dream is for one who says that he is

awake. Both are unreal from absolute viewpoint.

>The ego arises when you wake up from sleep. In sleep you do not say

that your are sleeping; you say only when you wake up. But still you

are there. You where not concerned with the body when asleep; so can

you always remain unconcerned.

>In the waking state the ego identifies itself with a physical body;

during a dream [the identification is] with the subtle mind. Then

perceptions are subtle also.

>Q.

>Is it possible to be conscious without thought?

>A.

>Yes. There is only one consciousness. In sleep there is no I. The

I-thought arises on waking and then the world appears. Where was this

I in sleep?> Was it there or not? It must have been there, yet not in

the way you feel now. The present is only the I-thought, whereas the

sleeping I is the real I. That subsists all through. That is

consciousness. If that is known you will see that it is beyond

thoughts. Thoughts may be like other activities, not disturbing

supreme Consciousness.

>Q.

>I do not understand your reference to dreams and mental illusion.

>A.

>Our experience of the world is evoked and dissolved by the mind. When

you travel from India to London does your body really move? No! It is

the conveyance which moves and your body remains inside it without

itself traveling. It is the ship and the train which travels. Just as

these movements are superimposed upon your body, so are visions, dream

states and even re-incarnations superimposed upon your real Self. The

latter does not move and is not affected by all these outward

changes, remaining still in its own place even as the body remains

still in the ship's cabin. You are always the same and hence beyond

time and beyond space. In deep sleep you have no sense of time. The

concept of time and space arises only when there is the limitation of

'I'. Even now the 'I' thought is both limitless and limited. So long

as you think it to be the body, it is limited. At the time of waking

up and before one actually becomes fully aware of the external world,

that interval, timeless, spaceless, is the state of the true I.

>Why do not your questions arise in deep sleep? The fact is you have

no limitations in sleep, and no questions arises. Whereas now you put

on identification with the body and questions of this kind arise.

>Deep sleep is always present even in the waking state. What we have

to do is to bring deep sleep into the waking state, to get "conscious

sleep." Realization can only take place in the waking state. Deep

sleep is relative to the waking state.

>Can that one consciousness divide itself into two? Is the division of

the Self felt? Awaking from sleep, on finds oneself the same in a

wakeful as in a sleep state. That is the experience of everyone. The

difference lies in seeing, in the outlook. In imagining that you are

the seer separate from experience, this difference appears.

Experience says that your real is the same all through. Do you feel

the difference of external and internal during your sleep? This

difference is only with reference to the body and arises with

body-consciousness (the 'I-thought'). The so called Jagrat is itself

an illusion. Even the material sciences trace the origin of the

universe to some one primordial matter - very subtle.

>God is the same both to those who say the Jagrat is real and their

opponents. Their outlooks are different. You need not enmesh yourself

in such disputations. The goal is one and the same for all. Look to

it.

>The states of deep sleep, waking and dreaming are accretions on the

ego; the Self is the witness of all. The Self transcends them all.

This Witness - Consciousness - should be found. In the Self there are

not separate states, no waking, sleeping or deep sleep; It is ever

there.

>Q.

>On inquiry into the origin of thoughts, there is a perception of 'I'.

But it does not satisfy one.

>A.

>Quite right. The perception of 'I' is associated with a form, maybe

the body. There should be nothing associated with the pure Self. The

Self is the un-associated, pure Reality in whose light, the body, the

ego etc. shine. On stilling all thoughts, only pure consciousness

remains. When just awaking from sleep and before becoming aware of

the world, there is that pure 'I' - 'I'. Hold to it without sleeping

or without allowing thoughts to possess you. If that is held firm

nothing matters even though one sees the world - the seer remains

unaffected by the phenomena.

>If there were no such activities as waking thoughts and dream

thoughts, there would not be the corresponding worlds, i.e. no

perception of them. In deep sleep there are no such activities, and

the world does not then exist for us.

>In dreamless sleep there is no world, no ego and no unhappiness. But

the Self remains. In the wakeful state there are all these; yet there

is the Self. One has only to remove the transitory happenings in order

to realize the ever-present beatitude of the Self. Your nature is

bliss. Find that on which all the rest are superimposed and you then

remain as the pure Self.

>Q.

>Is there any genuine difference between dream experience and waking state?

>A.

>Because you find the dream creations transitory in relation to the

waking state, there is said to be a difference. The difference is

only apparent and not real.

>Q.

>Why can we not always remain in and enter deep slumber at will?

>A.

>Deep sleep exists also in the wakeful state. We are ever in deep

sleep. That should consciously be understood and realized. There is

really no going or coming from it. Becoming aware of the deep sleep

state whilst in the world state is Samadhi. It is Nature i.e.

prarabdha which forces you to emerge from it. Your ego is not dead

and will rise again and again.

>Q.

>Why is it that we remember dreams when awake but not the reverse?

>A.

>You are wrong. You are yourself in a dream but identify yourself as the one now speaking!

>~from 'Conscious Immortality: conversations with Ramana Maharshi' by Paul Brunton

>

>Love,

>

>Mazie

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>"Love itself is the actual form of God."

>Sri Ramana

>In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

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October 25, 2003

--- bhuvan eswar chilukuri

<bhuvaneswarc wrote:

SNIP

>

> NOW,I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER THERE IS ANY ONE IN OUR

> GROUP WHO HAS THE EXPERIENCE OF SEEING THE

> UNFOLDMENT OF THOUGHT FORM ITS SOURCE!

>

> How is it formed?How is it transmitted?How is it

> comprehended?

>

SNIP

Dear Friend,

The source of thought is the same source as the source

of everything. Thoughts are not from some separate

source. That source is an inexplicable,

inexpressible, LIFE--A BLISS.

I have been chastised on more than one occasion for

not referring to IT as consciousness. But I speak of

what I know, I do not "parrot" the common teachings.

I speak from experience. Consciousness is one aspect

of the LIFE FORCE/BLISS. Pray tell what is

consciousness without someTHING to be conscious of?

The LIFE FORCE/BLISS is the source of everything.

Your bodily existence arose from that. Indeed

everything arises from IT. Furthermore, we live for

it--BLISS/happiness. And when this manifestation

dissolves it dissolves into that BLISS.

Love,

michael

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October 26, 2003

Dear Sri Bhuvanji:

You raise an interesting topic and I see you are really interested.

I will be quick so forgive the typos.

The scriptures say that Knowledge of the Heart is the only True Knowledge.

The Upanishads speak of the Hridya Gufa (Cave of the Heart) entering

which the mind becomes one with Brahman.

The Heart is the source of all thoughts,

and hence all processes involving languaging (which is of particular interest to you).

The Heart is the source, as the light of consciousness emerges from the Heart.

That light gives rise to all perceptions of this and other worlds and realms.

The mind or the ego self when it rises to the brain finds the suitable apparatus

and expresses itself through feelings and thoughts influenced by memories.

In certain meditative states, one can see the automatic nature and rising of the thinking process.

The state of the nervous system affects the mental and thought processes.

When an attempt is made to follow thoughts back to the source, it

can only succeed up to a point.

It is because the attempt itself is a thought or based on thought.

However the energy behind the intent when it is sincere bring forth a response.

That is called Grace.

Thoughts followed back, condense into feelings and symbols.

The power of languaging is lost there (and also not needed).

(This is what happens in divine visions of a high order as well.

Languaging is lost. Communication is at a different level).

Feelings and symbols when having the energy of Grace

do not resist the Heart.

On entering the Heart, these also get lost, all becomes Heart.

One becomes the Heart.

This state is that of Pure Bliss. This is experienced in deep sleep, but unconsciously.

When entered Consciously, it is Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

When the light of the Self again rises to the brain and pervades the nervous system,

perceptions occur and the thought processes start again.

Then the possibility of language comes into play.

Love to all

Harsha

bhuvan eswar chilukuri wrote: