Guest guest Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 This link was posted on another list. Tony has written a number of times to the sangha distinguishing Pollyanna and do-gooders from Amma or Ammachi, whom I believe he placed before us as an example of what love is. Whatever truth there may be to the article, I do not know.What remains is the inevitable conclusion that you should not seek grace outside of you, to be given by someone else. http://pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwalrusfrm33.showMessage?topicID=62.topic Love, Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 , "Lady Joyce" <shaantih@c...> wrote: > This link was posted on another list. Tony has written a number of times > to the sangha distinguishing Pollyanna and do-gooders from Amma or Ammachi, > whom I believe he placed before us as an example of what love is. > > Whatever truth there may be to the article, I do not know. > What remains is the inevitable conclusion that you should > not seek grace outside of you, to be given by someone else. > > > http://pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwalrusfrm33.showMessage? topicID=62.topic > > Love, > > Joyce Namaste J, I actually said I didn't know who or what Amma was, and that the excessive money collection was a question. In the end I said I respect her for the work she does to the poor. She doesn't claim to be anything but her devotees elevate her to elevate themselves perhaps. However one time she was in braces for arthritis caused by the hugging, and she was still doing it. I had a broken arm and she was very concerned about how I was and how I got it etc. She comes under my classification of 'road show' gurus. But until I can hug people for 24 hours all braced up in pain, I shall refrain from criticism of her. Her devotees is another matter.........ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 Dear Joyce and everyone, I am not familiar with the lady preacher that is referred to in your post; but, in general, I believe that persons should beware of any of these so-called gurus. The whole guru thing is hugely overblown. In ancient India where the term "guru" originated, a guru was a person who a young man might go to for education and training. Basically the guru was a person who taught the Vedas. Writing was slow to develop in the South Asian sub-continent and for centuries the Vedas were handed down orally from person to person. The gurus were sort of the repositories of religious knowledge. So if a young man had a religious bent his parents would send him to a guru for training. As the practice of Yoga and meditation developed, a student/sadhu might go to a guru for instruction in those practices. But, there are certain individuals who are able to manifest some type of energy. Call it whatever, but these manifestations take the form of miracles or the transference of shakti, etc. This is the guru that most people are looking for today; but beware. Just because you witness miracles or seem to experience a strange power in the presence of one these people it doesn't necessarily mean anything good. And it can mean that you're about to be duped. Listen to a little story. The full story is nothing short of shocking; but I don't have time to write all the details. A swami came to the United States in the early 1990s. He had never been to the United States before; but he developed a rather large following in a very short time. An Indian friend of mine told me where the swami was staying and suggested that we go to meet him. I did meet him and he seemed like a great guy, all vedantic and everything. My friend and I went to several events where the swami was present and at one of those small satsangs my friend said that an indescribable force emanated from this swami and entered his (my friend's) body. My friend was ecstatic. He had found his guru. I was also at that event and I saw grown men breaking down suddenly and crying and everything and it was rather strange. Then, about three days before the swami was to return to India, there was a very large puja and homa ceremony, the swami announced that the sacrifice had been a success and as a result it would rain. Rain was in the long term forecast; but it wasn't supposed to start for several days. But that night it started raining and I mean it rained buckets for days. A few days later I was among those who were going to accompany the swami to the airport. It was still raining. Everyone was sad. As we were ready to leave the apartment building where the swami was staying I stood in the doorway hesitating to go out because of the very heavy rain. As the swami left the building the rain stopped; and as soon as he made it across the parking lot and into his car, the rain began again. The same thing occurred at the airport, when the swami's car pulled up to the curb to unload, it was pouring down rain; but as his door was opening the rain stopped and as soon as he was under the overhang on the sidewalk the rain started again just as quickly as it had stopped. I thought, "Wow, this guy is really tuned in!" My Indian friend also believed the swami was a "sadguru" because he had also seen these strange events, and he had also been the recipient of some kind of shakti. My friend began making plans to quit his job, move to back to India, and become this swami's disciple. As time passed the swami would send a letter to my friend once in a while and sometimes the swami would call on the telephone