FIRST INSTALMENT:On the origin Of Thought :Conscious Immortality: conver

[Guest guest]

Respected Sri Bhuvanji:

 

I appreciate your placing so much confidence in me!

 

You may not be aware that I have to earn my living (which is frankly

pretty time consuming).

 

Honestly, you are asking me to write a book here, and not the book I

have in mind!

 

The principle of primal energy or Kundalini Shakti is behind the

generation of automatic thoughts that come to the surface of the mind.

One aspect of the Shakti is the massive power of the unconscious which

influences the conscious thought process. However, conscious will also

impacts the unconscious mind.

 

Divine visions transcend the normal thought process.

 

Do you recall the story of Naren (Vivekananda) asking Ramakrishna to

have the Divine Mother intercede and help out his poor family and mother.

 

Ramakrishna asked Naren to do it himself and meditate on the Mother.

 

However, every time the Goddess appeared, Naren was unable to ask her

anything or speak. He was speechless before the vision.

 

Sri Bhuvanji, respectfully, I cannot carry on this conversation further

and use time in this manner.

 

The best thing to do if you wish to continue your research seriously

would be to take up the practices of yoga and meditation and inquiry.

 

I would advise you to study and practice the teachings of Sri Ramana.

 

Based on your own experience, you will come up with a better theory

which will satisfy you,

 

Love,

Harsha

 

 

 

 

bhuvan eswar chilukuri wrote:

> RESPECTED SIR,

>

> HERE IS THE FIRST INSTALMENT OF MY IGNORANCE.PLEASE LET ME KNOW THE TRUTH AS

YOU GO THROUGH THE OBSERVATIONS MADE BY ME UNDER YOUR LEARNED REFLECTIONS IN

YOUR GENEROUS LETTER!

>

> WITH PRANAMS

>

> CHILUKURI BHUVANESWAR

>

> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 Harsha wrote :

>

>>Dear Sri Bhuvanji:

>>

>>You raise an interesting topic and I see you are really interested.

>>

>>I will be quick so forgive the typos.

>>

>>The scriptures say that Knowledge of the Heart is the only True Knowledge.

>>

>>The Upanishads speak of the Hridya Gufa (Cave of the Heart) entering which the

mind becomes one with Brahman.

>>

>>The Heart is the source of all thoughts,

>>and hence all processes involving languaging (which is of particular interest

to you).

>>

>>The Heart is the source, as the light of consciousness emerges from the Heart.

>>

>>That light gives rise to all perceptions of this and other worlds and realms.

>>

>>The mind or the ego self when it rises to the brain finds the suitable

apparatus

>>and expresses itself through feelings and thoughts influenced by memories.

>

>

> ********

>

> I ALWAYS WONDER AT THE NATURE OF THE SEQUENCE OF THOUGHTS ERUPTING.WHAT IS THE

UNDERLYING PRINCIPLE WHICH GOVERNS WHICH THOUGHT SHOULD COME AT WHICH TIME AND

PLACE AND IN WHICH MANNER WITH WHAT EFFECT.

>

> ANY COMMENTS ON THIS PROCESS,SIR?

>

> *******

>

>

>>In certain meditative states, one can see the automatic nature and rising of

the thinking process.

>

>

> *******

>

> YES,SIR.THIS IS OF CRUCIAL IMPORTANCE TO ME!

>

> WHAT IS THE BACKGROUND THAT BRINGS FORTH A CERTAIN THOUGHT AS THAT THOUGHT

IS?WHAT IS THE SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE UNDERLYING THIS THINKING PROCESS?

>

> *******

>

>>The state of the nervous system affects the mental and thought processes.

>

>

> ****

>

> DOES IT MEAN THAT THINKING IS CONTROLLED BY THE BODY OR VICE VERSA OR BY

RECIPROCAL RELATION?

>

>

>>When an attempt is made to follow thoughts back to the source, it can only

succeed up to a point.

>>

>>It is because the attempt itself is a thought or based on thought.

>>

>>However the energy behind the intent when it is sincere bring forth a

response.

>>

>>That is called Grace.

>>

>>Thoughts followed back, condense into feelings and symbols.

>

>

> ******

>

> WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FEELING AND A THOUGHT?

>

>

> ********

>

>>The power of languaging is lost there (and also not needed).

>>

>>(This is what happens in divine visions of a high order as well.

