Guest guest Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 Hi Chris, you know, there is a saying that the only way to cross the river is to start from the other side. If I start from the assumption that "I am a physical body only" as many, if not most, scientists do, then I will never get past materiality. If I start from the assumption that I am my experiences, including my mystical experiences, then I will never get past the experiences, which come and go, and are a functioning of mind --- higher mind no doubt, but still the moving and changing mind. But if I thoroughly investigate both body and mind, and all the movements and changes therein, and then I draw back from both and ask, "What is it that sees this constantly moving and changing bodymind, and from what unchanging perspective are all these changes seen?" then changeless consciousness can be seen. Consciousness can see itself. Consciousness, the ultimate subjectivity, can see itself. Consciousness cannot see itself as an object , but it can see itself. Awareness aware of awareness. And then it is seen that unchanging awareness is the essential ingredient in all experience. In other words, I have always been unchanging consciousness. I couldn't not be consciousness, if I tried. Which, I suppose, is why some teachers say, "You have always been enlightened." Atmananda talks about it in his book Atma Darshan. It is a hard book to get but Blue Dove Books of San Diego often stock it, or will get it in for you. You can buy it online and it only costs about ten or twelve dollars for the paperback edition. My teacher,Francis Lucille, makes a distinction between enlightenment and self realization. He says that enlightenment happens the first time it is seen who "I" really is, usually in a glimpse. But self-realization is the process of incorporating this knowledge into all aspects of life, or, to put it another way, it is the process of rooting out ignorance wherever it hides. And this process, he points out, takes enormous courage, persistence and single-mindedness. This is the way Atmananda expressed it, the way Jean Klein expressed it and the way that Francis Lucille expresses it now. Of course, anyone is free to disagree. And no doubt there are many paths to self-realization. Cheers WW - AnneChris Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:16 AM Re: Re: What is a Guru? Namaste,I said the same thing as Eckhart, yet I am not enlightened. I also can go into yoga nidra and I'm still not enlightened. I'm glad Tolle can help you reading is good, but I'm not convinced he is a jivanmukta, but someone who has had a samadhi........ONS..Tony. Namaste it dosnt matter ultimately what I believe. I find that Eckharts teachings has brought a lot of understanding, and therfore peace to me, that is usefull in the dream. Whether he is or is not Realized is not important as such. I think he is, you dont, we certainly wont fall out over it. We are certainly agreed on the validity of Ramana and I must refresh my memory on his teachings. Belief/faith/knowledge to my mind, is the vehicle that gets you to the river but it is only the grace of the True Guru, God which get you safely to the otherside. May we both stand on the bank and if its Gods will, be transported safely to the otherside. I dont mind what does or dosnt happen in this or any other regard. Its a good place to rest after years of frustration. With respect as allways Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 - Warwick Wakefield Monday, January 19, 2004 10:42 PM Re: Re: What is a Guru? Hi Chris, you know, there is a saying that the only way to cross the river is to start from the other side. Namaste the book I am reading just now says much the same thing. We try to fit the Void into this penominal experience rather than the other way around. Thanks Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Namaste Chris You write We try to fit the Void into this phenomenal experience, rather than the other way around. Yes! That sums it up perfectly! I usually use the word "consciousness" rather than "void", but when you use the word void it is more difficult to imagine that it is my, personal void, whereas it is easy to fall into the trap of imagining that it is my. personal consciousness. Thanks Warwick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 , "Warwick Wakefield" <formandsubstance@t...> wrote: > Namaste Chris > > You write We try to fit the Void into this phenomenal experience, rather than the other way around. > > Yes! > That sums it up perfectly! > > I usually use the word "consciousness" rather than "void", but when you use the word void it is more difficult to imagine that it is my, personal void, whereas it is easy to fall into the trap of imagining that it is my. personal consciousness. > > Thanks > Warwick Namaste W, It is inexplicable for 'consciousness' is a quality of Saguna not Nirguna.........ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 - Dawn R Monday, January 19, 2004 4:59 PM Re: Re: What is a Guru? Hi Chris, I hope I'm not interupting...I know you were asking someone else but I thought that I'd give some input. You had wrote: ( I believe if true awakening has hapened there is no person left to recross the river back into the "normal" unawakened state. Could you give any one clear this up for me.) Many thanks Dawn for your input. Allways welcome and helpfull. Regards Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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