Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

[Guest guest]

" have loved Thee with two loves, a selfish love and a love that is

worthy (of Thee).

As for the love which is selfish, I occupy myself therein with

remembrance of Thee to the exclusion of all others,

As for that which is worthy of Thee, therien Thou raisest the veil

that I may see Thee.

Yet is there no praise to me in this or that,

But the praise is to Thee, whether in that or this."

 

 

In the history of Islam, the woman saint made her appearance at a

very early period, and in the evolution of the cult of saints by

Muslims, the dignity of saintship was conferred on women as much as

on men. As far as rank among the 'friends of God' was concerned,

there was complete equality between the sexes.

 

It was the development of mysticism (Sufism) within Islam, which gave

women their great opportunity to attain the rank of sainthood. The

goal of the Sufi quest was union with the Divine, and the Sufi seeker

after God, having renounced this world and its attraction being

purged of Self and its desires, inflamed with a passion of love of

God, journeyed ever onward, looking toward the final purpose, through

the life of illumination, with its ecstasies and raptures, and the

higher life of contemplation, until at last he achieved the heavenly

gnosis and attained to the Vision of God, in which the lover might

become one with the Beloved, and abide in Him for ever.

 

Such a conception of the relations between the saint and his Lord

left no room for the distinction of sex. In the spiritual life there

could be 'neither male nor female'. All whom God had called to be

saints could attain, by following the Path, to union with Himself,

and all who attained, would have their royal rank, as spiritual

beings, in the world to come.

 

Attar, saintship may be found in woman as naturally as in a man.

 

 

<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

This was the saintly Rabi'a, a freedwoman of the Al-Atik, a tribe of

Qays b. Adi, from which she was known as al-Adawiyya or al-Qaysiyya,

and also as al-Basriyya, from her birth-place: of whom a modern

writer says 'Rabi'a is the saint par excellence of Sunnite

hagiography'. Her biographer Attar speaks of her as

 

That one set apart in the seclusion of holiness, that woman veiled

with the veil of religious sincerity, that one on fire with love and

longing, that one enamoured of the desire to approach her Lord and be

consumed in His glory, that woman who lost herself in union with the

Divine, that one accepted by men as a second spotless Mary - Rabi'a

al-Adawiyya, may God have mercy upon her. If anyone were to say, 'Why

have you made mention of her in the class of men?', I should say …

God does not look upon the outward forms… if it is allowable to

accept two thirds of our faith form Aisha the trustworthy, it is also

allowable to accept religious benefit from one of her handmaids (i.e.

Rabi'a). when a woman walks in the way of God like a man, she cannot

be called a woman'.

 

A later biographer, al-Munawi, says of her:

 

Rabi'a al-Adawiyya al Qaysiyya of Basra, was at the head of the women

disciples and the chief of the women ascetics, of those who observed

the sacred law, who were God-fearing and zealous… and she was one of

those who were pre-eminent and experience in grace and goodness.

 

He gives the names of several well-known women saints and goes onto

say, 'She was the most famous among them, of great devotion and

conspicuous in worship, and perfect in purity and asceticism'.

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

 

Rabia was born probably about A.H. 95 or 99 (=A.D. 717) in Basra,

where she spent the greater part of her life.

 

Born in the poorest of homes, according to Attar (though a modern

writer says she belonged to one of the noble families of Basra),

miraculous events were reputed to have taken place even at the time

of her birth. Attar tells us that on that on the night of her birth

there was no oil on the house, no lamp nor swaddling clothes in which

to rap the newborn child. Her father already had three daughters, and

so she was called Rabi'a (= the fourth). The mother asked her husband

to go and ask for oil for the lamp from a neighbour, but he had made

a vow that he would never ask anything of a creature (i.e. as a true

Sufi he would depend only upon God to supply his needs), and so he

came back without it. Having fallen asleep in great distress at the

lack of provision for the child, he dreamt that the Prophet Muhammad

appeared to him in his sleep and said, 'Do not be sorrowful, for this

daughter who is born is a great saint, whose intercession will be

desired by seventy thousand of my community'. The Prophet said

further:

 

To-morrow send a letter to Isa Zadhan, Amir of Basra, reminding him

that every night he is wont to pray one hundred prayers to me and on

Friday night four hundred, but this Friday night he has neglected me,

and as a penance (tell him) that he must give you four hundred

dinars, lawfully acquired.

 

Rabi'a's father awoke, weeping: he rose up, wrote the letter as

directed and sent it to the Amir through the latter's chamberlain.

The Amir, when he had read the letter said:

 

"Give two thousand dinars to the poor as a thank-offering, because

the prophet had me in mi, and four hundred dinars to that Shaykh and

say to him that I desire that he should come before me that I may see

him, but it is not fitting that such a person as he is should come to

me, but I will come and rub my beard on his threshold".

 

But in spite of this event of good augury, Attar elated that

misfortunes fell upon the family, and when Rabi'a was a little older

her mother and father died and she was left an orphan. A famine

occurred in Basra and the sisters were scattered. One day when Rabi'a

was walking abroad, and evil-minded man saw her and seized upon her

and sold her as a slave for six dirhams and the man ho bought her

made her work hard. One day a stranger (one who might not look at her

unveiled) approached her. Rabi'a fled to avoid him and slipped on the

road and dislocated her writs. She bowed her faced in the dust, and

said, 'O Lord, I am a stranger an without mother or father, an orphan

and a slave and I have fallen into bondage and my writs is injured,

(yet) I am not grieved by this, only (I desire) to satisfy Thee. I

would fain know if Thou art satisfied (with me) or not'. She heard of

voice saying, 'Be not sorrowful, fir on the day of Resurrection they

rank shall be such that those who are nearest to God in Heaven shall

envy thee'.

 

After this Rabi'a returned to her master's house and continually

fasted in the daytime and carried out her appointed tasks and in the

service of God she was standing on her feet till the day. One night

her master awoke from sleep and looked down through a window of the

house and saw Rabi'a, whose head was bowed in worship, and she was

saying, 'O my Lord, Thou knowest that the desire of my heart is to

obey Thee, and that ht e light of my eye is in the service of Thy

court. If the matter rested with me, I should not cease for one hour

from Thy service, but Thou hast made me subject to a creature'. While

she was still praying, he saw a lap above her had, suspended without

a chain, and the whole house was illuminated by the rays from that

light. This enveloping radiance or sakina (derived from the Hebrew

Shekina = the cloud of glory indicating the presence of God) of the

Muslim saint, corresponding to the halo of the Christian saint, it

frequently mentioned in the biographies of the Sufis.

 

Rabi'a's master, when he saw that strange sight, was afraid and rose

up and returned to his own place and sat pondering until day came.

When the day dawned, he called Rabi'a and spoke kindly to her and set

her free. Rabi'a asked for leave to go away; so he gave her leave,

and she left that place and journeyed into the desert. Afterwards she

let the desert and obtained for herself a cell and for a time was

engaged in devotional worship there. According to one account, Rabi'a

at first followed the calling of a flute player, which would be

consistent with a state of slavery. Then she became concerted and

built a place of retreat, where she occupied herself with works of

piety.