and my friend had already quit his job and he was living at my house just waiting for the swami to come back. My friend planned to return to India with the swami at the end of the swami's next tour. The swami didn't come back when he said he was going to. But he sent me a letter asking me to come to India to be his guest at his country ashram. So, I prepared to go to India, and off I went. But, oh my God, this guy was a total idiot. He was a liar, a beggar, and a con man. He was a rip off artist and an absolute jerk. I just can't take the time today to write the whole story. And even if I did write the whole thing some of you would have a hard time believing that anyone could be as idiotic and as treacherous as this man. All he wanted from me was money and plenty of it. So I decided to leave his ashram earlier than scheduled. And when he found out about this, he wanted to know why. He sent his head of security to see me. Why are you leaving?, he asked. I just want to leave, I replied. But the swami wants to talk to you, he said. I told him that I really didn't think that the swami and I should talk. But he insisted. So I went to the swamis room. The swami was waiting with a number of is followers. They were all Indians. I'm the only westerner who had ever been there. They were sitting on the porch on the outside of the swami's room. The swami asked why I was leaving. I told him that it was best not to discuss it. I told him that it is best to forget. He said that he didn't want to forget it and that he wanted to know why I was going. So, I told him. My reasons were very embarrassing to him. But he was such a complete jerk that I don't guess that it ever occurred to him that he shouldn't discuss these issues in public. As soon as some of this came out the head of security told me to shut up. He started screaming at me. I screamed back and told him that since the swami wanted to know, that I would shut up when I was done. When I was done, the swami packed up his stuff, loaded it into his Tata Estate Wagon and put as many of his followers in there with him as he could and they left. The ashram was actually a farm that one of his followers owned. I have been in touch with people there since then and as far as I know the swami never returned to this place. The owner of the farm was delighted that the swami had left and told me that he was grateful because "Baba had sent me from the United States to save him (the owner) from this man (the swami)." Miracles and shaktipat and all of those things can be very deceptive. I really would never trust another person like him again. Even if miracles or shakti was just squirting from someone, I wouldn't trust them. You don't need these people anyway. I agree with what Joyce wrote: > What remains is the inevitable conclusion that you > should > not seek grace outside of you, to be given by > someone else. Learn a technique that seems right to you and practice, practice, practice. Always keep your eye on the goal. One more thing, ignore all of these so-called gurus or teachers that tell you that you don't need to do anything to attain liberation. For the most part, they have no idea what they're talking about. If you do practice something effective you won't need them. And if you don't need them, then how are they going to make a living. believe me, they want you to hang around. Regards, michael SNIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 , "Lady Joyce" <shaantih@c...> wrote: > This link was posted on another list. Tony has written a number of times > to the sangha distinguishing Pollyanna and do-gooders from Amma or Ammachi, > whom I believe he placed before us as an example of what love is. > > Whatever truth there may be to the article, I do not know. > What remains is the inevitable conclusion that you should > not seek grace outside of you, to be given by someone else. > > > http://pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwalrusfrm33.showMessage? topicID=62.topic > > Love, > > Joyce Hi Joyce, Just butting in here not having read or followed anything previously. That article is very suspect to me. I have seen Amma a number of times. And while I do not consider myself her devotee, she does seem fine to me. Actually I don't see how that article proves your point. Except to say that some people have very negative views about Amma. Well, what else is new? She seems to push a lot of buttons. Some people feel they have to defend her to the point of getting themselves very angry and upset. Others feel they have to denigrate her and that she demonstrates the negative epitome of guru/disciple slavery. Perhaps it is because she has such a large following and presence that people can project just about anything on to her they wish. I don't know. It's all very enigmatic to me. I go and see her, and I don't know why, except that I enjoy myself when I am there. I have seen many very respected people in the "advaita" community going to her, seeking her blessings, asking her to perform their marriages, one asking her advice before moving on to a well-respected teacher of advaita. They all seem to respect her. She seems to be some kind of lightening rod for discussion. I used to think I was far too hip for her, and then I found out I wasn't. Perhaps all conclusions are useless, but I would say from what I've seen, that for those who are drawn to the path of devotion and karma yoga, she is a very good guru. One other thing that has struck me when I see her is