Abiding in the Self AND working

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the posts from Michael L et al on the subject of working

and Self abidance.

Michael L,

Thanks for the additions to your website. I agree with you & with what

is written. Practicing is more needed than just reading about abiding

in the Self.

Bobby G,

I see that you have similar questions as I about combining work and

practicing Self abidance. I think, we should disassociate the two

first: practicing Self abidance through meditation etc. and work. We

should first realize that we are the Self. Work will then be done

abiding in the Self - we will not have the egoistic feelings and the

work place politics & other factors will not affect us. So, let's get

back to sadhana to realise that we are the Self. It is tougher than

talking about it.

Eliminating distracting elements at work, trying to love work etc. may

help. But, I think they only give partial solutions. There is no

alternative to realising first that we are the Self.

James,

Once you realize that you are the Self, everything is Self & Love /

compassion etc will be automatically present. This is my

understanding.

michael,

I agree with you. If you are the Self while not working (i.e. during

meditation), you will be the Self while working also. So, the first

thing to do is to do sadhana to realise that we are the Self.

Harsha,

It was wrong choice of words from me when I said 'abiding in the ego'.

I just wanted to mean 'doing actions driven by ego'.

Sundar

Mon Nov 3, 2003 10:49 pm Abiding in the Self AND

working

Dear Michael,I read in Sri Muruganar's writings, about the awareness

watching awareness method of meditation.

I have one question, which I wonder, if you could clear. For those of

us who have to go to work to earn a living, how do we go about

"abiding in & as pure awareness", while at the same time performing

our jobs?

Awareness watching awareness is fine when we are sitting and

meditating. But, while performing our jobs, the mind is engaged in

the job. How do we get the jobs done while at the same time abiding

in the Self?

With respects,

sundar

Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:20 pm Re: Abiding in the Self AND

working

Dear Sundar:The following quote can be read near the bottom of the

Instructions Page:"In black above are actual practice instructions

for two approaches to Self-inquiry.You can choose one or the other or

try a combination of both.The `To whom do these thoughts arise?'

approach to Self-inquiry is more compatible with daily

activities.Thus you could, if you wish, use the "To whom do these

thoughts arise?" approach when you have other activities going on,and

use the awareness watching awareness approach when you have set aside

time with no other activities going on."You can read it at this

link:http://uarelove1.tripod.com/inquiry_abidance.htmTake care, with Love,Michael L.

Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:32 am Re: Abiding in the Self AND

working

Hello Michael,1. Your web sites are full of very deep statements from

Sri Muruganarthat stress the importance of abiding in the Self.

Relativelyspeaking, the method of awareness watching awareness is not

explainedthat exhaustively. Let me know if there is another site that

goesinto the details of the method. Probably your

sitehttp://uarelove1.tripod.com/FOUNDATION.htm may contain

moreinformation on the method in future.2. While performing my tasks

at work, I can not be asking 'to whomare these thoughts happening',

since I am in the middle of the work &I need to focus on the task at

hand.3. Perhaps, if I have first

practiced deep meditation usingthe 'awareness watching awareness'

method or some such method, thenwork can happen without any 'I'

attached to it. In this way, I willnot be TRYING to 'abide in the

Self' while performing my tasks.Instead, tasks will be getting

performed when in the Self state or bythe Self (with the body as the

instrument).Let me know if you have more comments on this. I thank

you for yourvery useful websites.With respect,Sundar

Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:34 pm Re: Abiding in the Self AND

working

Hello Bobby G,I am still looking for an easily understandable

suggestion forperforming my task obligations while abiding in the

Self.Should I remind myself often that I should not be abiding in the

ego

FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">(as I seem to be doing presently) while performing tasks?sundar

Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:26 pm Re: Abiding in the Self AND

working

Dear Sundar:

I have the same problem. One reason I came to the "lists" was to

seehow other people thought about Ramana Maharshi's upadesa.I get

wrapped up in my work also.Perhaps work is distracting because of

things that can be mitigated.Workplace politics creates mental

distraction. Romance,insecurity,new projects, learning curves,

complaints, taxes, governmentinvolvement, and all sorts of other

things can contribute to 'abidingin the ego'. Maybe these things can

be approached as projects inthemselves with the end in mind of peace

to abide in the Self.LoveBobby G.

Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:16 am Re: Abiding in the Self AND

working

Hi Bobby G. and Sundar,

I feel that Relaxation is the Ultimate Discipline/Challenge.(trying to

relax is 'trying' - it is not relaxation)In this light you do

'nothing'. This does not mean thatthere is no action. Intelligent

action unfolds from Seeing clearlyand seeing clearly is natural when

there is no obstruction to Seeing.

I feel that all the wise comments that say 'You are Love'and/or ask

you to explore 'Who am I?' are ways to come to theunderstanding that

'Love itself is the actual form of God'; and itis not so much this

statement is significant - rather it is itsimpact.If/when you truly

see that you are Love, what impactwould/does that have? would 'you'

relax...?And when 'you' relax the current of what you are naturally

New'">flows through you and as you - it acts.Love and Gratitude,

James

Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:53 am Re: Abiding in the Self AND

working

> Hello Michael,

> 1. Your web sites are full of very deep statements from

SriMuruganar> that stress the importance of abiding in the Self.

