What is a Guru?

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

One of my gurus was an ant...A Real Guru or dispeller of ignorance

is only ever a Jivanmukta. For the Guru is God.

The great Gurus like Ramana are bodily names only. If they are still

around in pictures and astral realms etc etc----then they are not

Jivanmuktas or Gurus.

Even though this site is dedicated to Ramana, much of the post

betray a lack of understanding of his teachings. This may not be a

bad thing for this site is eclectic and general with all levels of

awareness represented.

However there are certain truths we cannot avoid.

 

There is no Ramana at any level, anymore--it was a body name only.

The Caitanya Kutastha or universal Christ consciousness may be given

a name if one wishes, but it is only a name.

 

The mind at even the lower human level can operate subconsciously

and produce results, manifestations, stigmata, vibhutti, amritam,

hypnosis, transference of thoughts etc etc........As Ramakrishna

Paramahamsa said these siddhis are just Rubbish! You may put any

interpretation on it you desire.

 

One doesn't need a picture to bow down before, or to worship dead

teachers or Gurus. Go within---'Who am I?' is the teaching not

worshipping images. Which are all external.

 

Here is a piece I wrote.

 

Psychic Attacks. Tricks and relative reality in the mind.

 

 

On one particular occasion I was working as a portrait photographer

in the Queensland Bush. I had taken a team of canvassers and myself

to Mt. Isa, en route Darwin. The Isa is a large mining town in a

semi-arid region of Queensland. I quite liked it there for there was

a large Irish Club that I was a member of and business was good in

the town.

 

Amongst my crew was a New Zealander, a Pake Ha, or white man. He was

really hitching a ride to Darwin, in order to go on "the dole". He

told the others that he was a witch, and I didn't take much notice

at the time. I poo-pooed this and of course put myself in his bad

books. I was to regret my cynicism and dis-belief for he was pretty

strange anyway and didn't seem to approve of our business either.

 

One particular morning I noticed that my door was ajar and I had a

hazy recollection of two people in my room. It was the witch and

another fellow a young Scottish Immigrant, his friend.I thought it a

strange dream and I dismissed it. Later in the day a few of my

canvassers quit, including one with a car. So I had to go and rent a

car. Whilst I was parking, the young friend of our witch asked me

how my legs were. I told him that they were fine but then I noticed

that they were getting weak below the knees. I thought I must have a

vitamin defficiency so I bought some mult-vitamins and had a meal.

 

As it happened I notice an old Aborigine woman, whose photos I had

taken, staring at me from over the road. She could see something I

could not and I would never find out what she saw, for years. I took

many Aboriginal Portraits and many were on credit. The Aboringines

always paid me, the whites, on credit, on the other hand invariably

did not. This was the opposite of what I was told to expect. Anyway

my legs were not getting better and I needed the car to get around.

 

The weakness was now up to my knees, a very strange feeling indeed.

I decided to go into town to the Irish Club and have a beer and a

chat. As I started out I felt a bolt of energy go through me and

found myself saying " l Iove God,I love God," a most unusual thing

for me to say .After this my legs began to strengthen but I didn't

associate it at the time. I just thought the multi-vitamins were

working. I kept the "Divine Experience" though and it started me

thinking again about God. I still didn't go to Church though. About

a year later I made a return to religious, if not spiritual enquiry

and it no doubt started here in Mt.Isa. It was still a Christian

oriented path though and I was reading the Bible and listening to

prophecies.

 

A few years later when I was into the Huna and Hawaiian Mysticism I

noticed something that shocked me. I was reading one of Max Freedom

Long's books on the Huna and I came across a chapter describing how

the Kahunas cursed people. I then remembered the witch in Mt.Isa. He

said that he had been taught by the Maori Tofungas, Kahuna in Maori.

I won't describe the method here but I realised that I had been

cursed, Anana,and that my life had been in danger. I had been

attacked by familiar spirits or thoughtforms, who would have

eventually eaten up my energy or mana.

 

The energy bolt that went through me was a Divine Intervention of my

Higher Self or Kundalini, and probably saved me from an illness or

worse. I haven't had a problem since, although I still have the

memory of it. The Buddha said if you don't accept a present from

someone it stays with the giver. So put white light around oneself

and refuse to accept the present, it will go back to whence it came.

That is how to protect oneself from these attacks plus prayer is

also a help.

