Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 Namaste, I remember many many years ago my mother telling me that nobody could be as perfect as Jesus for he was the Son of God etc. I wondered why not? As Jesus says, 'Be ye perfect as my Father in Heaven is perfect.' This is an exhortation to his disciples to purify themeselves, this is exactly what it is all about. Jesus was obviously a Raja Yogi and Vedantist, it seeps through all of the Gospels and Sermon on the Mount. I know this is hard but unless we are perfect there can by no Moksha. No short cuts.............ONS....Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 There is no hope for people like Ben. O well. At least I can play with the Friend. Love, Ben. - Tony OClery Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:36 PM Nobody can be that perfect Namaste,I remember many many years ago my mother telling me that nobody could be as perfect as Jesus for he was the Son of God etc. I wondered why not? As Jesus says, 'Be ye perfect as my Father in Heaven is perfect.' This is an exhortation to his disciples to purify themeselves, this is exactly what it is all about. Jesus was obviously a Raja Yogi and Vedantist, it seeps through all of the Gospels and Sermon on the Mount.I know this is hard but unless we are perfect there can by no Moksha. No short cuts.............ONS....Tony/join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 I'm perfect --- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: > Namaste, > > I remember many many years ago my mother telling me > that nobody > could be as perfect as Jesus for he was the Son of > God etc. I > wondered why not? As Jesus says, 'Be ye perfect as > my Father in > Heaven is perfect.' This is an exhortation to his > disciples to > purify themeselves, this is exactly what it is all > about. Jesus was > obviously a Raja Yogi and Vedantist, it seeps > through all of the > Gospels and Sermon on the Mount. > I know this is hard but unless we are perfect there > can by no > Moksha. No short cuts.............ONS....> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 , Michael Bowes <rmichaelbowes> wrote: > I'm perfect > > > --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote: > > Namaste, > > > > I remember many many years ago my mother telling me > > that nobody > > could be as perfect as Jesus for he was the Son of > > God etc. I > > wondered why not? As Jesus says, 'Be ye perfect as > > my Father in > > Heaven is perfect.' This is an exhortation to his > > disciples to > > purify themeselves, this is exactly what it is all > > about. Jesus was > > obviously a Raja Yogi and Vedantist, it seeps > > through all of the > > Gospels and Sermon on the Mount. > > I know this is hard but unless we are perfect there > > can by no > > Moksha. No short cuts.............ONS....> > > > Namaste, I'm glad youre perfect so am I, but do we have individual thoughts? To be or not to be, that is the question.........ONS..Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 - Tony OClery Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:36 PM Nobody can be that perfect Namaste,I remember many many years ago my mother telling me that nobody could be as perfect as Jesus for he was the Son of God etc. I wondered why not? As Jesus says, 'Be ye perfect as my Father in Heaven is perfect.' This is an exhortation to his disciples to purify themeselves, this is exactly what it is all about. Jesus was obviously a Raja Yogi and Vedantist, it seeps through all of the Gospels and Sermon on the Mount.I know this is hard but unless we are perfect there can by no Moksha. No short cuts.............ONS.... ************* Seems you are still an altar boy Tony. A very learned one knowing all the names of all the levels, angels and archangels. You seem still to believe in 'original sin' and are still suffering the consequences of that destructive idea. Just for fun I could ask you what you mean here by the word perfect. A Zen master, can't remember who, maybe Bankei, was telling the students that everything was perfect as it is. A hunchback stood up and in protest showed his hunched back and asked: 'What about this back of mine?'. The master answered: 'That is the most perfect hunched back I have ever seen'. , What you write above is only the tyranny of the priests. Haven't you have enough of that? No one can stop you from suffering the consequences of your own ideas, but you insist on wanting to make them into universal laws, your very own priestly mind. All these years of searching for perfection. One wants to hold on to something doesn't one? Something to show for it. It's hard to be flat broke. The innocent, perfect child you were before you absorbed all these ideals, was, is and always will be already perfect. Have you looked into a child's eyes lately? Can there be more perfection? Namaste, Sam /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 , Sam <S.Pasiencier@p...> wrote: > > - > Tony OClery > > Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:36 PM > Nobody can be that perfect > > > Namaste, > > I remember many many years ago my mother telling me that nobody > could be as perfect as Jesus for he was the Son of God etc. I > wondered why not? As Jesus says, 'Be ye perfect as my Father in > Heaven is perfect.' This is an exhortation to his disciples to > purify themeselves, this is exactly what it is all about. Jesus was > obviously a Raja Yogi and Vedantist, it seeps through all of the > Gospels and Sermon on the Mount. > I know this is hard but unless we are perfect there can by no > Moksha. No short cuts.............ONS....> ************* > > Seems you are still an altar boy Tony. A very learned one knowing all the names of all the levels, angels and archangels. > You seem still to believe in 'original sin' and are still suffering the consequences of that destructive idea. Namaste, I think you are transposing your own ideas on to me. Original Sin is a very complicated idea. It actually means the separation of the sould from God. Or in Vedantic terms the formation of the Ego. My belief in being perfected is the belief of the Vedantists and Yogis that even one thought will bring you back and prevent moksha.................ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 , Sam <S.Pasiencier@p...> wrote: > > - > Tony OClery > > Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:36 PM > Nobody can be that perfect > > > Namaste, > > I remember many many years ago my mother telling me that nobody > could be as perfect as Jesus for he was the Son of God etc. I > wondered why not? As Jesus says, 'Be ye perfect as my Father in > Heaven is perfect.' This is an exhortation to his disciples to > purify themeselves, this is exactly what it is all about. Jesus was > obviously a Raja Yogi and Vedantist, it seeps through all of the > Gospels and Sermon on the Mount. > I know this is hard but unless we are perfect there can by no > Moksha. No short cuts.............ONS....