Guest guest Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Namaste, I have been fortunate enough to have most my erroneous views challenged in reality.Not just intellectual speculation. I have been lucky to be poor----I lived in a house with a wife and child when I was very young. There were about a dozen families in the house all living in one family per room. There was no bathroom and only one toilet that didn't function all the time. Though we did have gas rings and sinks in our rooms. Cold water mind you and the heating was a gas fire voraciously eating shillings. Plus I had to walk a few miles a day to work to save money for the baby's milk. I was seventeen years old, we both were. We were lucky we moved to a better house with a bathroom and kitchen, shared, Still one room. I got the accommodation because the Fascists had tried to kill me, and a young man who was the secretary of the young communists had watched me, his mother owned the house. It was owned by an Israeli woman who showed us how to use food and vitamins from very little. She learned it in the kibbutzes in the early days. I was involved in a violent organisation, that ended up causing many many deaths, even though I wasn't a fighter. I was also in the CND, and the anti-apartheid movement and was locked up. I have made a lot of money and also lost a lot of money, several times, I'm batting about 3/10, running up to a 100 employees. I finished school at 16 but did go to university at about age 40, to study Arts, Languages and Eastern Religions. My first wife died very young not long after one of our daughters died as an infant. I have lived in several countries and travelled a lot. Now what does all this mean? It means not a lot actually, but for the fact that I was led to Ramana's teachings and Vedanta---that was my good karma. However all the suffering was good karma also, and I'm glad it all happened even if it was all a dream. I feel so lucky that I actually experienced and learned that way and not through intellectualisation, which would have been beyond me at that time. I had to read 'Be as you are', several times to even understand it, I was that slow. I'm lucky when people talk of suffering, depression, loss and tragedy, to have experienced it for real. I can really understand from a different perspective than 'do gooders', or pollyanna types. So when Amma says most of her Western Devotees don't really understand the suffering and the poor, for they have live to comfortaable. I know what she means and I am glad I suffered for I would have never reached even my level of spiritual sadhana and search. Yet I have no shoes but many have no feet........ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 to TONY THANK YOU FOR SHARING IT michael bindel >"Tony OCler > >To: > Unless challenged you don't know. >Sat, 07 Feb 2004 19:33:17 -0000 > >Namaste, > >I have been fortunate enough to have most my erroneous views >challenged in reality.Not just intellectual speculation. I have been >lucky to be poor----I lived in a house with a wife and child when I >was very young. There were about a dozen families in the house all >living in one family per room. There was no bathroom and only one >toilet that didn't function all the time. Though we did have gas >rings and sinks in our rooms. Cold water mind you and the heating >was a gas fire voraciously eating shillings. Plus I had to walk a >few miles a day to work to save money for the baby's milk. I was >seventeen years old, we both were. We were lucky we moved to a >better house with a bathroom and kitchen, shared, Still one room. I >got the accommodation because the Fascists had tried to kill me, and >a young man who was the secretary of the young communists had >watched me, his mother owned the house. It was owned by an Israeli >woman who showed us how to use food and vitamins from very little. >She learned it in the kibbutzes in the early days. > >I was involved in a violent organisation, that ended up causing many >many deaths, even though I wasn't a fighter. > >I was also in the CND, and the anti-apartheid movement and was >locked up. > >I have made a lot of money and also lost a lot of money, several >times, I'm batting about 3/10, running up to a 100 employees. I >finished school at 16 but did go to university at about age 40, to >study Arts, Languages and Eastern Religions. > >My first wife died very young not long after one of our daughters >died as an infant. > >I have lived in several countries and travelled a lot. > >Now what does all this mean? It means not a lot actually, but for >the fact that I was led to Ramana's teachings and Vedanta---that was >my good karma. However all the suffering was good karma also, and >I'm glad it all happened even if it was all a dream. > >I feel so lucky that I actually experienced and learned that way and >not through intellectualisation, which