 

Among other stories related of this period of her life is one telling

how she purposed performing the pilgrimage to Mekkah and set her face

towards the desert; she had an ass with her to carry her baggage',

and in the heart of the desert the ass died. Some people (in the

caravan) said to her, 'Let us carry thy baggage'. She said,' Go on

your way, for I am not dependent upon you for (for help)', i.e. she

placed her trust in God and not in His creatures.

 

So the people went on and Rabi'a remained alone, and bowing her had,

she said, 'O my God, do kings deal thus with a woman, a stranger and

weak? Thou art calling me to Thine own house (the Ka'ba), but in the

midst of the way Thou hast suffered mine ass to die and Thou hast

left me alone in the desert'.

 

She had hardly completed her prayer, when the ass stirred got up.

Rabi'a put her baggage on it and went on her way. The narrator of

this story said that some time afterwards he saw that same little ass

being sold in the bazaar.

 

Another story tells us how she want into the desert for a few days

and prayed, 'O my Lord, my heart is perpelexed, whither shall I go? I

am not but a clod or earth and that house (the Ka'ba) in only a stone

to me. Shew Thyself (to me) in this very place'. So she prayed until

God Most High, without any medium, spoke directly within her heart,

saying 'O Rabi'a… when Moses desired to see My Face, I cast a few

particles of My Glory upon the mountain (Sinai) and it was rent into

forty pieces. Be content here with My Name'.

 

It is told how another time she was on her way to Makkah, and when

half-way there she saw the Ka'ba coming to meet her and she said, 'It

is the Lord of the house whom I need, what have I to do with the

house? I need to meet with Him Who said, 'Whose approaches Me by a

span's length I will approach him by the length of a cubit.' The

Ka'ba which I see has no power over me; what joy does the beauty of

the Ka'ba bring to me?'

 

In connection with this legend, which indicates how highly favoured

by God Rabi'a was, in the eyese o her biographers, it is related that

Ibrahim b. Adham spent fourteen yars making his way to the Ka'ba,

because in every place of prayer her performed two raka's, and at

last when he arrived at the Ka'ba, he did not see it.

 

He said, 'Alas, what has happened? It maybe that some injure has

overtaken my eyes'. An unseen voice said, 'No harm has befallen your

eyes, but the Ka'ba has gone to meet a woman, who is approaching this

place'. Ibrahim was seized with jealousy, and said, 'O indeed, who is

this?' He ran saw Rabi'a arriving and the Ka'ba was back in its own

place when Ibrahim saw that, he said, 'O Rabi'a, what is this

disturbance and trouble and burden which thou hast brought into the

world?' She said, 'I have not brought disturbance intot he world, it

is you who have disturbed the world, because you delayed fourtenen

years in arriving at the Ka'ba'. He said, 'Yes I have spent fourteen

years in crossing the desert (because I was engaged) in prayer'.

Rabi'a said, 'You traversed it in ritual prayer (namaz) but with

personal supplication (niyaz). Then, having performed the pilgrimage,

she returned to Basra and occupied herself with works of devotion.

 

For these early years only legends are available, but they give us a

clear idea of a woman renouncing this world and it attractions and

giving up her life to the service of God, the first step on the

mystic Way to be trodden by the Sufi saint.

 

http://www.khamush.com/sufism/rabia.htm - 31k - Cached

 

**********************************************************************

[Guest guest]

Dear adi_shakti

thank you for your account of the acceptance of women as "saints" amongst the Sufis.

The idea of sainthood is very problematic amongst modern Westerners.

Most modern Westerners have been

fed with stories of Christian saints and these stories were mostly

accounts of lives that never seemed quite real.

The one primary qualification for sainthood seems to have been a condemnatory attitude towards sex.

Very few modern Westerners have much time for the idea that sexual

deprivation is a prerequisite for understanding, and merging with,

the divine.

In former times, when contraception was unavailable, when the

regulation of society was necessarily more tight,

(except for the Kings, who could have as many concubines as they

liked, without incurring the condemnation of the priestly class)

maybe sexual deprivation was necessary for practical reasons. Those

reasons no longer apply. Householder Gurus and householder

disciples/seekers are the norm.

Today, many are in love with the endeavour to know their true nature;

very few have any interest in being "saints".

It is not that the saints of former times are not held in high regard;

it is just that sainthood doesn't seem particularly relevant today.

Love

Warwick

" have loved Thee with two loves, a selfish love and a love that is

worthy (of Thee).As for the love which is selfish, I occupy myself

therein with remembrance of Thee to the exclusion of all others,As

for that which is worthy of Thee, therien Thou raisest the veil that

I may see Thee.Yet is there no praise to me in this or that,But the

praise is to Thee, whether in that or this."In the history of Islam,

the woman saint made her appearance at a very early period, and in

the evolution of the cult of saints by Muslims, the dignity of

saintship was conferred on women as much as on men. As far as rank

among the 'friends of God' was concerned, there was complete equality

between the

sexes./join

"Love itself is

the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam"

by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

thank you warwick!

 

You write and quite understandably

 

Very few modern Westerners have much time for the idea that sexual

deprivation is a prerequisite for understanding, and merging with,

the divine.

 

yes! in hinduism , we have 'tantra' --- in one path of tantra ( the

vamachara marga) , there is no denial of 'sex' ... IN fact, you use

maithuna ("sexual intercourse") as one of the sadhanas to ranscend

the mundane to reach the sublime... but the path has many pitfalls

and is not recommended for dvotees in the mode of pashu bhava ( or

tamasic mode of ignorance)

 

from bhogha(material enjoyment) one goes to yoga ( union with the

divine)

 

Do not let 'sex' control you ! you control sex!

 

Turn the small love for your partner into the big love for the

universe !

 

you comment and rather correctly

 

Today, many are in love with the endeavour to know their true

nature; very few have any interest in being "saints".

 

what is the true nature !!!

 

we are all buddhas! only buddha knew it and we are all struggling to

know it!

 

**********************************************************************

 

rabia post was specially meant for Michael! he wanted to learn about

this saint!

 

love

[Guest guest]

Hi adi_shakti

the writings of some of the Sufi mystics are undoubtedly wonderful. I

have do not wish to belittle them in any way; in fact I cannot praise

them highly enough.

And I am quite prepared to accept that the practices of Tantra, at

some stage in history, were indeed doorways to a universal love.

But surely you are aware that a host of charlatans have taken the word

Tantra and used it as a cover for the sale of their spiritual

snake-oil.

Think of "Bhagwan" Shree Rajneesh, who later re-invented himself as "Osho".

He used to call himself a "Tantric" master. In fact, he was nothing

more than a master con-artist. There were orgies all over the ashram,

but meditative sex was very rare.

And then Barry Long in Australia styled himself "the guru of love".

A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with Bazza Long before he re-invented himself.

At that stage he was trying to convey the impression that he was

something of a saint, that he'd transcended sex and all the other

nasty practices that held ordinary folk in bondage. So he said to my

friend, "You mustn't tell anyone about our affair; it will bring you

dreadful karma if you tell anyone."

I think that it is a good idea to give a very wide berth to anyone who

claims to be a "Tantric teacher", or a "love guru".

There are more hucksters peddling spiritual secrets and spiritual

panaceas than there are corrupt politicians. A walk through the

spiritual supermarket makes one consider politics to be the

endeavours of sincere and high-minded men and women working

selflessly for the greater good of their communities.