> ************* > > Seems you are still an altar boy Tony. A very learned one knowing all the names of all the levels, angels and archangels. > You seem still to believe in 'original sin' and are still suffering the consequences of that destructive idea. > > Just for fun I could ask you what you mean here by the word perfect. > > A Zen master, can't remember who, maybe Bankei, was telling the students that everything was perfect as it is. A hunchback stood up and in protest showed his hunched back and asked: 'What about this back of mine?'. The master answered: 'That is the most perfect hunched back I have ever seen'. , > What you write above is only the tyranny of the priests. Haven't you have enough of that? > > No one can stop you from suffering the consequences of your own ideas, but you insist on wanting to make them into universal laws, your very own priestly mind. > > All these years of searching for perfection. One wants to hold on to something doesn't one? Something to show for it. > > It's hard to be flat broke. > > The innocent, perfect child you were before you absorbed all these ideals, was, is and always will be already perfect. > > Have you looked into a child's eyes lately? > > Can there be more perfection? > > Namaste, Sam Namaste S, It takes purification of the mind from its vasanas and samskaras, to realise everything is already perfect..........ONS..Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 - Tony OClery Wednesday, February 25, 2004 5:19 PM Re: Nobody can be that perfect , Sam <S.Pasiencier@p...> wrote:> > - > Tony OClery > To: > Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:36 PM> Nobody can be that perfect> > > Namaste,> > I remember many many years ago my mother telling me that nobody > could be as perfect as Jesus for he was the Son of God etc. I > wondered why not? As Jesus says, 'Be ye perfect as my Father in > Heaven is perfect.' This is an exhortation to his disciples to > purify themeselves, this is exactly what it is all about. Jesus was > obviously a Raja Yogi and Vedantist, it seeps through all of the > Gospels and Sermon on the Mount.> I know this is hard but unless we are perfect there can by no > Moksha. No short cuts.............ONS....Tony> *************> > Seems you are still an altar boy Tony. A very learned one knowing all the names of all the levels, angels and archangels.> You seem still to believe in 'original sin' and are still suffering the consequences of that destructive idea. Namaste,I think you are transposing your own ideas on to me. Original Sin is a very complicated idea. It actually means the separation of the sould from God. Or in Vedantic terms the formation of the Ego.My belief in being perfected is the belief of the Vedantists and Yogis that even one thought will bring you back and prevent moksha.................ONS...Nah... I was never an altar boy.. I knew even as a child that the stuff that the orthodox religionists were perpetrating as the 'Nature of God' was only the creation of a bigger adult in the sky who could punish you if their efforts failed. You can believe whatever you want, I only wanted to point out to you that you write it all as if it is the ultimate law, etc. Maybe others of us have had other just as valid experiences. I still think you have a priestly mind. Big club those Vedas. Bash, bash, bash. Sitting there trying very hard to have no thoughts is, I think, very difficult if not impossible. There are gentler descriptions of this process. What is wrong with thought? It is also a gift of God. Mozart heard his melodies in his mind first. When I was studying mathematics I was constantly amazed at the creative capacities of my deeper mind. Think and think, this way and that way about a problem. No result. Go to sleep and in the morning you KNOW the answer. Amazing. I believe that is the way enlightenment also happens. It is how Nisargadatta describes his own coming to self-realization. That was the purification. You can call it purification if you like, but that word implies its opposite, impurity. Now, maybe the Vedic meaning of impurity is the separation of the soul (whatever that is) from God. But the way most of were taught to think about it was to abhor impure thoughts.. (You know all that sex stuff and bodily fluids, and juicy emotions like hate, and anger, and jealousy that are so natural that they just don't seem to want to go away). Like many people you have misunderstood Osho's emphasis on the living out of sexuality and repressed feelings in groups. It is all so titillating and easy to laugh at from our repressions and mistaken ideas about purity. His emphasis was always on meditation. But, being a very practical man, he knew that it is very difficult for repressed individuals, to meditate while their minds are churning with unlived life. Even in ordinary life, a good sexual experience with a partner leaves one feeling, whole, and calm and meditative. And peace often returns to the household after a good, honest emotional fight. It is the common experience and just plain common sense. It is all about the meditation. Meditation is the medication. I much prefer the approach of living a natural life and creating the distance that advaita encourages between the 'person' and the consciousness in which everything takes place. That is the purity without an opposite. You missed so much in the last letter I wrote to you, maybe you should read it again. Me not interested in theology. Of any kind. You look for signs of whether this one is a muktah or that one is a bodhisattva when all that matters is your own consciousness. These words are from my heart Tony. Namaste, Sam /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 > > > > Seems you are still an altar boy Tony. A very learned one > knowing all the names of all the levels, angels and archangels. > > You seem still to believe in 'original sin' and are still > suffering the consequences of that destructive idea. > > Namaste, > > I think you are transposing your own ideas on to me. Original Sin is > a very complicated idea. It actually means the separation of the > sould from God. Or in Vedantic terms the formation of the Ego. > My belief in being perfected is the belief of the Vedantists and > Yogis that even one thought will bring you back and prevent > moksha.................ONS...