Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Ben wrote... The marvellous bird of sadhana has two wings: jnana and bhakti. In my opinion the bhakti aspect deserves more attention. Bhakti (surrender) is the blazing fire of Love that evaporates all tears, sorrow and doubts. =================================================================== I thought you just wrote a few posts back that you did not know what bhakti was :-) I have no opinion on which deserves more attention since for each person, the balance will differ. For you and for me, Bhakti rules. God's childish fools :-) For others, who choose to interpret Sri Ramana as they see fit, jnana is an intellectual pursuit. Who is to say which is the "best" way? Even Ramana, who was known to emphasize the "method" inherent in Self Enquiry, said again and again that bhakti and jnana are one and the same. "Bhakti is Jnana Mata" says Sri Ramana. Someone had posted the story in the link below on RamanaMaharshi group within the last few weeks. I had started working on a webpage link for it and then got diverted. Now seemed like a good time to go back... http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Two%20wings.htm Love, Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Love Joyce of course LOVE and JNANA are the same but to understand this i.e. live it you have to reached a "certain" point of "awareness hugs michael bindel - Lady Joyce Thursday, February 26, 2004 5:27 AM A Bird Cannot Fly Without Two Wings... Ben wrote... The marvellous bird of sadhana has two wings: jnana and bhakti. In my opinion the bhakti aspect deserves more attention. Bhakti (surrender) is the blazing fire of Love that evaporates all tears, sorrow and doubts. =================================================================== I thought you just wrote a few posts back that you did not know what bhakti was :-) I have no opinion on which deserves more attention since for each person, the balance will differ. For you and for me, Bhakti rules. God's childish fools :-) For others, who choose to interpret Sri Ramana as they see fit, jnana is an intellectual pursuit. Who is to say which is the "best" way? Even Ramana, who was known to emphasize the "method" inherent in Self Enquiry, said again and again that bhakti and jnana are one and the same. "Bhakti is Jnana Mata" says Sri Ramana. Someone had posted the story in the link below on RamanaMaharshi group within the last few weeks. I had started working on a webpage link for it and then got diverted. Now seemed like a good time to go back... http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Two%20wings.htm Love, Joyce /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 - Lady Joyce Thursday, February 26, 2004 5:27 AM A Bird Cannot Fly Without Two Wings... Ben wrote... The marvellous bird of sadhana has two wings: jnana and bhakti. In my opinion the bhakti aspect deserves more attention. Bhakti (surrender) is the blazing fire of Love that evaporates all tears, sorrow and doubts. =================================================================== I thought you just wrote a few posts back that you did not know what bhakti was :-) I have no opinion on which deserves more attention since for each person, the balance will differ. For you and for me, Bhakti rules. God's childish fools :-) For others, who choose to interpret Sri Ramana as they see fit, jnana is an intellectual pursuit. Who is to say which is the "best" way? Even Ramana, who was known to emphasize the "method" inherent in Self Enquiry, said again and again that bhakti and jnana are one and the same. "Bhakti is Jnana Mata" says Sri Ramana. Someone had posted the story in the link below on RamanaMaharshi group within the last few weeks. I had started working on a webpage link for it and then got diverted. Now seemed like a good time to go back... http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Two%20wings.htm Love, Joyce Dear Joyce, Yes I wrote that. But what I tried to say was more that all these categories, names and concepts, divide and confuse rather than enlighten. The biggest hindrance to peace might be the word "realisation" -- we create a goal and than start our long way of becoming it. In this becoming we kill "what is"; speaking of ahimsa... When I was living in the ashram of Sri Ramakrishna Mission and living with Swami Ritajananda I used to read only advaita vedanta and Krishnamurti. Swami told me to just repeat "hari om ramakrishna" instead. At the time I was a teenager and tought to myself the old man was cheating me and trying to make a bhakta out of me. I tried to follow his advice though, but after a couple of days I was reading Ashtavkra Gita, Ribhu Gita and K. again. It would confuse me more and more and drive me desparate. Until I was near Swami again and all questions would simply find their way back to the Heart where they came from. At the time I could not accept that the warm feeling in the Heart was what it was all about. Too simple for an advaitin like me... I was too proud of my concepts and intellectual grasp of vedanta. In my blindness and arrogance I had a low opinion of all these bhaktas chanting and reading only the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. To make this story complete we have to go back maybe a year before I went to Swami Ritajanda in the Gretz centre. In those days a friend of my mother introduced me to Sri Ramana after a couple of weeks testing my patience. He