 

One day, many years later, I was talking to Charlie T, in Vancouver,

and he narrated a very similar experience to me. It seems that he

had been working on the oil-rigs for a Singapore company and was

making very good wages. His supervisor was a corrupt ex-cop and

demanded bribes for contractual renewals. He was demanding quite a

few hundred U.S. dollars and Charlie refused to pay. Charlie went

direct to the company instead and this enraged the supervisor. Some

time later Charlie became quite ill and lost all energy from his

body and ended up on a respirator. How Charlie described it to me,

it started in his legs and then worked it's way up his body. After

recovering a little, a Malaysian who had yogic siddhis, did a

cleansing on him. He told Charlie that he had been cursed by a dark,

evil, witchdoctor.. It seemed the energy drained from Charlie's body

from the feet upwards and weakened his whole system as it moved up

his body. Eventually it progressed to his throat area, causing great

pain, as it moved from the lower chakra to his vital organs. This

process usually takes three days, I was attacked for only one day.

 

A lady told Charlie that he had been cursed by the supervisor on the

rigs, who had gone to an evil yogi in Thailand, and paid him to

curse Charlie to a painful lingering death. This was so similar to

my story I was sure of what happened to me. It seems "evil mystics"

use" thought forms" and captive or familiar spirits to curse you.

These entities feed on your energy, prana or mana, starting at your

feet and then progressively and aggressively work up your body

destroying you. Charlie was given the opportunity to send the curse

back to the curser but didn't bother now he was well. Also he was a

spiritual person and didn't want to cause harm. In my case I did

eventually forgive the Tofunga, or Dark Witch.

 

So one has to be so careful, some of these "left-hand Yogis". That

is why one has to be so careful who one is listening to or

associating with.

 

One of my own daughters also had a problem with spirit oppression,

and she tried spiritual teachers, minor gurus and everything but

nothing worked. They even were pulling her hair and terrorising her.

Eventually she got fed up and told them that if they didn't stop

bothering her she would get help and that they would be stuck on the

lower planes forever. Once the fear was gone so were the oppressions.

 

ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

Dear Tony,

 

Please check out the well-known photo that I have

attached to this post.

 

Love,

 

michael

 

--- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote:

SNIP

>

> One doesn't need a picture to bow down before, or to

> worship dead

> teachers or Gurus. Go within---'Who am I?' is the

> teaching not

> worshipping images. Which are all external.

>

 

SNIP

 

 

 

 

 

Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./signingbonus

Attachment: (image/pjpeg) Ramana with Statue.jpg [not stored]

[Guest guest]

Tony,

this is a fascinating tale.

I have been dismissive of the existence of "spiritual powers" since I

was a child, but now I am very agnostic.

Quite possibly there are "evil" spirits, and spiritual powers.

and quite possibly bliss-producing spirits and spiritual powers.

And quite possibly there are those, and I have "Osho" Rajneesh in

mind, who have some kind of handle

on bliss, and the transmission thereof, but are still exploitative swine.

But Bliss comes and goes. It is not the real thing.

The real is that which doesn't come and doesn't go.

Warm regards

Warwick

PS What does "ONS" mean?

-

Tony OClery

Sunday, January 18, 2004 5:13 AM

What is a Guru?