would have been beyond me at >that time. I had to read 'Be as you are', several times to even >understand it, I was that slow. I'm lucky when people talk of >suffering, depression, loss and tragedy, to have experienced it for >real. I can really understand from a different perspective than 'do >gooders', or pollyanna types. > >So when Amma says most of her Western Devotees don't really >understand the suffering and the poor, for they have live to >comfortaable. I know what she means and I am glad I suffered for I >would have never reached even my level of spiritual sadhana and >search. Yet I have no shoes but many have no feet........ONS...Tony. > MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Dear Tony, Thank you for sharing this.... regards Ram , "Tony OClery" <aoclery> wrote: > Namaste, > > I have been fortunate enough to have most my erroneous views ....... ......ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Dear Tony: You wrote... ....I feel so lucky that I actually experienced and learned that way and not through intellectualisation, which would have been beyond me at that time. I had to read 'Be as you are', several times to even understand it, I was that slow. I'm lucky when people talk of suffering, depression, loss and tragedy, to have experienced it for real. I can really understand from a different perspective than 'do gooders', or pollyanna types.So when Amma says most of her Western Devotees don't really understand the suffering and the poor, for they have live to comfortaable. I know what she means and I am glad I suffered for I would have never reached even my level of spiritual sadhana and search. Yet I have no shoes but many have no feet........ONS...Tony. And there are those who have feet but cannot walk. I do not think any of us has the right to judge the suffering of others or try to put it into some context which works for us. What a person might experience in this dream is but a moment's snippet in the overall cinematic adventure. Perhaps the person who you refer to as a "do gooder" or a "pollyanna" has known suffering beyond even your own imagination in some other dream. Perhaps their karma has led them to the point where they "know suffering" for real, just like you. Perhaps they bring to bear a thousand lifetimes of suffering into this moment. Just because you cannot see it does not mean it is not there :-) That is one thing I am quite sure of...and the fact that suffering is indeed a gift, that everyting is exactly as it shoud be. Now what does all this mean? It means not a lot actually, but for the fact that I was led to Ramana's teachings and Vedanta---that was my good karma. However all the suffering was good karma also, and I'm glad it all happened even if it was all a dream.Thank you for sharing with us. What does this mean? It means that we know you better now, not just the Tony who writes one-liners and practices what he calls "confrontation yoga :-)" It means that the next time you swat someone with your verbal stick, I will remember...he has suffered, he is approaching his 80s, and he has an Irish temper. So when you dish out a whack, I will give you more slack. And in closing, here is a cute little whack story, just for you...Sri Ramana sends it your way... Love, Joyce When Bhagavan was living on the hill, a big monkey came one day when he was having his food, and sat near him. Bhagavan was about to put a morsel of food into his mouth, but when he saw the monkey he gave it the morsel. The monkey took it, put it on the plate and gave Bhagavan a square slap on the cheek. “What do you mean, you fellow? Why are you angry? I gave you the first morsel!” exclaimed Bhagavan. Then he understood his mistake. It was a king monkey and he had to be treated in the right royal manner. Bhagavan called for a separate leaf plate and a full meal was served to the king, who ate it all with dignity and proudly went away. Tales of BhagavanRamana Smrti SouvenirTranslated from Telugu by Surya Prasad http://www.satramana.org/html/maharshi_stories.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 , "Lady Joyce" <shaantih@c...> wrote: > Dear Tony: >feet........ONS...Tony. > > And there are those who have feet but cannot walk. I do not think any of us has the right to judge the suffering > of others or try to put it into some context which works for us. What a person might experience in this dream is > but a moment's snippet in the overall cinematic adventure. Perhaps the person who you refer to as a "do gooder" > or a "pollyanna" has known suffering beyond even your own imagination in some other dream. Perhaps their > karma has led them to the point where they "know suffering" for real, just like you. Perhaps they bring to > bear a thousand lifetimes of suffering into this moment. Just because you cannot see it does not mean it is not there :-) > That is one thing I am quite