> Nah... I was never an altar boy.. I knew even as a child that the stuff that the orthodox religionists were perpetrating as the 'Nature of God' was only the creation of a bigger adult in the sky who could punish you if their efforts failed. > > You can believe whatever you want, I only wanted to point out to you that you write it all as if it is the ultimate law, etc. > > Maybe others of us have had other just as valid experiences. > > I still think you have a priestly mind. Big club those Vedas. > Bash, bash, bash. Sitting there trying very hard to have no thoughts is, I think, very difficult if not impossible. There are gentler descriptions of this process. > > What is wrong with thought? It is also a gift of God. Mozart heard his melodies in his mind first. > When I was studying mathematics I was constantly amazed at the creative capacities of my deeper mind. > Think and think, this way and that way about a problem. No result. Go to sleep and in the morning you KNOW the answer. Amazing. > > I believe that is the way enlightenment also happens. It is how Nisargadatta describes his own coming to self-realization. That was the purification. > > You can call it purification if you like, but that word implies its opposite, impurity. > > Now, maybe the Vedic meaning of impurity is the separation of the soul (whatever that is) from God. But the way most of were taught to think about it was to abhor impure thoughts.. (You know all that sex stuff and bodily fluids, and juicy emotions like hate, and anger, and jealousy that are so natural that they just don't seem to want to go away). > > Like many people you have misunderstood Osho's emphasis on the living out of sexuality and repressed feelings in groups. It is all so titillating and easy to laugh at from our repressions and mistaken ideas about purity. > > His emphasis was always on meditation. But, being a very practical man, he knew that it is very difficult for repressed individuals, to meditate while their minds are churning with unlived life. > > Even in ordinary life, a good sexual experience with a partner leaves one feeling, whole, and calm and meditative. And peace often returns to the household after a good, honest emotional fight. > It is the common experience and just plain common sense. It is all about the meditation. > > Meditation is the medication. > > I much prefer the approach of living a natural life and creating the distance that advaita encourages between the > 'person' and the consciousness in which everything takes place. That is the purity without an opposite. > > You missed so much in the last letter I wrote to you, maybe you should read it again. Me not interested in theology. Of any kind. You look for signs of whether this one is a muktah or that one is a bodhisattva when all that matters is your own consciousness. These words are from my heart Tony. > > Namaste, Sam Namaste S, You are mistaking my direct nature and blunt manner for 'bashing'. With regard to Osho, I disagree with his philosophy on sex for it is like pouring oil on a fire, it doesn't put it out. It is a bodily function like eating and defecating, but does involve emotional attachments. That is the answer right there Attachment. Perhaps you are misunderstanding my premise that Moksha isn't possible with a mind.........ONS..Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 - Tony OClery Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:13 PM Re: Nobody can be that perfect > > > > Seems you are still an altar boy Tony. A very learned one > knowing all the names of all the levels, angels and archangels.> > You seem still to believe in 'original sin' and are still > suffering the consequences of that destructive idea. > > Namaste,> > I think you are transposing your own ideas on to me. Original Sin is > a very complicated idea. It actually means the separation of the > sould from God. Or in Vedantic terms the formation of the Ego.> My belief in being perfected is the belief of the Vedantists and > Yogis that even one thought will bring you back and prevent > moksha.................ONS...Tony > Nah... I was never an altar boy.. I knew even as a child that the stuff that the orthodox religionists were perpetrating as the 'Nature of God' was only the creation of a bigger adult in the sky who could punish you if their efforts failed. > > You can believe whatever you want, I only wanted to point out to you that you write it all as if it is the ultimate law, etc.> > Maybe others of us have had other just as valid experiences.> > I still think you have a priestly mind. Big club those Vedas.> Bash, bash, bash. Sitting there trying very hard to have no thoughts is, I think, very difficult if not impossible. There are gentler descriptions of this process. > > What is wrong with thought? It is also a gift of God. Mozart heard his melodies in his mind first. > When I was studying mathematics I was constantly amazed at the creative capacities of my deeper mind. > Think and think, this way and that way about a problem. No result. Go to sleep and in the morning you KNOW the answer. Amazing.> > I believe that is the way enlightenment also happens. It is how Nisargadatta describes his own coming to self-realization. That was the purification. > > You can call it purification if you like, but that word implies its opposite, impurity.> > Now, maybe the Vedic meaning of impurity is the separation of the soul (whatever that is) from God. But the way most of were taught to think about it was to abhor impure thoughts.. (You know all that sex stuff and bodily fluids, and juicy emotions like hate, and anger, and jealousy that are so natural that they just don't seem to want to go away). > > Like many people you have misunderstood Osho's emphasis on the living out of sexuality and repressed feelings in groups. It is all so titillating and easy to laugh at from our repressions and mistaken ideas about purity. > > His emphasis was always on meditation. But, being a very practical man, he knew that it is very difficult for repressed individuals, to meditate while their minds are churning with unlived life. > > Even in ordinary life, a good sexual experience with a partner leaves one feeling, whole, and calm and meditative. And peace often returns to the household after a good, honest emotional fight. > It is the common experience and just plain common sense. It is all about the meditation. > > Meditation is the medication. > > I much prefer the approach of living a natural life and creating the distance that advaita encourages between the > 'person' and the consciousness in which everything takes place. That is the purity without an opposite. > > You missed so much in the last letter I wrote to you, maybe you should read it again. Me not interested in theology. Of any kind. You look for signs of whether this one is a muktah or that one is a bodhisattva when all that matters is your own consciousness. These words are from my heart Tony. > > Namaste, SamNamaste S,You are mistaking my direct nature and blunt manner for 'bashing'. With regard to Osho, I disagree with his philosophy on sex for it is like pouring oil on a fire, it doesn't put it out. It is a bodily function like eating and defecating, but does involve emotional attachments. That is the answer right there Attachment.Perhaps you are misunderstanding my premise that Moksha isn't possible with a mind.........ONS..