started with telling me to feel my way into the Heart. After that he said maybe next week I have a special book for you. -- He had one little book by Arthur Osborne on Sri Ramana and the path of Self-enquiry, but each time I visited him he would tell me that the next visit I would get the book. -- In the meantime I should try to feel my way into the Heart. In his presence I would intuite what he was talking about, I would become aware of the perfume of Joy flowering from the Heart. So when I was alone the only thing I would be doing was to follow this perfume, this newness into the Heart. This resulted in a couple of powerful awakenings, the curtain was lifted and I saw the primordial Light coming out of the Heart and all of the universe was this Light. I was this Light. After these awakenings my "mentor" gave me the book. Now I know why he did it this way. With Swami Ritajananda it was about the same old story. He could see right through me. My first encounter with him I cannot remember what happened. He looked me straight in the eyes and from that moment on I don't remember what happened. I only know that I walked back to the visitors building and that I was "drunk". Swami never gave me any instructions really. He only said: "hari om ramakrishna" and "be strong". I was living near a jivan mukta but still I was too arrogant and blind to see it was all a matter of "be quiet and feel your Heart". So reading all these books and filling my head with all the intellectual garbage only took me away from the Heart. That is why I said I don't know what bhakti is, to be more precise I was really saying: "I don't care for the word bhakti". As I see it many people get stuck in concepts today. I mean, all scriptures and teachers can be found just a mouseclick away. This has a dark side to it. It is easy to become addicted to reading, discussing, to concepts. All this book knowledge tends to make people arrogant and blinded for the simplicity of "what is". The voice of the Heart is burried under all these teachings, teachers, scriptures, do's and do not's. If people do not agree with "my teacher" or "my truth" or "my ahimsa" or "my advaita" they are "over there" and I am "here": division. This looks like an over-simplification, but to be honest with you I see this division very clearly happening in these lists and in all these discussions going on. There is also a lighter side to the availabilty on a massive scale of all these spiritual texts: to see that in the end it all boils down to same Truth and that this Truth can be found inside oneself to begin with. Speaking for myself, I don't have time to waste, life is short, time is running out, all that needs to be done for me is to get rid of all concepts and feel my way back into the Heart, Home. Let others decide what teacher is more enlightened, what teachings are more sacred and so on :-) Yours, Ben. /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Thanks for your posts , till recently I was also a confused person with all the concepts of 'Jnana' , 'Bhakti' and 'Karma' , after reading the following passage I am able to view things in correct perspective. " The Maharshi looked at me and asked, 'How did you come here from Madras?' I didn't see the point of his question, but I politely told him the answer : 'By train.' And what happened when you got to the station at Tiruvannamalai?' he enquired. 'Well, I got off the train, handed in my ticket and engaged a bullock cart to take me to the ashram.' And when you reached the ashram and paid off the driver of the cart, what happened to the cart?' It went away, presumably back to town,' I said, still not clear as to where this line of questioning was leading. The Maharshi then explained what he was driving at. The train brought you to your destination. You got off it because you didn't need it anymore. It had brought you to the place you wanted to reach. Likewise with the bullock cart. You got off it when it had brought you to Ramanasramam. You don't need either the train or the cart any more. They were the means for bringing you here. Now you are here, they are of no use to you. That is what has happened with your chanting. Your japa, your reading and your meditation have brought you to your spiritual destination. You don't need them any more. You yourself did not give up your practices; they left you of their own accord because they had served their purpose. You have arrived.' Love & Om DoraBen Hassine <ben.hassine (AT) xs4all (DOT) nl> wrote: - Lady Joyce Thursday, February 26, 2004 5:27 AM A Bird Cannot Fly Without Two Wings... Ben wrote... The marvellous bird of sadhana has two wings: jnana and bhakti. In my opinion the bhakti aspect deserves more attention. Bhakti (surrender) is the blazing fire of Love that evaporates all tears, sorrow and doubts. =================================================================== I thought you just wrote a few posts back that you did not know what bhakti was :-) I have no opinion on which deserves more attention since for each person, the balance will differ. For you and for me, Bhakti rules. God's childish fools :-) For others, who choose to interpret Sri Ramana as they see fit, jnana is an intellectual pursuit. Who is to say which is the "best" way? Even Ramana, who was known to emphasize the "method" inherent in Self Enquiry, said again and again that bhakti and jnana are one and the same. "Bhakti is Jnana Mata" says Sri Ramana. Someone