Namaste,One of my gurus was an ant...A Real Guru or dispeller of

ignorance is only ever a Jivanmukta. For the Guru is God.The great

Gurus like Ramana are bodily names only. If they are still around in

pictures and astral realms etc etc----then they are not Jivanmuktas

or Gurus.Even though this site is dedicated to Ramana, much of the

post betray a lack of understanding of his teachings. This may not be

a bad thing for this site is eclectic and general with all levels of

awareness represented.However there are certain truths we cannot

avoid.There is no Ramana at any level, anymore--it was a body name

only.The Caitanya Kutastha or universal Christ consciousness may be

given a name if one wishes, but it is only a name.The mind at even

the lower human level can operate subconsciously and produce results,

manifestations, stigmata, vibhutti, amritam, hypnosis, transference of

thoughts etc etc........As Ramakrishna Paramahamsa said these siddhis

are just Rubbish! You may put any interpretation on it you

desire.One doesn't need a picture to bow down before, or to worship

dead teachers or Gurus. Go within---'Who am I?' is the teaching not

worshipping images. Which are all external. Here is a piece I

wrote.Psychic Attacks. Tricks and relative reality in the mind.On

one particular occasion I was working as a portrait photographer in

the Queensland Bush. I had taken a team of canvassers and myself to

Mt. Isa, en route Darwin. The Isa is a large mining town in a

semi-arid region of Queensland. I quite liked it there for there was

a large Irish Club that I was a member of and business was good in

the town.Amongst my crew was a New Zealander, a Pake Ha, or white

man. He was really hitching a ride to Darwin, in order to go on "the

dole". He told the others that he was a witch, and I didn't take much

notice at the time. I poo-pooed this and of course put myself in his

bad books. I was to regret my cynicism and dis-belief for he was

pretty strange anyway and didn't seem to approve of our business

either.One particular morning I noticed that my door was ajar and I

had a hazy recollection of two people in my room. It was the witch

and another fellow a young Scottish Immigrant, his friend.I thought

it a strange dream and I dismissed it. Later in the day a few of my

canvassers quit, including one with a car. So I had to go and rent a

car. Whilst I was parking, the young friend of our witch asked me how

my legs were. I told him that they were fine but then I noticed that

they were getting weak below the knees. I thought I must have a

vitamin defficiency so I bought some mult-vitamins and had a meal.As

it happened I notice an old Aborigine woman, whose photos I had

taken, staring at me from over the road. She could see something I

could not and I would never find out what she saw, for years. I took

many Aboriginal Portraits and many were on credit. The Aboringines

always paid me, the whites, on credit, on the other hand invariably

did not. This was the opposite of what I was told to expect. Anyway

my legs were not getting better and I needed the car to get

around.The weakness was now up to my knees, a very strange feeling

indeed. I decided to go into town to the Irish Club and have a beer

and a chat. As I started out I felt a bolt of energy go through me

and found myself saying " l Iove God,I love God," a most unusual

thing for me to say .After this my legs began to strengthen but I

didn't associate it at the time. I just thought the multi-vitamins

were working. I kept the "Divine Experience" though and it started me

thinking again about God. I still didn't go to Church though. About a

year later I made a return to religious, if not spiritual enquiry and

it no doubt started here in Mt.Isa. It was still a Christian oriented

path though and I was reading the Bible and listening to prophecies.A

few years later when I was into the Huna and Hawaiian Mysticism I

noticed something that shocked me. I was reading one of Max Freedom

Long's books on the Huna and I came across a chapter describing how

the Kahunas cursed people. I then remembered the witch in Mt.Isa. He

said that he had been taught by the Maori Tofungas, Kahuna in Maori.

I won't describe the method here but I realised that I had been

cursed, Anana,and that my life had been in danger. I had been

attacked by familiar spirits or thoughtforms, who would have

eventually eaten up my energy or mana.The energy bolt that went

through me was a Divine Intervention of my Higher Self or Kundalini,

and probably saved me from an illness or worse. I haven't had a

problem since, although I still have the memory of it. The Buddha

said if you don't accept a present from someone it stays with the

giver. So put white light around oneself and refuse to accept the

present, it will go back to whence it came. That is how to protect

oneself from these attacks plus prayer is also a help.One day, many

years later, I was talking to Charlie T, in Vancouver, and he

narrated a very similar experience to me. It seems that he had been

working on the oil-rigs for a Singapore company and was making very

good wages. His supervisor was a corrupt ex-cop and demanded bribes

for contractual renewals. He was demanding quite a few hundred U.S.

dollars and Charlie refused to pay. Charlie went direct to the

company instead and this enraged the supervisor. Some time later

Charlie became quite ill and lost all energy from his body and ended

up on a respirator. How Charlie described it to me, it started in his

legs and then worked it's way up his body. After recovering a little,

a Malaysian who had yogic siddhis, did a cleansing on him. He told

Charlie that he had been cursed by a dark, evil, witchdoctor.. It

seemed the energy drained from Charlie's body from the feet upwards

and weakened his whole system as it moved up his body. Eventually it

progressed to his throat area, causing great pain, as it moved from

the lower chakra to his vital organs. This process usually takes

three days, I was attacked for only one day.A lady told Charlie that

he had been cursed by the supervisor on the rigs, who had gone to an

evil yogi in Thailand, and paid him to curse Charlie to a painful

lingering death. This was so similar to my story I was sure of what

happened to me. It seems "evil mystics" use" thought forms" and

captive or familiar spirits to curse you. These entities feed on your

energy, prana or mana, starting at your feet and then progressively

and aggressively work up your body destroying you. Charlie was given

the opportunity to send the curse back to the curser but didn't

bother now he was well. Also he was a spiritual person and didn't

want to cause harm. In my case I did eventually forgive the Tofunga,

or Dark Witch.So one has to be so careful, some of these "left-hand

Yogis". That is why one has to be so careful who one is listening to

or associating with.One of my own daughters also had a problem with

spirit oppression, and she tried spiritual teachers, minor gurus and

everything but nothing worked. They even were pulling her hair and

terrorising her. Eventually she got fed up and told them that if they

didn't stop bothering her she would get help and that they would be

stuck on the lower planes forever. Once the fear was gone so were the

oppressions.ONS..Tony.