that, unlike many other spiritual scenes, the closer you get to the people close to her, the nicer, more open and less egoic those people are. Again, I don't know if that proves anything, but it is a beautiful environment to visit. I said to one friend the other day, "Why do I go there? It isn't as if I feel I am visiting my home," i.e. Neem Karoli Baba's ashram. She said, "Maybe you feel as if you are visiting your auntie's house." That's probably true. Apologies for such a long post. Love, Durga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 I wrote... >> What remains is the inevitable conclusion that you should > not seek grace outside of you, to be given by someone else. > > > http://pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwalrusfrm33.showMessage? topicID=62.topic > > Love, > > Joyce Hi Joyce, Just butting in here not having read or followed anything previously. That article is very suspect to me. I have seen Amma a number of times. And while I do not consider myself her devotee, she does seem fine to me. Actually I don't see how that article proves your point. Except to say that some people have very negative views about Amma. Well, what else is new? She seems to push a lot of buttons. Some people feel they have to defend her to the point of getting themselves very angry and upset. Others feel they have to denigrate her and that she demonstrates the negative epitome of guru/disciple slavery. ==================================================== I think your statement above said it much better than I :-) ================================================ I said to one friend the other day, "Why do I go there? It isn't as if I feel I am visiting my home," i.e. Neem Karoli Baba's ashram. She said, "Maybe you feel as if you are visiting your auntie's house." That's probably true. ================================================ I think perhaps what you are talking about here is more the social interaction you enjoy, just like me when I go to mandir. I am talking about grace. While it surely comes in many forms, I meant Grace :-) To me, you are talking about satsangha. ================================================== Apologies for such a long post. Love, Durga Always nice to hear from you, Durga. Love, Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 , "Lady Joyce" <shaantih@c...> wrote: > I wrote... > > >> What remains is the inevitable conclusion that you should > > not seek grace outside of you, to be given by someone else. Hey hey Joyce-ji, Have been thinking about all of this. So just to ruminate a bit, I still don't see what that negative post about Amma has to do with seeking grace outside of oneself. Actually a lot of people seek grace outside of themselves, because they don't know who they are. Many people pray for God's grace or guru's grace. "I don't know who I am. I think I am this body/mind. I am suffering. Dear Self, God or guru, if I am wrong, please help me. Please bestow your grace, so that I may come to know who I am." Then, if one's desire is pure or strong enough, perhaps the Self will graciously manifest as the guru to tell the seeker, "You are that which you seek." Being caught in the illusory box, so to speak, the seeker, unless he/she is incrediby lucky, will most likely need to hear this message from an "outside" source, and need to hear it over and over again, until by Grace the truth is known. Even then, as far as I have heard, the guru is ever after venerated as being the one who conveyed the message. But all of these words are tricky. You said "outside of oneself", what is meant by that? That's actually a big statement. People could have a lot of fun with that statement. What is outside? What is oneself? Anyway, dear Joyce, just having fun. Lots of love, Durga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 thank you MICHAEL BOWES its very important that seekers real ones listen to stories like this... all the best michel bindel - Michael Bowes Sunday, February 22, 2004 7:00 PM Re: amma inc...ammachi..inc..chinc...chinc...$$$$$ Dear Joyce and everyone,I am not familiar with the lady preacher that isreferred to in your post; but, in general, I believethat persons should beware of any of these so-calledgurus.The whole guru thing is hugely overblown. In ancientIndia where the term "guru" originated, a guru was aperson who a young man might go to for education andtraining. Basically the guru was a person who taughtthe Vedas. Writing was slow to develop in the SouthAsian sub-continent and for centuries the Vedas werehanded down orally from person to person. The guruswere sort of the repositories of religious knowledge. So if a young man had a religious bent his parentswould send him to a guru for training. As thepractice of Yoga and meditation developed, astudent/sadhu might go to a guru for instruction inthose practices.But, there are certain individuals who are able tomanifest some type of energy. Call it whatever, butthese manifestations take the form of miracles or thetransference of shakti, etc. This is the guru thatmost people are looking for today; but beware. Justbecause you witness miracles or seem to experience astrange power in the presence of one these people itdoesn't necessarily mean anything good. And it canmean that you're about to be duped.Listen to a little story. The full story is nothingshort of shocking; but I don't have time to write allthe details.A swami came to the United States in the early 1990s. He had never been to the United States