>

>

> ******

>

> I AM CONFUSED HERE! PLEASE BE PATIENT SIR AND EXCUSE ME MY IGNORANCE!

> HOW CAN A VISION TAKE PLACE WITHOUT A THOUGHT? CAN A VISION OR FOR THAT MATTER

ANY DIFFERENTIATED AWARENESS OF THIS AND THAT TAKE PLACE WITHOUT THE THINKING

PROCESS IN OPERATION?

>

>

>>Languaging is lost. Communication is at a different level).

>>

>>Feelings and symbols when having the energy of Grace

>>

>>do not resist the Heart.

>>

>>On entering the Heart, these also get lost, all becomes Heart.

>>

>>One becomes the Heart.

>>

>>This state is that of Pure Bliss. This is experienced in deep sleep, but

unconsciously.

>>

>>When entered Consciously, it is Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

>>

>>When the light of the Self again rises to the brain and pervades the nervous

system,

>>perceptions occur and the thought processes start again.

>>

>>Then the possibility of language comes into play.

>>

>

> *****

> WHEN CREATION TOOK PLACE - FROM A VYAVAHARIKA SATTA LEVEL - THE CREATOR MUST

HAVE VISUALISED CREATION.AT THIS STAGE THERE IS NEITHER THE UNIVERSE NOR THE

LANGUAGE OF HUMANS.SURELY ESWARA MUST HAVE VISUALISED THE UNIVERSE AS THIS AND

THAT BEFORE IT CAME INTO EXISTENCE.AT THIS STAGE WHAT IS THE LANGUAGE HE USED -

I GUESS HE SAW IT AS THE CONSTITUENTS OF THE UNIVERSE ITSELF. BUT WHAT IS THE

SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE THAT GUIDED THIS CREATION IN ITS MIND BOGGLING COMPLEXITY

OF ACTION AND REACTION.I AM BASING MY THEORY ON THIS CRUCIAL ASPECT :THE

LANGUAGE OF ACTION .

>

> i DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE LANGUAGE OF CREATION AND THE LANGUAGE OF HUMANS.THE

LANGUAGE OF HUMANS IS A LANGUAGE OF SECONDARY ACTION DERIVED AND DEPENDANT ON

THE LANGUAGE OF PRIMARY ACTION BY ESWARA.

>

> AFTER I GET SOME FEEDBACK,I WILL SEND MY THEORY FOR CORRECTION BY THE SEERS.

>

>>Love to all

>>

>>Harsha

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>bhuvan eswar chilukuri wrote:

>>

>>

>>>Dearest Mazie Lane,

>>>

>>>Thank you so much for this beautiful Deepavali gift!!!

>>>

>>>It is only yesterday I was discussing the concept of thought:What is it ? How

does it come about?

>>>

>>>I do not know much about Ramana Maharshi's teachings even though I read them

first by the courtesy of my brother and then through a friend of mine Gupta with

whom I used to read His teachings.

>>>

>>>My Lord and my Master Sri Samkara Bhagavatpujyapada might have told Him to

help me out of a very difficult problem of trying to know how languaging takes

place.

>>>

>>>I have a very serious problem in realizing the unfoldment of the thought

process.I was doing the Gayathri japam and tried to go back to the source.It is

the clue given by Sri Ramana that did the trick:Leave the thought and get the

thoughter.I did it without first knowing this and ,and suddenly by His grace,I

found out that the awareness without the thought is the Ego as pointed out by

Sri Ramana.I tried many times though not seriously to push it further and

further to its original source.I feel that there is something beyond it but

covered by darkness and I am not yet able to pierce it or go beyond it.

>>>

>>>NOW,I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER THERE IS ANY ONE IN OUR GROUP WHO HAS THE

EXPERIENCE OF SEEING THE UNFOLDMENT OF THOUGHT FORM ITS SOURCE!

>>>

>>>How is it formed?How is it transmitted?How is it comprehended?

>>>

>>>Sri Satkarta - I do not know him - has sent some e mail on sabda Brahman . I

was reading Sri Lalitha Sahasra Namam and am aware of the terms

pasyanthi,madhyama and vaikhari.I also have the experience of seeing the birth

of a thought but I do not know how they are formed. I am only theorizing about

it.

>>>

>>>Any one who has advanced in yoga may kindly help me to know more about this -

if they have real life experience in understanding the formation of thoughts.

>>>

>>>This is a very serious problem for my research and I should be grateful to

those who can throw more light on this.