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[Guest guest]

, "Warwick Wakefield"

<formandsubstance@t...> wrote:

> Tony,

>

> this is a fascinating tale.

>

> I have been dismissive of the existence of "spiritual powers"

since I was a child, but now I am very agnostic.

> Quite possibly there are "evil" spirits, and spiritual powers.

> and quite possibly bliss-producing spirits and spiritual powers.

>

> And quite possibly there are those, and I have "Osho" Rajneesh in

mind, who have some kind of handle

> on bliss, and the transmission thereof, but are still exploitative

swine.

>

> But Bliss comes and goes. It is not the real thing.

> The real is that which doesn't come and doesn't go.

>

> Warm regards

>

> Warwick

>

> PS What does "ONS" mean?

 

Namaste Warwick,

 

I have lots of tales like this but I don't usually give them much

attention these days. I have a ghost that lives in my house, she is

the first owner and her name is Martha. I can see her energy but not

as clear as my daughters can. She is harmless so it doesn't worry

me, we are surrounded by 'spirits' all the time.

This arose because a certain post mentioned a child being punched in

his third eye and being angry about it. Well there lies the tale, it

caused an angry response so is suspect. This kind of belief or trust

leads to people being led down the garden path by frauds like sai

baba and others instead of going within. I only ever speak from my

own experience. On my website I have some old files you might find

interesting.

http://www.geocities.com/aoclery

 

In the end I trust Ramana for how he lived and what he taught,

without any surreptitious commercialism. ...Om Namah Sivaya...Tony.

[Guest guest]

, Michael Bowes

<rmichaelbowes> wrote:

> Dear Tony,

>

> Please check out the well-known photo that I have

> attached to this post.

>

> Love,

>

> michael

>

> --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote:

> SNIP

> >

> > One doesn't need a picture to bow down before, or to

> > worship dead

> > teachers or Gurus. Go within---'Who am I?' is the

> > teaching not

> > worshipping images. Which are all external.

 

Namaste,

 

Gurus will show by example and even play out prarabda karma, but

that is all to do with different levels of awareness in the

audience. Ramana also says that Hinduism etc is not necessary...just

depends on the audience........ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

Tony wroteIn the end I trust Ramana for how he lived and what he

taught, without any surreptitious commercialism. ...Om Namah

Sivaya...Tony.Namaste I am in agreement with what you say about Ramana. He was the shining light of all shining lights.

Perhaps though if he lived in this time commercialism would have hi-jacked him.

Even if his devotees wrote books on his teachings the publisher would

have gone for maximum return and of course many books have been

written and many thousand if not millions bought on the teachings

that flowed through him. The guru "doesn't mind" the books being

sold/bought, though action may take place if inaccuracies are found

in the manuscripts.

Maharaj objected to some things in "I am that" before publication,

which incidentally is the most expensive book I have ever bought.

Regards Chris

[Guest guest]

Ps

-

Namaste I am in agreement with what you say about Ramana. He was the shining light of all shining lights.

 

 

Dear to my mind there must be a shining light at this time God allways

provides. There is allways the genuine live guru to follow.

Who would you recommend worthy of listening to at this moment, if any one.?

Regards Chris

[Guest guest]

Dear Chris

if you found the "truth" it makes "tick".....

after this much "work" has to be done....

living according to your inner truth....

why looking for someone "else"

michael bindel

>"AnneChris"

> >

>Re: Re: What is a Guru? >Sun, 18 Jan

2004 08:28:15 -0000 > >Ps > - >

Namaste Tony > I am in agreement with what you say about Ramana. He

was the shining light of all shining lights. > > > DearTony > to

my mind there must be a shining light at this time God allways

provides. There is allways the genuine live guru to follow. > Who

would you recommend worthy of listening to at this moment, if any

one.? > Regards Chris MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service:

2 months FREE*

[Guest guest]

, "Tony OClery" <aoclery>

wrote:

>

> The mind at even the lower human level can operate subconsciously

> and produce results, manifestations, stigmata, vibhutti, amritam,

> hypnosis, transference of thoughts etc etc........As Ramakrishna

> Paramahamsa said these siddhis are just Rubbish! You may put any

> interpretation on it you desire.