had posted the story in the link below on RamanaMaharshi group within the last few weeks. I had started working on a webpage link for it and then got diverted. Now seemed like a good time to go back... http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Two%20wings.htm Love, Joyce Dear Joyce, Yes I wrote that. But what I tried to say was more that all these categories, names and concepts, divide and confuse rather than enlighten. The biggest hindrance to peace might be the word "realisation" -- we create a goal and than start our long way of becoming it. In this becoming we kill "what is"; speaking of ahimsa... When I was living in the ashram of Sri Ramakrishna Mission and living with Swami Ritajananda I used to read only advaita vedanta and Krishnamurti. Swami told me to just repeat "hari om ramakrishna" instead. At the time I was a teenager and tought to myself the old man was cheating me and trying to make a bhakta out of me. I tried to follow his advice though, but after a couple of days I was reading Ashtavkra Gita, Ribhu Gita and K. again. It would confuse me more and more and drive me desparate. Until I was near Swami again and all questions would simply find their way back to the Heart where they came from. At the time I could not accept that the warm feeling in the Heart was what it was all about. Too simple for an advaitin like me... I was too proud of my concepts and intellectual grasp of vedanta. In my blindness and arrogance I had a low opinion of all these bhaktas chanting and reading only the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. To make this story complete we have to go back maybe a year before I went to Swami Ritajanda in the Gretz centre. In those days a friend of my mother introduced me to Sri Ramana after a couple of weeks testing my patience. He started with telling me to feel my way into the Heart. After that he said maybe next week I have a special book for you. -- He had one little book by Arthur Osborne on Sri Ramana and the path of Self-enquiry, but each time I visited him he would tell me that the next visit I would get the book. -- In the meantime I should try to feel my way into the Heart. In his presence I would intuite what he was talking about, I would become aware of the perfume of Joy flowering from the Heart. So when I was alone the only thing I would be doing was to follow this perfume, this newness into the Heart. This resulted in a couple of powerful awakenings, the curtain was lifted and I saw the primordial Light coming out of the Heart and all of the universe was this Light. I was this Light. After these awakenings my "mentor" gave me the book. Now I know why he did it this way. With Swami Ritajananda it was about the same old story. He could see right through me. My first encounter with him I cannot remember what happened. He looked me straight in the eyes and from that moment on I don't remember what happened. I only know that I walked back to the visitors building and that I was "drunk". Swami never gave me any instructions really. He only said: "hari om ramakrishna" and "be strong". I was living near a jivan mukta but still I was too arrogant and blind to see it was all a matter of "be quiet and feel your Heart". So reading all these books and filling my head with all the intellectual garbage only took me away from the Heart. That is why I said I don't know what bhakti is, to be more precise I was really saying: "I don't care for the word bhakti". As I see it many people get stuck in concepts today. I mean, all scriptures and teachers can be found just a mouseclick away. This has a dark side to it. It is easy to become addicted to reading, discussing, to concepts. All this book knowledge tends to make people arrogant and blinded for the simplicity of "what is". The voice of the Heart is burried under all these teachings, teachers, scriptures, do's and do not's. If people do not agree with "my teacher" or "my truth" or "my ahimsa" or "my advaita" they are "over there" and I am "here": division. This looks like an over-simplification, but to be honest with you I see this division very clearly happening in these lists and in all these discussions going on. There is also a lighter side to the availabilty on a massive scale of all these spiritual texts: to see that in the end it all boils down to same Truth and that this Truth can be found inside oneself to begin with. Speaking for myself, I don't have time to waste, life is short, time is running out, all that needs to be done for me is to get rid of all concepts and feel my way back into the Heart, Home. Let others decide what teacher is more enlightened, what teachings are more sacred and so on :-) Yours, Ben. /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma India Insurance Special: Be informed on the best policies, services, tools and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Dear Dora, Thank you for the quote. I would like to make a little addition to what I wrote. The path I naturally found myself on was the path of atma-vichara. Without ever asking for it, my "mentor" found me in my teens and several awakenings occurred. Grace brought me to Swami Ritajananda and it was because of his intervention I was able to continue my sadhana without falling prey to the pitfalls of arrogance and self-delusion. I learned by his grace to never stop until the ego finally merges in the Heart. The awakenings were only pointers and encouragements. Many