sure of...and the fact that suffering is indeed a gift, that everyting is exactly as it shoud be. > > Now what does all this mean? It means not a lot actually, but for > the fact that I was led to Ramana's teachings and Vedanta---that was > my good karma. However all the suffering was good karma also, and > I'm glad it all happened even if it was all a dream. > > Thank you for sharing with us. What does this mean? It means that we know you better now, not just the > Tony who writes one-liners and practices what he calls "confrontation yoga :-)" It means that the next time > you swat someone with your verbal stick, I will remember...he has suffered, he is approaching his 80s, and > he has an Irish temper. So when you dish out a whack, I will give you more slack. And in closing, here is > a cute little whack story, just for you...Sri Ramana sends it your way... > > Love, > > Joyce Namaste, There are 'do gooders', and 'pollyanna's' and there a nishkarma yogis. Most people would be surprised at the real attitude of the poor to some of their helpers. Why because the poor and sick are just that not stupid. They know when they are being used as a useful 'thing', for people to assuage their egos. You know---I help the poor and downtrodden what a good guy am I. Then I go straight back to my self indulgent life........a lip service that's all. Doing service work is a silent thing, it is Seva in Sanskrit, and it is a 24 understanding that we are all one. Would some of these people bring the raggity poor home for dinner, or is nice having them parcelled at some hall or home or other, where they can walk away change their clothes have a shower and then feel good about themselves. It is no different than giving money to charity to assuage karma. That is why Amma said what she did about her own devotees. That is why she bit the abscess in front of them. There are people who do service worke and then there are do gooders and pollyanna's..........ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 --- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: > , "Lady Joyce" > <shaantih@c...> > wrote: > > Dear Tony: > >feet........ONS...Tony. > > > > And there are those who have feet but cannot walk. > I do not think > any of us has the right to judge the suffering > > of others or try to put it into some context which > works for us. SNIP > > There are people who do service worke and then there > are do gooders > and pollyanna's..........ONS...> > Why be concerned with others, i.e., "do gooders" and "pollyannas". What will you do about them? Are they your business? michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 , Michael Bowes <rmichaelbowes> wrote: > > --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote: > > , "Lady Joyce" > > <shaantih@c...> > > wrote: > > > Dear Tony: > > >feet........ONS...Tony. > > > > > > And there are those who have feet but cannot walk. > > I do not think > > any of us has the right to judge the suffering > > > of others or try to put it into some context which > > works for us. > SNIP > > > > > There are people who do service worke and then there > > are do gooders > > and pollyanna's..........ONS...> > > > > > Why be concerned with others, i.e., "do gooders" and > "pollyannas". What will you do about them? Are they > your business? > > michael Namaste M, They are everyones business of course. Many of the sick and poor know that the people who come to help them with a do-gooder or pollyanna attitude are only self serving and belong to the middle and higher classes that exploit and oppress them in every other way. Or burn up resources with comfortable lifestyles and self indulgence, so doing harm to the ecology and the poor. If everyone lived like North Americans did for example, we would need several planets the size of earth, do you not think that is violence? I suppose that is the karmic reason for revolutions and churning of societies every now and then. It is real whilst you are in it so it is your business if you are not realised.........ONS..Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 --- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: > , Michael Bowes > > <rmichaelbowes> wrote: > > > > --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote: > > > , "Lady > Joyce" > > > <shaantih@c...> > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Tony: > > > >feet........ONS...Tony. > > > > > > > > And there are those who have feet but cannot > walk. > > > I do not think > > > any of us has the right to judge the suffering > > > > of others or try to put it into some context > which > > > works for us. > > SNIP > > > > > > > > There are people who do service worke and then > there > > > are do gooders > > > and pollyanna's..........ONS...