 

Exactly! See below:

 

> Psychic Attacks. Tricks and relative reality in the mind.

> One particular morning I noticed that my door was ajar and I had a

> hazy recollection of two people in my room. It was the witch and

> another fellow a young Scottish Immigrant, his friend.I thought it

a

> strange dream and I dismissed it. Later in the day a few of my

> canvassers quit, including one with a car. So I had to go and rent

a

> car. Whilst I was parking, the young friend of our witch asked me

> how my legs were. I told him that they were fine but then I noticed

> that they were getting weak below the knees. I thought I must have

a

> vitamin defficiency so I bought some mult-vitamins and had a meal.

 

 

Please note that your legs were fine until the friend of the witch

asked about them. You were hypnotized! In the form of a suggestion

for you to interpret.

 

>The Buddha said if you don't accept a present from

> someone it stays with the giver. So put white light around oneself

> and refuse to accept the present, it will go back to whence it

came.

> That is how to protect oneself from these attacks plus prayer is

> also a help.

>

 

When the friend of the witch asked about your legs, you accepted this

as a present (day possible curse). Probably going on all

subconsciously.

 

> So one has to be so careful, some of these "left-hand Yogis". That

> is why one has to be so careful who one is listening to or

> associating with.

 

Exactly.

> One of my own daughters also had a problem with spirit oppression,

> and she tried spiritual teachers, minor gurus and everything but

> nothing worked. They even were pulling her hair and terrorising

her.

> Eventually she got fed up and told them that if they didn't stop

> bothering her she would get help and that they would be stuck on

the

> lower planes forever. Once the fear was gone so were the

oppressions.

 

 

Glad she eliminated the problem.... she sounds very wise!

 

Thanks for your sharing of these stories.

 

Love,

xxxtg

[Guest guest]

, "MICHAEL BINDEL"

<michael_bindel@h...> wrote:

>

 

Namaste,

 

I am not qualified to recommend a Guru. The Guru will reveal itself

to you if required. In the meantime there are Gurus and Gurus.

Ramana says any Guru that exhorts to more activity isn't a true

master, for activity is creation and the antithesis of what a Guru

is all about-----leading you out of it not further into it.

However some people especially westerners who have active/rajasic

minds, need to do social work or seva to reduce the ego. This is

their own need not the recipient or God's.

God is the electricity of creation not the machine of it. It is a

wound up clock the ticks away by itself on the fuel of karma. God

doesn't do anything, hence the need for interference in the form of

Gurus...and even that is karma.

If you want a suggestion from me--------go within and meditatie and

Who am I? yourself..plus read scripture like the Gita

etc.....ONS..Tony. Remember we cannot escape our prarabda.

[Guest guest]

, "teegee555" <Teegee555@a...>

wrote:

> , "Tony OClery"

<aoclery>

> wrote:

> >

> > The mind at even the lower human level can operate

subconsciously

> > and produce results, manifestations, stigmata, vibhutti,

amritam,

> > hypnosis, transference of thoughts etc etc........As Ramakrishna

> > Paramahamsa said these siddhis are just Rubbish! You may put

any

> > interpretation on it you desire.

>

> Exactly! See below:

>

>

> > Psychic Attacks. Tricks and relative reality in the mind.

> > One particular morning I noticed that my door was ajar and I had

a

> > hazy recollection of two people in my room. It was the witch and

> > another fellow a young Scottish Immigrant, his friend.I thought

it

> a

> > strange dream and I dismissed it. Later in the day a few of my

> > canvassers quit, including one with a car. So I had to go and

rent

> a

> > car. Whilst I was parking, the young friend of our witch asked

me

> > how my legs were. I told him that they were fine but then I

noticed

> > that they were getting weak below the knees. I thought I must

have

> a

> > vitamin defficiency so I bought some mult-vitamins and had a

meal.

>

>

> Please note that your legs were fine until the friend of the witch

> asked about them. You were hypnotized! In the form of a

suggestion

> for you to interpret.

 

\Namaste,

 

No my legs were already feeling strange before that. I just had

directed my mind to the problem. Yes in a way it was hypnosis whilst

I slept---but more a planting of thoughtforms and or spirit helpers.

This is what the Aborigine woman saw around me, they are continually

sensitive people....ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

Dear Michael

this between us.

Im not looking for a guru, dont feel I need to follow anymore.