I am totally committed to the spiritual search; it is the endeavour of

endeavours. But the field is full of phonies, and anyone who exposes

the fraudulence of any such is doing the whole world a favour.

Love

-

adi_shakthi16

Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:25 PM

Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

thank you warwick! You write and quite understandably Very few modern

Westerners have much time for the idea that sexual deprivation is a

prerequisite for understanding, and merging with, the divine.yes! in

hinduism , we have 'tantra' --- in one path of tantra ( the vamachara

marga) , there is no denial of 'sex' ... IN fact, you use maithuna

("sexual intercourse") as one of the sadhanas to ranscend the mundane

to reach the sublime... but the path has many pitfalls and is not

recommended for dvotees in the mode of pashu bhava ( or tamasic mode

of ignorance) from bhogha(material enjoyment) one goes to yoga (

union with the divine) Do not let 'sex' control you ! you control

sex! Turn the small love for your partner into the big love for the

universe ! you comment and rather correctly Today, many are in love

with the endeavour to know their true nature; very few have any

interest in being "saints".what is the true nature !!! we are all

buddhas! only buddha knew it and we are all struggling to know it!

**********************************************************************rabia

post was specially meant for Michael! he wanted to learn about this

saint! love

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

op 22-04-2004 01:56 schreef Warwick Wakefield op formandsubstance (AT) tpg (DOT) com.au:

A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with Bazza Long before he re-invented himself.

At that stage he was trying to convey the impression that he was

something of a saint, that he'd transcended sex and all the other

nasty practices that held ordinary folk in bondage. So he said to my

friend, "You mustn't tell anyone about our affair; it will bring you

dreadful karma if you tell anyone."

I think that it is a good idea to give a very wide berth to anyone who

claims to be a "Tantric teacher", or a "love guru".

There are more hucksters peddling spiritual secrets and spiritual

panaceas than there are corrupt politicians. A walk through the

spiritual supermarket makes one consider politics to be the

endeavours of sincere and high-minded men and women working

selflessly for the greater good of their communities.

I am totally committed to the spiritual search; it is the endeavour of

endeavours. But the field is full of phonies, and anyone who exposes

the fraudulence of any such is doing the whole world a favour.

Love

______________

I suppose Warwick that 'being totally committed' to the spiritual

search must mean that you have not actually reached its goal yet.

Is it possible that as a result of you not having reached that noble

goal you are not yet in a position to expose the phoniness of others?

Sam

[Guest guest]

Hi adi_shakti

Hi Warwick Wakefield

first to adi

thank you so much thinking about me and sending the mail about rabia

namaste!

Warwick

reading your mails I do enjoy its always "deep"

this one specially

this esoteric business is going on since more than 20 years I

remember very well attending the first esoteric "shows" (good

because they showed you the spectrum) one year later I got headache

nasty feelings two years later I "fled"

I am grateful that "mydiscoveries" have been achieved by my own no

books imagine this 40 years ago and more and I am a "book-worm"

(german expression for booklover), my dead parents too of course, and

dad was a publisher. I would have had all the possibilites to get

esoteric books never in the beginning thru this I discovered for

me the idea of reincarnation of numerology and so on only

AFTERWARDS before the esoteric wave got a lot of books of course

and with my "knowledge" I could help a very gifted soul to convince

her that she is not mad but completely sane....

To Osho funny I enjoyed his books really very much good for the

western intellectuals....but lucky as I was never tempted to be his

"follower" but I cannot dislike him

its funny somehow

Tantra oh Gosh you are so right all the sexbusiness is so

"dangereous" such a trap

but again I am lucky and gifted because in this incarnation I have an

inner instinct which does not "allow" me to fall in certain traps

of course the others one have been wide open......

but dear Warwick isnit it always the same:

look "christianity" "Jesus" how wonderful the ideas behind how

terrible their daily practice

there are so many things to "talk about"

I hope you get somehow my inner feelings

thank you so much again

yours

Michael

and to both of you and to all who "knowme"

lots of sunshine happiness wellbeing LOVE

michael "fool"

-

Warwick Wakefield

Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:56 AM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hi adi_shakti

the writings of some of the Sufi mystics are undoubtedly wonderful. I

have do not wish to belittle them in any way; in fact I cannot praise

them highly enough.

And I am quite prepared to accept that the practices of Tantra, at

some stage in history, were indeed doorways to a universal love.

But surely you are aware that a host of charlatans have taken the word

Tantra and used it as a cover for the sale of their spiritual

snake-oil.

Think of "Bhagwan" Shree Rajneesh, who later re-invented himself as "Osho".

He used to call himself a "Tantric" master. In fact, he was nothing

more than a master con-artist. There were orgies all over the ashram,

but meditative sex was very rare.

And then Barry Long in Australia styled himself "the guru of love".

A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with Bazza Long before he re-invented himself.

At that stage he was trying to convey the impression that he was

something of a saint, that he'd transcended sex and all the other

nasty practices that held ordinary folk in bondage. So he said to my

friend, "You mustn't tell anyone about our affair; it will bring you

dreadful karma if you tell anyone."

I think that it is a good idea to give a very wide berth to anyone who

claims to be a "Tantric teacher", or a "love guru".

There are more hucksters peddling spiritual secrets and spiritual

panaceas than there are corrupt politicians. A walk through the

spiritual supermarket makes one consider politics to be the

endeavours of sincere and high-minded men and women working

selflessly for the greater good of their communities.

I am totally committed to the spiritual search; it is the endeavour of

endeavours. But the field is full of phonies, and anyone who exposes

the fraudulence of any such is doing the whole world a favour.

Love

-

adi_shakthi16

Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:25 PM

Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

thank you warwick! You write and quite understandably Very few modern

Westerners have much time for the idea that sexual deprivation is a

prerequisite for understanding, and merging with, the divine.yes! in

hinduism , we have 'tantra' --- in one path of tantra ( the vamachara

marga) , there is no denial of 'sex' ... IN fact, you use maithuna

("sexual intercourse") as one of the sadhanas to ranscend the mundane

to reach the sublime... but the path has many pitfalls and is not

recommended for dvotees in the mode of pashu bhava ( or tamasic mode

of ignorance) from bhogha(material enjoyment) one goes to yoga (

union with the divine) Do not let 'sex' control you ! you control

sex! Turn the small love for your partner into the big love for the

universe ! you comment and rather correctly Today, many are in love

with the endeavour to know their true nature; very few have any

interest in being "saints".what is the true nature !!! we are all

buddhas! only buddha knew it and we are all struggling to know it!

**********************************************************************rabia

post was specially meant for Michael! he wanted to learn about this

saint! love

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

Hi Sam,

Let's say that Saddam Hussein were to declare that he is in fact an enlightened master.

Would you think it prudent of anyone who is not totally enlightened

to give him the benefit of the doubt?

Let's say that George Dubya Bush, or Robert Mugabe, or the Pope, were

to claim that their personal self had disappeared and that they were

simply agents for the Divine. Surely you wouldn't be naive enough to

take such claims seriously, even for a moment?

Or would you be inclined to think that there are some cases where the

phoniness of the claimants is so obvious that anyone with a modicum

of common sense can see their duplicity at a glance? Or at least,

after a bit of investigation?

Let's say that you had been given a number of glimpses of your true

nature but were not established there.

