Chicken or the Egg?

March 1, 2004

Namaste All,

I just went and searched Jesus and the Talmud on .

http://search./search?p=Jesus+in+the+Talmud&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-

tab-web-t&cop=mss&tab=

There is a surprising amount of stuff there, that could be termed

controversial, calling Mary a prostitute and Jesus a fake conjurer

that deceived the people etc etc.........really outrageous

inflammatory stuff from 1700 years ago or more. However they do

indicate he was executed as a heretic on passover.

In the early days of what became Christianity there was a lot of

persecution, Shaul of Tarsus or St Paul led persecutions against

these Christians, on behalf of Hebrew authorities, before

converting, and building the Essenic sect into a religion. Jesus's,

brother James was killed by the Sadduccees taking advantage in a

hiatus between governors, Stephen and Sylvia were stoned to death by

the Sadducee Priests etc etc. So the embryonic Christianity was well

persecuted in Palestine by the ruling Hebrew groups, as other mystic

groups of Essenes had been persecuted for 300 years.

So the early Christians grew up with a fear and some, a hatred of

what later became known as Jews. So the die was set between these

mutually hating groups. Later the Romans persecuted both of them for

causing fight and troubles, they weren't fussy who they persecuted.

A greater problem arose in Europe after the nation of the Khazars

converted to Judaism en masse and adding a whole flood of new

members. Their empire was defeated by the Muscovites and the Khazar

Jews mixed in with Eastern Europeans, this became the majority of

Jews to this day. Unfortunately at the end of their Empire they were

just known as Jews. Now a religion more than a race. They didn't

have the history or folk memory or a spoken semitic language to

connect them to a Palestine they never came from anyway.

So essentially they got a bum rap from the Christian persecutors and

didn't really know why. Probably more to do with financial success

than anything else. For the Khazar Empire was a sophisticated,

literate, educated Empire, they even helped out Byzantines in their

wars. So these sophisticates mixed with other Jews, who also were

sophisticated and there are the seeds of jealousy. Both Muslims and

Christians used the Jews for money lending for they were banned

according to their religious laws on usary. Hence a natural growth

causing jealousy among a peasant and mainly illiterate populace,

easy to manipulate, to wipe out debts and competition.

There is a site called Khazaria.com that agrees and disagrees with

what I have written, but it is generally valid.

So its an old story of tribal manipulation and human

inadequacy......On both sides............ONS..Tony

March 1, 2004

, "Tony OClery" <aoclery>

wrote:

> Namaste All,

\

Misuse of the term anti semitism.

Zionism doesn't define Jews

- it divides us

By GABOR MATé

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Thursday, December 12, 2002 – Page A23

Given its horrific 20th-century connotations, anti-Semitism is a

serious charge. It was levelled against critics of Israel on this

page recently by three people who have demonstrated a strong

lifelong commitment to humanitarian values. Lawyer Clayton Ruby,

labour leader Jeff Rose and physician Philip Berger wrote that they

feel "anti-Semitism has emerged as a powerful force" among some left-

wing opponents of Israeli policy.

As a Jew and a former member of a Zionist youth movement, I

understand the affinity the three writers have for Israel. I can

also see why the blindly murderous attitudes and actions of some in

the Palestinian resistance trigger a powerfully defensive emotional

response in the Jewish community.

But the flaw in their argument is rooted in a confounding of Jewish

identity with the Jewish state. They write of an "artificial

distinction between Israel and Zionism, on one hand, and Jewish

identity on the other."

The modern identification of Jews and Israel emerged largely as a

reaction to the Nazi genocide. Although it may represent the

majority view today, it should be not taken for granted.

Historically, it never has been. It is unlikely to persist.

>From its beginnings, political Zionism faced opposition within the

Jewish world. The Zionist identification of a people with a state is

incompatible with the real position of most Jews as freely chosen

citizens of other countries. Long before Roman times, Jews formed

widely dispersed religious, cultural and ethnic groups whose

commonality was not based on geography or politics. Only their

spiritual practices were centred on Palestine.

Some Jews saw in political Zionism a vulgarization of Jewish

Messianic tradition that would debase Jewish moral life. The Russian-

Jewish writer and "spiritual Zionist" Ahad Ha'am, who emigrated to

Palestine, was one of the first to recognize the ethical costs of a

project to establish a Jewish state at the expense of the indigenous

Arabs. "If this be the Messiah coming," he wrote in the first years

of the last century, "then I don't want to see him arrive."

Zionist theory denied the legitimate presence of an emerging,

indigenous nation in Palestine. Zionist practice ensured its

dispossession and exile. "We may be a people without a home," said a

disillusioned German Zionist in 1925, "but alas, there is not a

country without a people. . . . Palestine has an existing population

of 700,000, a people who have lived there for centuries and

rightfully consider the country as their fatherland and homeland."

Ahad Ha'am's dark prophecy of an anti-Messianic future has been

fully realized. My medical friend and colleague Philip Berger would

be appalled if he saw with his own eyes, as I have, the disastrous

humanitarian and health consequences of a policy that grants

settlers from New York six times as much fresh water per capita as

native Palestinians.

Human-rights lawyer Clayton Ruby would be outraged to witness the

proceedings of military courts where tortured Arabs are accused,

convicted and sentenced without the right to know the evidence

against them.

Unionist Jeff Rose would be shocked at policies that de facto make

Palestinian labour groups illegal, exposing their organizers to the

threat of incarceration.

It owes nothing to anti-Semitism that Israel is the subject of more

critical scrutiny than are the neighbouring Arab autarchies,

dictatorships and pseudo- democracies. No one mistakes the true

nature of those regimes. No credible voices are raised in their

defence, nor do the abhorrent Palestinian suicide bombings have any

serious apologists. Only Israel's relentless and ultimately self-

destructive expansionism, militarism and state violence find many

supporters.

The Palestinians continue to be disenfranchised, dispossessed and

humiliated. Mr. Rose, Dr. Berger and Mr. Ruby, were they to drop

their self-generated fear of leftist anti-Semitism, would be

inspired by the words of the Israeli officer who chose this week to

join dozens of his comrades in jail rather than serve in an army of

brutal occupation: "I will do my time in a visible prison for a few

months for refusing to enlist in Israel's academy for prison guards:

the IDF, Israel's 'Defense Forces' which have been imprisoning an

entire people for 35 years."

Gabor Maté is a Vancouver physician and writer.

source: The Globe and Mail

http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index258.htmlhttp://www.hiddenmy

steries.com/redir/index258.html

March 1, 2004

Dear

with spreading this point of view of GABOR MATE you are entering a

very poisenous field.

I read your posting after reading the - at least for me old known

"fact" - mail about Jeshu having died in Kashmir. This made always

sense to me. If this truth spreads it means the end of the

romancatholic church, which, by the way is due to come soon

(according to all prophecies)

there have always been "jews" who worked together with the best enemies of the Jews.

Pfefferkorns and so many others...

Have you ever been in Israel?

Are you "gifted enough" to smell blood when travelling around the world?

I do not want to bother our friends in Harsha b u t if you want you

can mail me privately so not to disturb the others

with all due respect

b u t we have to be very very very carefully now not to spread

hatred prejudices in a time which is called "the last days"

michael bindel