>>>

>>>I am trying to build a theory for correctional analysis by BHASHA YOGAM - the

term is mine and please excuse me for using it -

>>>On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 Mazie Lane wrote :

>>>

>>>

>>>>Avastatryaya - Sri Ramana

>>>>Q.

>>>>Why is there no meditation during dreaming? Is such possible?

>>>>A.

>>>>Ask it in the dream. You are told to meditate now and ask who you are.

Instead of doing it you ask such question. Dream and sleep are for the same

person as waking. You are the witness of both - they pass before you. Because

you are out of meditation now, such questions arise.

>>>>Q.

>>>>What happens to the consciousness of a Realized one is sleep?

>>>>A.

>>>>Such a question arises only in the minds of unrealized beholders. He [who is

realised] has but One state, which is unbroken throughout all 24 hours, whether

in what you call sleeping, or in waking. As a matter of fact the majority of

people are all asleep, because they are not awake to the Self.

>>>>In a state of deep sleep we lay down our ego (Ahankara), our thoughts and

our desires. If we could only do all this while we are conscious, we would

realize the Self.

>>>>The best form of Dhyana or Meditation is when it continues not merely in

waking but extends to dream and deep sleep states. This mediation must be so

intense as to not even allow room for the idea "I am meditation." As waking and

dreaming are fully occupied by the Dhyana of such a person, deep sleep may be

considered to be part of the Dhyan.

>>>>Sanyas is the giving up of the ego; even though a person may be living as a

householder within a family circle, the various occurrences of the world will

not affect him if his ego is surrendered. Hence dream experiences do not really

affect us. The dreamer as he quietly lies in his bed dreams he is in water, but

his bed is not really wet. On the other hand, a person though remaining in a

Sanyasa ashrama who still has attachment to the body, is a karmi, (man of

action, not renunciation).

>>>>Q.

>>>>In the West people cannot see how sages in solitude can be helpful.

>>>>A.

>>>>Never mind Europe and America. Where are they except in your mind? If you

wake up from a dream, do you try to ascertain if the persons of your dream

creation are also awake?

>>>>Q.

>>>>If sleep be such a good state, why does one not like to be always in it?

>>>>A.

>>>>One is always in sleep only. The present waking state is no more that a

dream. A dream can take place only in sleep. Sleep unders these states. The

appearance of a state is again a dream which is in its turn, in another sleep.

In this way, these states of dream and sleep are endless. Similar to these

states, birth and death are also dreams in a sleep.

>>>>After sleep ego arises and there is wakefulness. Simultaneously thoughts

arise. Where from? They must spring from the conscious Self. Apprehending this

even vaguely helps in the extinction of the ego, after which is realization of

the ONE INFINITE EXISTENCE. In that state there are no individuals other than

the Eternal Existence. Abide in the ever inherent Self and be free from the idea

of birth or fear of death.

>>>>Q.

>>>>We do not know we are dreaming, whereas in waking we do?

>>>>A.

>>>>The dream is a combination of waking with deep sleep. It is due to the

samskaras of the waking state. Hence we remember dreams. Samskaras are not

formed contrawise [in deep sleep]; hence we are not aware of the dream world

simultaneously. Still , every one recollects strange perplexities in a dream,

when one wonders if he is awake or dreaming. When really awake, he finds all was

only a dream.

>>>>Q.

>>>>How to remove this ignorance?

>>>>A.

>>>>You dream of finding yourself in another town. Can another town enter your

room? Could you have left and gone there. Both are impossible. Both are unreal.

They appear real to the mind. The 'I' of the dream has vanished. But the

substratum of the mind continues all along. Find that and you will be happy.

>>>>Q.

>>>>I consider sleep a worse state than waking.

>>>>A.

>>>>If it were so, why do all desire sleep?

>>>>There are different methods of approach to prove the unreality of the

universe. The example of the dream is one among them. Jagrat, Swapna, and

Sushupti are all treated elaborately in the scriptures in order that the reality

underlying them might be revealed. It is not meant to accentuate differences

among the three states. Their purpose must be kept clearly in view. They say

that the world is unreal. Of what degree of unreality? Is it like that of a son

of a barren mother or flower in the sky? These are mere words without any

reference to facts, whereas the world is a fact and not a mere word.