++++++++++++++++++++++++++= Is that your actual experience, that encouraging people to live out their sexuality is like pouring oil on a fire? This can only be the thought of a very repressed mind that cannot imagine the calming effects of satisfaction. It seems to imply that most humans are insatiable sex-maniacs. Yes, perhaps in a few distorted and extreme cases, just as eating can become gluttony. Don't quite understand what you mean when you say that Attachment is the answer. Wanna say more about that please? As to your direct nature and blunt manner, that's no problem. It is your insistence that what you say is the 'only way' that I call bashing. I understand your premise. And again it all depends on what you mean by 'with a mind'. What I have read and experienced is that the mind is a great servant but a lousy master. What exactly do you want to be free of? Is it not identification with your thinking processes? It cannot be the mind itself, conscious and unconscious. You could not live for a single second, your heart would forget to beat. I love chess, hard to play it without a mind. I love music, nice to listen in silence with the mind not disturbing. If by attachment you mean the idea that 'you' are your mind, thinking of it as yours, then I completely agree with you. The mind itself is such marvelous instrument. Such a precious gift. To me Moksha is liberation from the fixed idea that you are the mind. Don't you remember the 'rush' that comes with understanding something? Like seeing the light. The mind expanding with the new. Wonderful. There is so much confusion and misunderstanding around this subject. Schools almost force their students to identify with their minds by grading, performance orientation, giving prizes and so on. I think it is a very rare education that helps people to understand the wonder of consciousness working in them, that everyone is a process and not a thing that can be graded. Isn't that one of the reasons that we started our search for wisdom? Your search has brought you to the Vedas, mine wound around, like everyone's from Natchez to Mobile, and eventually and with great joy brought me to Osho and to advaita. When I first heard the story of the procrustean bed as a kid it made me laugh a lot. It was funny. Little did I know then that it is a parable for what people actually do to each other especially in the realm of spirituality and religion. namaste and a friendly wink from, Sam /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 , Sam <S> attachments. That is the answer right there Attachment. > > Perhaps you are misunderstanding my premise that Moksha isn't > possible with a mind.........ONS..> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++= > > Is that your actual experience, that encouraging people to live out their sexuality is like pouring oil on a fire? > > This can only be the thought of a very repressed mind that cannot imagine the calming effects of satisfaction. It seems to imply that most humans are insatiable sex-maniacs. > > Yes, perhaps in a few distorted and extreme cases, just as eating can become gluttony. > > Don't quite understand what you mean when you say that Attachment is the answer. Wanna say more about that please? > > As to your direct nature and blunt manner, that's no problem. It is your insistence that what you say is the 'only way' that I call bashing. > > I understand your premise. And again it all depends on what you mean by 'with a mind'. > > What I have read and experienced is that the mind is a great servant but a lousy master. > > What exactly do you want to be free of? Is it not identification with your thinking processes? It cannot be the mind itself, conscious and unconscious. You could not live for a single second, your heart would forget to beat. > > I love chess, hard to play it without a mind. I love music, nice to listen in silence with the mind not disturbing. > > If by attachment you mean the idea that 'you' are your mind, thinking of it as yours, then I completely agree with you. > > The mind itself is such marvelous instrument. Such a precious gift. To me Moksha is liberation from the fixed idea that you are the mind. > > Don't you remember the 'rush' that comes with understanding something? Like seeing the light. The mind expanding with the new. Wonderful. > > There is so much confusion and misunderstanding around this subject. Schools almost force their students to identify with their minds by grading, performance orientation, giving prizes and so on. I think it is a very rare education that helps people to understand the wonder of consciousness working in them, that everyone is a process and not a thing that can be graded. Isn't that one of the reasons that we started our search for wisdom? > > Your search has brought you to the Vedas, mine wound around, like everyone's from Natchez to Mobile, and eventually and with great joy brought me to Osho and to advaita. > > When I first heard the story of the procrustean bed as a kid it made me laugh a lot. It was funny. Little did I know then that it is a parable for what people actually do to each other especially in the realm of spirituality and religion. > > > > namaste and a friendly wink from, Sam Namaste, this is from a different site perhaps you should read some stuff there. viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:18 pm The Nature of The Self - [ Q: How then does ignorance of this one and only reality unhappily arise in the case of the ajnani (one who has not realised the Self)? Sri Ramana Maharshi: The ajnani sees only the mind, which is a mere reflection of the light of pure consciousness arising from the Heart. Of the Heart itself he is ignorant. Why? Because his mind is extroverted and he never sought its source. Q: What prevents the infinite, undifferentiated light of consciousness arising from the Heart from revealing itself to the ajnani? A: Just as water in a pot reflects the enormous sun within the narrow limits of the pot, even so the Vasanas or latent tendencies of the mind of the individual, acting as the reflecting medium, catch the all-pervading infinite light of consciousness arising from the Heart. The form of this reflection is the phenomenon called the mind. Seeing only this reflection, the ajnani is deluded into the belief that he is a finite being, the jiva, the individual self. Q: What are the obstacles, which hinder realisation of the Self? A: They are habits of mind (vasanas). Q: How to overcome the mental habits (vasanas)? A: By realising the Self. Q: This is a vicious circle. A: It is the ego, which raises such difficulties, creating obstacles and then suffering from the perplexity of apparent paradoxes. Find out who makes the enquiries and the Self will be found. Q: Why is this mental bondage so persistent? A: The nature of bondage is merely the rising, ruinous thought `I am different from the reality'. Since one surely cannot remain separate from the reality, reject that thought whenever it rises. Q: Why do I never remember that I am the Self? A: People speak of memory and oblivion of the fullness of the Self. Oblivion and memory are only thought-forms. They will alternate so long as there are thoughts. But reality lies beyond