Relatively> speaking, the method of awareness watching awareness is

notexplained> that exhaustively.Dear Sundar:The brevity of the

explanation on these two

links:http://uarelove1.tripod.com/inquiry_abidance.htmhttp://uarelove1.tripod.com/AWA_DISCOVERY.htmis

deliberate. The reasons for the

brevity are:#1. One primarily learns by practicing.#2. In order not to

feed the desire for conceptsthat Sri Ramana gave so many warnings

aboutin this collection of

quotes:http://uarelove1.tripod.com/READING_AND_DISCUSSING.htmIn those

first two links all of Sri Muruganar's quotes are alsoserving as an

explanation of the method, not only the words that Ihave written in

explanation.The turning inward quotes are also part of the

method:http://uarelove1.tripod.com/world.htmhttp://uarelove1.tripod.com/TURNING_INWARD.htmBecause

the method is awareness watching awareness while ignoring andturning

one's attention

away from the world, the body, thought etc.and the two links above are

Sri Muruganar's instructions in theturning inward part of the

practice.Although I can't remember everything I read in those 2000

books Iread during the 25 year period that I was lost in

intellectualspirituality posing as real spirituality,I think that the

following quote from Sorupa Saram which I onlydiscovered very

recently, might be the most vital, powerful,significant quote for

those extremely few individuals who areseriously determined to be

free of the ego illusion:67. Question:"But will not this experience

come to everyone"

Answer:"If one becomes inward-turned instead of being externalized,

this experience will come for everyone. I declare: 'If their minds

are directed inward, attending to the light (the Self), and do not

become outward-turned, all those upon this earth are capable of

seeing the Self, just as I have seen my Self.'"That quote is well

worth reading very slowly over and over.Thus the great importance of

knowing exactly what "turning inward means. Thus the great value of

those two collection of quote with more than 200 quotes (world and

turning inward links above) by Sri Muruganar as to what the meaning

of turning inward is.There is another quote that is even more

essential, even if not

as well stated as #67 above:76. Question:"How to be rid of

desires?"Answer:"Through desire for realization of the truth. O

desire! Though I suffered much through you, on account of your help I

dwelt in the Self. I reached the Sadguru through you. In liberation I

have, along with you, become the Self. I swear to this."The reason

this quote is essential is because the desire for the realization of

truth is the solution to every problem one seeking liberation might

encounter.It was the quantum leap in the desire for liberation that

produced the great change in my consciousness. It was not something

sudden. There was an attempt at more self honesty and then the desire

for liberation began growing a littleeach day. Just for sake of

illustration lets say it grew at the rate of 1% per

day. After a hundred days it had doubled to its previous level.

Eventually as a couple of years rolled by, the desire for liberation

had grown to levels that I did not know existed because I had not

previously experienced them.When the desire for freedom becomes very,

very intense, all the previous outlook disappears.Every obstacle that

one intent upon liberation encounters is a fantasy created by the

ego. It is the great increase in the desire for liberation that

allows one to see all that the ego had hidden previously.The solution

to every problem one who desires liberation faces, is to increase the

desire for liberation.Why? Because when the increase in the desire

for liberation becomes like a force or power. It demands that all

obstacles be swept away and when the desire for liberation is intense

enough, it does just

that, sweeps them away.If a question needs answering, the desire for

liberation itself brings the answer. When the desire for liberation

reaches an extreme level, doubt comes to an end.Probably your site>

http://uarelove1.tripod.com/FOUNDATION.htm may contain more>

information on the method in future.Well there may or not be much

more informaton on the Foundaton page in the future. However already

today, much more information has been added there. A new section has

been added called "The Desire for Liberation" It is section

VIII.There are 108 numbered points there. However, there is a lot of

repetition, the same point being phrased in different words.I have

removed that long description of the negative side of human life from

the

Foundation page. The reason I have removed it, is because that is more

of a one time or once per year exercise, because the positive is more

effective in motivating than the negative.>> 2. While performing my

tasks at work, I can not be asking 'to whom> are these thoughts

happening', since I am in the middle of the work&> I need to focus on

the task at hand.>> 3. Perhaps, if I have first practiced deep

meditation using> the 'awareness watching awareness' method or some

such method, then> work can happen without any 'I' attached to it. In

this way, I will> not be TRYING to 'abide in the Self' while

performing my tasks.> Instead, tasks will be getting performed when

in the Self state orby the Self (with the body as the instrument).You

bring up a very good

point here. People are fond of quoting Sri Ramana Maharshi as saying

that inquiring for an hour or two per day is for spiritual novices,

and that one should inquire continuously.However, what they usually

leave out is that he also said that the current established by the

intensity of your inquiry during the hour or two per day, will

automatically carry over to the rest of the day.This is quite similar

to the point you make in #3 above.The hour or two per day that one

gives to awareness watching awareness is what is most essential,

because if one does not even give the hour or two per day to turning

inward without other activity, then the current will not be

established.Take care,with Love,Michael L.

Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07 am Re: Re:

Abiding in the Self AND working

Dear Sundar,> Hello Bobby G,> I am still looking for an easily

understandable> suggestion for> performing my task obligations while

abiding in the> Self.>SNIPIf you would know yourSELF as SELF while

not working, then you would also experience yourSELF as SELF whileat

work.I don't mean that you should "think" that you are SELF; but I

mean that if you can abide as SELF while not working then you can

also abide as SELF while working.Love,michael

Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:51 am Re: Abiding in the Self AND

working

, Harsha wrote:>

texasbg2000 wrote:>> >> > Perhaps work is distracting because of

things that can bemitigated.> > Workplace politics creates mental

distraction. Romance,insecurity,> > new projects, learning curves,

complaints, taxes, government> > involvement, and all sorts of other

things can contributeto 'abiding> > in the ego'. Maybe these things

can be approached as projects in> > themselves with the end in mind

of peace to abide in the Self.> >> > Love> > Bobby G.>> Abiding in the

ego? What does it mean? Would it be the ego abidingin> the ego? Sri

Ramana said to inquire into the nature of the ego orthe mind.>> What

is ego or mind? This question can be asked seriously.Hi Harsha:To

abide in the ego is phrased from the ego or "I" viewpoint. The mind

sees activities split between the time when I am absorbed in worldly

activities and Self Awareness. Seen from the viewpoint of Self

awareness, "II", there is not an abiding in the ego.I see this change

in viewpoint as a central issue in discussingmethodology. It is far to

easy to change viewpoints unknowingly andconfuse the issue.