>>>>The answer is that it is a superimposition of the One reality - like the

appearance of a snake on a coiled rope in dim light. Here too the wrong identity

ceases as soon as the friend points out that it is a rope, whereas in the matter

of the world, it persists even after I have heard it said to be unreal. How is

that?

>>>>The appearance of water in a mirage has dawned. So it is with the world.

Though knowing it to be unreal, it continues to manifest. Maybe - but the water

of a mirage is not sought to satisfy one's thirst. As soon as one knows that it

is a mirage, he gives it up as useless and does not run after it for procuring

water.

>>>>Q.

>>>>It is not so with the appearance of the world. Even after it is repeatedly

declared to be false one cannot avoid satisfying his wants from the world. How

can the world be false?

>>>>A.

>>>>It is like one satisfying his dream wants by dream creations. There are

objects, there are wants and there are mutual satisfactions. The dream creations

are as purposeful as the jagrat world and yet is not considered real. Thus we

see that all these illustrations serve a purpose in establishing the stages of

unreality. The realized sage finally declares that in the regenerate state, the

jagrat state is. Each illustration should be understood in the proper context;

it should not be studied as an isolated statement. It is a link in a chain. The

purpose of all these illustrations is to direct the seeker's mind towards the

One reality underlying them all.

>>>>Q.

>>>>Is the dream world not as purposeful as the waking world because we do not

feel that wants are satisfied?

>>>>A.

>>>>You are not right. There are thirst and hunger in dreams also. You might

have had your fill and kept over the remaining food. Nevertheless you feel

hungry in your dream. This food does not help you and your dream hunger can be

satisfied only be eating the dream creations.

>>>>Q.

>>>>We recollect our dreams in our jagrat but not vice versa.

>>>>A.

>>>>You are yourself in the dream and identify yourself as the one now speaking.

>>>>Q.

>>>>But [in the dream] we do not know that we are dreaming as apart from the

waking state, as we do now?

>>>>A.

>>>>The dream is the combination of jagrat with sushupti. It is due to the

samskaras of the jagrat state. Hence we remember dreams at present. Samskarsas

are not found contrariwise; therefore also we are aware of the dream and of

jagrat simultaneously. Still every one will recollect strange perplexities in

the dream. One wonders if he dreams or is awake. He argues and determines that

he is only awake. When really awake he finds that all that was only a dream.

>>>>Q.

>>>>Is there any real distinction between dream and waking?

>>>>A.

>>>>Only apparent, not real. The dream is for one who says that he is awake.

Both are unreal from absolute viewpoint.

>>>>The ego arises when you wake up from sleep. In sleep you do not say that

your are sleeping; you say only when you wake up. But still you are there. You

where not concerned with the body when asleep; so can you always remain

unconcerned.

>>>>In the waking state the ego identifies itself with a physical body; during a

dream [the identification is] with the subtle mind. Then perceptions are subtle

also.

>>>>Q.

>>>>Is it possible to be conscious without thought?

>>>>A.

>>>>Yes. There is only one consciousness. In sleep there is no I. The I-thought

arises on waking and then the world appears. Where was this I in sleep?> Was it

there or not? It must have been there, yet not in the way you feel now. The

present is only the I-thought, whereas the sleeping I is the real I. That

subsists all through. That is consciousness. If that is known you will see that

it is beyond thoughts. Thoughts may be like other activities, not disturbing

supreme Consciousness.

>>>>Q.

>>>>I do not understand your reference to dreams and mental illusion.

>>>>A.

>>>>Our experience of the world is evoked and dissolved by the mind. When you

travel from India to London does your body really move? No! It is the conveyance

which moves and your body remains inside it without itself traveling. It is the

ship and the train which travels. Just as these movements are superimposed upon

your body, so are visions, dream states and even re-incarnations superimposed

upon your real Self. The latter does not move and is not affected by all these

outward changes, remaining still in its own place even as the body remains still

in the ship's cabin. You are always the same and hence beyond time and beyond

space. In deep sleep you have no sense of time. The concept of time and space

arises only when there is the limitation of 'I'. Even now the 'I' thought is

both limitless and limited. So long as you think it to be the body, it is

limited. At the time of waking up and before one actually becomes fully aware of

the external world, that interval, timeless,

spaceless, is the state of the true I.

>>>>Why do not your questions arise in deep sleep? The fact is you have no

limitations in sleep, and no questions arises. Whereas now you put on

identification with the body and questions of this kind arise.