people have these awakenings and confuse them with genuine Self-realisation. These awakenings told me that I should continue my sadhana until there is no one left to do sadhana. For me sadhana is holding on to the I-thought or feeling of I am-ness. Experiences and awakenings may occur but they are only milestones. These awakenings (I like to call them embraces of the Friend) have to be understood as pointers. Because of all the reading we do we have huge expectations of what it will be like and it is tempting to take these blessed experiences for the final moment of liberation. I make no claims. Rather the opposite, I would like to encourage all people on the path of atma-vichara to forget all heard and learned and continue the quest with intensified zest. As I said, life is short, time is running out. A human birth is an opportunity for liberation, so I try hard to make good use of it :-) A friend on the Way, Ben. - swathi dora Thursday, February 26, 2004 11:14 AM Re: A Bird Cannot Fly Without Two Wings... Dear Ben & Joyce , Thanks for your posts , till recently I was also a confused person with all the concepts of 'Jnana' , 'Bhakti' and 'Karma' , after reading the following passage I am able to view things in correct perspective. " The Maharshi looked at me and asked, 'How did you come here from Madras?' I didn't see the point of his question, but I politely told him the answer : 'By train.' And what happened when you got to the station at Tiruvannamalai?' he enquired. 'Well, I got off the train, handed in my ticket and engaged a bullock cart to take me to the ashram.' And when you reached the ashram and paid off the driver of the cart, what happened to the cart?' It went away, presumably back to town,' I said, still not clear as to where this line of questioning was leading. The Maharshi then explained what he was driving at. The train brought you to your destination. You got off it because you didn't need it anymore. It had brought you to the place you wanted to reach. Likewise with the bullock cart. You got off it when it had brought you to Ramanasramam. You don't need either the train or the cart any more. They were the means for bringing you here. Now you are here, they are of no use to you. That is what has happened with your chanting. Your japa, your reading and your meditation have brought you to your spiritual destination. You don't need them any more. You yourself did not give up your practices; they left you of their own accord because they had served their purpose. You have arrived.' Love & Om DoraBen Hassine <ben.hassine (AT) xs4all (DOT) nl> wrote: - Lady Joyce Thursday, February 26, 2004 5:27 AM A Bird Cannot Fly Without Two Wings... Ben wrote... The marvellous bird of sadhana has two wings: jnana and bhakti. In my opinion the bhakti aspect deserves more attention. Bhakti (surrender) is the blazing fire of Love that evaporates all tears, sorrow and doubts. =================================================================== I thought you just wrote a few posts back that you did not know what bhakti was :-) I have no opinion on which deserves more attention since for each person, the balance will differ. For you and for me, Bhakti rules. God's childish fools :-) For others, who choose to interpret Sri Ramana as they see fit, jnana is an intellectual pursuit. Who is to say which is the "best" way? Even Ramana, who was known to emphasize the "method" inherent in Self Enquiry, said again and again that bhakti and jnana are one and the same. "Bhakti is Jnana Mata" says Sri Ramana. Someone had posted the story in the link below on RamanaMaharshi group within the last few weeks. I had started working on a webpage link for it and then got diverted. Now seemed like a good time to go back... http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Two%20wings.htm Love, Joyce Dear Joyce, Yes I wrote that. But what I tried to say was more that all these categories, names and concepts, divide and confuse rather than enlighten. The biggest hindrance to peace might be the word "realisation" -- we create a goal and than start our long way of becoming it. In this becoming we kill "what is"; speaking of ahimsa... When I was living in the ashram of Sri Ramakrishna Mission and living with Swami Ritajananda I used to read only advaita vedanta and Krishnamurti. Swami told me to just repeat "hari om ramakrishna" instead. At the time I was a teenager and tought to myself the old man was cheating me and trying to make a bhakta out of me. I tried to follow his advice though, but after a couple of days I was reading Ashtavkra Gita, Ribhu Gita and K. again. It would confuse me more and more and drive me desparate. Until I was near Swami again and all questions would simply find their way back to the Heart where they came from. At the time I could not accept that the warm feeling in the Heart was what it was all about. Too simple for an advaitin like me... I was too proud of my concepts and intellectual grasp of vedanta. In my blindness and arrogance I had a low opinion of all these bhaktas chanting and reading only the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. To make this story complete we have to go back maybe a year before I went to Swami Ritajanda in the Gretz centre. In those days a friend of my mother introduced me to Sri Ramana after a couple of weeks testing my patience. He started with telling me to feel my way into the Heart. After that he said maybe next