Ramana suggested to find the source of the "I".Holding the "I" before

the mind seems to me the way to describe looking for the source but

it is harder to do when obligatory actions, work, impune. That is why

I suggested to find a way to love the work in a previous post and then

in this post to eliminate some of the distracting elements in work

that are not essential.It is what I do and God knows I might even be

worse off if I did not.LoveBobby G.

 

Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard

[Guest guest]

sundar sundararajan <sundar22ca

> 2003/11/12 Wed PM 06:49:14 EST

>

> Abiding in the Self AND working

> Harsha,

 

> It was wrong choice of words from me when I said 'abiding in the ego'. I just

wanted to mean 'doing actions driven by ego'.

>

> Sundar

 

Dear Sundar,

 

I came in the middle of the conversation and did not know who was saying what.

Actually, I still don't. My own response is a reaction to words. There is

nothing to take seriously one way or the other.

 

I guess words are words and we use them in a particular way. Behind the words

are felt conflicts. Conflicts of thoughts and feelings and actions.

 

To this or to do that or not to do this and that.

 

To say this or to say that.

 

To appear this way or that way.

 

To go this way or that way.

 

To love this person or that person or both.

 

Sri Ramana's teaching is crystal clear.

 

We need not be offended by the workings of the mind.

 

To be comfortable with conflicts and uncertainty is possible.

 

Minding the mind in a way that we do not mind the mind can bring on a letting

go, a relaxation.

 

I mean who are we really trying to impress! :-).

 

The end is always contained in the beginning.

 

Both exist here and now as One.

 

Love,

Harsha

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Love itself is the actual form of God."

 

Ramana Maharshi

[Guest guest]

, "Era" <satkarta7@j...> wrote:

> > > but abiding during painting is most

> > > easy isn't it?

> > >

> > > it goes into ecstatic absorption at

> > > times

> > >

> > > what wave would that be?

> > >

> > > and what wave one falls into during

> > > Zazen running?

> > >

> > > love, Era

> >

> > Hi Era:

> >

> > Maybe for you it is easy. When I paint, I come out of a session

in

> > tune and able to meditate better. The moment to moment

realization

> > is not there though during painting.

> > I think to paint one needs a strong proportion of Alpha and Beta

on

> > the right side for visuals and strong theta on the left side to

limit

> > distracting thoughts. That is just a guess though.

> >

> > I have done a massive amount of walking zazen. Around an hour a

day

> > for 12 years, more on many days. It is very focusing because of

the

> > rhythm of breathing and stepping. The source of the breath is

the

> > same place in the body as the source of the "I".

>

>

> this sounds so true Bobby G,

>

> and its new for my ears

>

> I wonder about; this did you follow

> the breath?

> is there such a practice?

 

Yes, following the inflow, retention, outflow and retention.

1 2 3 4, 1 2, 1 2 3 4,1 2

 

Some say that is harmful. The one method not harmful is retention on

the in breath only.

>

>

> you know in yoga I learned that the

> surat the chi-intellect follows the

> eyes, we gaze inside toward the pineal

> like the saints on the paintings

> upward in hope to burst through the

> veils

>

>

> -I am still trying to comprehend this

> I-I thingy, but it must be PRACTICED

> right?

 

For me Kartaji, it is simply being in the now instead of lost in a

chain of thoughts. When the chain stops The I is there waiting.

When held in the mind The I melts into the heart. When a thought

chain starts up again, inner focus is lost and the attention is

turned outward towards thoughts of the world.

 

So for me, "II" is identifying with or considering myself as the Now.

That identification stops when the world of thought chains as created

in the mind absorbs the attention.

>

> I don't think that reading and thinking

> will do anything

>

> I keep on forgetting to be mindful

>

> I thought of getting a gong-sound

> alarm-clock to gong every hour

>

> or make a commitment that every time

> when I walk to my car I'll do it

> mindfully

 

That is something I have done a lot of too. I would walk down the

street doing my breath control walking zazen and plan how I would go

into a store and remain mindful of each act in the now. Eventually

the mindful became more consistent but it took a while for me.

>

> --meditation was easy I woke up at 3

> and sat

 

That is why we do it then isn't it?

 

Love

Bobby G.

>

>

> >

> > The awakened mind (meditative state) brainwave proportion is low

> > beta, large alpha, and low theta, with little or no delta. The

> > proportions are symmetrical for both right and left hemispheres.

> >

> > Thanks

> > bobby G.

>

> love, Era

[Guest guest]

, "texasbg2000" <

Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:

>

> For me Kartaji, it is simply being in the now instead of lost in a

> chain of thoughts. When the chain stops The I is there waiting.

> When held in the mind The I melts into the heart. When a thought

> chain starts up again, inner focus is lost and the attention is

> turned outward towards thoughts of the world.

 

This is good, Bobby. I was following this thread and you hit the mark here.

At first thought,, the question ' how to abide as the Self and still work' seems

a bit silly since we know we ARE as we work, but we are not focussed *there.*

In love, we can work and think of our loved one constantly.

 

))))))) It seems that the one who asks the question ( and i don't mean

anyone in particular ) doesn't want to be where they are at the time. It shows

a desire to be elsewhere-- not here at work, but ' abiding in the Self' --so the

one who is having this problem is who? We might ask, 'Who is doing the

working?' We are always already abiding as the Self, since this who we are-

but we do not put our attention there.

 

you said: When a thought

> chain starts up again, inner focus is lost and the attention is

> turned outward towards thoughts of the world.