> > > > > > > > > > Why be concerned with others, i.e., "do gooders" > and > > "pollyannas". What will you do about them? Are > they > > your business? > > > > michael > > Namaste M, > > They are everyones business of course. > Many of the sick and poor know that the people who > come to help them > with a do-gooder or pollyanna attitude are only self > serving and > belong to the middle and higher classes that exploit > and oppress > them in every other way. Or burn up resources with > comfortable > lifestyles and self indulgence, so doing harm to the > ecology and the > poor. If everyone lived like North Americans did for > example, we > would need several planets the size of earth, do you > not think that > is violence? > I suppose that is the karmic reason for revolutions > and churning of > societies every now and then. It is real whilst you > are in it so it > is your business if you are not > realised.........ONS..> Cool! And can you actually do something about it? Yesterday there was some discussion about prior alcoholism and drug addiction, etc. Do you remember the portion of the AA prayer that goes something like this: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference (paraphrased). My opinion is that you, or I, can do little or nothing to change the "do gooders" and "polyannas" that you are referring to. But, maybe you can do something and if so what is it? And if, other than bemoaning the problem, you really can't do anything about it, then why not forget it? michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 , Michael Bowes <rmichaelbowes> wrote: >> > > > > > Why be concerned with others, i.e., "do gooders" > > and > > > "pollyannas". What will you do about them? Are > > they > > > your business? > > > > > > michael > > > > Namaste M, > > > > They are everyones business of course. > > Many of the sick and poor know that the people who > > come to help them > > with a do-gooder or pollyanna attitude are only self > > serving and > > belong to the middle and higher classes that exploit > > and oppress > > them in every other way. Or burn up resources with > > comfortable > > lifestyles and self indulgence, so doing harm to the > > ecology and the > > poor. If everyone lived like North Americans did for > > example, we > > would need several planets the size of earth, do you > > not think that > > is violence? > > I suppose that is the karmic reason for revolutions > > and churning of > > societies every now and then. It is real whilst you > > are in it so it > > is your business if you are not > > realised.........ONS..> > > Cool! And can you actually do something about it? > > Yesterday there was some discussion about prior > alcoholism and drug addiction, etc. Do you remember > the portion of the AA prayer that goes something like > this: God grant me the serenity to accept the things > I cannot change, the courage to change the things that > I can, and the wisdom to know the difference > (paraphrased). > > My opinion is that you, or I, can do little or nothing > to change the "do gooders" and "polyannas" that you > are referring to. But, maybe you can do something and > if so what is it? And if, other than bemoaning the > problem, you really can't do anything about it, then > why not forget it? > > michael Namaste, There really has to be a new age of enlightenment. Where the political greedy systems of today are replaced with ones more spiritual. Captitalism and Totalitarianism have to be replaced for they interfere with the spiritual progress of mankind. The old systems of the world were more fair. They were more like Communism but with a spiritual dimension. I always felt that was Marx's failing in his philosophy, resulting in materialism. In the old days there were four broad arrangements. Spiritual people, administrator and police people, merchants and finally workers. These were not set in stone so people were in which group they most suited. The problem today is the merchant class is out of order and ruling the world, so sidelining everyone else. Consequently we are ruled by lower states of awareness based on greed. Peacefully Overthrow this system and it gives the general population a chance to go on to the spiritual path more. Which is the whole purpose of the human race etc...........ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 - Tony OClery To: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 3:37 AM Re: Unless challenged you don't know.> Why be concerned with others, i.e., "do gooders" and> "pollyannas". What will you do about them? Are they> your business?