You have heard, I am sure, that it is very common, usual even, for

seekers to be given glimpses before reaching the state of "being

stabilized" or "abiding" in their true nature.

Then it would be even easier to spot the hypocrisy of those who claim,

like Bazza Long did, "I am as enlightened as any Buddha."

Come Sam, it is well known that the spiritual marketplace is full of

frauds. You don't have to be an automotive engineer to tell that a

car that is full of rust, runs like a chaff-cutter, spews clouds of

smoke and drips oil everywhere is a bomb, even if the smooth-talking

used car salesman assures you it is a perfectly maintained vehicle

owned by a little old lady who never drove it more than forty miles

an hour.

Cheers

Warwick

-

Sam

Thursday, April 22, 2004 4:07 PM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

op 22-04-2004 01:56 schreef Warwick Wakefield op formandsubstance (AT) tpg (DOT) com.au:

A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with Bazza Long before

he re-invented himself.At that stage he was trying to convey the

impression that he was something of a saint, that he'd transcended

sex and all the other nasty practices that held ordinary folk in

bondage. So he said to my friend, "You mustn't tell anyone about our

affair; it will bring you dreadful karma if you tell anyone."I think

that it is a good idea to give a very wide berth to anyone who claims

to be a "Tantric teacher", or a "love guru".There are more hucksters

peddling spiritual secrets and spiritual panaceas than there are

corrupt politicians. A walk through the spiritual supermarket makes

one consider politics to be the endeavours of sincere and high-minded

men and women working selflessly for the greater good of their

communities.I am totally committed to the spiritual search; it is the

endeavour of endeavours. But the field is full of phonies, and anyone

who exposes the fraudulence of any such is doing the whole world a

favour.Love______________I suppose

Warwick that 'being totally committed' to the spiritual search must

mean that you have not actually reached its goal yet.Is it possible

that as a result of you not having reached that noble goal you are

not yet in a position to expose the phoniness of

others?Sam/join

"Love itself is

the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam"

by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael.

so you followed your own inner voice. Great.

I must confess that I bought quite a lot of snake oil.

The super-conman from Poona.

Andrew Cohen, the great control-freak from New England.

I remember being with a group of friends in London about three years

ago. Some I had known from my Hoo Hoo Hoo days, some I had only

recently met. I was telling them that I had been super gung-ho for

Andrew Cohen for a while, but the scales suddenly fell from my eyes

and I left his commune in a matter of moments. I said that, looking

back, he seemed like an archetypical control freak.

The room erupted in laughter.

"What's so funny?" I asked them.

"Oh Warwick" said one of my friends, "it's not just you; everyone who

breaks free from the Cohen concentration camp uses that exact phrase,

'control-freak."

What had attracted me to Cohen was his air of certainty. He exuded

certainty and confidence and I was inspired to think that if I

followed his guidance I might eventually discover my own true nature.

It didn't happen, of course. Maybe he has some idea of who he really

is, but none of the people I met in his communes around the world had

a clue.

It was the same in the Rajneesh cult, no-one there had a clue, either.

And the remarkable thing is that it is not really all that difficult

to see -- what we truly are is consciousness. We are not an object of

any sort; we are not the body and not the mind; we are not any form,

because all forms exist in time, all forms come into existence,

undergo changes and then disappear. And what we are is NOT any form,

not something that undergoes change, not something that exists in the

realm of time; we are formless and unchanging consciousness.

We are that which perceives, and, being that immaterial non-thing

that perceives, we can never be perceived as an object.

But we can experience ourself, or, I should say, our Self.

There is a very straightforward way to approach the matter. Firstly,

as Ramana Maharshi instructed, we inquire, "Who, or what, am I?" Then

we get a clear picture of our existence as a body and a mind. The

physical phenomena. Then the mental phenomena, the sensations, the

feelings (emotions), the thoughts, the memories, the concepts, the

hopes, fears, and all the rest. It is like acquiring an overview of

the house in which we live. Then, after we have got that clear image

of the house we live in, the bodymind, we are ready for the searching

question, "Am I all those things or am I that which sees all those

things?" And then, if one has been truly committed in one's

enquiries, and if one is the recipient of Grace, it becomes possible

to see; I am That which sees; I am pure subject; I am immaterial and

changeless consciousness. I have no attributes; I am changeless; I am

neither large nor small; I am totally transparent; I depend on nothing

but everything depends on me. It all falls into place.

But still it is only a glimpse. To be established in this knowing is a

different matter. It means understanding that this consciousness is

not my consciousness, but that this person I used to call myself

exists within this consciousness. And furthermore, there is not one

consciousness per person; there is only the one consciousness,

period.

I think that there are those who see partly into the mystery and, on

the basis of this partial knowledge, set themselves up as

all-knowing Masters, with adoring disciples, who pay their

hard-earned money and submit themselves to humiliation and abuse, the

old Zen-stick mumbo jumbo. The full, disgusting, phoney charade. They

do some good perhaps, these self appointed totally awakened Masters,

but God have mercy on their souls.

There is more, much more.

I am venturing into the periphery. I see astonishing vistas and then

fall back into the old ways of seeing things. But the magic is there

and it reveals itself from time to time. Tat Tvam Asi.

Much love

Warwick

---- Original Message -----

Michael Bindel

Thursday, April 22, 2004 4:37 PM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hi adi_shakti

Hi Warwick Wakefield

first to adi

thank you so much thinking about me and sending the mail about rabia

namaste!

Warwick

reading your mails I do enjoy its always "deep"

this one specially

this esoteric business is going on since more than 20 years I

remember very well attending the first esoteric "shows" (good

because they showed you the spectrum) one year later I got headache

nasty feelings two years later I "fled"

I am grateful that "mydiscoveries" have been achieved by my own no

books imagine this 40 years ago and more and I am a "book-worm"

(german expression for booklover), my dead parents too of course, and

dad was a publisher. I would have had all the possibilites to get

esoteric books never in the beginning thru this I discovered for

me the idea of reincarnation of numerology and so on only

AFTERWARDS before the esoteric wave got a lot of books of course

and with my "knowledge" I could help a very gifted soul to convince

her that she is not mad but completely sane....

To Osho funny I enjoyed his books really very much good for the

western intellectuals....but lucky as I was never tempted to be his

"follower" but I cannot dislike him

its funny somehow

Tantra oh Gosh you are so right all the sexbusiness is so

"dangereous" such a trap

but again I am lucky and gifted because in this incarnation I have an

inner instinct which does not "allow" me to fall in certain traps

of course the others one have been wide open......

but dear Warwick isnit it always the same:

look "christianity" "Jesus" how wonderful the ideas behind how

terrible their daily practice

there are so many things to "talk about"

I hope you get somehow my inner feelings

thank you so much again

yours

Michael

and to both of you and to all who "knowme"

lots of sunshine happiness wellbeing LOVE

michael "fool"

[Guest guest]

-

Warwick Wakefield

Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:00 AM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hi Sam,

Or would you be inclined to think that there are some cases where the

phoniness of the claimants is so obvious that anyone with a modicum

of common sense can see their duplicity at a glance? Or at least,

after a bit of investigation?

Sam writes...

Enlightenment is what is obvious.. common sense is nonsense

apart from that, what seems to be obvious to one is not so obvious to another..