 

Two things about this come to mind:

 

One is that a 'thought chain' takes us *away* from what we are doing and our

relationship to the Now. It is an inner escape from our circumstances. And of

course we know it happens automaticly, which is really to say it happens

without our awareness....and why?....because we are not there to witness

because we have *identified with the thinking.*

 

Adi Da mentioned in one of his books (that I read long ago) that it might

behoove us to start thinking that we are only skin deep. By saying this, I think

he was pointing out to us that "inner focus" is simply the egoic avoidance of

our relationship with our condition. This brings me to the second thing.

 

When a person typically talks of turning within, it is assumed that there is a

serious looking within to find the Self, or the meaning of life and such. But

there is also the teaching that says,' all that is, arrises *in* consciousness.'

So sometimes I feel as if my self or soul actually is bigger than and contains

my body. And funny enough, this feeling tends to ground me nicely *as* the

bodymind. A great stillness is there ( as if I am not moving while walking) and

i am reminded of Sri Ramana's talk about how you never go anywhere (you

are always already Here) ...and of course that lovely bit about putting down

your bag when you get on the train!

 

love,

 

Shawn

[Guest guest]

> > > I have done a massive amount of walking zazen. Around an hour a

> day

> > > for 12 years, more on many days. It is very focusing because of

> the

> > > rhythm of breathing and stepping. The source of the breath is

> the

> > > same place in the body as the source of the "I".

> >

> >

> > this sounds so true Bobby G,

> >

> > and its new for my ears

> >

> > I wonder about; this did you follow

> > the breath?

>

> > is there such a practice?

>

> Yes, following the inflow, retention, outflow and retention.

> 1 2 3 4, 1 2, 1 2 3 4,1 2

>

> Some say that is harmful. The one method not harmful is retention on

> the in breath only.

>

> >

> >

> > you know in yoga I learned that the

> > surat the chi-intellect follows the

> > eyes, we gaze inside toward the pineal

> > like the saints on the paintings

> > upward in hope to burst through the

> > veils

> >

> >

> > -I am still trying to comprehend this

> > I-I thingy, but it must be PRACTICED

> > right?

>

> For me Kartaji, it is simply being in the now instead of lost in a

> chain of thoughts.

 

 

yes, but I don't notice when I go off

back to mindchatter

 

 

> When the chain stops The I is there waiting.

> When held in the mind The I melts into the heart.

 

hmmm

 

> When a thought

> chain starts up again, inner focus is lost and the attention is

> turned outward towards thoughts of the world.

>

> So for me, "II" is identifying with or considering myself as the Now.

> That identification stops when the world of thought chains as created

> in the mind absorbs the attention.

>

> >

> > I don't think that reading and thinking

> > will do anything

> >

> > I keep on forgetting to be mindful

> >

> > I thought of getting a gong-sound

> > alarm-clock to gong every hour

> >

> > or make a commitment that every time

> > when I walk to my car I'll do it

> > mindfully

>

> That is something I have done a lot of too. I would walk down the

> street doing my breath control walking zazen and plan how I would go

> into a store and remain mindful of each act in the now. Eventually

> the mindful became more consistent but it took a while for me.

>

 

yes, great I will do this

 

I see no difference between being in

the zone absorption mindfulness

 

in intensity maybe

 

but me without noticing I fell back

to mind chatter in sports or doing

artwork or even cooking when I am

100% paying attention of what I am

doing is easy

 

the funny thing when I am online

posting I loose mindfulness, it feels

as an unreal act

 

 

I heard from mindfulness practicing

monks that when they notice that they

fell out of it they trace it back

where it happened

 

lets say I made a deal with myself

that walking to the store I will

stay mindful and I notice that by

that tree the mindchatter started,

so I have to back to that tree an

start over and no matter how many

times it takes..

 

they say this works

 

thank you Bobby

> >

> > --meditation was easy I woke up at 3

> > and sat

>

> That is why we do it then isn't it?

>

> Love

> Bobby G.

>

> >

> >

> > >

> > > The awakened mind (meditative state) brainwave proportion is low

> > > beta, large alpha, and low theta, with little or no delta. The

> > > proportions are symmetrical for both right and left hemispheres.

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > bobby G.

> >

> > love, Era

[Guest guest]

Respected sir,

####

The end is always contained in the beginning.

Both exist here and now as One.

Love,

Harsha

#####

This is the quote for the day!

Stuff for Mazie lane to write a poem !

love always

Bhuvaneswar

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 harsha (AT) cox (DOT) net wrote :

> sundar sundararajan <sundar22ca >

> > 2003/11/12 Wed PM 06:49:14 EST

> >

> > Abiding in the Self AND working

> > Harsha,

>

>

> > It was wrong choice of words from me when I said 'abiding in the

ego'. I just wanted to mean 'doing actions driven by ego'.

> >

> > Sundar

>

>Dear Sundar,

>

>I came in the middle of the conversation and did not know who was

saying what. Actually, I still don't. My own response is a reaction

to words. There is nothing to take seriously one way or the other.

>

>I guess words are words and we use them in a particular way. Behind

the words are felt conflicts. Conflicts of thoughts and feelings and

actions.

>

>To this or to do that or not to do this and that.

>

>To say this or to say that.

>

>To appear this way or that way.

>

>To go this way or that way.

>

>To love this person or that person or both.

>

>Sri Ramana's teaching is crystal clear.

>

>We need not be offended by the workings of the mind.

>

>To be comfortable with conflicts and uncertainty is possible.

>

>Minding the mind in a way that we do not mind the mind can bring on a letting go, a relaxation.

>

>I mean who are we really trying to impress! :-).

>

>The end is always contained in the beginning.

>

>Both exist here and now as One.

>

>Love,

>Harsha

>

>

>

>

>

>

>"Love itself is the actual form of God."

>

>Ramana Maharshi

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------ Sponsor ---------------------~-->

>Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark

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>---~->

>

>/join

>

>

>

>

>

>"Love itself is the actual form of God."