before; but hedeveloped a rather large following in a very shorttime.An Indian friend of mine told me where the swami wasstaying and suggested that we go to meet him. I didmeet him and he seemed like a great guy, all vedanticand everything. My friend and I went to severalevents where the swami was present and at one of thosesmall satsangs my friend said that an indescribableforce emanated from this swami and entered his (myfriend's) body. My friend was ecstatic. He had foundhis guru. I was also at that event and I saw grownmen breaking down suddenly and crying and everythingand it was rather strange.Then, about three days before the swami was to returnto India, there was a very large puja and homaceremony, the swami announced that the sacrifice hadbeen a success and as a result it would rain. Rainwas in the long term forecast; but it wasn't supposedto start for several days. But that night it startedraining and I mean it rained buckets for days.A few days later I was among those who were going toaccompany the swami to the airport. It was stillraining. Everyone was sad. As we were ready to leavethe apartment building where the swami was staying Istood in the doorway hesitating to go out because ofthe very heavy rain. As the swami left the buildingthe rain stopped; and as soon as he made it across theparking lot and into his car, the rain began again. The same thing occurred at the airport, when theswami's car pulled up to the curb to unload, it waspouring down rain; but as his door was opening therain stopped and as soon as he was under the overhangon the sidewalk the rain started again just as quicklyas it had stopped.I thought, "Wow, this guy is really tuned in!" MyIndian friend also believed the swami was a "sadguru"because he had also seen these strange events, and hehad also been the recipient of some kind of shakti. My friend began making plans to quit his job, move toback to India, and become this swami's disciple.As time passed the swami would send a letter to myfriend once in a while and sometimes the swami wouldcall on the telephone and my friend had already quithis job and he was living at my house just waiting forthe swami to come back. My friend planned to returnto India with the swami at the end of the swami's nexttour. The swami didn't come back when he said he wasgoing to. But he sent me a letter asking me to cometo India to be his guest at his country ashram.So, I prepared to go to India, and off I went. But,oh my God, this guy was a total idiot. He was a liar,a beggar, and a con man. He was a rip off artist andan absolute jerk. I just can't take the time today towrite the whole story. And even if I did write thewhole thing some of you would have a hard timebelieving that anyone could be as idiotic and astreacherous as this man. All he wanted from me wasmoney and plenty of it.So I decided to leave his ashram earlier thanscheduled. And when he found out about this, hewanted to know why. He sent his head of security tosee me. Why are you leaving?, he asked. I just wantto leave, I replied. But the swami wants to talk toyou, he said. I told him that I really didn't thinkthat the swami and I should talk. But he insisted. So I went to the swamis room. The swami was waitingwith a number of is followers. They were all Indians.I'm the only westerner who had ever been there. Theywere sitting on the porch on the outside of theswami's room. The swami asked why I was leaving. I told him that itwas best not to discuss it. I told him that it isbest to forget. He said that he didn't want to forgetit and that he wanted to know why I was going.So, I told him. My reasons were very embarrassing tohim. But he was such a complete jerk that I don'tguess that it ever occurred to him that he shouldn'tdiscuss these issues in public. As soon as some ofthis came out the head of security told me to shut up.He started screaming at me. I screamed back and toldhim that since the swami wanted to know, that I wouldshut up when I was done. When I was done, the swamipacked up his stuff, loaded it into his Tata EstateWagon and put as many of his followers in there withhim as he could and they left.The ashram was actually a farm that one of hisfollowers owned. I have been in touch with peoplethere since then and as far as I know the swami neverreturned to this place. The owner of the farm wasdelighted that the swami had left and told me that hewas grateful because "Baba had sent me from the UnitedStates to save him (the owner) from this man (theswami)."Miracles and shaktipat and all of those things can bevery deceptive. I really would never trust anotherperson like him again. Even if miracles or shakti wasjust squirting from someone, I wouldn't trust them.You don't need these people anyway.I agree with what Joyce wrote: > What remains is the inevitable conclusion that you> should > not seek grace outside of you, to be given by> someone else.Learn a technique that seems right to you andpractice, practice, practice. Always keep your eye onthe goal.One more thing, ignore all of these so-called gurus orteachers that tell you that you don't need to doanything to attain liberation. For the most part,they have no idea what they're talking about.If you do practice something effective you won't needthem. And if you don't need them, then how are theygoing to make a living. believe me, they want you tohang around.Regards,michaelSNIP/join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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