Let's say that you had been given a number of glimpses of your true

nature but were not established there.

You have heard, I am sure, that it is very common, usual even, for

seekers to be given glimpses before reaching the state of "being

stabilized" or "abiding" in their true nature.

Then it would be even easier to spot the hypocrisy of those who claim,

like Bazza Long did, "I am as enlightened as any Buddha."

Sam writes,

Yes, let's say one has been given a number of glimpses and that those

very glimpses led one to become a disciple of Osho, what then?

Come Sam, it is well known that the spiritual marketplace is full of

frauds. You don't have to be an automotive engineer to tell that a

car that is full of rust, runs like a chaff-cutter, spews clouds of

smoke and drips oil everywhere is a bomb, even if the smooth-talking

used car salesman assures you it is a perfectly maintained vehicle

owned by a little old lady who never drove it more than forty miles

an hour.

Cheers

Well, Nisargadatta had no teeth left in his head by the end of his

life.. What a rusty old bucket he was when he praised Osho and called

him a great phenomenon.

Come now Warwick, if the glimpses one receives do not make one aware

of the uselessness of one's own opinions then they have not done

their work yet.

Cheers to you to Warwick,

Warwick

-

Sam

Thursday, April 22, 2004 4:07 PM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

op 22-04-2004 01:56 schreef Warwick Wakefield op formandsubstance (AT) tpg (DOT) com.au:

A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with Bazza Long before

he re-invented himself.At that stage he was trying to convey the

impression that he was something of a saint, that he'd transcended

sex and all the other nasty practices that held ordinary folk in

bondage. So he said to my friend, "You mustn't tell anyone about our

affair; it will bring you dreadful karma if you tell anyone."I think

that it is a good idea to give a very wide berth to anyone who claims

to be a "Tantric teacher", or a "love guru".There are more hucksters

peddling spiritual secrets and spiritual panaceas than there are

corrupt politicians. A walk through the spiritual supermarket makes

one consider politics to be the endeavours of sincere and high-minded

men and women working selflessly for the greater good of their

communities.I am totally committed to the spiritual search; it is the

endeavour of endeavours. But the field is full of phonies, and anyone

who exposes the fraudulence of any such is doing the whole world a

favour.Love______________I suppose

Warwick that 'being totally committed' to the spiritual search must

mean that you have not actually reached its goal yet.Is it possible

that as a result of you not having reached that noble goal you are

not yet in a position to expose the phoniness of

others?Sam/join

"Love itself is

the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam"

by Suri Nagamma

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

Dear Warwick

 

your answer requires time and peace of mind.

Please have patience - I will answer soon.

Did I ask you already for your private email?

I do not want to bother the other ones with my "blabla"

michael

[Guest guest]

Dear Warwick, Sam and all,

 

There is nothing phony. No one is phony. Nothing

whatsoever exists except the ONE.

 

But in relative terms, I once came under the influence

of a spiritual teacher who was later greatly debunked,

sued multiple times and mostly discredited. One time

this spiritual teacher had one of my friends kidnapped

and placed under a type of "house arrest". I

confronted the teacher and my friend was released.

 

So this "spiritual teacher" was a bit of a scoundrel;

but so what. I benefitted greatly from practicing the

disciplines that this person taught. After all, the

teachings of most of these people are very similar.

Mostly all of these people teach a variation of the

Yoga classics - Raja Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga,

and or Karma Yoga. For the most part there is nothing

new in what they teach. But, if the disciple places

an emphasis on worshipping the "scoundrel" rather than

practicing the teachings, they may find themselves to

be disappointed in the end.

 

In the words of Sri Ramakrishna, taken from the

Gosperl of Sri Ramakrishna, page 424:

...."Though my guru visits the tavern, still to me he

is the holy Nityananda."

 

All is SELF. What is there to accept and what is

there to reject?

 

Shanti, shanti, shantihiii

 

michael

 

--- Sam <S.Pasiencier wrote:

> op 22-04-2004 01:56 schreef Warwick Wakefield op

> formandsubstance:

>

>

> A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with

> Bazza Long before he

> re-invented himself.

> At that stage he was trying to convey the impression

> that he was something

> of a saint, that he'd transcended sex and all the

> other nasty practices that

> held ordinary folk in bondage. So he said to my

> friend, "You mustn't tell

> anyone about our affair; it will bring you dreadful

> karma if you tell

> anyone."

>

> I think that it is a good idea to give a very wide

> berth to anyone who

> claims to be a "Tantric teacher", or a "love guru".

> There are more hucksters peddling spiritual secrets

> and spiritual panaceas

> than there are corrupt politicians. A walk through

> the spiritual supermarket

> makes one consider politics to be the endeavours of

> sincere and high-minded

> men and women working selflessly for the greater

> good of their communities.

>

> I am totally committed to the spiritual search; it

> is the endeavour of

> endeavours. But the field is full of phonies, and

> anyone who exposes the

> fraudulence of any such is doing the whole world a

> favour.

>

> Love

>

> ______________

>

> I suppose Warwick that 'being totally committed' to

> the spiritual search

> must mean that you have not actually reached its

> goal yet.

>

> Is it possible that as a result of you not having

> reached that noble goal

> you are not yet in a position to expose the

> phoniness of others?

>

> Sam

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- Warwick Wakefield <formandsubstance

wrote:

> Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic -

> a sufi saint !Hi Sam,

 

SNIP

>

> Come Sam, it is well known that the spiritual

> marketplace is full of frauds. You don't have to be

> an automotive engineer to tell that a car that is

> full of rust, runs like a chaff-cutter, spews clouds

> of smoke and drips oil everywhere is a bomb, even if

> the smooth-talking used car salesman assures you it

> is a perfectly maintained vehicle owned by a little

> old lady who never drove it more than forty miles an

> hour.

>

> Cheers

>

> Warwick

 

SNIP

 

Dear Warwick,

 

You seem to place emphasis on the "teacher" rather

than the "teaching". The "truth" is what is

important, not the messenger.

 

There is an old saying, "Blessed are they who live

with the holy man; but more blessed are they who

practice the teachings."

 

Warmest regards,

 

michael

[Guest guest]

, Michael Bowes

<rmichaelbowes> wrote:

> --- Warwick Wakefield <formandsubstance@t...>

> wrote:

> > Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic -

> > a sufi saint !Hi Sam,

>

> SNIP

>

> >

> > Come Sam, it is well known that the spiritual

> > marketplace is full of frauds. You don't have to be

> > an automotive engineer to tell that a car that is

> > full of rust, runs like a chaff-cutter, spews clouds

> > of smoke and drips oil everywhere is a bomb, even if

> > the smooth-talking used car salesman assures you it

> > is a perfectly maintained vehicle owned by a little

> > old lady who never drove it more than forty miles an

> > hour.

> >

 

I am certainly no authority but I believe that the authority to give

upadesa is as important as the technique.

 

Love and respect

Bobby G.

> Dear Warwick,

>

> You seem to place emphasis on the "teacher" rather

> than the "teaching". The "truth" is what is

> important, not the messenger.

>

> There is an old saying, "Blessed are they who live

> with the holy man; but more blessed are they who

> practice the teachings."

>

> Warmest regards,

>

> michael

[Guest guest]

Hi Sam,

this could go on forever.