>

>Sri Ramana

>

>In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

[Guest guest]

, "Shawn Hair" <shawn@w...>

wrote:

> , "texasbg2000" <

> Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:

>

> >

> > For me Kartaji, it is simply being in the now instead of lost in

a

> > chain of thoughts. When the chain stops The I is there waiting.

> > When held in the mind The I melts into the heart. When a thought

> > chain starts up again, inner focus is lost and the attention is

> > turned outward towards thoughts of the world.

>

> This is good, Bobby. I was following this thread and you hit the

mark here.

> At first thought,, the question ' how to abide as the Self and

still work' seems

> a bit silly since we know we ARE as we work, but we are not

focussed *there.*

> In love, we can work and think of our loved one constantly.

>

> ))))))) It seems that the one who asks the question ( and i don't

mean

> anyone in particular ) doesn't want to be where they are at the

time. It shows

> a desire to be elsewhere-- not here at work, but ' abiding in the

Self'

 

 

Hi shawn:

 

We are on the same page here. The world is a creation and as such

there is a desire present to create it. Whether it is avoidance of

something or attraction to something, there is a reason for its

creation. It must be ignorance in some form or other.

 

 

--so the

> one who is having this problem is who? We might ask, 'Who is doing

the

> working?' We are always already abiding as the Self, since this who

we are-

> but we do not put our attention there.

>

> you said: When a thought

> > chain starts up again, inner focus is lost and the attention is

> > turned outward towards thoughts of the world.

>

> Two things about this come to mind:

>

> One is that a 'thought chain' takes us *away* from what we are

doing and our

> relationship to the Now. It is an inner escape from our

circumstances. And of

> course we know it happens automaticly, which is really to say it

happens

> without our awareness....and why?....because we are not there to

witness

> because we have *identified with the thinking.*

 

I think you have hit the mark here.

>

> Adi Da mentioned in one of his books (that I read long ago) that it

might

> behoove us to start thinking that we are only skin deep. By saying

this, I think

> he was pointing out to us that "inner focus" is simply the egoic

avoidance of

> our relationship with our condition. This brings me to the second

thing.

>

> When a person typically talks of turning within, it is assumed that

there is a

> serious looking within to find the Self, or the meaning of life and

such. But

> there is also the teaching that says,' all that is, arrises *in*

consciousness.'

> So sometimes I feel as if my self or soul actually is bigger than

and contains

> my body. And funny enough, this feeling tends to ground me nicely

*as* the

> bodymind.

 

This resonates with me also. I have the same experience.

 

Love

Bobby G.

 

 

A great stillness is there ( as if I am not moving while walking)

and

> i am reminded of Sri Ramana's talk about how you never go anywhere

(you

> are always already Here) ...and of course that lovely bit about

putting down

> your bag when you get on the train!

>

> love,

>

> Shawn

[Guest guest]

> > > -I am still trying to comprehend this

> > > I-I thingy, but it must be PRACTICED

> > > right?

> >

> > For me Kartaji, it is simply being in the now instead of lost in

a

> > chain of thoughts.

>

>

> yes, but I don't notice when I go off

> back to mindchatter

 

I don't either.

>

>

>

> > When the chain stops The I is there waiting.

> > When held in the mind The I melts into the heart.

>

> hmmm

Dear Era:

 

Now , The Present, Mindfulness is all there is at this point, when

the I melts into the heart.

That is, there is no thought chain.

This is why I say I identify with the Now. If "I" am the person in

the chain of thoughts

that is created when unmindful, then "I I" must be the one present

when the chain ceases.

>

>

> > When a thought

> > chain starts up again, inner focus is lost and the attention is

> > turned outward towards thoughts of the world.

> >

> > So for me, "II" is identifying with or considering myself as the

Now.

> > That identification stops when the world of thought chains as

created

> > in the mind absorbs the attention.

> >

> > >

> > > I don't think that reading and thinking

> > > will do anything

> > >

> > > I keep on forgetting to be mindful

> > >

> > > I thought of getting a gong-sound

> > > alarm-clock to gong every hour

> > >

> > > or make a commitment that every time

> > > when I walk to my car I'll do it

> > > mindfully

> >

> > That is something I have done a lot of too. I would walk down the

> > street doing my breath control walking zazen and plan how I would

go

> > into a store and remain mindful of each act in the now.

Eventually

> > the mindful became more consistent but it took a while for me.

> >

>

> yes, great I will do this

>

> I see no difference between being in

> the zone absorption mindfulness

>

> in intensity maybe

>

> but me without noticing I fell back

> to mind chatter in sports or doing

> artwork or even cooking when I am

> 100% paying attention of what I am

> doing is easy

>

> the funny thing when I am online

> posting I loose mindfulness, it feels

> as an unreal act

>

>

> I heard from mindfulness practicing

> monks that when they notice that they

> fell out of it they trace it back

> where it happened

>

> lets say I made a deal with myself

> that walking to the store I will

> stay mindful and I notice that by

> that tree the mindchatter started,

> so I have to back to that tree an

> start over and no matter how many

> times it takes..

>

> they say this works

 

It does. I can remember a great revelation for me about this.

during a walking meditation I realized I had lapsed into thinking.

I traced back about four of the little thoughts that had led one to

the other,

and remembered when I had lapsed.

 

I had been about to cross a busy wide street and fear had encroached

on

the meditation. The chain of thoughts had been triggered by

insecutity

and the thoughts themselves had been self-rapproachment type

thoughts.

I conquered the fear of meditation while walking busy streets at

that point

and I did not previously know I even had that fear.

 

Most of the times after that the interruptions were caused by

memories.

I like driving my car and meditating.

 

Love

Bobby G.

[Guest guest]

<Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:

>

> > > > -I am still trying to comprehend this

> > > > I-I thingy, but it must be PRACTICED

> > > > right?