> > michaelNamaste M,They are everyones business of course. Many of the sick and poor know that the people who come to help them with a do-gooder or pollyanna attitude are only self serving and belong to the middle and higher classes that exploit and oppress them in every other way. What is emerging here is old-fashioned lefty ideology. This ideology, in the extreme, manifests by blowing up babies, with bombs planted in public places, as used to happen not so very long ago when the IRA and their ilk were active in the streets of Northern Ireland and in England. Or burn up resources with comfortable lifestyles and self indulgence, so doing harm to the ecology and the poor. This is simply eco-fundamentalism. Tony, if you are still young enough to send a stream of often-vitriolic messages to websites, then you are young enough to borrow, from your public library, Bjorn Lomborg's book, "The Skeptical Enviromentalist", spend some time digesting it, and discover, firstly, the scientific shonkiness of eco-fundamentalism, and then, secondly, the ancient, common-or-garden, prejudices and hatreds that use eco-fundamentalism as a cover. If everyone lived like North Americans did for example, we would need several planets the size of earth, do you not think that is violence? A particularly nasty form that eco-fundamentalism takes is anti-Americanism. It is an extension of the envy, and underlying obsession with materialism, in all aspects of that word, that motivates lefty politics and social prejudice everywhere. I suppose that is the karmic reason for revolutions and churning of societies every now and then. It is real whilst you are in it so it is your business if you are not realised......... ONS.."Karmic reasons" indeed! Prejudice and hostility, whether the hostility is latent or active, usually likes to dress itself up in fancy clothing. If you want to preach the ideologies of class and national hostility, there are thousands of appropriate sites. The way I see it, spiritual understanding is an altogether different, and altogether more demanding, endeavour. Perhaps a good place to start would be to consider whether these grubby ideologies are, in fact, really you. Or whether they are just secondhand goods, soiled goods, that have nothing at all to do with the shining consciousness which you really are. WW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 , "Warwick Wakefield" > > I suppose that is the karmic reason for revolutions and churning of > societies every now and then. It is real whilst you are in it so it > is your business if you are not realised......... > > ONS..> > "Karmic reasons" indeed! > Prejudice and hostility, whether the hostility is latent or active, usually likes to dress itself up in fancy clothing. > If you want to preach the ideologies of class and national hostility, there are thousands of appropriate sites. > The way I see it, spiritual understanding is an altogether different, and altogether more demanding, endeavour. > > Perhaps a good place to start would be to consider whether these grubby ideologies are, in fact, really you. Or whether they are just secondhand goods, soiled goods, that have nothing at all to do with the shining consciousness which you really are. > > WW Namaste WW, I'm sorry if I have offended your seeming, anti 'Left Wing', 'anti kyoto' sensibilities. However nowhere have I espoused any political view point, in fact I am apolitical and hold no real party views. What I do try to do is speak the truth from my own experience and association with others. I never speculate or represent what I have not experienced or been heavily associated with. I could have gone on about the 700 years oppression of my people by the British and the Irish Holocaust or Famine. Where a population dropped from 9 million to about 3-4 million, in a few short years, supervised by the British Empire. I could have mentioned my relative stood against the wall and shot by soldiers or my relatives burned out of their house etc etc. So you see if I was political there is a lot to talk about. However I have long since given up anger on those subjects. I stick to the facts. However what I was talking about was the old Vedic and pre Vedic system of organising society for the benefit of all, and preserving a spiritual bent. With their tri-cameral legislatures and each groups keeping to what suited its temperament. In that system the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas guided and ruled the country, the Vaisyas kept to commerce and the Sudras to the labouring and working. This allowed people to participate fully in the society and also pursue the spiritual path not pursue material wealth as such. The whole purpose of birth being a search for enlightenment. This is why the whole premise of capitalism based on greed is so anti spiritual, and just as anti spiritual is communism combined with atheism. I only mentioned North America for I live in Canada and I am a Canadian Citizen. Nowhere did I mention the USA, it isn't necessary to point out the obvious, every train has an engine. The facts on exploitation of resources etc are obvious never mind the research. It is all a violation of Ahimsa, the planet in itself has its own ego and even planetary God/Deva. It is said that is precisely what