If you want to persist with Rajneesh-worship, in spite of the

overwhelming evidence of his fraudulence, the testimony of all the

saints in the universe would not deter you.

Good luck

Warwick

-

Sam

Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:26 PM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

-

Warwick Wakefield

Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:00 AM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hi Sam,

Or would you be inclined to think that there are some cases where the

phoniness of the claimants is so obvious that anyone with a modicum

of common sense can see their duplicity at a glance? Or at least,

after a bit of investigation?

Sam writes...

Enlightenment is what is obvious.. common sense is nonsense

apart from that, what seems to be obvious to one is not so obvious to another..

Let's say that you had been given a number of glimpses of your true

nature but were not established there.

You have heard, I am sure, that it is very common, usual even, for

seekers to be given glimpses before reaching the state of "being

stabilized" or "abiding" in their true nature.

Then it would be even easier to spot the hypocrisy of those who claim,

like Bazza Long did, "I am as enlightened as any Buddha."

Sam writes,

Yes, let's say one has been given a number of glimpses and that those

very glimpses led one to become a disciple of Osho, what then?

Come Sam, it is well known that the spiritual marketplace is full of

frauds. You don't have to be an automotive engineer to tell that a

car that is full of rust, runs like a chaff-cutter, spews clouds of

smoke and drips oil everywhere is a bomb, even if the smooth-talking

used car salesman assures you it is a perfectly maintained vehicle

owned by a little old lady who never drove it more than forty miles

an hour.

Cheers

Well, Nisargadatta had no teeth left in his head by the end of his

life.. What a rusty old bucket he was when he praised Osho and called

him a great phenomenon.

Come now Warwick, if the glimpses one receives do not make one aware

of the uselessness of one's own opinions then they have not done

their work yet.

Cheers to you to Warwick,

Warwick

[Guest guest]

Dear Michael,there are two aspects of this.1) You can't give what you

haven't got. Rajneesh couldn't impart spiritual understanding,

happiness, knowing, enlightenment

or whatever you want to call it, because he didn't have it, not even the beginnings of it.

He was a scholar and a smooth-talking con man.

If you think that a con man who sells you snake oil is of equal value

to a real physician, who understands microbiology and all the other

related disciplines, who is a real successor to Edward Jenner and

William Harvey,

and prescribes medicines that can be demonstrated to work well....

Well, he might teach you to beware of con men.

That's something of benefit, I suppose. There are still people in

Romania who think that things were better under the Ceaucesceaus.

2) Rajneesh's "teachings" were rubbish, cobbled together from reading

a bit of psychotherapy here, a bit of yoga there, and some totally

misunderstood meditation techniques.

Do a bit of research. Read The Golden Guru, read The Promise of

Paradise, read The God Who Failed. There is evidence verywhere.

Rajneesh fails on every count.

He even let his disciples do prison time for his crimes.

To speak of him in the same breath as Ramana is to totally miss the point of Ramana.

Love

Warwick

Dear Warwick,You seem to place emphasis on the "teacher" ratherthan

the "teaching". The "truth" is what isimportant, not the

messenger.There is an old saying, "Blessed are they who livewith the

holy man; but more blessed are they whopractice the

teachings."Warmest

regards,michael/join

"Love itself is

the actual form of God." LinksTo visit your group on the

web, go to:/ To

from this group, send an email

to: Your use of

Groups is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Warwick.. You do not know any of what you are saying.. You are only

reproducing opinions you have heard from others. Your ignorance is

showing. No one can 'impart' spiritual understanding. Not even Ramana

could do that, and according to you 'he had it'.

There are no beginnings to spiritual understand either, but there

seems to be no end to spiritual pride.

Perhaps you should examine your motives for wanting to bad mouth someone, anyone for that matter.

-

Warwick Wakefield

Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:48 PM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Dear Michael,there are two aspects of this.1) You can't give what you

haven't got. Rajneesh couldn't impart spiritual understanding,

happiness, knowing, enlightenment

or whatever you want to call it, because he didn't have it, not even the beginnings of it.

He was a scholar and a smooth-talking con man.

If you think that a con man who sells you snake oil is of equal value

to a real physician, who understands microbiology and all the other

related disciplines, who is a real successor to Edward Jenner and

William Harvey,

and prescribes medicines that can be demonstrated to work well....

Well, he might teach you to beware of con men.

That's something of benefit, I suppose. There are still people in

Romania who think that things were better under the Ceaucesceaus.

2) Rajneesh's "teachings" were rubbish, cobbled together from reading

a bit of psychotherapy here, a bit of yoga there, and some totally

misunderstood meditation techniques.

Do a bit of research. Read The Golden Guru, read The Promise of

Paradise, read The God Who Failed. There is evidence verywhere.

Rajneesh fails on every count.

He even let his disciples do prison time for his crimes.

To speak of him in the same breath as Ramana is to totally miss the point of Ramana.

Love

Warwick

Dear Warwick,You seem to place emphasis on the "teacher" ratherthan

the "teaching". The "truth" is what isimportant, not the

messenger.There is an old saying, "Blessed are they who livewith the

holy man; but more blessed are they whopractice the

teachings."Warmest

regards,michael/join

"Love itself is

the actual form of God." LinksTo visit your group on the

web, go to:/ To

from this group, send an email

to: Your use of

Groups is subject to the

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

I do not wish it to continue forever. Neither do I 'worship' Rajneesh,

your saying that shows where you are coming from.

Enough...

-

Warwick Wakefield

Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:26 PM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hi Sam,

this could go on forever.

If you want to persist with Rajneesh-worship, in spite of the

overwhelming evidence of his fraudulence, the testimony of all the

saints in the universe would not deter you.

Good luck

Warwick

-

Sam

Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:26 PM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

-

Warwick Wakefield

Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:00 AM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hi Sam,

Or would you be inclined to think that there are some cases where the

phoniness of the claimants is so obvious that anyone with a modicum

of common sense can see their duplicity at a glance? Or at least,

after a bit of investigation?

Sam writes...

Enlightenment is what is obvious.. common sense is nonsense

apart from that, what seems to be obvious to one is not so obvious to another..

Let's say that you had been given a number of glimpses of your true

nature but were not established there.

You have heard, I am sure, that it is very common, usual even, for

seekers to be given glimpses before reaching the state of "being

stabilized" or "abiding" in their true nature.

Then it would be even easier to spot the hypocrisy of those who claim,

like Bazza Long did, "I am as enlightened as any Buddha."

Sam writes,

Yes, let's say one has been given a number of glimpses and that those

very glimpses led one to become a disciple of Osho, what then?

Come Sam, it is well known that the spiritual marketplace is full of

frauds. You don't have to be an automotive engineer to tell that a

car that is full of rust, runs like a chaff-cutter, spews clouds of

smoke and drips oil everywhere is a bomb, even if the smooth-talking

used car salesman assures you it is a perfectly maintained vehicle

owned by a little old lady who never drove it more than forty miles

an hour.

Cheers

Well, Nisargadatta had no teeth left in his head by the end of his

life.. What a rusty old bucket he was when he praised Osho and called

him a great phenomenon.

Come now Warwick, if the glimpses one receives do not make one aware

of the uselessness of one's own opinions then they have not done

their work yet.