Its just that Tony has basically denied that Eckhart and Ramesh are

enlightened so I am endevouring to find out is any living soul fits

his criteria for enlighenment. I think he is mistaken in this

criteria that the sage must be totally pure, celebate, allways loving

a paragon of virtue or whatever else he may have in mind

Regartds Chris

-

MICHAEL BINDEL

Sunday, January 18, 2004 9:43 AM

Re: Re: What is a Guru?

Dear Chris

if you found the "truth" it makes "tick".....

after this much "work" has to be done....

living according to your inner truth....

why looking for someone "else"

michael bindel

>"AnneChris"

> >

>Re: Re: What is a Guru? >Sun, 18 Jan

2004 08:28:15 -0000 > >Ps > - >

Namaste Tony > I am in agreement with what you say about Ramana. He

was the shining light of all shining lights. > > > DearTony > to

my mind there must be a shining light at this time God allways

provides. There is allways the genuine live guru to follow. > Who

would you recommend worthy of listening to at this moment, if any

one.? > Regards Chris

[Guest guest]

, "AnneChris" <am009a8716@b...>

wrote:

> Dear Michael

> this between us.

> Im not looking for a guru, dont feel I need to follow anymore.

> Its just that Tony has basically denied that Eckhart and Ramesh

are enlightened so I am endevouring to find out is any living soul

fits his criteria for enlighenment. I think he is mistaken in this

criteria that the sage must be totally pure, celebate, allways

loving a paragon of virtue or whatever else he may have in mind

> Regartds Chris

>

Namaste Chris,

 

Some jivanmuktas were householders, and married. Check what Ramana

says on this. I don't know whether any living soul is a jivanmukta

although some may have had some samadhis. A person who isn't a

jivanmukta isn't really a full Guru........ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

Dear have read "Be as you are" countless times not saying it has

all sunk in but I have the essence of it. Memory is not as good as it

was though

jivanmuktas is such an Indian term it allmost disbars any other race from realization.

 

I am reading a book "Ask The Awakened The negative Way" by WEI WU WEI

actually he was an Irishman but its a facinating book.

Ramesh maintained that between him and Maharaj he was driven into

enlightenment. My own way of expressing it.

 

You would enjoy it thoroughly. It is a bit deep for me.

 

Another thing I am not too clear on.

It is my belief that.

Either there is enlightenment or there is just a passing experience

which missleads the person into believing that enlighten ment has

taken place.

I believe that either the person is enlightened or not there is no

degree of enlightenment though it may well deepen after the event.

Possibly thats why Ramana spent two years basically in a state of

bliss unable to look after himself, incidently Eckhart also went

through a two year priod of no home no relationships just sitting on

a park bench in a state of bliss.

 

I believe if true awakening has hapened there is no person left to

recross the river back into the "normal" unawakened state.

Could you give any one clear this up for me.

 

Namaste Chris

[Guest guest]

Dear Tony and ALL,

 

Tony: I know that you didn't actually address this to

me; but I would like to ad a comment.

 

--- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote:

SNIP

> Namaste Chris,

>

> Some jivanmuktas were householders, and married.

> Check what Ramana

> says on this. I don't know whether any living soul

> is a jivanmukta

> although some may have had some samadhis. A person

> who isn't a

> jivanmukta isn't really a full

> Guru........ONS..Tony.

 

There is nothing but the Guru. Nothing at all exists

except for the Guru. When a person sees this, then

ALL is WELL.

 

Love,

 

michael

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Michael wrote...

There is nothing but the Guru. Nothing at all existsexcept for the

Guru. When a person sees this, thenALL is WELL.

Yes, Michael...

I'm with you...

He is, too...

http://www.omshaantih.com/Gurudev.htm

Love and snowy kisses,

Joyce

[Guest guest]

, "AnneChris" <am009a8716@b...>

wrote:

> Dear > have read "Be as you are" countless times not saying it

has all sunk in but I have the essence of it. Memory is not as good

as it was though

> jivanmuktas is such an Indian term it allmost disbars any other

race from realization.

>

> I am reading a book "Ask The Awakened The negative Way" by WEI WU

WEI actually he was an Irishman but its a facinating book.

> Ramesh maintained that between him and Maharaj he was driven into

enlightenment. My own way of expressing it.

>

> You would enjoy it thoroughly. It is a bit deep for me.

>

> Another thing I am not too clear on.

> It is my belief that.