> > >

> > > For me Kartaji, it is simply being in the now instead of lost

in

> a

> > > chain of thoughts.

> >

> >

> > yes, but I don't notice when I go off

> > back to mindchatter

>

> I don't either.

>

> >

> >

> >

> > > When the chain stops The I is there waiting.

> > > When held in the mind The I melts into the heart.

> >

> > hmmm

> Dear Era:

>

> Now , The Present, Mindfulness is all there is at this point, when

> the I melts into the heart.

> That is, there is no thought chain.

> This is why I say I identify with the Now. If "I" am the person

in

> the chain of thoughts

> that is created when unmindful, then "I I" must be the one present

> when the chain ceases.

>

> >

> >

> > > When a thought

> > > chain starts up again, inner focus is lost and the attention

> > > is turned outward towards thoughts of the world.

> > >

> > > So for me, "II" is identifying with or considering myself as

> > > the Now. That identification stops when the world

> > > of thought chains as created

> > > in the mind absorbs the attention.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't think that reading and thinking

> > > > will do anything

> > > >

> > > > I keep on forgetting to be mindful

> > > >

> > > > I thought of getting a gong-sound

> > > > alarm-clock to gong every hour

> > > >

> > > > or make a commitment that every time

> > > > when I walk to my car I'll do it

> > > > mindfully

> > >

> > > That is something I have done a lot of too. I would

> > > walk down the street doing my breath control walking

> > > zazen and plan how I would go

> > > into a store and

> > > remain mindful of each act in the now. Eventually

> > > the mindful became more consistent but it took a while for me.

> > >

> >

> > yes, great I will do this

> >

> > I see no difference between being in

> > the zone absorption mindfulness

> >

> > in intensity maybe

> >

> > but me without noticing I fell back

> > to mind chatter in sports or doing

> > artwork or even cooking when I am

> > 100% paying attention of what I am

> > doing is easy

> >

> > the funny thing when I am online

> > posting I loose mindfulness, it feels

> > as an unreal act

> >

> >

> > I heard from mindfulness practicing

> > monks that when they notice that they

> > fell out of it they trace it back

> > where it happened

> >

> > lets say I made a deal with myself

> > that walking to the store I will

> > stay mindful and I notice that by

> > that tree the mindchatter started,

> > so I have to back to that tree an

> > start over and no matter how many

> > times it takes..

> >

> > they say this works

>

> It does. I can remember a great revelation for me about this.

> during a walking meditation I realized I had lapsed into thinking.

> I traced back about four of the little thoughts that had led one

> to the other, and remembered when I had lapsed.

>

> I had been about to cross a busy wide street and fear had

encroached

> on

> the meditation. The chain of thoughts had been triggered by

> insecutity

> and the thoughts themselves had been self-rapproachment type

> thoughts.

> I conquered the fear of meditation while walking busy streets at

>

 

hmmm I still fear the dethjump in meditation, when leaving the mind

behind, I am taken by grace: mesmerised so I forget the fear, but

than I am not staying aware, just gone until I come back :-(

 

this fear thingy is in all my cells, and since I did not perfect

bhakti I don't trust my master to much :-( thank godness that he

loves me..

> that point

> and I did not previously know I even had that fear.

>

> Most of the times after that the interruptions were caused by

> memories.

> I like driving my car and meditating.

>

> Love

> Bobby G.

 

Bobby I am so happy that you are sharing

 

nowdays I am drawn to the nononsece nondualist, but still loking for

Ramana's Heart-cave

 

I will upload this page I am working on: the physiology of

realization

 

since you know much more of brain waves abd about all, please

correct it

 

Nina posted at an other club, that the medula oblangata is involved

in channeling

 

I never heard this, did you?

 

I would not channel anyone, not even my master because I am scared

to catch some unwanted trait

 

<http://santmat-meditation.net/yoga/realization.html>

[Guest guest]

>

> hmmm I still fear the dethjump in meditation, when leaving the mind

> behind, I am taken by grace: mesmerised so I forget the fear, but

> than I am not staying aware, just gone until I come back :-(

 

I was very fearful for years. I would get to a point in meditation

and some fear of being taken over or that possibly I had been duped

for decades into believing the wrong things would come up and I

would lose the concentration. It would take weeks of climbing back

to the point where I was up against the fear again. Finally after

this happening too many times, I just told myself I was willing to

die to know the truth. When the fear came up as a thought I let go.

It was just that. Another thought. It has not come back.

 

As a child savant you had to have been willing to let go. Someone

may have scared you.

>

> this fear thingy is in all my cells, and since I did not perfect

> bhakti I don't trust my master to much :-( thank godness that he

> loves me..

>

> > that point

> > and I did not previously know I even had that fear.

> >

> > Most of the times after that the interruptions were caused by

> > memories.

> > I like driving my car and meditating.

> >

> > Love

> > Bobby G.

>

> Bobby I am so happy that you are sharing

>

> nowdays I am drawn to the nononsece nondualist, but still loking

for

> Ramana's Heart-cave

>

> I will upload this page I am working on: the physiology of

> realization

>

> since you know much more of brain waves abd about all, please

> correct it

 

I will look at it.

>

> Nina posted at an other club, that the medula oblangata is involved

> in channeling

>

> I never heard this, did you?

 

I don't know about channeling. The other things the brain does are

complex enough. I would see a confusion of memory resulting from

having another person's thoughts in my head.

>

> I would not channel anyone, not even my master because I am scared

> to catch some unwanted trait

 

I catch traits from others all the time anyway. Heh Heh.

Love

Bobby G.

>

> <http://santmat-meditation.net/yoga/realization.html>

[Guest guest]

"texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:

>

> >

> > hmmm I still fear the dethjump in meditation, when leaving the mind

> > behind, I am taken by grace: mesmerised so I forget the fear, but

> > than I am not staying aware, just gone until I come back :-(

>

> I was very fearful for years. I would get to a point in meditation

> and some fear of being taken over or that possibly I had been duped

 

 

 

this is exactly what ran through my

mind, that I sold my soul because I

didn't know better, was fighting my

master and watched how the the dearones absorbed in bhakti passed me fast b=

y

 

this one I got over fast tho the next

hurdle was that at a point I met my

master inside and I was freaked until

than I thought, that I am initiated

into the OM; the life-sustaining

current and I was flying on that wing

 

and noone is needed oh!

 

and he knew it too  and I stagnated

for a year

 

I had to rewrite my believes around

this its hard to be stubborned and

spiritual

 

but the deathjunp thingy is just that

an intense somatic basic fear of

death even after I was shown , that

I'll not dye and can 'come back' I

couldn't go through had to be taken

 

 

> for decades into believing the wrong things would come up and I

> would lose the concentration. It would take weeks of climbing back

> to the point where I was up against the fear again. Finally after

> this happening too many times, I just told myself I was willing to

> die to know the truth. When the fear came up as a thought I let go.

> It was just that. Another thought. It has not come back.

>

> As a child savant you had to have been willing to let go. Someone

> may have scared you.

 

 

yes, before I ran to India do to an

incident one year after my OM intiaton

I left my body and at that time I was

in pitch darkness, I couldn't move

my body but was aware and came out of meditation and went into fear

 

and had the most diffult time to 'come

back': my body, especially my hands did

not fit, my body was to small

 

haha

 

> > this fear thingy is in all my cells, and since I did not perfect

> > bhakti I don't trust my master to much :-( thank godness that he

> > loves me..

> >

> > > that point

> > > and I did not previously know I even had that fear.

> > >

> > > Most of the times after that the interruptions were caused by

> > > memories.

> > > I like driving my car and meditating.

> > >

> > > Love

> > > Bobby G.

> >

> > Bobby I am so happy that you are sharing

> >

> > nowdays I am drawn to the nononsece nondualist, but still looking

> > for Ramana's Heart-cave

> >

> > I will upload this page I am working on: the physiology of

> > realization

> >

> > since you know much more of brain waves abd about all, please

> > correct it

>

> I will look at it.

>

 

thanks

 

> > N posted at an other club, that the medula oblangata is involved

> > in channeling

> >

> > I never heard this, did you?

>

> I don't know about channeling. The other things the brain does are

> complex enough. I would see a confusion of memory resulting from

> having another person's thoughts in my head.

>

> >

> > I would not channel anyone, not even my master because I am scared

> > to catch some unwanted trait

>

> I catch traits from others all the time anyway. Heh Heh.

 

 

I am doing this right now <grin>

 

oh yes, me too I met womderful people

on line to learn from

 

> Love

> Bobby G.

 

Love, Era

 

 

<http://santmat-meditation.net/yoga/realization.html>

[Guest guest]

, "Era" <satkarta7@j...> wrote:

> "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > hmmm I still fear the dethjump in meditation, when leaving the

mind

> > > behind, I am taken by grace: mesmerised so I forget the fear,

but

> > > than I am not staying aware, just gone until I come back :-(

> >

> > I was very fearful for years. I would get to a point in

meditation

> > and some fear of being taken over or that possibly I had been

duped

>

>

>

> this is exactly what ran through my

> mind, that I sold my soul because I

> didn't know better, was fighting my

> master and watched how the the dearones absorbed in bhakti passed

me fast b=

> y

>

> this one I got over fast tho the next

> hurdle was that at a point I met my

> master inside and I was freaked until

> than I thought, that I am initiated

> into the OM; the life-sustaining

> current and I was flying on that wing

>

> and noone is needed oh!

>

> and he knew it too and I stagnated

> for a year

>

> I had to rewrite my believes around

> this its hard to be stubborned and

> spiritual

>

> but the deathjunp thingy is just that

> an intense somatic basic fear of

> death even after I was shown , that

> I'll not dye and can 'come back' I

> couldn't go through had to be taken

>

>

>

> > for decades into believing the wrong things would come up and I

> > would lose the concentration. It would take weeks of climbing

back

> > to the point where I was up against the fear again. Finally after

> > this happening too many times, I just told myself I was willing

to

> > die to know the truth. When the fear came up as a thought I let

go.

> > It was just that. Another thought. It has not come back.

> >

> > As a child savant you had to have been willing to let go.

Someone

> > may have scared you.

>

>

> yes, before I ran to India do to an

> incident one year after my OM intiaton

> I left my body and at that time I was

> in pitch darkness, I couldn't move

> my body but was aware and came out of meditation and went into fear

>

> and had the most diffult time to 'come

> back': my body, especially my hands did

> not fit, my body was to small

>

> haha

>

>

> > > this fear thingy is in all my cells, and since I did not

perfect

> > > bhakti I don't trust my master to much :-( thank godness that

he

> > > loves me..

> > >

> > > > that point

> > > > and I did not previously know I even had that fear.

> > > >

> > > > Most of the times after that the interruptions were caused by

> > > > memories.

> > > > I like driving my car and meditating.

> > > >

> > > > Love

> > > > Bobby G.

> > >

> > > Bobby I am so happy that you are sharing

> > >

> > > nowdays I am drawn to the nononsece nondualist, but still

looking

> > > for Ramana's Heart-cave

> > >

> > > I will upload this page I am working on: the physiology of

> > > realization

> > >

> > > since you know much more of brain waves abd about all, please

> > > correct it

> >

> > I will look at it.

> >

>

> thanks

 

 

Hi Karta:

Your web page is interesting. It is an insight into the way you

think and work on yourself. You have some technical stuff in there

that I have read about but which never stuck. I generally look for

something in me to relate to the names of currents and inner organs

and the like, and if the term does not lead me to something I can

sense about myself it is forgotten. The heart cave is tangible.