>>>>Deep sleep is always present even in the waking state. What we have to do is

to bring deep sleep into the waking state, to get "conscious sleep." Realization

can only take place in the waking state. Deep sleep is relative to the waking

state.

>>>>Can that one consciousness divide itself into two? Is the division of the

Self felt? Awaking from sleep, on finds oneself the same in a wakeful as in a

sleep state. That is the experience of everyone. The difference lies in seeing,

in the outlook. In imagining that you are the seer separate from experience,

this difference appears. Experience says that your real is the same all through.

Do you feel the difference of external and internal during your sleep? This

difference is only with reference to the body and arises with body-consciousness

(the 'I-thought'). The so called Jagrat is itself an illusion. Even the material

sciences trace the origin of the universe to some one primordial matter - very

subtle.

>>>>God is the same both to those who say the Jagrat is real and their

opponents. Their outlooks are different. You need not enmesh yourself in such

disputations. The goal is one and the same for all. Look to it.

>>>>The states of deep sleep, waking and dreaming are accretions on the ego; the

Self is the witness of all. The Self transcends them all. This Witness -

Consciousness - should be found. In the Self there are not separate states, no

waking, sleeping or deep sleep; It is ever there.

>>>>Q.

>>>>On inquiry into the origin of thoughts, there is a perception of 'I'. But it

does not satisfy one.

>>>>A.

>>>>Quite right. The perception of 'I' is associated with a form, maybe the

body. There should be nothing associated with the pure Self. The Self is the

un-associated, pure Reality in whose light, the body, the ego etc. shine. On

stilling all thoughts, only pure consciousness remains. When just awaking from

sleep and before becoming aware of the world, there is that pure 'I' - 'I'. Hold

to it without sleeping or without allowing thoughts to possess you. If that is

held firm nothing matters even though one sees the world - the seer remains

unaffected by the phenomena.

>>>>If there were no such activities as waking thoughts and dream thoughts,

there would not be the corresponding worlds, i.e. no perception of them. In deep

sleep there are no such activities, and the world does not then exist for us.

>>>>In dreamless sleep there is no world, no ego and no unhappiness. But the

Self remains. In the wakeful state there are all these; yet there is the Self.

One has only to remove the transitory happenings in order to realize the

ever-present beatitude of the Self. Your nature is bliss. Find that on which all

the rest are superimposed and you then remain as the pure Self.

>>>>Q.

>>>>Is there any genuine difference between dream experience and waking state?

>>>>A.

>>>>Because you find the dream creations transitory in relation to the waking

state, there is said to be a difference. The difference is only apparent and not

real.

>>>>Q.

>>>>Why can we not always remain in and enter deep slumber at will?

>>>>A.

>>>>Deep sleep exists also in the wakeful state. We are ever in deep sleep. That

should consciously be understood and realized. There is really no going or

coming from it. Becoming aware of the deep sleep state whilst in the world state

is Samadhi. It is Nature i.e. prarabdha which forces you to emerge from it. Your

ego is not dead and will rise again and again.

>>>>Q.

>>>>Why is it that we remember dreams when awake but not the reverse?

>>>>A.

>>>>You are wrong. You are yourself in a dream but identify yourself as the one

now speaking!

>>>>~from 'Conscious Immortality: conversations with Ramana Maharshi' by Paul

Brunton

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>Love,

>>>>

>>>>Mazie

>>>>Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American Greetings!

>>>> Sponsor

>>>>

>>>>/join

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>"Love itself is the actual form of God."

>>>>Sri Ramana

>>>>In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

>>>>Your use of is subject to the

>>>> Terms of Service

>>>>.

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

>>--

>

>

 

--

 

[Guest guest]

Respected Sri Bhuvanji:

 

harshaji: The best thing to do if you wish to continue your research

seriously would be to take up the practices of yoga and meditation

and inquiry.I would advise you to study and practice the teachings of

Sri Ramana.Based on your own experience, you will come up with a

better theory which will satisfy you,

 

devi: if your not totally satisfied with Sri Ramana approach to the

truth, i'd like to suggest that you read Meher Baba words...for me He

explained almost everything *i* ever wanted to know..about creation

about evolution, involution and realization...the book God Speaks is

a good place to start..you can still do self-inquiry while

reading...meher baba says that the first question you/God ever had

was *who am i?* and your last answer comes as *i am God*..to me all

of ignorant expereince is what happens in between this first question

and last answer...

 

namaste

 

>

>

>

>

>