Adam/Jesus was, in many mystical and kabbalistic groups. The most damage is by ignoring the problem. I have no animosity towards people, only their actions can I know them. One cannot mentally project oneself into the field of activity from a chair. To many people what passes as spirituality is actually spiritual materialism or a desire for spiritual wealth. Unless one is realised one has to act. Yes I would like to see the entire world order of capitalism and totalitarianism overthrown peacefully in favour of a more spiritual system; that being the reason for our 'creation' and presence on this planet----spiritual seeking that is. I base that on the Bible and also on the story of the Kumaras in the Bagavatham. Again I'm sorry you have chosen to be upset about my post, perhaps I should have been a little more explicit, but I didn't want to sound too -whatever- in talking about the Vedic and pre Vedic Ages and their governance.....ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 PLEASE HELP ME WHAT IS pollyanna MICHAEL BINDEL >Michael Bowes > >To: >Re: Re: Unless challenged you don't know. >Mon, 9 Feb 2004 04:47:28 -0800 (PST) > > >--- Tony OClery wrote: > > --- In , "Lady Joyce" > > > > wrote: > > > Dear Tony: > > >feet........ONS...Tony. > > > > > > And there are those who have feet but cannot walk. > > I do not think > > any of us has the right to judge the suffering > > > of others or try to put it into some context which > > works for us. >SNIP > > > > > There are people who do service worke and then there > > are do gooders > > and pollyanna's..........ONS...Tony > > > > > >Why be concerned with others, i.e., "do gooders" and >"pollyannas". What will you do about them? Are they >your business? > >michael STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 --- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: > , Michael Bowes > > <rmichaelbowes> wrote: > >> > > > > > > Why be concerned with others, i.e., "do > gooders" > > > and > > > > "pollyannas". What will you do about them? > Are > > > they > > > > your business? > > > > > > > > michael > > > > > > Namaste M, > > > > > > They are everyones business of course. > > > Many of the sick and poor know that the people > who > > > come to help them > > > with a do-gooder or pollyanna attitude are only > self > > > serving and > > > belong to the middle and higher classes that > exploit > > > and oppress > > > them in every other way. Or burn up resources > with > > > comfortable > > > lifestyles and self indulgence, so doing harm to > the > > > ecology and the > > > poor. If everyone lived like North Americans did > for > > > example, we > > > would need several planets the size of earth, do > you > > > not think that > > > is violence? > > > I suppose that is the karmic reason for > revolutions > > > and churning of > > > societies every now and then. It is real whilst > you > > > are in it so it > > > is your business if you are not > > > realised.........ONS..> > > > > Cool! And can you actually do something about it? > > > > Yesterday there was some discussion about prior > > alcoholism and drug addiction, etc. Do you > remember > > the portion of the AA prayer that goes something > like > > this: God grant me the serenity to accept the > things > > I cannot change, the courage to change the things > that > > I can, and the wisdom to know the difference > > (paraphrased). > > > > My opinion is that you, or I, can do little or > nothing > > to change the "do gooders" and "polyannas" that > you > > are referring to. But, maybe you can do something > and > > if so what is it? And if, other than bemoaning > the > > problem, you really can't do anything about it, > then > > why not forget it? > > > > michael > > Namaste, > > There really has to be a new age of enlightenment. > Where the > political greedy systems of today are replaced with > ones more > spiritual. Captitalism and Totalitarianism have to > be replaced for > they interfere with the spiritual progress of > mankind. The old > systems of the world were more fair. They were more > like Communism > but with a spiritual dimension. I always felt that > was Marx's > failing in his philosophy, resulting in materialism. > In the old days there were four broad arrangements. > Spiritual > people, administrator and police people, merchants > and finally > workers. These were not set in stone so people were > in which group > they most suited. The problem today is the merchant > class is out of > order and ruling the world, so sidelining everyone > else. > Consequently we are ruled by lower states of > awareness based on > greed. Peacefully Overthrow this system and it gives > the general > population a chance to go on to the spiritual path > more. Which is > the whole purpose of the human race > etc...........ONS...> Good luck Tonyji. michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.