 

You quoted:

" Most people who claim to have experienced the Self have not even

taken their minds near to the entrance of the Heart-cave. And even

if the mind does go into the Heart, there is still an 'I' which is

experiencing the bliss of the Self.

 

The true experience of the Self only happens when the mind is

completely absent, either temporarily as in samadhi, or permanently,

as in Self-realization.

 

Both of these experiences are very rare.

 

It is very difficult to make the mind go into the Heart. Mostly it

is too afraid of its own death to even approach the entrance.

 

The mental experiences of peace, bliss and stillness, which devotees

claim to experience usually, take place outside the Heart. They are

all in the mind. People who think that these experiences are the

reality of the Self are only deluding themselves."

 

I consider this entire passage to be misleading. 'Rare experiences'

is a statement of human statistics which has no influence on

individuals. I think I disagree with the ideas or statements about

people in general as they apply to individuals. I would tend to doubt

anything this person said that I was not familiar with.

 

Your speech patterns are very charming (especially when you get

mad). Keep up the good work. Get mad at those that infect others

with fear!

 

Love

Bobby G.

> > > N posted at an other club, that the medula oblangata is

involved

> > > in channeling

> > >

> > > I never heard this, did you?

> >

> > I don't know about channeling. The other things the brain does

are

> > complex enough. I would see a confusion of memory resulting from

> > having another person's thoughts in my head.

> >

> > >

> > > I would not channel anyone, not even my master because I am

scared

> > > to catch some unwanted trait

> >

> > I catch traits from others all the time anyway. Heh Heh.

>

>

> I am doing this right now <grin>

>

> oh yes, me too I met womderful people

> on line to learn from

>

>

> > Love

> > Bobby G.

>

> Love, Era

 

 

>

>

> <http://santmat-meditation.net/yoga/realization.html>

[Guest guest]

> Hi Karta:

> Your web page is interesting. It is an insight into the way you

> think and work on yourself. You have some technical stuff in there

> that I have read about but which never stuck. I generally look for

> something in me to relate to the names of currents and inner organs

> and the like, and if the term does not lead me to something I can

> sense about myself it is forgotten. The heart cave is tangible.

>

> You quoted:

> " Most people who claim to have experienced the Self have not even

> taken their minds near to the entrance of the Heart-cave. And even

> if the mind does go into the Heart, there is still an 'I' which is

> experiencing the bliss of the Self.

>

> The true experience of the Self only happens when the mind is

> completely absent, either temporarily as in samadhi, or permanently,

> as in Self-realization.

>

> Both of these experiences are very rare.

>

> It is very difficult to make the mind go into the Heart. Mostly it

> is too afraid of its own death to even approach the entrance.

>

> The mental experiences of peace, bliss and stillness, which devotees

> claim to experience usually, take place outside the Heart. They are

> all in the mind. People who think that these experiences are the

> reality of the Self are only deluding themselves."

>

> I consider this entire passage to be misleading. 'Rare experiences'

> is a statement of human statistics which has no influence on

> individuals. I think I disagree with the ideas or statements about

> people in general as they apply to individuals. I would tend to doubt

> anything this person said that I was not familiar with.

>

 

 

hi Bobby,

 

 

you are lucky because you were able

to grasp the nondual decades ago and practiced vichara, I am new at this

 

the nononsense advaita with the do

nothing model is great and I like to

read about it

 

and if I would have been able to

perfect the bakhti yoga than I would

be able to relax in the trust and in

the surrender to god's will and just

BE from the ajna and my hara acting in

unison with god's will

 

but it did not happen, my master is

in the dual system of god and evil

and I got drawn into advaita and now

I am going at it alone

 

and I am already 'doing' and have been 'doing' so for me its to late to realize

and relax with the donothing thingy

 

I don't see, that without meditation

without a vigorous practice of the *dye-daily" state: to develop the

courage and the knowhow how to leave

the mind behind, to learn and practice

how can it be behind left behind and

stay conscious; this I havn't

accomplished yet

 

and maybe be able to reach the heart-cave

 

 

 

> Your speech patterns are very charming (especially when you get

> mad). Keep up the good work. Get mad at those that infect others

> with fear!

>

 

thanks Bobby, I am sort of lonely now

banned across all the nondual forums

<grin>

 

thanks for all your love and time

 

thanks

> Love

> Bobby G.

 

 

..

 

 

..

 

<http://santmat-meditation.net/yoga/realization.html>

[Guest guest]

Dear Era,

> and if I would have been able to

> perfect the bakhti yoga than I would

> be able to relax in the trust and in

> the surrender to god's will and just

> BE from the ajna and my hara acting in

> unison with god's will

>

> but it did not happen, my master is

> in the dual system of god and evil

> and I got drawn into advaita and now

> I am going at it alone

 

You are lucky to discover that you are "going it

alone". EveryONE is "going it alone"; but they just

don't know it. You are your own "master". Be that!!

 

Love,

 

michael

 

 

 

Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard

http://antispam./whatsnewfree

[Guest guest]

, Michael Bowes <rmichaelbowes> wrote:

> Dear Era,

>

> > and if I would have been able to

> > perfect the bakhti yoga than I would

> > be able to relax in the trust and in

> > the surrender to god's will and just

> > BE from the ajna and my hara acting in

> > unison with god's will

> >

> > but it did not happen, my master is

> > in the dual system of god and evil

> > and I got drawn into advaita and now

> > I am going at it alone

>

> You are lucky to discover that you are "going it

> alone". EveryONE is "going it alone"; but they just

> don't know it. You are your own "master". Be that!!

>

> Love,

>

> michael

>

 

yes, thank you Michael

 

love, Era