these. Memory and oblivion must be dependent on something. That something must be foreign to the Self as well, otherwise there would not be oblivion. That upon which memory and oblivion depend is the idea of the individual self. When one looks for it, this individual `I' is not found because it is not real. Hence this 'I'` is synonymous with illusion or ignorance (Maya, Avidya or Ajnana). To know that there never was ignorance is the goal of all the spiritual teachings. Ignorance must be of one who is aware. Awareness is jnana (knowledge). Jnana is eternal and natural, ajnana is unnatural and unreal. Q: having heard this truth, why does not one remain content? A: Because Samskaras (innate mental tendencies) have not been destroyed. Unless the samskaras cease to exist, there will always be doubt and confusion. All efforts are directed to destroying doubt and confusion. To do so their roots must be cut. Their roots are the samskaras. These are rendered ineffective by practice as prescribed by the Guru. The Guru leaves it to the seeker to do this much so that he might himself find out that there is no ignorance. Hearing the truth (Sravana) is the first stage. If the understanding is not firm one has to practise reflection (Manana) and uninterrupted contemplation (Nididhyasana) on it. These two processes scorch the seeds of samskaras so that they are rendered ineffective. Some extraordinary people get unshakable jnana after hearing the truth only once. These are the advanced seekers. Beginners take longer to gain it. from BE AS YOU ARE, David Godman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Namaskaram, there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the killing of the mind or living without thoughts. It does not mean that one turns into a senseless zomby. Stillness of mind or the thoughtless state means that the mind does not go out and react to outside stimulation of its own accord as in a normal person, where thoughts go on in endless turns. The advanced seeker makes an effort to think with a one pointed mind and as soon as the matter is thought out, thoughts stop and the mind sinks back into its source. warm regards christina On Feb 25, 2004, at 20:34, Tony OClery wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <l.gif> > > > > • > > > • > > > • > > Monsoonhouse Int. Kovalam/Kerala contact: christianecameron Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Two questions Tony.. How does one 'get rid of samskaras'? And the second: What do you mean by attachement? Cheers.. Tony OClery Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:34 PM Re: Nobody can be that perfect , Sam <S> attachments. That is the answer right there Attachment.> > Perhaps you are misunderstanding my premise that Moksha isn't > possible with a mind.........ONS..Tony> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++=> > Is that your actual experience, that encouraging people to live out their sexuality is like pouring oil on a fire? > > This can only be the thought of a very repressed mind that cannot imagine the calming effects of satisfaction. It seems to imply that most humans are insatiable sex-maniacs. > > Yes, perhaps in a few distorted and extreme cases, just as eating can become gluttony. > > Don't quite understand what you mean when you say that Attachment is the answer. Wanna say more about that please?> > As to your direct nature and blunt manner, that's no problem. It is your insistence that what you say is the 'only way' that I call bashing. > > I understand your premise. And again it all depends on what you mean by 'with a mind'. > > What I have read and experienced is that the mind is a great servant but a lousy master. > > What exactly do you want to be free of? Is it not identification with your thinking processes? It cannot be the mind itself, conscious and unconscious. You could not live for a single second, your heart would forget to beat. > > I love chess, hard to play it without a mind. I love music, nice to listen in silence with the mind not disturbing. > > If by attachment you mean the idea that 'you' are your mind, thinking of it as yours, then I completely agree with you. > > The mind itself is such marvelous instrument. Such a precious gift. To me Moksha is liberation from the fixed idea that you are the mind. > > Don't you remember the 'rush' that comes with understanding something? Like seeing the light. The mind expanding with the new. Wonderful. > > There is so much confusion and misunderstanding around this subject. Schools almost force their students to identify with their minds by grading, performance orientation, giving prizes and so on. I think it is a very rare education that helps people to understand the wonder of consciousness working in them, that everyone is a process and not a thing that can be graded. Isn't that one of the reasons that we started our search for wisdom? > > Your search has brought you to the Vedas, mine wound around, like everyone's from Natchez to Mobile, and eventually and with great joy brought me to Osho and to advaita. > > When I first heard the story of the procrustean bed as a kid it made me laugh a lot. It was funny. Little did I know then that it is a parable for what people actually do to each other especially in the realm of spirituality and religion. > > > > namaste and a friendly wink from, SamNamaste, this is from a different site perhaps you should read some stuff there.viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:18 pm The Nature of The Self - [ Q: How then does ignorance of this one and only reality unhappily arise in the case of the ajnani (one who has not realised the Self)?Sri Ramana Maharshi: The ajnani sees only the mind, which is a mere reflection of the light of pure consciousness arising from the Heart. Of the Heart itself he is ignorant. Why? Because his mind is extroverted and he never sought its source.Q: What prevents the infinite, undifferentiated light of consciousness arising from the Heart from revealing itself to the ajnani?A: Just as water in a pot reflects the enormous sun within the narrow limits of the pot, even so the Vasanas or latent tendencies of the mind of the individual, acting as the reflecting medium, catch the all-pervading infinite light of consciousness arising from the Heart. The form of this reflection is the phenomenon called the mind. Seeing only this reflection, the ajnani is deluded into the belief that he is a finite being, the jiva, the individual self.Q: What are the obstacles, which hinder realisation of the Self?A: They are habits of mind (vasanas).Q: How to overcome the mental habits (vasanas)?A: By realising the Self.Q: This is a vicious circle.A: It is the ego, which raises such difficulties, creating obstacles and then suffering from the perplexity of apparent paradoxes. Find out who makes the enquiries and the Self will be found.Q: Why is this mental bondage so persistent?A: The nature of bondage is merely the rising, ruinous thought `I am