> Either there is enlightenment or there is just a passing

experience which missleads the person into believing that enlighten

ment has taken place.

> I believe that either the person is enlightened or not there is no

degree of enlightenment though it may well deepen after the event.

> Possibly thats why Ramana spent two years basically in a state of

bliss unable to look after himself, incidently Eckhart also went

through a two year priod of no home no relationships just sitting on

a park bench in a state of bliss.

>

> I believe if true awakening has hapened there is no person left to

recross the river back into the "normal" unawakened state.

> Could you give any one clear this up for me.

>

> Namaste Chris

 

Namaste Chris,

 

If you check Ramana you will see that there are different stages of

Samadhi, different stages--some with attributes some with no

attributes some short lived and one permanent. Any Samadhi that

includes sustained bliss is not enlightenment for bliss is an

attribute and experienced. So many of these guys have a temporary

experience and then think they are enlightened and go out and teach

the world. Your last statement is the truth..........ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

, Michael Bowes

<rmichaelbowes> wrote:

> Dear Tony and ALL,

>

> Tony: I know that you didn't actually address this to

> me; but I would like to ad a comment.

>

> --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote:

> SNIP

>

> > Namaste Chris,

> >

> > Some jivanmuktas were householders, and married.

> > Check what Ramana

> > says on this. I don't know whether any living soul

> > is a jivanmukta

> > although some may have had some samadhis. A person

> > who isn't a

> > jivanmukta isn't really a full

> > Guru........ONS..Tony.

>

> There is nothing but the Guru. Nothing at all exists

> except for the Guru. When a person sees this, then

> ALL is WELL.

>

> Love,

>

> michael

 

Namaste, M,

Of course that is a given, but here on discussion groups we are

mixing apples and oranges, for as Sankara says--it is real whilst

one is in it.........ONS...Tony

[Guest guest]

Thanks Joyce. I got a big chuckle out of that. And

that's what life is all about :-)

 

Warmest regards, (I hope that doesn't make the guru

melt :-) )

 

michael

 

 

--- Lady Joyce <shaantih wrote:

> Michael wrote...

>

> There is nothing but the Guru. Nothing at all

> exists

> except for the Guru. When a person sees this, then

> ALL is WELL.

>

> Yes, Michael...

> I'm with you...

> He is, too...

>

> http://www.omshaantih.com/Gurudev.htm

>

> Love and snowy kisses,

>

> Joyce

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I hope I'm not interupting...I know you were asking someone else but I

thought that I'd give some input.

You had wrote:

( I believe if true awakening has hapened there is no person left to

recross the river back into the "normal" unawakened state. Could you

give any one clear this up for me.)

In one of my Zen books there is a passage that describes that the Many

are One and the One is many. In conventional terms, it says that the

Many return to the One (the illusion of death). Where does the One

return? According to the book, the One returns to the Many. If people

are not returning from the One back to the Many then I think that

their ego is attached to the "bliss" (judging it to be good/bad and

developing a desire to remain). Since samsara (conventional universe)

is created by ego (I do, I am, I go) which causes separation between

subject and object (god and man, man and computer, compassion and

intolerance, wisdom and ignorance etc.), than the ego, if still

labeling experiences as good or bad would think that there was a

coming and going (opposites thinking) across a river. Maybe some

individuals have taken their meditation too far without developing a

more flexible identity where the ego was not so

dominant and prone too "attaching" to a certain state and so they

place their mind in a place that they "label" as much better than

samsara so they get stuck because they never gave up measuring,

labelling, comparing, judging....

Love,

Dawn

Tony OClery <aoclery > wrote:

, "AnneChris" <am009a8716@b...>

wrote:> Dear Tony> have read "Be as you are" countless

times not saying it has all sunk in but I have the essence of it.

Memory is not as good as it was though> jivanmuktas is such an Indian

term it allmost disbars any other race from realization.> > I am

reading a book "Ask The Awakened The negative Way" by WEI WU WEI

actually he was an Irishman but its a facinating book.> Ramesh

maintained that between him and Maharaj he was driven into

enlightenment. My own way of expressing it.> > You would enjoy it

thoroughly. It is a bit deep for me.> > Another thing I am not too

clear on.> It is my belief that.> Either there is enlightenment or

there

is just a passing experience which missleads the person into believing

that enlighten ment has taken place. > I believe that either the

person is enlightened or not there is no degree of enlightenment

though it may well deepen after the event.> Possibly thats why Ramana

spent two years basically in a state of bliss unable to look after

himself, incidently Eckhart also went through a two year priod of no

home no relationships just sitting on a park bench in a state of

bliss.> > I believe if true awakening has hapened there is no person

left to recross the river back into the "normal" unawakened state.