week I have a special book for you. -- He had one little book by Arthur Osborne on Sri Ramana and the path of Self-enquiry, but each time I visited him he would tell me that the next visit I would get the book. -- In the meantime I should try to feel my way into the Heart. In his presence I would intuite what he was talking about, I would become aware of the perfume of Joy flowering from the Heart. So when I was alone the only thing I would be doing was to follow this perfume, this newness into the Heart. This resulted in a couple of powerful awakenings, the curtain was lifted and I saw the primordial Light coming out of the Heart and all of the universe was this Light. I was this Light. After these awakenings my "mentor" gave me the book. Now I know why he did it this way. With Swami Ritajananda it was about the same old story. He could see right through me. My first encounter with him I cannot remember what happened. He looked me straight in the eyes and from that moment on I don't remember what happened. I only know that I walked back to the visitors building and that I was "drunk". Swami never gave me any instructions really. He only said: "hari om ramakrishna" and "be strong". I was living near a jivan mukta but still I was too arrogant and blind to see it was all a matter of "be quiet and feel your Heart". So reading all these books and filling my head with all the intellectual garbage only took me away from the Heart. That is why I said I don't know what bhakti is, to be more precise I was really saying: "I don't care for the word bhakti". As I see it many people get stuck in concepts today. I mean, all scriptures and teachers can be found just a mouseclick away. This has a dark side to it. It is easy to become addicted to reading, discussing, to concepts. All this book knowledge tends to make people arrogant and blinded for the simplicity of "what is". The voice of the Heart is burried under all these teachings, teachers, scriptures, do's and do not's. If people do not agree with "my teacher" or "my truth" or "my ahimsa" or "my advaita" they are "over there" and I am "here": division. This looks like an over-simplification, but to be honest with you I see this division very clearly happening in these lists and in all these discussions going on. There is also a lighter side to the availabilty on a massive scale of all these spiritual texts: to see that in the end it all boils down to same Truth and that this Truth can be found inside oneself to begin with. Speaking for myself, I don't have time to waste, life is short, time is running out, all that needs to be done for me is to get rid of all concepts and feel my way back into the Heart, Home. Let others decide what teacher is more enlightened, what teachings are more sacred and so on :-) Yours, Ben. /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma India Insurance Special: Be informed on the best policies, services, tools and more. /join "Love itself is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Namaste' Joyce, Thank you for this. I have rewritten the book I spoke with you about and now call it 'The Way of Water'. This is my comment of the spirit-nature of things, and it is inspired by my translation of the Yin-Yang Symbol (the two wings) and on my Yoga practice. You can see the cover design and some excerpts here: http://www.beingyoga.com And here is my translation of the Yin-Yang symbol: Relationship is the Substance of Life. Love and Gratitude, James , "Lady Joyce" <shaantih@c...> wrote: > Ben wrote... > > The marvellous bird of sadhana has two wings: jnana and bhakti. > In my opinion the bhakti aspect deserves more attention. > Bhakti (surrender) is the blazing fire of Love that evaporates all tears, sorrow and doubts. > =================================================================== > > I thought you just wrote a few posts back that you did not know what bhakti was :-) > I have no opinion on which deserves more attention since for each person, the balance > will differ. For you and for me, Bhakti rules. God's childish fools :-) > > For others, who choose to interpret Sri Ramana as they see fit, jnana is an intellectual > pursuit. Who is to say which is the "best" way? Even Ramana, who was known to > emphasize the "method" inherent in Self Enquiry, said again and again that bhakti and jnana > are one and the same. "Bhakti is Jnana Mata" says Sri Ramana. > > Someone had posted the story in the link below on RamanaMaharshi group within the last few weeks. > I had started working on a webpage link for it and then got diverted. > Now seemed like a good time to go back... > http://www.omshaantih.com/Ramana/Two%20wings.htm > > > Love, > > Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 , "Ben Hassine" <ben.hassine@x> wrote: > Speaking for myself, I don't have time to waste, life is short, time is running out, all that needs to be done for me is to get rid of all concepts and feel my way back into the Heart, Home. Hiya Ben, Time is running out?? Throw the watch, the clocks, away! If that isn't possible, have time running in. Life is short?? You must be really tall. :-) Life isn't short. Life is a gift, a joyous game, a funny valentine, a mystery, an adventure, a continuous blessing. Take your pick. (No need to get rid of concepts. Just make new ones that brings home to heart) Love, xxxtg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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