different from the reality'. Since one surely cannot remain separate from the reality, reject that thought whenever it rises.Q: Why do I never remember that I am the Self?A: People speak of memory and oblivion of the fullness of the Self. Oblivion and memory are only thought-forms. They will alternate so long as there are thoughts. But reality lies beyond these. Memory and oblivion must be dependent on something. That something must be foreign to the Self as well, otherwise there would not be oblivion. That upon which memory and oblivion depend is the idea of the individual self. When one looks for it, this individual `I' is not found because it is not real. Hence this 'I'` is synonymous with illusion or ignorance (Maya, Avidya or Ajnana). To know that there never was ignorance is the goal of all the spiritual teachings. Ignorance must be of one who is aware. Awareness is jnana (knowledge). Jnana is eternal and natural, ajnana is unnatural and unreal. Q: having heard this truth, why does not one remain content?A: Because Samskaras (innate mental tendencies) have not been destroyed. Unless the samskaras cease to exist, there will always be doubt and confusion. All efforts are directed to destroying doubt and confusion. To do so their roots must be cut. Their roots are the samskaras. These are rendered ineffective by practice as prescribed by the Guru. The Guru leaves it to the seeker to do this much so that he might himself find out that there is no ignorance. Hearing the truth (Sravana) is the first stage. If the understanding is not firm one has to practise reflection (Manana) and uninterrupted contemplation (Nididhyasana) on it. These two processes scorch the seeds of samskaras so that they are rendered ineffective.Some extraordinary people get unshakable jnana after hearing the truth only once.These are the advanced seekers. Beginners take longer to gain it.from BE AS YOU ARE, David Godman /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 , Sam <S.Pasiencier@p...> wrote: > > Two questions Tony.. How does one 'get rid of samskaras'? And the second: What do you mean by attachement? Namaste, One had to use a Sadhana, for example meditation is raising one thought that subsumes all others. As Krishna and many others have said the problem is Desire. Desire creates attachments, this has to be weakened. http://www.geocities.com/aoclery/PurificationofBuddhi.htm The senses are that which keep is in bondage, rise above these and live in surrender or nishkarma karma is the way advised. There are stages, and roles, of life of course, and saying don't have sex too much to a newly married or young person, falls on deaf ears, unless they are on a strong spiritual path already. One should take a middle road like the Buddha advised and weaken attachments. ...ONS..Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Yep --- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: > , Sam > <S.Pasiencier@p...> wrote: > > > > - > > Tony OClery > > > > Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:36 PM > > Nobody can be that > perfect > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > I remember many many years ago my mother > telling me that nobody > > could be as perfect as Jesus for he was the Son > of God etc. I > > wondered why not? As Jesus says, 'Be ye perfect > as my Father in > > Heaven is perfect.' This is an exhortation to > his disciples to > > purify themeselves, this is exactly what it is > all about. Jesus > was > > obviously a Raja Yogi and Vedantist, it seeps > through all of the > > Gospels and Sermon on the Mount. > > I know this is hard but unless we are perfect > there can by no > > Moksha. No short cuts.............ONS....> > ************* > > > > Seems you are still an altar boy Tony. A very > learned one > knowing all the names of all the levels, angels and > archangels. > > You seem still to believe in 'original sin' and > are still > suffering the consequences of that destructive idea. > > > > > Just for fun I could ask you what you mean here > by the word > perfect. > > > > A Zen master, can't remember who, maybe Bankei, > was telling the > students that everything was perfect as it is. A > hunchback stood up > and in protest showed his hunched back and asked: > 'What about this > back of mine?'. The master answered: 'That is the > most perfect > hunched back I have ever seen'. , > > What you write above is only the tyranny of the > priests. Haven't > you have enough of that? > > > > No one can stop you from suffering the > consequences of your own > ideas, but you insist on wanting to make them into > universal laws, > your very own priestly mind. > > > > All these years of searching for perfection. One > wants to hold > on to something doesn't one? Something to show for > it. > > > > It's hard to be flat broke. > > > > The innocent, perfect child you were before you > absorbed all > these ideals, was, is and always will be already > perfect. > > > > Have you looked into a child's eyes lately? > > > > Can there be more perfection? > > > > Namaste, Sam > Namaste S, > > It takes purification of the mind from its vasanas > and samskaras, to > realise everything is already > perfect..........ONS..> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 --- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: SNIP > You are mistaking my direct nature and blunt manner > for 'bashing'. > With regard to Osho, I disagree with his philosophy > on sex for it is > like pouring oil on a fire, it doesn't put it out. > It is a bodily > function like eating and defecating, but does > involve emotional > attachments. That is the answer right there > Attachment. > > Perhaps you are misunderstanding my premise that > Moksha isn't > possible with a mind.........ONS..> > > Please consider the following quote from The Panchadasi of Sri Vidyaranya Swami. For those unacquainted with some of the more obscure Vedantic texts, the Panchadasi is regarded to be one of the foremost advaitic treatises. Panchadasi, Chapter 7, verse 250: As the tenth man cures his wounds by applying medicines, so the knower wears out his fructifying Karma by enjoyment and is ultimately liberated. michael says: Be as you are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 , Michael Bowes <rmichaelbowes> wrote: > > --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote: > > SNIP > > > You are mistaking my direct nature and blunt manner > > for 'bashing'. > > With regard to Osho, I disagree with his philosophy > > on sex for it is > > like pouring oil on a fire, it doesn't put it out. > > It is a bodily > > function like eating and defecating, but does > > involve emotional > > attachments. That is the answer right there > > Attachment. > > > > Perhaps you are misunderstanding my premise that > > Moksha isn't > > possible with a mind.........ONS..> > > > > > > Please consider the following quote from The > Panchadasi of Sri Vidyaranya Swami. For those > unacquainted with some of the more obscure Vedantic > texts, the Panchadasi is regarded to be one of the > foremost advaitic treatises. > > Panchadasi, Chapter 7, verse 250: > > As the tenth man cures his wounds by applying > medicines, so the knower wears out his fructifying > Karma by enjoyment and is ultimately liberated. > > michael says: Be as you are Namaste, I think that is a little deeper than it looks, well I hope so anyway.The enjoyment is over many lifetimes but it is qualified by grief as well. So like the Buddha said all is Dukkha, all enjoyment carries with it the pain of it being lost. However I would prefer to read this as enjoyment and not self indulgence which is a different thing altogether. What is the literal Sanskrit.............ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 of course slowly but surely desires drops after realizing that they are the root of our conflicts and after realizing that our senses as wonderful as they are and we have to be grateful for them they still are "illusions" in my long long troubling experiences I recognized the following if I do not listen to the subtle subtle subtel inner voice I got astray if I d o listen I am "home" no ups and downs no attachment no desire just real happiness LOVE MICHAEL BINDEL - Tony OClery Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:47 PM Re: Nobody can be that perfect , Sam <S.Pasiencier@p...> wrote:> > Two questions Tony.. How does one 'get rid of samskaras'? And the second: What do you mean by attachement?Namaste,One had to use a Sadhana, for example meditation is raising one thought that subsumes all others. As Krishna and many others have said the problem is Desire. Desire creates attachments, this has to be weakened.http://www.geocities.com/aoclery/PurificationofBuddhi.htmThe senses are that which keep is in bondage, rise above these and live in surrender or nishkarma karma is the way advised.There are stages, and roles, of life of course, and saying don't have sex too much to a newly married or young person, falls on deaf ears, unless they are on a strong spiritual path already. One should take a middle road like the Buddha advised and weaken attachments. ....ONS..Tony/join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 christiane and afterwards the wonderful blessing of BEING MICHAEL BINDEL - christiane cameron Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:56 PM Re: Re: Nobody can be that perfect Namaskaram,there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the killing of the mind or living without thoughts.It does not mean that one turns into a senseless zomby. Stillness of mind or the thoughtless state means that the mind does not go out and react to outside stimulation of its own accord as in a normal person, where thoughts go on in endless turns. The advanced seeker makes an effort to think with a one pointed mind and as soon as the matter is thought out, thoughts stop and the mind sinks back into its source. warm regardschristinaOn Feb 25, 2004, at 20:34, Tony OClery wrote: color>color><l.gif>• • • color>Monsoonhouse Int.KovalamKeralacontact: christianecameron (AT) mac (DOT) com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 sam thank you great michael bindel - Sam Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:26 PM Re: Re: Nobody can be that perfect - Tony OClery Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:13 PM Re: Nobody can be that perfect > > > > Seems you are still an altar boy Tony. A very learned one > knowing all the names of all the levels, angels and archangels.> > You seem still to believe in 'original sin' and are still > suffering the consequences of that destructive idea. > > Namaste,> > I think you are transposing your own ideas on to me. Original Sin is > a very complicated idea. It actually means the separation of the > sould from God. Or in Vedantic terms the formation of the Ego.> My belief in being perfected is the belief of the Vedantists and > Yogis that even one thought will bring you back and prevent > moksha.................ONS...Tony > Nah... I was never an altar boy.. I knew even as a child that the stuff that the orthodox religionists were perpetrating as the 'Nature of God' was only the creation of a bigger adult in the sky who could punish you if their efforts failed. > > You can believe whatever you want, I only wanted to point out to you that you write it all as if it is the ultimate law, etc.> > Maybe others of us have had other just as valid experiences.> > I still think you have a priestly mind. Big club those Vedas.> Bash, bash, bash. Sitting there trying very hard to have no thoughts is, I think, very difficult if not impossible. There are gentler descriptions of this process. > > What is wrong with thought? It is also a gift of God. Mozart heard his melodies in his mind first. > When I was studying mathematics I was constantly amazed at the creative capacities of my deeper mind. > Think and think, this way and that way about a problem. No result. Go to sleep and in the morning you KNOW the answer. Amazing.> > I believe that is the way enlightenment also happens. It is how Nisargadatta describes his own coming to self-realization. That was the purification. > > You can call it purification if you like, but that word implies its opposite, impurity.> > Now, maybe the Vedic meaning of impurity is the separation of the soul (whatever that is) from God. But the way most of were taught to think about it was to abhor impure thoughts.. (You know all that sex stuff and bodily fluids, and juicy emotions like hate, and anger, and jealousy that are so natural that they just don't seem to want to go away). > > Like many people you have misunderstood Osho's emphasis on the living out of sexuality and repressed feelings in groups. It is all so titillating and easy to laugh at from our repressions and mistaken ideas about purity. > > His emphasis was always on meditation. But, being a very practical man, he knew that it is very difficult for repressed individuals, to meditate while their minds are churning with unlived life. > > Even in ordinary life, a good sexual experience with a partner leaves one feeling, whole, and calm and meditative. And peace often returns to the household after a good, honest emotional fight. > It is the common experience and just plain common sense. It is all about the meditation. > > Meditation is the medication. > > I much prefer the approach of living a natural life and creating the distance that advaita encourages between the > 'person' and the consciousness in which everything takes place. That is the purity without an opposite. > > You missed so much in the last letter I wrote to you, maybe you should read it again. Me not interested in theology. Of any kind. You look for signs of whether this one is a muktah or that one is a bodhisattva when all that matters is your own consciousness. These words are from my heart Tony. > > Namaste, SamNamaste S,You are mistaking my direct nature and blunt manner for 'bashing'. With regard to Osho, I disagree with his philosophy on sex for it is like pouring oil on a fire, it doesn't put it out. It is a bodily function like eating and defecating, but does involve emotional attachments. That is the answer right there Attachment.Perhaps you are misunderstanding my premise that Moksha isn't possible with a mind.........ONS..++++++++++++++++++++++++++= Is that your actual experience, that encouraging people to live out their sexuality is like pouring oil on a fire? This can only be the thought of a very repressed mind that cannot imagine the calming effects of satisfaction. It seems to imply that most humans are insatiable sex-maniacs. Yes, perhaps in a few distorted and extreme cases, just as eating can become gluttony. Don't quite understand what you mean when you say that Attachment is the answer. Wanna say more about that please? As to your direct nature and blunt manner, that's no problem. It is your insistence that what you say is the 'only way' that I call bashing. I understand your premise. And again it all depends on what you mean by 'with a mind'. What I have read and experienced is that the mind is a great servant but a lousy master. What exactly do you want to be free of? Is it not identification with your thinking processes? It cannot be the mind itself, conscious and unconscious. You could not live for a single second, your heart would forget to beat. I love chess, hard to play it without a mind. I love music, nice to listen in silence with the mind not disturbing. If by attachment you mean the idea that 'you' are your mind, thinking of it as yours, then I completely agree with you. The mind itself is such marvelous instrument. Such a precious gift. To me Moksha is liberation from the fixed idea that you are the mind. Don't you remember the 'rush' that comes with understanding something? Like seeing the light. The mind expanding with the new. Wonderful. There is so much confusion and misunderstanding around this subject. Schools almost force their students to identify with their minds by grading, performance orientation, giving prizes and so on. I think it is a very rare education that helps people to understand the wonder of consciousness working in them, that everyone is a process and not a thing that can be graded. Isn't that one of the reasons that we started our search for wisdom? Your search has brought you to the Vedas, mine wound around, like everyone's from Natchez to Mobile, and eventually and with great joy brought me to Osho and to advaita. When I first heard the story of the procrustean bed as a kid it made me laugh a lot. It was funny. Little did I know then that it is a parable for what people actually do to each other especially in the realm of spirituality and religion. namaste and a friendly wink from, Sam /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 - Tony OClery Thursday, February 26, 2004 1:03 AM Re: Nobody can be that perfect , Michael Bowes <rmichaelbowes> wrote:> > --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote:> > SNIP> > > You are mistaking my direct nature and blunt manner> > for 'bashing'. > > With regard to Osho, I disagree with his philosophy> > on sex for it is > > like pouring oil on a fire, it doesn't put it out.> > It is a bodily > > function like eating and defecating, but does> > involve emotional > > attachments. That is the answer right there> > Attachment.> > > > Perhaps you are misunderstanding my premise that> > Moksha isn't > > possible with a mind.........ONS..Tony> > > > > > > Please consider the following quote from The> Panchadasi of Sri Vidyaranya Swami. For those> unacquainted with some of the more obscure Vedantic> texts, the Panchadasi is regarded to be one of the> foremost advaitic treatises.> > Panchadasi, Chapter 7, verse 250:> > As the tenth man cures his wounds by applying> medicines, so the knower wears out his fructifying> Karma by enjoyment and is ultimately liberated.> > michael says: Be as you areNamaste,I think that is a little deeper than it looks, well I hope so anyway.The enjoyment is over many lifetimes but it is qualified by grief as well. So like the Buddha said all is Dukkha, all enjoyment carries with it the pain of it being lost.However I would prefer to read this as enjoyment and not self indulgence which is a different thing altogether. What is the literal Sanskrit.............ONS... When the going gets tough... that's when the tough get going.. /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 --- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: > , Michael Bowes > > <rmichaelbowes> wrote: > > > > --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote: > > > > SNIP > > > > > You are mistaking my direct nature and blunt > manner > > > for 'bashing'. > > > With regard to Osho, I disagree with his > philosophy > > > on sex for it is > > > like pouring oil on a fire, it doesn't put it > out. > > > It is a bodily > > > function like eating and defecating, but does > > > involve emotional > > > attachments. That is the answer right there > > > Attachment. > > > > > > Perhaps you are misunderstanding my premise that > > > Moksha isn't > > > possible with a mind.........ONS..> > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the following quote from The > > Panchadasi of Sri Vidyaranya Swami. For those > > unacquainted with some of the more obscure > Vedantic > > texts, the Panchadasi is regarded to be one of the > > foremost advaitic treatises. > > > > Panchadasi, Chapter 7, verse 250: > > > > As the tenth man cures his wounds by applying > > medicines, so the knower wears out his fructifying > > Karma by enjoyment and is ultimately liberated. > > > > michael says: Be as you are > > Namaste, > > I think that is a little deeper than it looks, well > I hope so > anyway.The enjoyment is over many lifetimes but it > is qualified by > grief as well. So like the Buddha said all is > Dukkha, all enjoyment > carries with it the pain of it being lost. > > However I would prefer to read this as enjoyment and > not self > indulgence which is a different thing altogether. > What is the > literal Sanskrit.............ONS...> Panchadasi, Chapter 7, verse 252-254: The satisfaction by external objects is limited, but the satisfaction of liberation in life is unlimited. The satisfaction of direct knowledge engenders the feeling that all that was to be achieved has been achieved, and all that was to be enjoyed has been enjoyed. Before realization one has many duties to perform in order to acquire worldly and celestial advantages and also as an aid to ultimate release; but with the rise of knowledge of Brahman, they are as good as already done, for nothing further remains to be done. The Jivanmukta always feels supreme self-satisfaction by constantly keeping in view his former state and present state of freedom from wants and duties. michael says: Relax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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