> Could you give any one clear this up for me.> > Namaste ChrisNamaste

Chris,If you check Ramana you will see that there are different stages

of Samadhi, different stages--some with attributes some with no

attributes some short lived and one permanent. Any Samadhi that

includes sustained bliss is not enlightenment for bliss is an

attribute and experienced. So many of these guys have a temporary

experience and then think they are enlightened and go out and teach

the world. Your last statement is the

truth..........ONS..Tony./join

"Love itself is

the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam"

by Suri Nagamma To visit your group on the web, go

to:/ To from

this group, send an email

to: Your use of

Groups is subject to the

 

Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

[Guest guest]

If you check Ramana you will see that there are different stages of

Samadhi, different stages--some with attributes some with no

attributes some short lived and one permanent. Any Samadhi that

includes sustained bliss is not enlightenment for bliss is an

attribute and experienced. So many of these guys have a temporary

experience and then think they are enlightened and go out and teach

the world. Your last statement is the truth..........ONS..Tony.Thats

why I believe that Eckhart is enlightened because he said the same as

you ie Experiences (including bliss)come and go they are not

enlightenment. What he is left with is a deep seated peace regardless

of situations and a silent mind and thats some thirty years after

awakening so no "Flash in the pan".

Thanks Chris.

[Guest guest]

Dear I agree with you.

Michael Bindel

>"AnneChris"

> >

>Re: Re: What is a Guru? >Mon, 19 Jan

2004 18:20:25 -0000 > > > . So many of these guys have a temporary

> experience and then think they are enlightened and go out and teach

> the world.

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*.

[Guest guest]

BECAUSE THE GURU and everything can be the Guru IS THE LORD AND THE LORD IS

I AM THAT I AM

may you feel the grace

michael bindel

>"Lady Joyce"

> >

> Re: What is a Guru? >Mon, 19 Jan 2004

10:47:15 -0500 > >Michael wrote... > >There is nothing but the Guru.

Nothing at all exists >except for the Guru. When a person sees this,

then >ALL is WELL. > >Yes, Michael... >I'm with you... >He is, too...

> >http://www.omshaantih.com/Gurudev.htm > >Love and snowy kisses, >

>Joyce The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

[Guest guest]

, "AnneChris" <am009a8716@b...>

wrote:

>

> If you check Ramana you will see that there are different stages

of

> Samadhi, different stages--some with attributes some with no

> attributes some short lived and one permanent. Any Samadhi that

> includes sustained bliss is not enlightenment for bliss is an

> attribute and experienced. So many of these guys have a

temporary

> experience and then think they are enlightened and go out and

teach

> the world. Your last statement is the truth..........ONS..Tony.

>

> Thats why I believe that Eckhart is enlightened because he said

the same as you ie Experiences (including bliss)come and go they are

not enlightenment. What he is left with is a deep seated peace

regardless of situations and a silent mind and thats some thirty

years after awakening so no "Flash in the pan".

> Thanks Chris.

 

Namaste,

 

I said the same thing as Eckhart, yet I am not enlightened. I also

can go into yoga nidra and I'm still not enlightened. I'm glad Tolle

can help you reading is good, but I'm not convinced he is a

jivanmukta, but someone who has had a samadhi........ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,I said the same thing as Eckhart, yet I am not enlightened. I

also can go into yoga nidra and I'm still not enlightened. I'm glad

Tolle can help you reading is good, but I'm not convinced he is a

jivanmukta, but someone who has had a samadhi........ONS..Tony.

Namaste it dosnt matter ultimately what I believe. I find that

Eckharts teachings has brought a lot of understanding, and therfore

peace to me, that is usefull in the dream.

Whether he is or is not Realized is not important as such.

I think he is, you dont, we certainly wont fall out over it.

We are certainly agreed on the validity of Ramana and I must refresh my memory on his teachings.

Belief/faith/knowledge to my mind, is the vehicle that gets you to

the river but it is only the grace of the True Guru, God which get

you safely to the otherside.

May we both stand on the bank and if its Gods will, be transported safely to the otherside.

I dont mind what does or dosnt happen in this or any other regard.

Its a good place to rest after years of frustration.

With respect as allways

Chris

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma To visit your group on the web, go

to:/ To from

this group, send an email

to: Your use of

Groups is subject to the