Cheers to you to Warwick,

Warwick

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

Dear Warwick,

 

--- Warwick Wakefield <formandsubstance

wrote:

>

> Dear Michael,

> there are two aspects of this.

>

> 1) You can't give what you haven't got. Rajneesh

> couldn't impart spiritual understanding, happiness,

> knowing, enlightenment

> or whatever you want to call it, because he didn't

> have it, not even the beginnings of it.

> He was a scholar and a smooth-talking con man.

 

Michael B writes: I never knew Rajneesh, I haven't

mentioned his name in this thread, and personally, I

didn't have any interest in him.

> If you think that a con man who sells you snake oil

> is of equal value to a real physician, who

> understands microbiology and all the other related

> disciplines, who is a real successor to Edward

> Jenner and William Harvey,

> and prescribes medicines that can be demonstrated to

> work well....

 

Michael B writes: As I said previously, I didn't buy

anything from Rajneesh - not even one of his books.

 

SNIP

> To speak of him in the same breath as Ramana is to

> totally miss the point of Ramana.

 

Michael B writes: I didn't use the name "Rajneesh" or

"Ramana" in this thread. You must be thinking of

someone else.

 

 

Warmest regards,

 

michael

[Guest guest]

..Michael B writes: I never knew Rajneesh, I haven'tmentioned his name

in this thread, and personally, Ididn't have any interest in him.> If

you think that a con man who sells you snake oil> is of equal value

to a real physician, who> understands microbiology and all the other

related> disciplines, who is a real successor to Edward> Jenner and

William Harvey,> and prescribes medicines that can be demonstrated

to> work well....Michael B writes: As I said previously, I didn't

buyanything from Rajneesh - not even one of his books.SNIP> To speak

of him in the same breath as Ramana is to> totally miss the point of

Ramana.Michael B writes: I didn't use the name "Rajneesh" or"Ramana"

in this thread. You must be thinking ofsomeone else.Warmest

regards,michael

Hey Michael,

I was simply responding to this message of yours.

You sent it on Thursday, 22nd April, at 11:06 PM

You addressed this message to Warwick and Sam,

and the discussion that Sam and I were having was about Rajneesh

Dear Warwick, Sam and all,There is nothing phony. No one is phony.

Nothingwhatsoever exists except the ONE.But in relative terms, I once

came under the influenceof a spiritual teacher who was later greatly

debunked,sued multiple times and mostly discredited. One timethis

spiritual teacher had one of my friends kidnappedand placed under a

type of "house arrest". Iconfronted the teacher and my friend was

released.So this "spiritual teacher" was a bit of a scoundrel;but so

what. I benefitted greatly from practicing thedisciplines that this

person taught. After all, theteachings of most of these people are

very similar. Mostly all of these people teach a variation of theYoga

classics - Raja Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga,and or Karma Yoga. For

the most part there is nothingnew in what they teach. But, if the

disciple placesan emphasis on worshipping the "scoundrel" rather

thanpracticing the teachings, they may find themselves tobe

disappointed in the end.In the words of Sri Ramakrishna, taken from

theGosperl of Sri Ramakrishna, page 424:..."Though my guru visits the

tavern, still to me heis the holy Nityananda."All is SELF. What is

there to accept and what isthere to reject?Shanti, shanti,

shantihiiimichael> > >

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma LinksTo visit your group

on the web, go to:/ To

from this group, send an email

to: Your use of

Groups is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Dear Warwick

in my experience (about 25 years) with different Masters, Avatars, Gurus, Teachers

i have learned that there is nothing to gain in belittle anybody,

it just comes back to us, and it hurts.

Reality is much more complex than what we believe

and our vison is always partial.

( we know often only the partial version of the poor wounded disciple,

that for sure is sincerely wounded in his/her expectations)

but do we really know what is design of the Whole?)

It is our idea of what is right and wrong that creates

right and wrong people.

Please be careful with your judgement,

'perfection' , as the mind imagines, is not of this world

what is is and it is perfect as it is,

even the so called imperfection is perfect

in the context of the Whole

and this perfection is a mystery that is revealed

only when total acceptance is abiding.

in love

marifa

-

Warwick Wakefield

Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:56 AM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hi adi_shakti

the writings of some of the Sufi mystics are undoubtedly wonderful. I

have do not wish to belittle them in any way; in fact I cannot praise

them highly enough.

And I am quite prepared to accept that the practices of Tantra, at

some stage in history, were indeed doorways to a universal love.

But surely you are aware that a host of charlatans have taken the word

Tantra and used it as a cover for the sale of their spiritual

snake-oil.

Think of "Bhagwan" Shree Rajneesh, who later re-invented himself as "Osho".

He used to call himself a "Tantric" master. In fact, he was nothing

more than a master con-artist. There were orgies all over the ashram,

but meditative sex was very rare.

And then Barry Long in Australia styled himself "the guru of love".

A friend of mine had an affair, a sexual fling, with Bazza Long before he re-invented himself.

At that stage he was trying to convey the impression that he was

something of a saint, that he'd transcended sex and all the other

nasty practices that held ordinary folk in bondage. So he said to my

friend, "You mustn't tell anyone about our affair; it will bring you

dreadful karma if you tell anyone."

I think that it is a good idea to give a very wide berth to anyone who

claims to be a "Tantric teacher", or a "love guru".

There are more hucksters peddling spiritual secrets and spiritual

panaceas than there are corrupt politicians. A walk through the

spiritual supermarket makes one consider politics to be the

endeavours of sincere and high-minded men and women working

selflessly for the greater good of their communities.

I am totally committed to the spiritual search; it is the endeavour of

endeavours. But the field is full of phonies, and anyone who exposes

the fraudulence of any such is doing the whole world a favour.

Love

-

adi_shakthi16

Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:25 PM

Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

thank you warwick! You write and quite understandably Very few modern

Westerners have much time for the idea that sexual deprivation is a

prerequisite for understanding, and merging with, the divine.yes! in

hinduism , we have 'tantra' --- in one path of tantra ( the vamachara

marga) , there is no denial of 'sex' ... IN fact, you use maithuna

("sexual intercourse") as one of the sadhanas to ranscend the mundane

to reach the sublime... but the path has many pitfalls and is not

recommended for dvotees in the mode of pashu bhava ( or tamasic mode

of ignorance) from bhogha(material enjoyment) one goes to yoga (

union with the divine) Do not let 'sex' control you ! you control

sex! Turn the small love for your partner into the big love for the

universe ! you comment and rather correctly Today, many are in love

with the endeavour to know their true nature; very few have any

interest in being "saints".what is the true nature !!! we are all

buddhas! only buddha knew it and we are all struggling to know it!

**********************************************************************rabia

post was specially meant for Michael! he wanted to learn about this

saint! love

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

Hi Marifa

You say

Reality is much more complex than what we believe

and our vision is always partial.

How do you know that, Marifa?

When you say "more complex than what we believe",

do you mean " more complex than what Warwick believes"

or do you mean "More complex than what Marifa believes?"

Obviously you don't mean "more complex than what Marifa believes"

because the statement is being made by Marifa.

In other words, you are going to bat for the Arch-fraudster, Rajneesh, under cover of

particularly sanctimonious platitudes, delivered from a great height.

Well, even though you place yourself at a great height

with your twenty-five years with this teacher and that

I don't feel any need to look up to you, Marifa.

I feel no need to look up and no need to look down.

If you say something that seems reasonable, and resonates, I will take notice.

If you attempt to impress me with spiritual platitudes you are wasting your time.

Here, Marifa, you are wasting your time.

You think I have never heard these platitudes before?

You think I have never encountered the spiritual vision, from which

the platitudes have been constructed?

Marifa, if you will allow me to say so, you are being very confused.

>From a certain viewpoint, everything is God and everything is wonderful.

>From that viewpoint, Avocado sauce is wonderful and you eat it.

>From that viewpoint, crap is wonderful and you flush it down the toilet.

You don't eat crap.

Accepting Rajneesh as a great spiritual master is eating crap.

Accepting Rajneesh as a great spiritual conman is recognizing the great need for conmen,

(just as there is a great need for crapping,)

at certain times and places, and then flushing them down the toilet.

Anyway, why are so many here so eager to come to the defence of the spiritual conman

who did more than anyone else to derail the interest in spiritual matters

that arose spontaneously in the sixties and seventies?

And why are you being so slimy about it?

Why don't you just come out and say, "I agree with Rajneesh."

If you were really coming from the viewpoint that all is great

you would be saying things like, "Oh Warwick, how great that you make these fearless

attacks on revered figures! I personally suffer when you do it, but

the workings of the Divine are mysterious,

and your fearless wielding of the sword is a spectacular part of the Divine Drama."

I do not believe for a second that it is your actual experience

that All is God, All is Divine, All is perfect as it is.

It is obvious that you have heard about it and you have adopted it as a theory,

and you are trying to hit me over the head with your misunderstood theory.

Crazy!

You have no idea what a pathetic thing this is, to take up a theory

and pretend that it is your actual experience.

I know, because I have fallen into that trap untold times.

I have made that mistake often enough that now I can spot it a mile away.

I can smell it, too.

It smells just like crap.

Have a great day

cheers

Warwick

-

Emanuele De Benedetti

Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:19 AM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Dear Warwick

in my experience (about 25 years) with different Masters, Avatars, Gurus, Teachers

i have learned that there is nothing to gain in belittle anybody,

it just comes back to us, and it hurts.

Reality is much more complex than what we believe

and our vison is always partial.

( we know often only the partial version of the poor wounded disciple,

that for sure is sincerely wounded in his/her expectations)

but do we really know what is design of the Whole?)

It is our idea of what is right and wrong that creates

right and wrong people.

Please be careful with your judgement,

'perfection' , as the mind imagines, is not of this world

what is is and it is perfect as it is,

even the so called imperfection is perfect

in the context of the Whole

and this perfection is a mystery that is revealed

only when total acceptance is abiding.

in love

marifa

[Guest guest]

Dear Marifa,

 

--- Emanuele De Benedetti <e.debenedetti

wrote:

SNIP

> It is our idea of what is right and wrong that

> creates

> right and wrong people.

>

> Please be careful with your judgement,

> 'perfection' , as the mind imagines, is not of this

> world

> what is is and it is perfect as it is,

> even the so called imperfection is perfect

> in the context of the Whole

> and this perfection is a mystery that is revealed

> only when total acceptance is abiding.

 

SNIP

 

Thank you for your words of wisdom. IT is as you say.

 

Warmest regards to all,

 

michael

[Guest guest]

Hi Warwick,

you say :

>And why are you being so slimy about it?

>Why don't you just come out and say, "I agree with Rajneesh."

I do not 'agree' with Rajneesh, I just love him,

and I would love him even if he had killed somebody.

(he went very close to that at the Ranch!)

A mother loves his son unconditionally

a son loves his mother, his father unconditionally,

if real love is there,

even when they don't love him.

My open Heart is what matters not what others do or don't do.

Marifa

-

Warwick Wakefield

Saturday, April 24, 2004 4:28 AM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Hi Marifa

You say Reality is much more complex than what we believe

and our vision is always partial.

How do you know that, Marifa?

When you say "more complex than what we believe",

do you mean " more complex than what Warwick believes"

or do you mean "More complex than what Marifa believes?"

Obviously you don't mean "more complex than what Marifa believes"

because the statement is being made by Marifa.

In other words, you are going to bat for the Arch-fraudster, Rajneesh, under cover of

particularly sanctimonious platitudes, delivered from a great height.

Well, even though you place yourself at a great height

with your twenty-five years with this teacher and that

I don't feel any need to look up to you, Marifa.

I feel no need to look up and no need to look down.

If you say something that seems reasonable, and resonates, I will take notice.

If you attempt to impress me with spiritual platitudes you are wasting your time.

Here, Marifa, you are wasting your time.

You think I have never heard these platitudes before?

You think I have never encountered the spiritual vision, from which

the platitudes have been constructed?

Marifa, if you will allow me to say so, you are being very confused.

>From a certain viewpoint, everything is God and everything is wonderful.

>From that viewpoint, Avocado sauce is wonderful and you eat it.

>From that viewpoint, crap is wonderful and you flush it down the toilet.

You don't eat crap.

Accepting Rajneesh as a great spiritual master is eating crap.

Accepting Rajneesh as a great spiritual conman is recognizing the great need for conmen,

(just as there is a great need for crapping,)

at certain times and places, and then flushing them down the toilet.

Anyway, why are so many here so eager to come to the defence of the spiritual conman

who did more than anyone else to derail the interest in spiritual matters

that arose spontaneously in the sixties and seventies?

And why are you being so slimy about it?

Why don't you just come out and say, "I agree with Rajneesh."

If you were really coming from the viewpoint that all is great

you would be saying things like, "Oh Warwick, how great that you make these fearless

attacks on revered figures! I personally suffer when you do it, but

the workings of the Divine are mysterious,

and your fearless wielding of the sword is a spectacular part of the Divine Drama."

I do not believe for a second that it is your actual experience

that All is God, All is Divine, All is perfect as it is.

It is obvious that you have heard about it and you have adopted it as a theory,

and you are trying to hit me over the head with your misunderstood theory.

Crazy!

You have no idea what a pathetic thing this is, to take up a theory

and pretend that it is your actual experience.

I know, because I have fallen into that trap untold times.

I have made that mistake often enough that now I can spot it a mile away.

I can smell it, too.

It smells just like crap.

Have a great day

cheers

Warwick

-

Emanuele De Benedetti

Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:19 AM

Re: Re: Rabi'a Basri - the Mystic - a sufi saint !

Dear Warwick

in my experience (about 25 years) with different Masters, Avatars, Gurus, Teachers

i have learned that there is nothing to gain in belittle anybody,

it just comes back to us, and it hurts.

Reality is much more complex than what we believe

and our vison is always partial.

( we know often only the partial version of the poor wounded disciple,

that for sure is sincerely wounded in his/her expectations)

but do we really know what is design of the Whole?)

It is our idea of what is right and wrong that creates

right and wrong people.

Please be careful with your judgement,

'perfection' , as the mind imagines, is not of this world

what is is and it is perfect as it is,

even the so called imperfection is perfect

in the context of the Whole

and this perfection is a mystery that is revealed

only when total acceptance is abiding.

in love

marifa

/join

"Love itself

is the actual form of God."Sri RamanaIn "Letters from Sri

Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma